The Jacobs chuck on my pedestal drill is running out 0.5mm (0.020") How to check the run out and correct the problem. Boring a number 2MT setting up the steady.
Stumbled across this while looking at set up and tuning of a cheap drill press. while im not a machinist and never will be my understanding of how it all fits together and functions has been broadened. Thanks fr taking the time to record this.
Had this practically new Chinese mill for years. Used it once as a mill, but tried to use it as an overpriced drill press. I was making threaded inserts at one time. Anyway, last few years I've noticed a big wobble on the drill chuck. I bought a new keyless chuck & arbor, still a noticeable wobble on the drill bits... so this thing sat for some time. After watching your video, I disassembled everything & cleaned & polished. Wobble gone! Thanks for the inspiration!
I work on vintage drill presses. Last week had a machine made in 1941 in the shop, a Delta DP-220, with a bent spindle - 0.005" runout. With the Jacobs 6A chuck it came with, 0.018". It could have been a problem with the taper. Unfortunately I'm a fairly poor machinist. I've accumulated a stock of spare parts, pulled the quill out of the machine and replaced the spindle. The runout at the taper was now reading less than a tenths (!). Played around with a few chucks and settled on a keyless Rohm - indicated 0.0006" TIR at ~1" out. Yes, six tenths. Could hardly believe it. A first in my experience. Scared the crap out of my cat with the victory dance. :)
Felix F , could you point me to info about the DP-220? I have one with poor runout that I would like to improve. I'm a woodworker, not a machinist, so my tolerances aren't terribly challenging. I've hoped to repair this machine for a long time!
Felix F.i have a Meddings MB4 mk3.any suggestions on how to change the gearbox oil as i can find no info regarding drain plug(if it has one)and where to fill?.any info greatly appreciated.
Hi Alan back in the 70s I bought an Ajax bench drill new. It was soon evident that there was lots of runout although on the plate it said "Precision Drill". I contacted the Ajax company who fair play sent an engineer from Manchester to Worcester to look at the problem. He agreed with me and he changed the spindle. It was greatly improved although not precision. The drill had been in storage for the past 23 years and bees had made a nest in the body resulting in massive rusting in many parts. I have just finished restoring the drill and have fitted a VFD with three phase motor from Power Capacitors which I also have on my lathe. One reason for doing this was the annoying vibration coming from the pulley cover with the single phase motor. I did in fact remove this as I couldn't cope with that. Now it runs smoothly with no vibration. The drill looks very similar to yours so I will have to check the runout now. Many thanks for video, it will be a great help.
They sent a guy to look at it?!?!?! Wow. If only customer service was even remotely close that good nowadays. You're lucky to even get a human on the phone now.
According to my thinking this could have been remedied by grinding the end of the chuck arbor, however that will be like treating the symptoms and not the illness! The way you did the repair is the best way I could think of cure the illness as it means other tools in that spindle will not become sick! Your chuck obviously has a through hole in the back so you can easily eject the arbor. Something I will do rather than use wedges should the need arise. Good solution! John, Australia.
The reason for that huge run-out when it's all assembled is bc you've got the run-out from each part adding up and getting larger the farther out from the spindle you get. Best thing to do is adjust the run-out for each part individually and then try to adjust it as a single unit.
Thank you for the video. I believe I have the same problem. Tried several chucks, 2 actual Jacobs units, a 1/2 and a 3/4, all have the same bad runout. I was thinking about doing exactly what you did to repair it. So thanks for the guidance.
A gauge like that is nice to have, but in the case you don't have one and you need to check for runout, a pencil will work. Simply spin up the chuck, take a pencil and just barely make contact with the chuck for a split second or two. Stop the chuck and look at the pencil line, if the mark is all the way around the chuck evenly then you have no runout. If it skips, or doesn't make a mark all the way around, you either have runout or low spots on the chuck... more likely it's runout. Try it and see, I've tested this simple method and it really does work.
Thank you, this is hugely helpful. I have (I think) the same pillar drill (warco 2b12 or similar?) and have a noticeable wobble at end of drill bit. To my crude eyeball it’s OK at arbour and no movement in quill, and the chuck did fall off the taper not long back so I’m hoping it’s just poorly seated. Need some wedges to get the chuck off (it has no access hole) and will then set up a dial gauge on the Jacobs Taper and keep fingers crossed…!
I just tried releasing the taper from one of my Jacobs chucks with no luck, the nut was just being forced out of the jaws when I tightened the bolt. I also tried tapping the bolt in to no avail. Eventually I warmed the chuck with a heat gun gave the bolt a good tap and the taper did come out but I was surprised to find there was no hole right through my chuck so tightening the bolt was doing nothing? Great channel thanks
I am an old enthusiast not a pro, and am having a chuck issue. I had bought on eBay an Albrecht 1/2” used chuck with a straight 1/2” arbor (probably a bad start in the 1st place). With an accurate rod in the chuck jaws and inserted into 1/2” - R8 collet on the mill I was getting about 2~3 thousands run out. I figured it was the arbor and removed it, then used both a new 1/2” arbor and a new R8 - J2 arbor. Same result. Looked on CZcams for disassembly procedures and got it apart. Full of heavy grease (oops!) but the parts look ok to me once cleaned. Got it back together with proper lube and it operates smooth and grabs well. Now here is the issue. The R8 arbor in the mill is true. With the chuck on and checking the chuck’s body around the top area I am getting the 2~3 thousands. I would think the J2 hole in the chuck body is messed up but I can see no marks and it is very smooth. Am I expecting too much out of such a chuck?? I am going to try the blue dye and maybe that will show something. Any ideas will be appreciated, besides putting it back on eBay for someone else - I don’t do things like that. Thanks
Hi Tom I would first check that there are no burrs on the hole edge, use some fine emery cloth to rub the edges. Failing that check what the manufacturers run out tolerances are. Anyone any other ideas?
@@enotsengineering Found out a few things. The tolerances on a new chuck is 0.003 thousands. Next after getting it apart the jaws would not simply slide out. I had to use various screw drivers to push them out. The jaw faces really didn't look that good either. Decided to trash it. Cost of new jaws is more that it is worth to me. I have a #34 1/2" that works fine and will continue with it. Thank you for responding. Tom
I had a similar problem. My drill press has a one piece shaft with a male b16 taper that the chuck fits onto. The shaft was only 12mm in diameter. I changed out the 12mm bearings to 20mm bearings and then fitted a 20mm extension collet holder. I cut the extension holder down to size and then I welded the spline into the end of the collet shaft. Far more solid now and i have used it to do milling as well as drilling.
It appears I've the same machine but no engineering tooling to fix runout, and trying sheer pot luck and patinece instead. 🤠 MT in the quill was well and truly jammed, needed to be removed by disassembling beforehand. The tang wasn't in-line with the slot, and was making contact with the walls. Made a drift from an f clamp, very difficult to remove! When knocking out, keep switching sides, and focus on slot where the drift isn't skewing as much, a battle to keep the drift straight sorted it out. No tooling here, so fingers crossed I can get by without needing to maching inside. Cleaned up the burred up tang with various small files, but looking at the one on this video, it seems I can do some more, pleased about that. Not tried removing chuck yet, eager to see if I can improve matters, Seems I'm gonna be chasing my tail for quite a while doing this, Hope I can sort it out with some sort of bodgery. Thank you very very much for making this video Mr Enot!. Cheers. Tom
Thanks for explaining the steps you took to isolate the area where the error was. Very well explained and practically demonstrated. I followed the same process on my drilling machine. Would you say that 0.006” TIR just outside of the chuck jaws is ok for a drilling machine?
Hi Harry. 0.006" TIR indicates a 0.003" offset which is not bad considering, you could turn the chuck in the spindle 180 deg and see if it reduces or increases but don't worry too much about it.
Can you tell me what make and model drill press you have? Mines look similar, I got used. I'm trying to figure out how the light bulb mounts. I believe this drill style is badged under different names.
Hi Yes this drill press is sold under many names. I don't have a light on my machine but my brothers which is the same make but about 10 years older, has a lamp holder inside the casting between the spindle and column and is linked into the on off switch from inside. Sorry I can't be of more help.
Hi when you say multi-spindle machine I am thinking of a machine with one spindle that has a multi head fitted. So you can drill more than one hole at the same time. In this case you need to check each spindle is running true.
Did you try reseating the chuck at different clock positions to find the lowest runout? Inaccuracies can multiply error but also cancel each other out in some circumstances. Give it a try.
I have a cheapie and while run-out might be an issue, the main problem is the whole spindle wobbles. It’s a lottery as to where the bit will end up. I am guessing the bearings are either very cheap or might even just be a bushing. I’d like to think a simple job of replacing the bearings might improve things, especially as a I don’t have a lathe.
Good repair but the Pro's would have machined the taper while running in the quills bearings for higher precision. To achieve this the quill would be held in the fixed steady, and the rest of the set up as had it.
Hi Chris Good idea if you have bearings that have seals on both sides. I can't do that as the bearings do not have seals on both sides and any swarf produced could get into the bearings
Did you consider mapping the runout on each part and then re-assembling in the best orientation to cancel out as much runout as possible? Those 3 and 7 thou components could make a big dent in the 15 thou final total if you haven't already done that.
I have that same drill press with the exact same problem. I thought that the spindle was bent so I tried to find a new spindle but I have no idea who manufactured it. Any help would be appreciated.
Hi David. The drill press is a common make made in the Far East, my hand book for the drill press does not show a manufacturers name.They were sold in the 1970s onward by engineering tool suppliers some had their own brand name on the machine. So I've no idea who made them. Sorry
Sorry I'm trying to cut down on my work load, but you could try getting a number 2 morse taper reamer and ream it by hand to remove any bumps or dents in the bore. But this will only follow the original taper and not correct any off set.
Would have been much simpler to use a more taper reamer than trying to taper bore the quill once you found the problem! No need to even dismantle the machine either.
the morse taper/jacobs arbor seems a bit banged up too. a new one will help. Using the fixed steady is not the most accurate way. The chance of introducing "new inaccuracy" is almost unavoidable this way. IMHO though.........
Your 1st theorys cant be correct, regarding "bein poorly made". You said its gotten worse, so something is moving somewhere. (Or your measuring is thawed).
Stumbled across this while looking at set up and tuning of a cheap drill press. while im not a machinist and never will be my understanding of how it all fits together and functions has been broadened. Thanks fr taking the time to record this.
Excellent troubleshooting and good repair.
Had this practically new Chinese mill for years. Used it once as a mill, but tried to use it as an overpriced drill press. I was making threaded inserts at one time. Anyway, last few years I've noticed a big wobble on the drill chuck. I bought a new keyless chuck & arbor, still a noticeable wobble on the drill bits... so this thing sat for some time. After watching your video, I disassembled everything & cleaned & polished. Wobble gone! Thanks for the inspiration!
I work on vintage drill presses. Last week had a machine made in 1941 in the shop, a Delta DP-220, with a bent spindle - 0.005" runout. With the Jacobs 6A chuck it came with, 0.018". It could have been a problem with the taper. Unfortunately I'm a fairly poor machinist. I've accumulated a stock of spare parts, pulled the quill out of the machine and replaced the spindle. The runout at the taper was now reading less than a tenths (!). Played around with a few chucks and settled on a keyless Rohm - indicated 0.0006" TIR at ~1" out. Yes, six tenths. Could hardly believe it. A first in my experience. Scared the crap out of my cat with the victory dance. :)
Felix F , could you point me to info about the DP-220? I have one with poor runout that I would like to improve. I'm a woodworker, not a machinist, so my tolerances aren't terribly challenging. I've hoped to repair this machine for a long time!
Felix F.i have a Meddings MB4 mk3.any suggestions on how to change the gearbox oil as i can find no info regarding drain plug(if it has one)and where to fill?.any info greatly appreciated.
Excellent video! Very thought provoking, thx.
Hi Alan back in the 70s I bought an Ajax bench drill new. It was soon evident that there was lots of runout although on the plate it said "Precision Drill".
I contacted the Ajax company who fair play sent an engineer from Manchester to Worcester to look at the problem. He agreed with me and he changed the spindle. It was greatly improved although not precision.
The drill had been in storage for the past 23 years and bees had made a nest in the body resulting in massive rusting in many parts.
I have just finished restoring the drill and have fitted a VFD with three phase motor from Power Capacitors which I also have on my lathe. One reason for doing this was the annoying vibration coming from the pulley cover with the single phase motor. I did in fact remove this as I couldn't cope with that. Now it runs smoothly with no vibration.
The drill looks very similar to yours so I will have to check the runout now.
Many thanks for video, it will be a great help.
They sent a guy to look at it?!?!?! Wow. If only customer service was even remotely close that good nowadays. You're lucky to even get a human on the phone now.
Very good job! Love the tips.
Excellent work. Thanks for posting.
According to my thinking this could have been remedied by grinding the end of the chuck arbor, however that will be like treating the symptoms and not the illness!
The way you did the repair is the best way I could think of cure the illness as it means other tools in that spindle will not become sick!
Your chuck obviously has a through hole in the back so you can easily eject the arbor. Something I will do rather than use wedges should the need arise. Good solution!
John, Australia.
Amazing work!
Great result mate and turned out not to bad to fix.
Very informative video,thanks.
Nicely done! I have never had any experience with this and was able to follow you. Great stuff!
The reason for that huge run-out when it's all assembled is bc you've got the run-out from each part adding up and getting larger the farther out from the spindle you get. Best thing to do is adjust the run-out for each part individually and then try to adjust it as a single unit.
Thank you for the video. I believe I have the same problem. Tried several chucks, 2 actual Jacobs units, a 1/2 and a 3/4, all have the same bad runout. I was thinking about doing exactly what you did to repair it. So thanks for the guidance.
This was really informative. Thanks!
A gauge like that is nice to have, but in the case you don't have one and you need to check for runout, a pencil will work. Simply spin up the chuck, take a pencil and just barely make contact with the chuck for a split second or two. Stop the chuck and look at the pencil line, if the mark is all the way around the chuck evenly then you have no runout. If it skips, or doesn't make a mark all the way around, you either have runout or low spots on the chuck... more likely it's runout. Try it and see, I've tested this simple method and it really does work.
First time I have seen that nut and bolt trick. AWESOME. thanks
Muy ingenioso, muchas gracias. Felicidades
Thank you, this is hugely helpful. I have (I think) the same pillar drill (warco 2b12 or similar?) and have a noticeable wobble at end of drill bit. To my crude eyeball it’s OK at arbour and no movement in quill, and the chuck did fall off the taper not long back so I’m hoping it’s just poorly seated. Need some wedges to get the chuck off (it has no access hole) and will then set up a dial gauge on the Jacobs Taper and keep fingers crossed…!
Neat bit of detective work, thanks
Awesome cheers mate. I had the same problem..
nice varyuseful video alansir
Very nice video. Thank you sir.
I just tried releasing the taper from one of my Jacobs chucks with no luck, the nut was just being forced out of the jaws when I tightened the bolt. I also tried tapping the bolt in to no avail. Eventually I warmed the chuck with a heat gun gave the bolt a good tap and the taper did come out but I was surprised to find there was no hole right through my chuck so tightening the bolt was doing nothing? Great channel thanks
useful video that Alan
I am an old enthusiast not a pro, and am having a chuck issue. I had bought on eBay an Albrecht 1/2” used chuck with a straight 1/2” arbor (probably a bad start in the 1st place). With an accurate rod in the chuck jaws and inserted into 1/2” - R8 collet on the mill I was getting about 2~3 thousands run out. I figured it was the arbor and removed it, then used both a new 1/2” arbor and a new R8 - J2 arbor. Same result. Looked on CZcams for disassembly procedures and got it apart. Full of heavy grease (oops!) but the parts look ok to me once cleaned. Got it back together with proper lube and it operates smooth and grabs well.
Now here is the issue. The R8 arbor in the mill is true. With the chuck on and checking the chuck’s body around the top area I am getting the 2~3 thousands. I would think the J2 hole in the chuck body is messed up but I can see no marks and it is very smooth.
Am I expecting too much out of such a chuck??
I am going to try the blue dye and maybe that will show something. Any ideas will be appreciated, besides putting it back on eBay for someone else - I don’t do things like that.
Thanks
Hi Tom
I would first check that there are no burrs on the hole edge, use some fine emery cloth to rub the edges. Failing that check what the manufacturers run out tolerances are. Anyone any other ideas?
@@enotsengineering Found out a few things. The tolerances on a new chuck is 0.003 thousands. Next after getting it apart the jaws would not simply slide out. I had to use various screw drivers to push them out. The jaw faces really didn't look that good either. Decided to trash it. Cost of new jaws is more that it is worth to me. I have a #34 1/2" that works fine and will continue with it. Thank you for responding. Tom
I had a similar problem. My drill press has a one piece shaft with a male b16 taper that the chuck fits onto. The shaft was only 12mm in diameter.
I changed out the 12mm bearings to 20mm bearings and then fitted a 20mm extension collet holder. I cut the extension holder down to size and then I welded the spline into the end of the collet shaft.
Far more solid now and i have used it to do milling as well as drilling.
It appears I've the same machine but no engineering tooling to fix runout, and trying sheer pot luck and patinece instead. 🤠
MT in the quill was well and truly jammed, needed to be removed by disassembling beforehand.
The tang wasn't in-line with the slot, and was making contact with the walls.
Made a drift from an f clamp, very difficult to remove!
When knocking out, keep switching sides, and focus on slot where the drift isn't skewing as much, a battle to keep the drift straight sorted it out.
No tooling here, so fingers crossed I can get by without needing to maching inside.
Cleaned up the burred up tang with various small files, but looking at the one on this video, it seems I can do some more, pleased about that.
Not tried removing chuck yet, eager to see if I can improve matters,
Seems I'm gonna be chasing my tail for quite a while doing this,
Hope I can sort it out with some sort of bodgery.
Thank you very very much for making this video Mr Enot!.
Cheers.
Tom
Thanks Helped me alot
When you put the morse taper between centres, a polish with a precision flat stone would have helped you dial in the compound.
Great video. Thanks.
Great video👍👍👍
Very cool
A nice fix thar Alan, a new chuck and you will be well away!
Very clever, detective
Nicely done. As i have experimented with making tapers this would be less imtidating.
Thanks for explaining the steps you took to isolate the area where the error was.
Very well explained and practically demonstrated. I followed the same process on my drilling machine.
Would you say that 0.006” TIR just outside of the chuck jaws is ok for a drilling machine?
Hi Harry. 0.006" TIR indicates a 0.003" offset which is not bad considering, you could turn the chuck in the spindle 180 deg and see if it reduces or increases but don't worry too much about it.
Tq sir for information.👍
:-) Thanks, very much.
Can you tell me what make and model drill press you have? Mines look similar, I got used. I'm trying to figure out how the light bulb mounts. I believe this drill style is badged under different names.
Hi Yes this drill press is sold under many names. I don't have a light on my machine but my brothers which is the same make but about 10 years older, has a lamp holder inside the casting between the spindle and column and is linked into the on off switch from inside.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
thats great! may i know if you can suggest about multispindle drilling?
Hi when you say multi-spindle machine I am thinking of a machine with one spindle that has a multi head fitted. So you can drill more than one hole at the same time. In this case you need to check each spindle is running true.
Did you try reseating the chuck at different clock positions to find the lowest runout? Inaccuracies can multiply error but also cancel each other out in some circumstances. Give it a try.
damm smart to think of that - I put in a new chuck a couple of days ago - 'and I've got a dial indicator
I'll be out there soon - thanks
Wonder what the run out is on the cheaper $150 drill presses such as Ryobi or mastercraft brand.
I have a cheapie and while run-out might be an issue, the main problem is the whole spindle wobbles. It’s a lottery as to where the bit will end up.
I am guessing the bearings are either very cheap or might even just be a bushing. I’d like to think a simple job of replacing the bearings might improve things, especially as a I don’t have a lathe.
Good repair but the Pro's would have machined the taper while running in the quills bearings for higher precision. To achieve this the quill would be held in the fixed steady, and the rest of the set up as had it.
Hi Chris Good idea if you have bearings that have seals on both sides.
I can't do that as the bearings do not have seals on both sides and any swarf produced could get into the bearings
enots engineering good point but not I think insurmountable. .
Did you consider mapping the runout on each part and then re-assembling in the best orientation to cancel out as much runout as possible? Those 3 and 7 thou components could make a big dent in the 15 thou final total if you haven't already done that.
Hi When I set it up in the lathe with the spindle running true you could see the bore running out.
I have that same drill press with the exact same problem. I thought that the spindle was bent so I tried to find a new spindle but I have no idea who manufactured it. Any help would be appreciated.
Hi David. The drill press is a common make made in the Far East, my hand book for the drill press does not show a manufacturers name.They were sold in the 1970s onward by engineering tool suppliers some had their own brand name on the machine. So I've no idea who made them. Sorry
@@enotsengineering Thanks anyways. I appreciate you replying back.
If you want to ceck the chuck drill you should use a 4-5" round shaft
Machining is such a useful skill to have, and yet I lack it : /
My old Atlas 1425 drill press, carefully restored, has the EXACT same problem. The MT2 bore needs to be re-run.
Can you do this for a fee ?
Sorry I'm trying to cut down on my work load, but you could try getting a number 2 morse taper reamer and ream it by hand to remove any bumps or dents in the bore. But this will only follow the original taper and not correct any off set.
I have exact same problem :( but I don't have machines to fix these and I don,t know who can fix.
Would have been much simpler to use a more taper reamer than trying to taper bore the quill once you found the problem! No need to even dismantle the machine either.
But if the taper was already off, a reamer would just give you a smoother taper that's still out of alignment.
the morse taper/jacobs arbor seems a bit banged up too. a new one will help. Using the fixed steady is not the most accurate way. The chance of introducing "new inaccuracy" is almost unavoidable this way. IMHO though.........
I think you have a combination of errors which causes this run-out. Brother, rather get rid of the fixed center - it's in a serious bad shape.
I reckon all these chucks Tapers are turn3ed out like chocolate bars ..yet to see any close to being accurate..
Your 1st theorys cant be correct, regarding "bein poorly made". You said its gotten worse, so something is moving somewhere. (Or your measuring is thawed).
For people who are planning to build their own drill presses, if you want maximum precission use tapered bearings on both ends!