Calculate LED Strip Voltage Drop With 💡QuinLED💡: You'll Be Surprised How Many Wires You Need!
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- čas přidán 3. 07. 2024
- Power injection can be the most frustrating thing about addressable LEDs, especially with 5v. This video guide will perfectly explain to you why this is happening and how to calculate everything for your setup so that you know it'll run perfectly and without limits!
Make sure to check out the dedicated article to go with this video: quinled.info/the-ultimate-led...
0:00 - Video Introduction
1:48 - Theory Available controllers
2:50 - Theory Real-World power usage sheet
6:25 - Theory How much can a single injection point handle
11:00 - The scenarios and rules
13:25 - Scenario 1 - 5v ws2812b, how much power?
15:10 - How many injection points?
16:05 - Power per injection point
18:50 - Length per injection point
19:40 - Calculating voltage drop per point
21:00 - How is POE different?
22:05 - 10% max drop rule
23:28 - 8AWG is huge and a problem
26:50 - Calculate your fuses
28:43 - Scenario 2 - 12v ws2815
28:50 - What makes ws2815 special?
37:00 - Injection points
40:00 - Alternative option for scenario 2
49:40 - Scenario 3 - 24v ws2811 720LEDs/m COB strip
51:20 - How much power?
52:30 - How many power injections do we need?
53:05 - Scenario 3 - Cheat mode, bare minimum calculation!
56:40 - Scenario 3 - Ultra mode! All 100% white!
1:01:54 - Do I need multiple data connections?
1:07:52 - 249R vs 33R resistor mode
1:09:15 - End summary
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If you still have any questions, let me know in the comments or join the Intermittent Technology Discord server here: / discord
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My custom Addressable LED controllers:
✨ dig2go dedicated website: dig2go.info
✨ QuinLED-Dig-Uno Pre-Assembled: quinled.info/pre-assembled-qu...
✨ QuinLED-Dig-Quad Pre-Assembled: quinled.info/pre-assembled-qu...
✨ QuinLED-Dig-Octa System: quinled.info/quinled-dig-octa/
✨ QuinLED-Data-Booster(-Maxi): quinled.info/quinled-data-boo...
✨ Addressable LED strip guide: quinled.info/2019/06/03/what-...
✨ Power supply buying guide: quinled.info/power-supplies-d...
✨ QuinLED-Dig-Octa Power Supply recommendations: quinled.info/quinled-dig-octa...
✨ Tools and Equipment used page: quinled.info/2018/10/01/tools...
📚 Real-World Addressable LED power sheets: quinled.info/2020/03/12/digit...
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Intro&Outro&During video
TheFatRat - Xenogenesis
( • TheFatRat - Xenogenesi... ) - Jak na to + styl
This is the best video you have made for beginners. I was really overwhelmed when I got my Dig Quad but now I feel a lot more confident.
Long overdue to have information on how to calculate and inject power the correct way
70 minute video, lifetime of problem solving in LED installations :D
What a complete, super detailed explanation of just about everything needed to get up and going. Thank you so much, extremely helpful. Have a great day.
The missing link has been released: A decent video to refer to when people start to use led strips. Thanks!
Fantastic explanations, really helpful for people like me who are just getting in to LED controlling. Thank you, keep the videos coming.
Purchased the DigiQuad for my 1st ever WLED home project and so far I am very happy. The Quad was surprisingly easy to setup and so far I have used it to test each 15 foot section of 5volt 60leds/meter as I complete them. When done I’ll have 4 channels of sound reactive fun in the basement playroom.
one of the best tutorials i have ever saw for adressable LED's . Thanks !
YES YES YYEEEESSSS! This filled in so many questions I was trying to research (Im new to all this just a few days now).
I watched this now several times today, replaying many sections till it sunk in.
I'll share my initial design with the discord to have someone double check my math.
Thanks again!
This is exactly what I needed!
I'm SO GLAD that you're covering wire guage (diameter)! Seems that so many people just don't get that!
Also i like the fact that you even mentioned using fuses! I've seen so many comments where ppl just burn their chips up, because they only rely on powering from one point. Like on Amazon, these dimwits complain that the 2d arrays are "obvious low quality" because they get hot quickly and then burn up the whole matrix.
They're unable to utilize their brain to figure out something simple like injecting amps elsewhere.
Hopefully, you've given some ppl something to actually think about.
But, i doubt those types would sit through all the talking, anyway.
Oh, well.
Great video, anyway!
What detail! I am a beginner beginner and I got it! Thank you so much. Always love your teaching. You do put everything detailed.
That's very awesome to hear, makes it very much worth doing it, thank you! :D
Great timing! I needed this, thanks!
What can i say...
Thx for all your time, and Big THANK YOU for helping me finally understand everything about led strips...❤
Great Video! This really educates us over all LED power aspects. Thank you!
Great video …hits all the info points…thanks again.
Very informative. Thanks Quindor
This was an incredibly useful video. I have a much better understanding of how to select parts for my builds now, and I'll definitely hop on the discord prior to embarking on any really significant projects.
Thanks for the video. I know there is a lot more time involved making the video than what the video length shows 😁👍🏻.
This is a great video, easy to understand power injection.
simply excellent work! thanks for sharing, I learned a lot!
Always great explanations
This is a great video! Thanks for all the information!
Very nice and helpful guide!
Thank you for such a comprehensive explanation based of real world numbers. I almost feel that I have enough information to be dangerous.....
This guy is the best…hope he makes a dig uno mini one day so we can run 24v cob leds & replace all the govee projects & put the dig uno mini in the cutout area where the govee controllers are.
amazing video on the breakdown, thank you for uploading
Thank you. this video is extremely helpful and you explained everything very well
Awesome video, great explanations!
keep it going xD
Great video, thanks!
I'd love a follow up on power via 12/24/48v & buck converters at the point of injections or using multiple 5v power supplies and what that means for the common ground connection
So for multiple power supplies, it's easy, make sure positive wires never connect together without proper balancing circuits (since they are not common, read do not connect them). The negative connection must always be connected together so the negative wires all have the same potential. It doesn't matter exactly where these are connected, but I would suggest as close as possible. Note that the potential can change over length so it might be required to add another small bridge down the line for long wires
for the buck converter setup: quinled.info/24v-power-distribution-for-5v-leds/ there is an article (and video's) for that :)
Thanks so much for the video! This really solved a lot of questions for me. Only part i missed was when and why to use capacitors, which was advised by the calculator on the wled page it self next to the fuses and resistor advice they gave
Thank you for the video. I am new in these kind of projects and this help me a lot with preparing the first project. Maybe bit project for the first one, but want to setup some lightning in the corner of the wall and ceiling, all across the room, which is like 16meters. With the explaiantion I can prepare myself much more! buy the right stuff at once (hopefully). Thanks again!
Superb!
Exactly Thank you
You are the boss !! 💪
Really cool men thank you for all the info.
Bastante extenso el video pero con mucha información valiosa. Muchas gracias.
Perfect!
Love this information, thank you so much! I balk at 10min videos where people tell you two interesting things that could've taken them 15 seconds to explain, but this is lots of gold, including real world examples, too. I always need those to fully understand.
It'd be really cool to see what actually happens when you don't have enough power in the middle, or when the FPS gets low. I do understand all the concepts, and your descriptions are great!
It definitely seems common but I think the end results makes it all worth it
Thanks!
Thank you! Much appreciated!
Thank you very much... your videos help me a lot. I am completely new to the LED topic and your videos (especially this one) take away the headache I have with this topic. My longest shadow gap is 19m and the scenario shown here hits the nail on the head. Thanks for the help and keep it up.
Very nice to read, hopefully it helps you get the setup that's right and great for you! :D
THANK YOU
This hour long video helped me out A LOT!!! So thank you for that.
I just have a question about the long Data+GND wire. What AWG wire would you use in your scenario @49:00 for that Data+GND?
I'm just missing one thing: we have two kind of wires, power wires (positive+gnd) and data wires (data+gnd). If I understood correctly power wires must have a certain gauge in order to carry enough amps, but as data wires don't carry amps they can be i.e 22 awg cable or do they have to be the same gauge as the power cables? In that case. Which is the minimum awg in order to carry the data? (I think it also depends on the cable length because of the voltage drop) Thank you for this great video!
Dats is very low current, like 8mA or so so generally it's size shouldn't matter too much in regards to voltage drop, same with the GND run with it. In some testing a larger diameter cable did get the data a bit further but I generally use what's available and that varies from 22AWG to max 18AWG sometimes.
Love your video... so detailed and explained very well. I'm just a very very inexperienced with LEDs... Feel like a 6th grader in a trig class when I was headed to Algebra 1.
So would you suggest just trial and error and see what does or doesn't work? I'm just starting on white... no colors just simple .. ha ha right..
anyone out there please chime in if you can.... Dimmable... that is where I can't seem to find info... does that mean the actual LED strips need to be? the Power supply needs to be... or can it all work on a dimmer switch that will supply the power? Back to trial and error.. one more... would it be better to get 2 or maybe 3 separate power supplies or one beefy one and run one long wire where needed? I could do either but I know what I don't know..
I'll keep looking and testing and the scary part is after watching this.... My home will look like a concert venue.. Thanks for your experience and sharing it...
top top top!
Hi, Can you teach what kind of led stripe or controller used at your back, it's really amazing, i love it.
That's a Dig-Quad with 4x pieces of 12v ws2815 with 144LEDs/m and 72 LEDs long running on 4 data channels.
תודה!
Amazing video! I bought several dig uno’s to run in my home and my office, it is incredibly fun 😊
Thank you for these informative videos, really make the community feel comfortable doing these projects without fear of burning out homes 🤣
Thank you so much and awesome to hear, glad it helped you!
Good video, to get my head clear. Right 5 volts power and controls at start with 15 metre of cable then to ws2812 strips (5 meter) what size cable do I need?
Can you give me calculations please.
Would cat 6 or 6 core alarm cable good enough for 15 mtr cable run?
What a great video, thank you! How does it work with LED Pixels? I see you have those listed in the power table sheet although sting length is not listed and I see strings come in different lengths. I assume we would need to take into account the length of the string itself for voltage drop, no? Thank you again.
I lost track of how many "ohhhh that's how that works"/"ah ha!" moments I experienced watching this lol
Glad to hear it! There is so much half or just wrong information out there 😅. For little projects it's hook it up and it'll work, but for more serious projects, calculate the hell out of it. 🤣
@@IntermitTech I'm trying to design some set pieces so reliability is crucial and safety is a must. I love the fused injection 😍
Hello, Thank you for the video. I have a question "What is class 1 and class 2 powersupply? If i am using the class 1 powersupply then how do i know that i am following the wiring method requirements of class 1 circuit.
Any thoughts on WS2818?
Hi. Thanks for you video! 🎉
I have a dummy question, maybe because my lack of knowledge, why I can use only one injection ? I mean, 3 strips linked with 60led per meter, why can’t use a power supply with 5v/20A in front only ?
I have a question about running a data wire with ground next to it (1:08:57). Should the ground be connected to the LED strip or can the ground wire not be connected to anything?
It would be recommended to connect that GND where you also connect the data. That way GND is as much the same all over the system.
54:50 cant say I know the real reason why but I do notice that a period looks like a "point" while a comma does not. So saying "7 point 5" just makes sense to me be to "7 . 5".
what about parallel ?I want to have one that goes left and another right
- 1 meter RGBWH LED strip: 24V 16W 5050 60 SMD
- 2 meter RGBWH LED strip: 24V 32W 5050 120 SMD
Will a power suply of 24V 60W 2.5A do the trick? Will I need injection for the 2 meter strip ?
Can you give me jsut the formula I will figure it out.
When running paraller do I add the V, or the A? I need some help. Thank you!
what is the maximum fuse i can put in the Dig Quad? what can the board handel
Can I confirm, 20m 12v ws2815. 3 points of injection front 4amp, middle 8amp, end 4amp. OR front 2amps, 1st middle 4amps, 2nd middle 4amps, 3rd middle 4amps, end 2amps.
Thanks
Fantastic - I'm binging all of your videos and keeping lots of notes. I'll send a layout over to discord soon, but ultimately my setup is extremely similar to Scenario 3.
Quick noob question - do the same wire gauge rules apply for the data cable?
They do not since the data cable carries almost no current. Glad you are enjoying the videos!
i Bought the 24v ws2811 720LEDs/m COB strip when i connect it to esp32 and set to solid it keeps changing the brightness output randomly what do i do?
Do you have a proper controller or just the ESP32? If just the ESP32 you'll likely need a level-shifter and such.
Muchas gracias por las explicaciones, es un tema muy interesante, siempre se sacan ideas. Yo utilizo Buck-DC Converter, de 24v a 5v, tramos de 50 pixel, apenas 1.5 A máximo en 24V, y utilizo cable UTP AWG24 3 a 3, y dos sobrantes para datos, y me funciona genial y económico. Puede hacer un vídeo de la mejor forma de usar DC-DC 24-5V converter? Muchas gracias!!!
I think your talking about using 24v to 5v buck converters, I did a series on that in the past, check here: quinled.info/24v-power-distribution-for-5v-leds/
@@IntermitTech Gracias, ahora mismo lo veo.
I'm from the US and I don't understand the comma Or period Difference as well. We use The comma for thousands separation and period for dollars/cents basically fractions of what values. so 5 divided by 2 would be 2.5 with the .5 representing a half value. Although with a 10 based measuring system metric I could see where that might be easier to use the comma.
Yeah here in the EU it's the other way around. Thousands are noted with a dot and a fraction of a number with a comma so the US system makes no sense to us. Same with metric and imperial, etc.. It is what it is....
@@IntermitTech I was wondering if the dot was used, wow totally reversed. Don't know whether it would've made understanding math easier for me or not had a hard time understanding how things changed when numbers were below the divide (,.). There's definitely a different understanding of maths across the pond.
53:20 I have a question for Scenario 3: you said that in the cheat mode it needs 7,5 amps and that a middle injection would deliver 8 amps. Why can't we just supply the power in the middle of the 20 meter (so 10 meters from each end) and just run a 10-meter data wire to the beginning of the strip??
Alternatively , could we run 2 different data signals from the middle going outwards to both 10 meter strips and be just fine? In that way, we would not power 1x 20m but 2x 10m ws2811 and from your video I think the math would be just fine. Please if someone knows the answer i would be thrilled to learn. :)
The essence of my question would be: Can we run 20 meters without any injections? If so, I would try a project using your DigOcta for 4x 20m (but only 1 octa in the middle treating it more like 8x 10m.) According to the math, it would need a (4x 180w = 720w) 800w 24v power supply. Any recommendations?
The essence of my question would be: Can we run 20 meters without any injections? If so, I would try a project using your DigOcta for 4x 20m (but only 1 octa in the middle treating it more like 8x 10m.) According to the math, it would need a (4x 180w = 720w) 800w 24v power supply. Any recommendations?
First thanks for the content, great as usual, but I got 2 questions if you have time.
1st question - The 10% voltage drop makes sence, but then I have a question could we inject 5.5V or 6V and acount for the voltage drop to have the 5V at the end? I know it depends on the power draw but if the LED's can handle it... why not.
2nd question - how well does LED strips handle getting power injection from seperate power supplies? If feasible would the power injection need to be isolated?
So both questions are a bit complex.
1. Don't feed in a higher voltage then say 5.2v maybe 5.3v. The ws2812b chips say in their datasheet the absolute maximum is 5.5v so you don't want to be too close to that (Also in regards to data signal and such voltages need to be about the same). But the main reason is that say you measure voltage and set all LEDs to RGB white 50% and then adjust the voltage on the power supply to match exactly 5.1v at the LEDs, great voltage drop solved! Yes, but now when there is less current draw (other pattern, not all LEDs lit, etc.) the voltage suddenly shoots up because the Amps are much lower and thus the voltage isn't being dropped anymore like before. So as I started, 5.2v maybe 5.3v is ok but don't go higher then that (measured *without* load) or the transient nature of the LEDs (very varying power demand) can suddenly spike voltage and kill them.
2. So officially you shouldn't use multiple power supplies unless you make sure their positives can never meet. So if you do use 2, you'll need a break in the positive line somewhere. Data and GND should be connected between the two and then everything will work as normal.
Unofficially it's a bit more complex, if you set it up properly with fuses, etc. etc. it can be done most of the time. This is because you aren't connecting 2 power supplies in parallel next to each other but through a lot of LED strip which has a relatively high resistance. This means power will automatically "balance" in that sense and that even when one PSU would suddenly fail/disappear the other won't get over asked instantly because the resistance on the strip will prevent a massive current draw (As explained in this video). So often this can work but make sure hardware protections are in place (such as fuses). Also some power supplies might start to act weird if something else on the same line is regulating the voltage all of a sudden. Most work with feedback circuits with which they adjust their output but suddenly there is something else coming in too. I've done tests and as said, generally this works and can actually be fairly safe (if done properly and with lots of LED strip in between) but it's certainly still frowned upon in that sense.
@@IntermitTech Thanks for the detailed answer, I understood it very well.
Again thanks for the content
Amazing video I learned a lot! I have a dumb question which might be obvious to most - you mentioned we should only inject 4A max at front and end, and 8A in the middle. How do we ensure we supply the current in such way? Or am I not understanding it correctly, and when you power inject the strip automatically draws 8A in the middle for example?
The max draw is regulated by the copper on the strip or rather its resistance. At around 4A most generic strips copper just can't support more current and starts dropping voltage because of the resistance instead. So it basically auto regulates itself that way, because of the resistance a single point will only take in so much while a point further away can still draw in power. That way, by spreading out the injection points over multiple injections on the strip, you can saturate everything to the max it can draw.
What if I want to inject every meter of a 25 meter run. Will there be any harm?
new to all this. does the ground wire need to be the same gauge as the power wire. Ie can I run the ground and data on a joined double wire and the power wire on a single stand. I'm looking at the 20m 12V, powersupply on the end. Thanks
Yes, positive and negative always has to be the same diameter otherwise the lowest value will proceed to dictate the maximum.
i got btf lighting 630 leds/m 2811 fcob strip. Project length would be 17 meters exactly. Strip End at 17 meters will loop around to initial digquad. do i need to power inject at the end? I am using 24v 5 Amp power supply. And what about data injection for this scenario? How many leds should i enter in WLED for the above strip{each zone is 7cm apart}
Did you follow the video and the 24v example? It should be able to tell you all these things. :)
Great video. I have been using 16AWG to power both ends of a WS2811 4m 50 LED string but had never worked out the proper current needs. I now know how to calculate it properly.
Question: If we power the last 5m strip that takes 5V at 7A and you can only inject 4A at one end, won't that make the last few LEDs not be as bright or the correct color ? We might be injecting the correct amount of Amps to the 20m of LEDs but we may not have it distributed equally along the length of the last strip if we have a 4A injection limit. If each strip takes 7 Amps to properly light all LEDs to the correct color and brightness but you only inject the last strip at one end with whatever remains of the 8A from the injection point. Won't this create a shortage of current and voltage to properly light the strip ?
Thnx! About your question, yes in the 5v example during the video I missed that the end also needed a connection. I did add it in all the diagrams and the downloadable document! But if you want to run it at the amount power the strip can take (so not limited) for single colors and effects you effectively need about 6Amps which a single injection can't supply so indeed it would look more dim then without the injection.
So yup, all correct! I did add some overlays in the video and adjusted the document and diagrams as mentioned, but yeah, even I trip up sometimes. ;)
@@IntermitTechThanks. :-) I will check out the downloadable document. I am using the calculator now for my new project of LED on the fenceposts.
Silly question, I'm running 3x 5m 12v 2815 60led/m via Dig quad (powered by 2x 30cm 12 awg into 350w PS & a 5v relay) .. I've hooked up 14awg for front (3.5m), middle (10M) and End (7.5m) power injection... For the middle injection do I inject to both strips (thus 4 wires).. Had to relocate PS & Dig Quad out of the room due to excessive fan noise..
Yes for the middle injection it's best to use the available extra injection wires from both strips since that gives you "more copper" into the strips basically. If you all inject it at a single point it should in theory still work but then it will also have to run through the JST connectors in between the strip and that will already cause some limiting right there.
Regarding PSU, you could for instance get a UHP-350-12 those will be perfectly silent. But if moving it out of the room does it too, hey, that's certainly cheaper!
@@IntermitTech thanks for the reply.. yes considered the UHP-350-12 but had just spent £60 on the old ps.. just didnt expect it to be so loud and comping on intermittently when off (hence added the relay)
I have a serious lingering question, but first of all I want to say that I love your channel, videos and teachings. Since I'm an old fart, I watch your vids over and over again to remember them but, I still can't find a clear answer to an important question I have about my current project; which is - When calculating all the wire size needs for each of the injection points to an LED run, Do I add the common distance between the Digi-Quad Controller/Power Panel, lets say is 15ft distance, to each of the injection point length I need to use to calculate the wire sizes?
I think I figured it out from your video... the Calculation from front of strip you said was 1meter away from controller... then I think you said middle 2 was 11 meters from controller... you didn't add any "length of strip" you were connecting to... correct?
@bobking682 yes that would be correct I think, generally I do build in 1 extra meter into the calculations for the fact the wire from your power supply also matters. Although, if you hook it up to a Dig-Quad or Dig-Octa you can at least make those multiple very thick wires so they almost don't drop any current anymore and then calculating just the strip or wire from the board, is fine.
Sometimes these calculators are not as accruate as what they may appear. Too many people really over complicate this issue.
But truth is, 5V strips do suffer voltage drops, but the LED's will be happy at even 15% voltage drop, but you have to remember that voltage drop would only be if you are drawing the MAXIMUM current. Under most situations you will not be running at even half the power. A strip rated at maximum 8 amps, you can calculate wire at 4amps in reality for 99.9% of the effects. Even if you use solid white using RGB, which is bad, you can use WLED to limit to current to 4Amps, and all will be good.
That would be true if we weren't calculating nominal power usage already and using those values.
I agree that RGB white 100% is totally useless and we shouldn't use that to calculate, but I explain this very clearly in the video and also why we are using the values as I did in the video, maybe you didn't catch that part?
Overcomplicating things is not the same as explaining the actual physics and principles. Personally I would prefer overengineering vs the approach "it works so whatever".. the datasheet specs suggest +-10% 5V, so saying "it will work with 15% drop" means the install is running out of specification. There is no way around that. Quindor's way of teaching is "use the right way the first time, save on issues later". You don't want to know how many people join the discord servers trying to replicate something that was not done right, and are surprised about the results when it was actually done right.
The brightness limiter in WLED is a good tool, but what happens if that limiter is changed in the future, or disabled all together?
Simple conclusion, with all electrical installs, either low voltage, mains voltage or high voltage, just do it right from the start to not have problems in the future
What about the data line for a 20m run?
Up to 5m generally works fine, 10m can be difficult already and longer then that for sure. Then I'd recommend taking a look at one of my Diff products, I recently introduced the Diff-Solo!
I want to use 5V RGBW Adressible LEDs at full 100% White as film Diffuser Light at the Seeling as Matrix of 2 x 2,5 Meters with 50m of 60/m RGBW LED Strip. Im still not sure if I need to get really thick cables to even consider doing this 😅
I need to rewatch this video multiple times till I get it, but if I put every 1-2 meters an injection of 8 amps this will probably be enough right? 😅
Poh, that's an ambitious project. For 50m you are going to run out of LEDs you can address pretty quickly too, it's not advised to exceed about 2000 to 2500 per ESP32! 3000 is still doable though but you'll get a bit lower framerate.
Cabling wise yes 5v needs a lot of wiring, you can calculate how much you require with the values in the real world power sheet as pointed out in my video. Luckily it being a matrix they should also be fairly easy to hide. And since distance should be fairly low, diameter should still be manageable too.
@@IntermitTech Good that we buyed 4 ESP32 Boards. So we can Sync them in WLED without loosing too much framerate.
The only thing I worried is that the cables start to glow.
Is it that only the first wire of the power supply needs to be really thick and every injection point every 1-2m can be connected with thinner wires, because more then 8 Amps will never go through these wires? 😅
Hi, I'm using esp8266 to run my ws2812b 5metre 60led per metre strip. Esp is connected to 1amp adaptor via usb port. Can I still inject 4amp at the start and end of the strip? Does it harm the esp?
Not advisable, you either need to use the same adapter or have a break on the positive side so that the two positives never meet basically.
@@IntermitTech what's the best configuration you suggest for this setup ?
Getting a power supply that can supply what you need or a board that can do 5v 3A such as my dig2go and then run power limited which can be ok for 5m depending on your wishes. Lower then that though can make it look bad and choppy.
Superb video, extremely helpful, thank you so much! One question remains for me, however: You said that it's a good idea when running a long line for an additional data connection to also have a ground wire alongside, but you didn't explain why pairing the data with ground is necessary. Aren't all the power injection points taking care of the "ground injection" already? Is the reason for the alongside ground to prevent data degradation somehow, and if so, how does this work? Thanks!
Ah yes that's correct, see this article : quinled.info/data-signal-cable-conditioning/
@@IntermitTech Thanks for the reply! Another helpful article. However, that article only explains the issues _caused by_ ground pairing (and how to address them) as if it were a bad thing to do from the start. It doesn't explain _why_ you would _want_ to do it at all. What is the advantage of pairing a ground wire with your data wire? Why not just use a bare data wire and skip the ground?
@Havron it was later identified in testing that generally speaking for linger distances wires having it coupled with GND directly in a 2-wite configuration and paired with a 33R resistor that that scenario was the best possible way for data to reach the furthest. It makes it slightly more immune to outside noise having GND there and using the 33R resistor it has enough energy to go the distance. Since then I also updated all the boards with a resistor switcher function to get the best adapted signal for the type of cabling you are using. The 2023 update part should reflect that, if not, I'll try and write it better! :)
@@IntermitTech Thanks again for the quick reply! Very clear explanation, thank you. Right, so this is very similar to the theory behind coaxial cable: it's all about using a ground shield to accomplish noise rejection over distance. I get it now.
As far as I can tell, neither your article nor video clearly addressed why you might _want_ to pair data and ground over distance-only that, if you do that, you'll have to use the lower resistor value, making it sound like the only reason you'd have to deal with this is if the cables you may happen to need to use (e.g. a prewired Christmas light setup) paired the conductors, in which case of course a post-fix solution is needed. You did mention the transmission line effect and linked to the Wikipedia article, but understanding that requires some real digging and thought on the part of the reader, so it would be most helpful if you could please add a little bit more to your article to explain why it may be desirable to do this intentionally as well. :-)
So for my own setup, I have the advantage that it is two-dimensional, so I can locate power supplies and processors to ideal (or close to ideal) locations, thus avoiding long runs. According to my calculations, the longest distance I should have to send data will be under one meter; specifically, I calculate 70 cm, although this could change. This is a bit more than your rule-of-thumb "anything should work" limit of 50 cm specified in the article, but it's not a _lot_ more, and it is well under the next distance you mention, which is 5 meters.
Do you think that over that distance I can still get away with a separate data line with no resistor at all, or should I go with 249 ohms on the single line? What if practicalities end up requiring me to extend the distance to a full meter? What would your recommendation be?
Up to 2m or so from the experiences I've seen it won't matter much either way so you're good there with either resistor or cabling type. The longer the distance becomes the more those kind of details start to matter basically.
1:00:4:00 why the 42 1000leds at 33 fps sounds for me also pretty smooth when u have in mind that most films etc run at 25 fps
It's different for everyone I guess but especially when blending colore having more steps in there really does help. The film effect at 24fps does play into your brain to generate and fill in the rest of the data though, our eyes can certainly percieve quicker and notice the difference.
I'm one of those guys with a 120Hz monitor for desktop work though since it's just so much smoother.
So yeah, it depends, if you are OK with that FPS for the LEDs, well, then it's no problem to run it that way.
@@IntermitTech ok thx the video helped a lot probaly watch it a few times or some parts of it xD
@thelastengineer8633 awesome, glad to hear it!
This is a great video for a beginner like me. I am still unclear on one part of my setup. I am using WS2811 12V 50LED string lights. I measured and there are 11 LEDs per meter, but I'm not sure how to find the wattage of that on the real world power sheet. Everything there seems to be many more LEDs per meter. I feel like maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. Can anyone help?
The tables are mostly about LED strip. But in the 5v and 12v tables I also have bullet style pixels listed on the right side!
@@IntermitTech Thanks for the response. I did see that column and even saw you had WS2811 listed, but it was for 60 LEDs per meter. Since mine is 11, I was thinking I was doing something wrong in how I was measuring. Is there a way to extrapolate the wattage for 11 LEDs/meter from the data in that table?
Nah, that's more because of the table formatting. I need to clear that up a bit I think, it's for strings with 50 or 100 pixels. The per meter figure doesn't really apply.
@@IntermitTech Ah ok. That makes sense. Thank you!
Interesting that you drop this video soon after Chris Maher posted one. Have you seen his? If so, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, I started working on this one right after the livestream we did about it again so really pure coincidence!
In my opinion his view is a bit over simplified. According to real-world calculations running for instance the rainbow pattern he's limited to max 10% brightness output of the strip! That's quite a lot of power to drop. And that's a real-world example, not some theoretical number. Sure while I agree you certainly don't need to be able to do RGB white 100% or maybe even 50% in all setups, dropping this low will really create issues and disappointment in my opinion.
I mean, again, running lower power is fine, I sell the dig2go which is limited to 5v 3A (like he uses in the video too) also, but I recommend max max 300 LEDs and am very clear about the downsides of that. Still with 300 LEDs I think it's fine for effects and such, but really on the limit, with 900, yeah no.
Few brief other issues. Digital LEDs have 255 values per color. Combine those and you get 16 million options. Now we only have a fraction of the power, this also means a lot less steps and now there are only say 50000 colors available. This will make things look much much worse.
Then there is running 900 LEDs using a single data output, I recommend not going above 600 or you will see visible FPS drop. So instead of your LEDs running at 42FPS (WLED default) it's now say 30FPS, making everything look less smooth, especially combined with the above issue.
So yeah, I think I get what he's trying to say, but in my opinion it's stretching things too far. As this video kind of also shows.
Running your LEDs with less current is fine, but 1/10th is a bit too much. And sure, effects that only turn on some LEDs might look ok, but a lot of others will be really dim and choppy....
@@IntermitTechThanks for your detailed response! You really know your stuff.
@@IntermitTech I appreciate reading this cause I've watch his(Chis Maher) vids and that's how I stumbled to you and your boards!
7:02 The part about not replacing the cable got me confused. I understand that in terms of current injection there is not a significant difference. However, using a stock JST connector of a WS2812b 5m 30 led/m strip, the cables and the connector get worryingly hot at 100% RGB White.
Wouldn't it be wise to replace them for security concerns?
In my testing the JST plugs only start really heating up with 5A through them and become dangerous around 6A. But normally that will never pass through them because the strip can't accept that much from a single point. So I'm not sure what is happening in your case, can you measure current?
@@IntermitTech Unfortunately I can't measure current. The best I can do is to estimate based on power consumption of the whole strip (power supply + esp32 + 150 ws2812b leds)
At 100% RGB White I get 36 W so around 7.2 A. Last 30 leds suffer from voltage drop.
At 75% RGB White I get 26 W so around 5.2 A.
At 50% RGB White I get 20 W so around 4 A.
At 36W the wires and JST plug gets clearly hot.
This strip has a theoretical current consumption of 45W / 9A at 100% RGB white so at 50% it should be around the 4.5A mark (and this matches the estimated current measured). However, (quite unscientifically) I can see an increase in brightness going from 50% to 75% so it makes me believe that it is indeed getting more than the 4 A you measured.
The strip is BTF Lighting ws2812b.
@@IntermitTech Is it possible somehow that 30 led/m strips are able to drive more amp (due to less voltage drop?)
No I don't believe so, the drop happens because of the strip mainly
@@IntermitTech So finally I can now measure current and my strip only pulls 3.65A at 100% max RGB white (while WLED estimates 8.5A). So totally inline with your results. The JST connector still gets hot to touch. It is a bit more than the rated 3A but I'm surprised.
Hello, do u do consultations?
I do not sorry, I try to provide the information so you can do it yourself! If that doesn't work out it would indeed be best to hire someone but all my work already keeps me busy. Good luck!
Why are adressable LED eating so much power, compared to non adressable LEDs ?
They don't really, it's just that they are often 5v so they consume a lot Amps. 100w at 5v is 20Amps while at 24v (which must dumb strip runs at) is only about 4Amps are generally doesn't need any injection. Because of the increased current you need more copper, but the lower voltage is needed to keep it individually addressable. You also have 24v addressable and it needs the same as analog/dumb LED strip. :)
@@IntermitTech thanks, crystal clear. And when using 12 or 24v strip LEDs, there'sna new issue. Managing the esp8266 which accepts only 5v. Oh man I'm becoming crazy !
Well the Dig boards solve that issue for you. But something else is that they become per 3 for 12v or per 6 for 24v addressable, not each LED anymore.
41:40 maby add to ur chart legend that the blue is data i thought it was ur power supply because it was the same colcor and ur legend said green is data got a bit confused untl u said that at 41:40 i had an ah ok so thats the data line
Ah that's a good one! The legend is for the cable colors but the board colors matter too of course, I'll see if I can improve that!
What I got from this video is not so much how to calculate, which one can get, but rather if you want some length beyond, it sounds like a meter or two of LED do NOT use 5v unless you want a super-thick wire. This video needs to be cut down. I want to get FCOB for example and there was another similar COB style, and I know my lengths are 16.4 ft each and then I know the Watts of power they use, and the other can be bought up to 5m so I need to know what other products to buy to power them. I know I need a power supply. Check, ok, so what Watts. My guess is, for me 300 or greater. I found this video something I had to watch twice and I'm still not clear. So I'm going to re-watch and find other sources.
Ok, interesting feedback! It's hard to get everything or the exact right information for everyone in a video in that sense. I get what you are saying that it's long, but it's because I want to explain why and how so you can apply to your own setup, it's not a "get this for that situation" type of video in that sense.
Maybe I'll make one in that style in the future tough, thank you for the feedback!
28mins i the video conclusion not gonna use 5v leds for 15 meters xD gona porbalby go with 12v then because i dont want 6leds per adressable
Hahaha yeah, the amount of Amps are insane, even when calculating with nominal current, not even max possible!
@@IntermitTech yeah thats what i thought too after i saw that
You need to lay out various LED, things people are going to buy, including normal ones, COB and FCOB and then say 'you need a controller, a power supply, connectors, etc. All things you need. Then calculate power need as it is a critical piece of information before getting those other things. I found this video semi-useful. I learned use RGBW 50% to calculate.
The process of explaining can be made easier and simpler.
Thank you SO MUCH for this!!! Legend
Thanks!
Thnx man, appreciate it!