Porcellio laevis ‘Orange’ X ‘Dairy Cow’ Experiment: What Happened?
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
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The reason this worked with Porcellio scaber is because the genes for dalmatian and orange are located at different loci. This is a simple dihybrid cross and as you explained, you get the wild-type F1 and a mixed 1:1:1:1 ratio at F2. This is consistent for all species of animals, plants etc... The reason this doesn't work with Porcellio laevis is most likely because the dalmatian and orange alleles exist at the same locus. Based on your experiment, it seems dalmatian is dominant to orange. This means that even if an isopod has a gene for orange AND a gene for dalmatian, it will just look like a regular dalmatian. There is no reason these morphs are unable to interbreed, they absolutely are. You are getting the few stray oranges because when two isopods that carry both genes have offspring, 25% will be orange. Any other mix and all babies will be dalmatian (except orange x orange of course). Along with genetic drift of the small population, the orange allele will most likely "die out". Basically, it's impossible to have both of these genes exist at the same time in the phenotype because they're located at the same locus and orange is recessive. - coming from someone with a Biology degree lol 😂
You have wrote a whole paragraph, but still have no reply’s, I’m gonna change that
this makes sense to me, thank you so much! genetics 101! haha
Very good points! Though it has since been discovered that dairy cows are not actually able to breed with most other P laevis, and are in fact, not P. laevis at all 😅
@@BUtheBabyUnicorn please do you have science article or some evidence of dairy cow beeing different species than P.laevis? Thanks. I am interested in it :)
@nataliabenovicova6017 I have a video about that with a link to an article 👍
You should try mixing as many different lines of Dairy Cow as possible, you'd increase the chance of mutation, and might get some unique morphs that way.
I hear there are several out there...would be worth a try!!
Thanks for trying to do this in such a systematic manner, Rus. Answers a lot of questions for us. Still, I wish someone (maybe YOU?) would write up the differences between species, subspecies, morphs, hybrids, etc. Even just a chart explaining what we might expect when we cross A x B would be great (what percentage of mancae would be A, B, AB, or something else). If you can think of any resources that already explain that kind of thing, please let me know. If not, I'll just have to wait for the "Aquarimax Guide to Isopod Genetics"! :)
John Racine You’re welcome! Orin McMonigle’s ‘Isopod Zoology’ delves into many of the species, localities, morphs, etc. I have nearly finished the book, and can definitely recommend it. I think there are still a lot of unknowns when it comes to isopods genetics, but I like the idea of putting a guide together of what we do and do not know. 👍🏽 I’ll see what I can do.
@@Aquarimax Go for it! In the meantime, I'll check out McMonigle's book. Thanks!
We need more genetic information on these guys… trying to scheme on how we can write a grant to fund it ;)
I congratulate your efforts. Try, try again! I love hearing about this sort of thing. Keep up the great work!
Jordan Blackerby Thank you!!
Great video Rus. This is so crazy but I finally separated my DC and Orange a couple of days ago. Just like you, I had no sign of mixing of the genes. So unfortunate. But informative.
Supreme Gecko I agree! Documentation is key. Before it out these together, I had never heard of anyone doing it. As soon as I posted the video...people came out of the woodwork telling me that they had tried and failed. I am glad that you decided to do the experiment about the same time I did...more real data! 👍
Hello,
I have 3 porcellio Larvis orange Dalmations.
How could i send you a picture?
www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-d701f6-1597086977.jpg.html
Ereitonn20 Wow! These certainly look amazing! What is their origin?
It is possible! (I believe) I've only seen one hybrid so far in my mixed setup, but they have a faint orange colourstion
Generally that faint orange tint is a result of pigments from carotenoids in the isopods’ food. If you ever see wild types, followed by subsequent generations that include specimens with clear separation between white and orange markings, that is an indication of success.
Great stream! Came back to see what I missed. Sorry the super chat wasnt much but not got much in my paypal😂
XxCallum Rae Tha I you so much! I am very grateful for a superchat of ANY amount!!
@@Aquarimax just supporting a great creator👍🏻
I came across your video as I have had dairy cow and giant orange together, and they now have a orange colouration and some of them have orange/brown spots which was making me think they had cross bred succesfully, Iwas suprised to find that the offspring you produced dont look like mine.. **great video**
Did you ever get any specimens that were just pure gray? This would tend to indicate a successful first-generation cross.
What kinds of dairy cows where they if you don’t mind me asking? Laevis?
thanksfor sharing. really good observations in changes ot behavior too in correlation to the colours
Super interesting video! Thanks for sharing!
I have dairy cows and oranges (P. laevis) in my terrarium. They've been living together for several months (maybe even almost a year?) and have been wondering why my dairy cows seemed to be the only ones reproducing, lol. But I guess you experienced the same thing here in your video. I have, however, found some wild types which I cannot confirm came from the two morphs cross-breeding as I cannot 100% rule out that they didn't just sneak into the shipment of dairy cows when I first ordered them. Nevertheless, I have consistently seen that my isopods are becoming increasingly off-white and orangeish in colour (without spots or dark coloured spots, but not orange spotted either). Today, I even found my first milkback, which was a huge surprise.
I'm not actively trying to breed any sort of special morph or know much about their genetics, so these are just observations I've been about my established colony.
Love this! I have both of these species right now and I wanted to start a terrarium with them both. Can’t wait to see how they are in a year!
Mine never crossed! I still have some milkbacks with oranges in an enclosure and there is absolutely no evidence that they have crossed 😂
I water with a tea made from Mosquito dunks or bits. Never had an issue or had it interfere with my Millis, Isos, Roaches or worms.
Does great for houseplants, too. I keep a 'dunk' in my watering can at all times.
Edit: I also notice the 'dairy cow' undersides glow under UV light. It does tend to frighten them though, so I switched to just using red light.
Is it possible to try to hybridize them with a different morph? They may both be able to hybridize with a different porcellio morph and then you can cross their hybird children together. It's just an idea, i'm not as well versed in isopods as you.
Blue Bowser I am actually planning on trying out something of that sort...I will be sure to document it on video. 👍🏽
How about isolating pairs, 6 male dairy cows to 6 orange females, and 6 female dairy cows to 6 male oranges? By pairing them off you can ensure they mate to each other and thus you can try to force it to happen
It’s a good suggestion, and I have thought of it, but P. laevis are tiny when they are old enough to mate, and the females store sperm for multiple broods. Trying to disto my wish male from female when they are tiny and active is quite difficult, unfortunately.
@@Aquarimax gotcha, maybe another time
Hi Rus! I went back to this video to share my experience. I tried to cohabitate the P. laevis Dairy Cow and Orange, and unlike in your experience, my orange took over the enclosure, and wiped out the cows. But there was a time when both types are in 100s in number, then suddenly i noticed no more cow..
Thanks for sharing! I suspect there is more than one line of orange laevis out there…do you oranges get larger than your cows?
Me too. I also wonder if there are different Dairy Cow lineages out there too
Can't way for the next millipede stream!
I had a couple powder blues with orange outlines but then the whole colony kind of turned gray and orange.
Hey, watched this and your earlier video about trying to cross these two species. I just wanted to say I appear to have had success - I have orange coloured dairy cows! Drop me a message if you'd like to discuss it further, but basically the trick appears to be the ratios you keep them at. Either that, or my fairy cows have mutated to express an orange pigment gene.
I would like to see them! Are the dark spots orange, or is there an orange tint to the white?
I was imagining a cheetah look
Wow
You did prove that dairy cows can out compete the oranges quite easily.
Reptile Nexus Good point, there is a good amount of evidence for that!
Or, there were simply more female cows than orange upon introduction.
Because they're the same species they shouldn't be competing based on color, unless maybe there's some sexual selection there? Another commenter said porcellio laevis's genetics make it so that the orange gene is completely recessive, so even if they have the gene it doesn't show unless they have two pairs of the gene. Think punnet square (From my understanding)
Maybe you should try to cross dairy cows with a wild type or some other type of laevis to see if it's even possible.
Joshua Knoebel. Attempted crossing with other morphs is definitely in the plan. 👍
I can't wait to see how the progress.
Maybe there’s an intermediate color variety that could mate with both?
Thanks for the update! I have a newbie question as I'm just starting out. I have 20 or so dwarf whites and about a half dozen magic potion and dwarf orange. What size enclosure would you recommend to get them breeding ? Also as they are new with new substrate and leaf litter, is it normal for them not to go for food that I put into the container with them? Thanks so much!
Welcome to isopods! The dwarf whites could start in a pretty small container. You could put them in a 16-oz deli cup and they’d have plenty of growing room.
If you only half a half dozen of each of the others, you could still use a 16-oz deli cup, or something of around the same size. Once they start producing well, I would move them all to larger quarters...I often use a 6-qt tub.
It is indeed normal for them to have little interest in supplemental food when the culture is new. Once their population increases, they’ll show more interest in it. 👍🏽
I would breed for size and color a hamster or mouse sized isopod
I missed the live chat but I am here.
Barb Helle I’m glad you’re catching the replay! Thank you Barb!
Some of my woodlouse are brown color
So OK I learned a couple of things today. My vivarium has native Isopods. But I watch these videos in the hopes of getting clues that may help me. I see that it would not likely
be any purpose to buy these high end Isopods as the natives would not allow it very much. My springtail colony is growing great. I am curious. How long till I see a few mature ones ?
I now have hundreds in the enclosure, but they are all tiny. I watched one video on you tube where the springtails were all very large(at least 1/8" ).
Gecxid Rureel I agree that if you already have one species of isopod thriving in your vivarium, there would be little point in adding another species. You may already have mature springtails of a smaller species. It only takes a few weeks for most springtails to become adults.
@@Aquarimax Smaller species....that thought never crossed my mind. These are from Josh's Frogs. I may call them about this. Thanks.
Seriously should have watched this a while back as I have this very experiment going on right now lol. This sucks and now I'm on a downer 😆 Time to chuck in a wild card and mix in some wild types and see what I get :D
I wish you success! I harbor some suspicion (and hope) that the UK stock for at least some of these is different from the US stock. Maybe that will help!
@@Aquarimax I'm not giving up although I did read some compelling evidence against it. Nature finds a way though so there is always hope Rus!
maybe try only putting one of each into smaler enclsoures and some of those enclsoures would have 1 male and 1 female and htat would show pretty clearly if they are breeding or not
Interestingly, it is now accepted that the orange form was isolated from a different species that happens to look similar to P. laevis, and that they cannot interbreed.
@@Aquarimax oh okay that is pretty intressting
I've been thinking about doing this
Let me know if you get different results!
@@Aquarimax I figured why not. Some have been sitting at my lfs for some time now and I kinda just wanna save em. I might start using a stacking bin method so I can have multiple colonies
It depends on whether this is great or not. If you were looking to disprove the fact DC were the same species as the O then it is good. If you were looking to create a new breed then it is not.
True! It all depends on perspective.
Maybe dairy cows pattern overpowers the orange color
As far as we can tell, they just can't interbreed successfully, because the expected result of a cross would be double-het wild types in the first generation.
hi from walla walla wa missed you this time
Jackie Waybright I hope to catch you for the next one! 👍🏽
About the powders in the leo's... do you add fish pellets and other foods to the bioactive for the isopods besides the leaf litter and gecko poo?
Quentin M I do add supplemental foods once in a while, just to give the isopods a boost. They would probably do fine without it. 😊
I belive I have some dairy and orange morphs in my enclosure .
You can try to select all male of DC and all female of Orange then mix them. That make them must to mate with orther morph. I think if they have both male and female in 1 morph in enclosure, they will choice same morph to mate not orther morph.
Lãm Beetle's Farmer good suggestion, but I actually have video of a dairy cow and an orange trying to mate. You can see it in this video: czcams.com/video/FeO8DLcFUZM/video.html Apparently they do try, but nothing comes of it.
@@Aquarimax ya, i have seen it. I am trying with my colony too, hope them can have result soon. I saw some people had Orange cow too 🤣 the hybird from DC and Orange
Lãm Beetle's Farmer I have seen some dairy cows with the normal dark spots a little orange on them...is that what you have seen? Those do not appear to be crosses, otherwise they would be white with orange spots.
@@Aquarimax i saw orange with black spots and some one like your
Lãm Beetle's Farmer those orange with black spots appears to be something else going on genetically, but they’re still pretty neat.
Can I put Porcellio Scaber in coco coir?
Gary Guo Yes, but they will probsbly not breed well without leaf litter as well.
Why not have two experiments one with only male Daity cows and female oranges and the other with the sexes reversed?
Any new woodlice should be crosses.
Part of the problem is that they store sperm for multiple broods after one mating. After keeping them together for years with n evidence of cross breeding, I don’t think it is possible.
Now what to breed with rubber duckies.. hmmm
That would be true hybridization, as they would be different species...but who knows??
I've got a plethora of gray pill bugs in my yard!!!! Aquarimax, what do they eat???? I gots to know!!!!!!
A Rose they will get most of their food from the substrate they are housed in
A Rose Yes, as a Permian Exotics said, their substrate (mostly decaying herdwood leaves and wood), as well as small pieces of fruits vegetables, fish food...
@@Aquarimax Thank your!!!
I always let the fungus gnats stick around. I feed them to my small spiders.
what are these for?
I have 3 porcellio Laevis orange dalmatians.
I could send you a Picture, if you tell me how.
I would love to see them! Please use www.aquarimax.com/contact/ OR @aquarimaxpets on Instagram.
@@Aquarimax
Hello again,
i uploaded it, so everyone can look for himselfe.
www.bilder-upload.eu/bild-d701f6-1597086977.jpg.html
I could only find this 2 specimen, but also some offspring, that looked promising.
The third one (hope he is still alive) had a pattern, with more smaller dots.
Hope i could motivate you to maybe try it again.
Ereitonn20 I this is amazing. would like to talk to through email, and ask your permission to post the picture (and credit you, of course)
@@Aquarimax
Of course you can use the picture.
Since I live in Germany, it will be rather difficult to send you a few if I can really produce stable offspring.
But maybe you will be able to breed a few yourself by then.
I am also trying to mate mine with whites, in order to get a nicer basic color, because my orange Dalmatians are currently a very light beige tone than a pure white.
I am writing this text with the Google translator and hope that it does not lead to misunderstandings.
Ereitonn20 your message is all very clear...no translation problems at all.
Thank you for allowing me to use the picture! How would you like me to credit you?
Also, how were these created? Did these show up spontaneously in a Dairy Cow culture, or were they the result of a cross?
Dairy cow is a more dominant trait
Quick question. I started a colony of about 25 several weeks ago, I'm also planning on getting a few common garden snails as well. would it make sense to keep them in the same habitat or do you think the isopods wouldn't be able to acclimate to the snails' preference for moisture? Thanks!
I have heard that some people keep isopods as a cleanup crew for snails...but apparently there are pros and cons.you would need an isopod species with a high tolerance for humidity. 👍
@@Aquarimax Thanks. I know isopods do definitely prefer humidity to a degree, I try to keep half of the enclosure more moist so they have options. Mine are Armadillidium Vulgare I believe, just basic roly polys/pillbugs
Salad that species does require pretty decent ventilation, as long as they have a humidity gradient and good ventilation they should be ok. 👍
Aquarimax Pets Yeah I’ve definitely got good ventilation. Thanks for your time and advice
is it a good idea to put gum tree leaf into my isopods container?
min wang I do not use gum tree leaves. Are they very aromatic?
well, a little.
I'm wondering if its possible to adam and eve them 1 male 1 female and observer cross species mating behaviour id guess that dairy cows are more appealing to male dairy cows with how more prolific they are
m14srv good suggestion! I have seen mating behavior between the two...It just seems that the matings are not fertile.