Thanks for watching. If you're interested in seeing more of these portables check out one of my favourite videos here czcams.com/video/NEqfLdOITAE/video.html
I'm an IT guy and this entire process reminds me of so many times tracking down weird issues. Makes you go insane then that final moment where you find the problem it is just amazing.
I'm from an IT background and if I had a problem where the monitoring /diag tool says it's one device but that device is showing its operating normally, then my first instinct is to look at all the other devices to see if they are working normally.
Update on the situation we had a technician come out on Monday. Me and the tech put every portable into trouble temporarily one at a time to get all the modules labelled properly. The problem module was working perfectly fine so we did not replace it personally I would have anyways, however the tech left us a spare module to put in place if it acts up again. The long-term solution is to replace the system. We did have our company that deals with notifier go through a walk-through of the building with us. So we did get a quote to replace the system with notifier. It would not be a full addressable swap, but a direct replacement with addressable smokes and modules and leaving conventional zones. But replacing bells with the one for one upgrade of horn strobes for now and then likely coming back later and adding more as horn strobes are not as effective as bells. However this summer is extremely busy with other system upgrades and annual testing as well as moving several portables school to school. so this upgrade would not be done until spring break or winter break of the 2023/2024 school year.
@@josephfrye7342 some of EST's products are not bad. Simplex products aren't terrible however their customer service is so as a company they are not good
@@nics-systems-electric Simplex is mainly recognized for their products. If it wasn’t for JCI (and mostly their business model), Simplex would be even more prevalent and probably run circles around Honeywell’s brands. But it’s nice to see the quickstart finally get what’s coming to it. Please keep it and durability test it. Plug the slc into 120v and watch the carnage.
@Marc Leslie as far as coolness and the nice sound I do prefer the bells but I have to look at it from a realistic standpoint and realize that the strobes are the future with less current draw more reliable
@nics-systems-electric: As a fellow fire alarm tech, for future reference with EST / Kidde fire alarm panels when a module/detector, etc. goes into alarm / trouble condition the panel should also show the module's serial number (this same number would match the serial number sticker on the module itself). Granted, that is dependent on if the original installer/programmer kept the module's serial number in programming. On that type of panel, try the status button to see if additional info shows the active module's serial number. That serial number can make it easier to troubleshoot and narrow down the possibilities of what is causing the fault / issue.
That's a good call. Thanks for the tip. I admit I got complete tunnel vision looking at the labelling trying to find it that way which is obviously something to avoid while troubleshooting. and look at the whole picture. But I should've known better. I even did use the status light to check for any helpful information, I should've considered that. Thanks again for the tip
@@nics-systems-electric Skipping steps in troubleshooting... especially when on call-in was something I worked to stop doing. Gather information (Symptoms, Errors, what has happened, what steps have already been done), Question contact/user (to confirm details -- say it back to confirm it is heard/understood correctly, and as much details), Identify symptoms (as may be some not noticed), Determine if any changes have been done, if so when/what, duplicate (confirm the symptoms and errors are still there... and it hasn't just resolved itself), most important... resolve one issue at a time. At points you seemed to start, then jumped to doing something else, but with the security system and fire alarms interconnected... that would be harder to do.
@@nics-systems-electric Been there, done that w/ the "Tunnel Vision" happening. :) I recently had a Kidde VS system that would randomly pop the dreaded "System Ground Fault" message that would last for a few seconds on the signaling line circuit (SLC). Tore the SLC apart several times trying to isolate / segment down to locate the cause, and banged my head against the wall. Turned out to be a faulty switch on a sprinkler tamper valve that was causing the ground fault condition. I forget what I had done, but I had managed to get the panel to say what SLC device had the fault on it and once that happened figuring out the exact cause was super simple. It's all good in the end. :)
@@nics-systems-electric Part of it is you were too trusting in the labeling. Incorrect documentation is a fact of life. Don't be too quick to judge, but consider it when things don't add up.
This is fascinating to me -- I work in the tech/IT side of systems engineering but have always been curious what sys engineering means to some of my peers in other industries! Subscribed.
Accurate labeling is important. When the system is installed every point needs to be tested and verified for accuracy before it is signed off by the intaller, fire department and owner. annual testing should also verify accuracy. Failures of many parties led to this issue being this difficult to troubleshoot. Hopefully lessons were learned during this and this will help in future trouble shooting.
It appears that it was accurate between the sensor and the front panel, but the modules themselves were not properly labeled. Apparently that's not checked as part of the annual. Nor would it really need to be as it's not safety critical. It's just for the tech's convenience.
This was just terrible troubleshooting. He lept to a rash conclusion without any supporting evidence and then went about handling the situation as though his idea it was software was correct. This was so drawn out because his approach was miopic. First rule in a situation like this is DO NOT FIXATE. All he had to do was keep an open mind. He closed his mind and convinced himself the first thing he thought of was the answer and that decision tied him up in knots. Instead of grabbing the first thing he thought of as correct and thus not even thinking about others, he should have said software could be causing this but it might be something else entirely. And kept looking to see what else could also be the cause. He didn't keep looking because he was convinced he was already right.
@@johnrauner2515 I agree it's a poor example, but it's not like I've never gone down the wrong rabbit hole. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He looks to be pretty young. Hopefully he learns from it.
Reminds me of dealing with all the quarks of the fire system at a large museum I worked for. That thing was so temperamental (FCI) and only myself and 2 others knew how to troubleshoot it. Made for some long days and nights.
Yep, one year in college I lived in a dorm/apartment that had EST alarms and panel. Fire alarms went off (whether it was a prank, burnt food, or system failure) almost every week!
@@nics-systems-electric My school uses EST, get surprise drills every once and a while. However I think this is more because of the large amount of pull stations in opened and unattended classrooms, could also be both. EST is popular around where I live
@@EASsirenVids01 yes I will most likely make a video if I'm part of this replacement project which I likely will be and as for the other comment about suppression system no suppression system has nothing to do with a fire alarm upgrade and they are only put in place in specialty areas which this building does not have any that would require such system
Yeah man, did commercial fire alarms for many years not doing it anymore but. I want to see some ground fault videos. I was the guy you sent to find the ground fault and I was damn good at finding and repairing them.
Well done lad, you got there in the end. As an electrician/ security tech for 30 years I have seen it all until tomorrow when a new fault will have to be solved. Some tips for you, when first arriving on-site assess the complete situation, then a plan of action. Do your own detective work, it’s easy to get lost listening to peoples opinion of the issue. When trying to identify a circuit or zone, put a short or fault on it and check panel shows same, this would have identified your mislabelling issue. Although they are probably not mislabelled, some fool has had the lids off and put them on wrong. From the UK, I have not seen that panel but I am sure I could wire and work it no problem😂. Addressable system devices with no dip switches are no good for heat of the moment fault finding. Still, it was a good video and I am glad to see it’s not just me that gets stuff like that. All the best to you.
It’s cool how you can help with the fire alarms in systems are you a part of the district? How are you able to do these type of jobs? Love your videos❤
Interesting stuff. The fact that you drive from the portables to the main school and back so many times instead of just walking is the most American thing ever though! 😂
Obviously it's a QuickStart and I see why EST discontinued the QuickStart and I've never saw one in person. I see EST3s and EST iO panels and those I think do slightly better than QuickStarts.
This is first vid of yours I have watched. I am the one at work that handles fire alarm problems. Not certified, just onsite guy with knowledge. I felt your pain as you were trying to figure out the problem. I was telling you to bypass the SLC when you were disconnecting the zone circuit and then you did. 😁 yea! I keep some emergency rations in my work vehicle. My choice is a couple of cans of pull tab top chili (I can eat it cold if I have to), a couple plastic spoons and some bottles of water. It’s hard to think straight when you are hungry or thirsty. Sometimes you have to stop and fuel up so you can figure out the problem. Sometimes fueling up also helps get your patience back. Like your tool bag with pockets for everything. I think I will get one like it. I think you have the brains to work through problems like that panel. Sometimes it’s easy to get stuck on the idea that the problem is “A” and you have to remember to stop and reevaluate, is there a “B”! I have nine months before I retire, you have a bit more😝. Make it a goal to work a tiny bit smarter every day! Best wishes, Jeff
I didn't see it in the video, but did you check for any induced voltage? Not just coming off the dry contacts for the module, but also pulling the SLC off completely from the panel and checking. I completely understand the labeling problem though, that's quite a headache, so you're literally chasing ghosts if you don't know what you're looking for exactly.
No pre-action system just a wet system in the main building and dry system in the portables as well as the band hall building is a partial dry system the low air trouble is not actually there the panel just comes up with random stuff when it's resetting or has been messed with at all
If you were asking about the zone coming off of the modules in the E-house then no as I metered the zone that was in alarm and only read the end of line resistor not a short
I used to be a fire alarm enthusiast before joining the car wash community (do not join the car wash community, you will regret it) but even still this is fascinating. I love these kinds of videos of troubleshooting computer systems and whatnot, absolutely love it. Keep up the good work.
No at the time of making this video there was no plans for replacement however a couple weeks after we did a walk-through with our notifier guys and got a quote for replacement but we have too many other things going on this summer that this will probably be sometime in the 2023/2024 school year
At 1:01:47 is the exact moment I think you may have "fixed" the glitch. Wire just fell off was what was said. And it was not one of the 2 wires removed for testing from what I could see.
I believe it was a different zone altogether even if it was the right zone it was still solid contact until it broke as the wire didn't fall off it broke off from fatigue if it had been loose even still fire alarms are a normally open system so loose contact only will cause trouble not full alarm
Great video, and really relatable, in the sense of rabbithole-troubleshooting, been guilty of that many-many times in my industry as well. While the time spent diagnosing the control unit/brains of the machine could be considered “wasted time” by some, it actually provided a great learning opportunity to you (and us). Confirmation-bias is super common when doing complex troubleshooting for extended periods of time😅 Thanks for the captions that explain the problem early on, as otherwise i would have had no idea what was going on. It is sad-funny(or ironic?) that the module that was causing the alarms was right next to the one you were looking at.
biggest Lesson is never presume anything even in your own team/company there always going to be that one thing which slips even in years of checking verify verify verify
I once was at a boarding school and the alarm went off in the middle of the night. my teacher joked it could be a caterpillar... it turned out to be a caterpillar! walking inside a part of the alarm system. LOL
The 3 bells pattern. Is that pretty standard in the usa? I live in the uk and we fit fire angel smoke alarms in houses, they have the same pattern, 3 beeps - most brands just have continuous short beeps. In commercial fire alarms here bells arent normally used - we have sirens or vsrious types - some are a constant sound, some are a "repeating climb" noise. But the rules are the same type must be fitted throughout a building. Amazed to see those portable classrooms have sprinklers in them! My school had some portable units but i think the rules for them in the uk are far less strict - sprinklers are required in far less places here.
the fact that they are registered / labeled wrong really really suck ! You trust on test when it was installed would have been caught ! all in a day of headaches.
12:00 I was a bit confused here how you'd be able to measure the loop resistance while it's in an active measurement circuit... but then you measured 0 Ω and tripped an alarm so I guess that answers that ;-)
When playing with it the first time and tripping a different zone... me as a computer tech goes... wait... that was a different area... As I have seen many times items are mislabelled. I prefer to confirm the device is correct device as part of my early troubleshooting, especially when playing with what should have been the device tripped something which shouldn't have been related. Figuring out which device it was at that point would have saved a lot of back and forth, especially when jumping it out didn't resolve the issue. Also... as soon as I was on-site, would have made sure whoever was responsible had notified everyone monitoring (911, security, etc) that you were working on the system before I even opened a panel or touched a button.
Yes for sure you can never trust the labelling too much and that got reinforced into my mind that day and yes definitely notify the monitoring company before going hands on which in that case I was OK to start touching stuff as the system was already in alarm and had already called out so it couldn't call out again until reset
I don't think this guy has the skills to be touching a system like this. He wasted most of the day running around in circles because he decided the first thing he thought of was the answer - the firmware upgrade was the problem. From there he fixated on this to the point of being myopic. This was just terrible troubleshooting. He reached a rash conclusion with no supporting evidence to justify it and then did nothing to confirm it as the cause. Eventually hours later he isolated the data channel into the panel to see if the fault went away which it did. That confirmed firmware wasn't the problem. But he should have done that test the moment he decided the firmware was the problem to confirm his conclusion or exclude it. That's just basic troubleshooting. If you think something is the cause then figure out how to confirm it and do that. Instead he spent the day running back and forth between opposite sides of the school even to the point where the two of them actually wondered around the school checking all the smokies. That right there tells you these guys shouldn't be touching this system. The moment I saw all those remote modules on that wall I knew wrong labeling was something to watch for. Especially once he'd isolated the suspect module and the fault remained. I would have then isolated the last half of those modules and seen if the fault went away. If it did then the fault was in that last set of modules (about 4 in total). If the fault remained I'd have isolated the first half as well and seen if the fault went away. Either way, isolating one half of them (and if need be the other half) would cut in half the number that then had to be isolated one by one. to find the faulty one. This should have taken them less than an hour. I also notice in one of his comments here he's wanting to replace the whole system with a new one thinking somehow that's going to make things better. When in reality this system works perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with it apart from the occasional defect which all systems of this size have from time to time. Guys like this can cost organizations a fortune. Not only in the man hours spent on this due to how he went about it, but also in the money he's encouraging the school to waste putting in a new system to replace one that doesn't need replacing. Again, myopia. Just jumping from one rash unsupported conclusion to another. He's blaming the system for the massive amount of time spent finding this fault and hasn't learned a thing. It wasn't the system that caused this massive amount of time to be wasted. It was him.
@@johnrauner2515 I did not jump to any conclusions not once did I say this is the problem for sure part of troubleshooting is you have to look at all possibilities
When he took off the module that you thought was an alarm and a portable other than 1 when it's in trouble you should have known right away that the labels were messed up.
Have you tried completely restarting every panel ? As in disconnect power and battery, wait 10 seconds or so and then plug it all back in? Sometimes system reset might not work in my experience
one little gripe about EST; in alarm or activation, the LEDS should be solid Red like notifier modules instead of blinking. Their smokes do the same thing. That might have helped a bit identifying which module is acting up. Really sucks the labeling was wrong lmao. It's either that or someone put the wrong description??
That's what was kind of throwing me off to as I am looking for solid red however we had blinking red for whatever reason I'm not a expert on EST so I'm not sure and yeah the labelling was completely goofed up
@@nics-systems-electric Yeah I get ya bro, I'd be looking for solid red as well because I'm so used to Notifier with my company, and Simplex as my hobby systems. I would have been thrown off with y'all lmao. I'm not used to EST either but I'm trying to get into them. I hope they fix that damn labeling
4:08 if it’s connected to the network, yes. You would be able to view it on APC SmartConnect on that model. I don’t believe that one allows any other types of monitoring (self monitoring/free).
My Friend, In Edwards if you didnt enable in the program disable event to restore to normal, you cant disable input alarm devices while they are in active, short cut way is note down device address and panel and card address and then disconnect SLC wire from panel i mean power down field device and then press reset on the panel now alarm will restore and now disable and then reconnect your SLC back to the panel. now you are good.
So whenever you replace they system with a Notifier System, whether that would be winter break or spring break. But anyway, to my understanding of that comment you made, you are not doing a full addressable swap. So does that mean that you are going to replace the currently addressable smoke detectors with FSP-951s? And for the pull stations, are those going to remain the same or possible lower them for ADA compliance? And then what panel are you going to put in? I feel like a Notifier NFS-320C would be too small for that building, so is going to be an NFS2-640C?
Just a 320 will do they don't need to SLC loops or more than 318 devices and they don't need network capability so I assume we're probably doing a 320 and yes all addressable devices will be changed and because we are not altering the pull stations they should be able to be grandfathered in at their current height
lol !!!! Been in the industry 35 years and this is the first time I heard of these. Good one !!! Do you happen to have any other good ones for other brands ?
We had an EST quick start system at one of our pools and I can promise you that I will never put an EST quick start system in my house. Simplex 4100U was terrible but with all of the horror stories about EST quick start panels, I would rather have a Simplex 4100U than this system.
As someone who messes with electricity, sensors and a temperamental dodge truck with dash gauges acting up. That one loose wire that popped out as the other guy was messing with it could have caused all the problems you were seeing. Wire is loose and causing a poor connection to the module. When you tightened the screw back down on it, it took the resistance away. That is all it takes to throw those system out of whack. I had been called out on a problem with the system saying there was a trigger at the fryer fire suppression but it did not. All wires had good connections and resistor was in place. All I could suspect was there was a joint in the wire else where and I was not going to hunt it down since I was there to diagnose the Ansul box with the switch inside it. It was the other guys who were the techs of the monitors company that had all the tools needed to locate that problem. Hope this info helps you out in other jobs with fire alarm systems.
dont know if its relatable but the school im at had a sewage back up coming out of the floor drains we were scrambling around to disable the pumps and close all the bathrooms and turn the water off while cleaning up the mess. was coming out of drinking fountains drains and some sinks but no toilets.
Most likely a lift station has stopped operating it is extremely important that the lift stations have regular checks and maintenance as this will happen if your pumps stop running, regular maintenance like amp readings, correct rotation, sequencer testing, high-level alarm testing as well as your other floats, if it uses mechanical floats must be done
@@nics-systems-electric Interesting! Also, is it common to have systems you work on where loads of devices are nonfunctional? I'm obviously not a technician but that would be a major red flag for me if any institution shrugs off faulty/inoperable life safety equipment.
Instead of measuring resistance it's better to check voltage on CT-x module input . At normal conditions there should be 7-8,5V. Without proper resistor, voltage goes up to 19 V. Alarm condition starts below 3 Volts
I think I was testing the circuit for end of line resistor once disconnected from the module to ensure the zone hadn't been shorted out causing the alarm
Yeah, while you are at it, also check for voltages between each input terminal and earth ground, There is just no reason to waste time disconnecting any wires while troubleshooting. Afterall, it is the voltage level at the input that initiates various condition such as ground fault/trouble/alarm. The QuickStart is a lot older than you, LOL !!!!
@ 1:06The flip side to the Sun records 45 of the Gentrys Song "Cinnamon Girl" is " I Just Got The News" My copy is th emono Mix, but There was a stereo if I am not wrong Canadian Mix later released. I know 99% of every 45 and Lp in my collection. over 10k 45 rpm records and a few thousand Lps!
At my school, one time after a fire grill we went in and then it started going off again. We had to evacuate but they couldn't turn it off. So we get extra time to play We could not get in. We could only stay outside.
A multimeter in resistance mode puts out a small amount of current/voltage. If you probed the circuit "backwards" this could look like a low resistance to the resistance measuring circuit in the alarm module.
My 11th or 12th grade year. Our high school alarm system had a bug and for almost an hour ever 2 to 3 minutes after being turned off, the alarm would sound again so the entire system was shut down for the rest of the day.
@nics-systems-electric there was, but it took nearly a day to figure out the issue. Being a student, they didn't tell me/anyone anything, of course. just a glitch in the system, I guess.
Great video! How come you said this pullstation doesn’t work? And how did the security system go off and how does the battery drain and the panel shut off when the sirens go off? Keep up the great work.
There is a pull station that doesn't work in one of the portables. The security system was set off by the door that is shown a couple times in the girl washroom where the door contact is too far away from the magnet so we had to make an adjustment on Monday. Security system power supplies are tiny and don't put out much power so unlike a fire alarm system when they go into alarm they take power from the battery as well as the normal power supply to get more power for the sirens so if it's going off for hours eventually it will drain the battery
@@nics-systems-electric It should not go on forever as the default bell time out for a DSC system is 4 minute, and if the alarm triggered on the same zone again, the system should ignore the the circuit after swinger shut down.
Thanks for watching. If you're interested in seeing more of these portables check out one of my favourite videos here czcams.com/video/NEqfLdOITAE/video.html
I believe you should get a main control panel
@@COSMIC_SECRET I have several
That was a good video, I didn’t know how portables were moved!@@nics-systems-electric
Hey bro, how are you? How is life?
I'm an IT guy and this entire process reminds me of so many times tracking down weird issues. Makes you go insane then that final moment where you find the problem it is just amazing.
It kills having other people with me like that. Usually distracting. Sometimes very helpful tho.
Never trust labels that can be moved 100%, even if you did them yourself.
Came here to say this lmao
I'm from an IT background and if I had a problem where the monitoring /diag tool says it's one device but that device is showing its operating normally, then my first instinct is to look at all the other devices to see if they are working normally.
You need to completely destroy the place demolish all the buildings and then you realise that Janice the cleaner unplugged the power cable to vacuum
Update on the situation we had a technician come out on Monday. Me and the tech put every portable into trouble temporarily one at a time to get all the modules labelled properly. The problem module was working perfectly fine so we did not replace it personally I would have anyways, however the tech left us a spare module to put in place if it acts up again. The long-term solution is to replace the system. We did have our company that deals with notifier go through a walk-through of the building with us. So we did get a quote to replace the system with notifier. It would not be a full addressable swap, but a direct replacement with addressable smokes and modules and leaving conventional zones. But replacing bells with the one for one upgrade of horn strobes for now and then likely coming back later and adding more as horn strobes are not as effective as bells. However this summer is extremely busy with other system upgrades and annual testing as well as moving several portables school to school. so this upgrade would not be done until spring break or winter break of the 2023/2024 school year.
oh bloody hell with these quickstart series. :\ sometimes Simplex and Edwards are decent brands except Quickstart series.
@@josephfrye7342 some of EST's products are not bad. Simplex products aren't terrible however their customer service is so as a company they are not good
@@nics-systems-electric Simplex is mainly recognized for their products. If it wasn’t for JCI (and mostly their business model), Simplex would be even more prevalent and probably run circles around Honeywell’s brands. But it’s nice to see the quickstart finally get what’s coming to it. Please keep it and durability test it. Plug the slc into 120v and watch the carnage.
@Marc Leslie as far as coolness and the nice sound I do prefer the bells but I have to look at it from a realistic standpoint and realize that the strobes are the future with less current draw more reliable
Good morning @@nics-systems-electric
No idea what any of this is, but thanks for helping me procrastinate from cleaning for another 70 minutes
This is one of my favourite comments I don't have to give some complicated response lol
Me too.. it’s so fascinating seeing the troubleshooting… so z z z z … I’m back 🥹😬
It's a fire alarm dumb
next video: welcome back to durability testing today we’re testing est panel
Thats Funny And So True !
Lol
That’s the next video
And what panel screams “quality”, well a quick start of course!!!
@nics-systems-electric: As a fellow fire alarm tech, for future reference with EST / Kidde fire alarm panels when a module/detector, etc. goes into alarm / trouble condition the panel should also show the module's serial number (this same number would match the serial number sticker on the module itself). Granted, that is dependent on if the original installer/programmer kept the module's serial number in programming. On that type of panel, try the status button to see if additional info shows the active module's serial number. That serial number can make it easier to troubleshoot and narrow down the possibilities of what is causing the fault / issue.
That's a good call. Thanks for the tip. I admit I got complete tunnel vision looking at the labelling trying to find it that way which is obviously something to avoid while troubleshooting. and look at the whole picture. But I should've known better. I even did use the status light to check for any helpful information, I should've considered that. Thanks again for the tip
@@nics-systems-electric Skipping steps in troubleshooting... especially when on call-in was something I worked to stop doing.
Gather information (Symptoms, Errors, what has happened, what steps have already been done), Question contact/user (to confirm details -- say it back to confirm it is heard/understood correctly, and as much details), Identify symptoms (as may be some not noticed), Determine if any changes have been done, if so when/what, duplicate (confirm the symptoms and errors are still there... and it hasn't just resolved itself), most important... resolve one issue at a time. At points you seemed to start, then jumped to doing something else, but with the security system and fire alarms interconnected... that would be harder to do.
@@nics-systems-electric Been there, done that w/ the "Tunnel Vision" happening. :) I recently had a Kidde VS system that would randomly pop the dreaded "System Ground Fault" message that would last for a few seconds on the signaling line circuit (SLC). Tore the SLC apart several times trying to isolate / segment down to locate the cause, and banged my head against the wall. Turned out to be a faulty switch on a sprinkler tamper valve that was causing the ground fault condition. I forget what I had done, but I had managed to get the panel to say what SLC device had the fault on it and once that happened figuring out the exact cause was super simple. It's all good in the end. :)
@@nics-systems-electric Part of it is you were too trusting in the labeling. Incorrect documentation is a fact of life. Don't be too quick to judge, but consider it when things don't add up.
This is fascinating to me -- I work in the tech/IT side of systems engineering but have always been curious what sys engineering means to some of my peers in other industries! Subscribed.
Accurate labeling is important. When the system is installed every point needs to be tested and verified for accuracy before it is signed off by the intaller, fire department and owner. annual testing should also verify accuracy. Failures of many parties led to this issue being this difficult to troubleshoot. Hopefully lessons were learned during this and this will help in future trouble shooting.
It appears that it was accurate between the sensor and the front panel, but the modules themselves were not properly labeled. Apparently that's not checked as part of the annual. Nor would it really need to be as it's not safety critical. It's just for the tech's convenience.
This was just terrible troubleshooting. He lept to a rash conclusion without any supporting evidence and then went about handling the situation as though his idea it was software was correct. This was so drawn out because his approach was miopic. First rule in a situation like this is DO NOT FIXATE. All he had to do was keep an open mind. He closed his mind and convinced himself the first thing he thought of was the answer and that decision tied him up in knots.
Instead of grabbing the first thing he thought of as correct and thus not even thinking about others, he should have said software could be causing this but it might be something else entirely. And kept looking to see what else could also be the cause. He didn't keep looking because he was convinced he was already right.
@@johnrauner2515 that's not true I never once said this is the problem for sure if I didn't have an open mind the problem wouldn't have been solved
@@johnrauner2515 I agree it's a poor example, but it's not like I've never gone down the wrong rabbit hole. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. He looks to be pretty young. Hopefully he learns from it.
My favourite is building P&ID or other diagrams, that have “TO BE FIELD VERIFIED”
This is so cool. I love electric videos(battery’s, ups) and troubleshooting
Reminds me of dealing with all the quarks of the fire system at a large museum I worked for. That thing was so temperamental (FCI) and only myself and 2 others knew how to troubleshoot it. Made for some long days and nights.
my old school had an EST system in which we would have “fire drills” every few days.
Special EST feature some of the best surprise drills out there
@@nics-systems-electric My district *only* uses EST, we had a few "surprise" drills
@@nics-systems-electric fr
Yep, one year in college I lived in a dorm/apartment that had EST alarms and panel. Fire alarms went off (whether it was a prank, burnt food, or system failure) almost every week!
@@nics-systems-electric My school uses EST, get surprise drills every once and a while. However I think this is more because of the large amount of pull stations in opened and unattended classrooms, could also be both. EST is popular around where I live
Best 1 hour and 10 minutes of my day
Thanks glad you enjoyed
Yea
I think Mr. Quickstart needs to be replaced with a nice Notifier NFS
Yeah couple weeks after this we did a walk-through of the building with our notifier guys to get a quote for replacement
If the quick start gets replaced with an nfs, will there be fire suppression
@@jacobflanigan6343 not unless the school has servers that they need to protect usually suppression systems are only for pressurized server rooms
@@nics-systems-electric will there be a video on replacing that system?
@@EASsirenVids01 yes I will most likely make a video if I'm part of this replacement project which I likely will be and as for the other comment about suppression system no suppression system has nothing to do with a fire alarm upgrade and they are only put in place in specialty areas which this building does not have any that would require such system
Yeah man, did commercial fire alarms for many years not doing it anymore but. I want to see some ground fault videos. I was the guy you sent to find the ground fault and I was damn good at finding and repairing them.
I love the video u uploaded today. Keep up the good work!
Thanks
Well done lad, you got there in the end. As an electrician/ security tech for 30 years I have seen it all until tomorrow when a new fault will have to be solved. Some tips for you, when first arriving on-site assess the complete situation, then a plan of action. Do your own detective work, it’s easy to get lost listening to peoples opinion of the issue. When trying to identify a circuit or zone, put a short or fault on it and check panel shows same, this would have identified your mislabelling issue. Although they are probably not mislabelled, some fool has had the lids off and put them on wrong. From the UK, I have not seen that panel but I am sure I could wire and work it no problem😂. Addressable system devices with no dip switches are no good for heat of the moment fault finding. Still, it was a good video and I am glad to see it’s not just me that gets stuff like that. All the best to you.
It’s cool how you can help with the fire alarms in systems are you a part of the district? How are you able to do these type of jobs? Love your videos❤
Yes I work with the electrical department of the school district
Interesting stuff. The fact that you drive from the portables to the main school and back so many times instead of just walking is the most American thing ever though! 😂
I'm in Canada and when you've got 40 pounds of tools it's easier to drive lol
I LOVE this kind of problem solving in IT
It’s a good day when I get a notification that one of my favorite CZcamsrs uploaded a video 😊😊
Thanks for the support glad you enjoy
Also nice radio music choice lol 😊
Would be useful if the red lights stayed illuminated on the module when it alarms... At least for a few seconds so that you can more easily spot it.
For sure
Seriously, status lights are useless if you see the damn things
Obviously it's a QuickStart and I see why EST discontinued the QuickStart and I've never saw one in person. I see EST3s and EST iO panels and those I think do slightly better than QuickStarts.
man a long time has came for this channel, i remember when this was called pickle700 or something like that but keep up the content
This is first vid of yours I have watched. I am the one at work that handles fire alarm problems. Not certified, just onsite guy with knowledge.
I felt your pain as you were trying to figure out the problem. I was telling you to bypass the SLC when you were disconnecting the zone circuit and then you did. 😁 yea!
I keep some emergency rations in my work vehicle. My choice is a couple of cans of pull tab top chili (I can eat it cold if I have to), a couple plastic spoons and some bottles of water. It’s hard to think straight when you are hungry or thirsty. Sometimes you have to stop and fuel up so you can figure out the problem. Sometimes fueling up also helps get your patience back.
Like your tool bag with pockets for everything. I think I will get one like it.
I think you have the brains to work through problems like that panel. Sometimes it’s easy to get stuck on the idea that the problem is “A” and you have to remember to stop and reevaluate, is there a “B”!
I have nine months before I retire, you have a bit more😝. Make it a goal to work a tiny bit smarter every day!
Best wishes,
Jeff
Hey thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed the video and for sure can't think well when you're hungry lol
12:13
"That's a $250 fine, sir."
JK 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Lol i liked it when you said la la la la la to the man 😂
I didn't see it in the video, but did you check for any induced voltage? Not just coming off the dry contacts for the module, but also pulling the SLC off completely from the panel and checking. I completely understand the labeling problem though, that's quite a headache, so you're literally chasing ghosts if you don't know what you're looking for exactly.
Hope that low air wasn’t the dry pipe. Hopefully there’s a Pre Action System there also
No pre-action system just a wet system in the main building and dry system in the portables as well as the band hall building is a partial dry system the low air trouble is not actually there the panel just comes up with random stuff when it's resetting or has been messed with at all
Keep up there good work on here
Hey mate good video love the technology things
Nice video nick
I got to wonder, since its only the outdoor portable's going off, is it a wire that's shorting out somewhere from the building to the portable units?
If you were asking about the zone coming off of the modules in the E-house then no as I metered the zone that was in alarm and only read the end of line resistor not a short
I used to be a fire alarm enthusiast before joining the car wash community (do not join the car wash community, you will regret it) but even still this is fascinating. I love these kinds of videos of troubleshooting computer systems and whatnot, absolutely love it. Keep up the good work.
Join the tornado siren community
will you guys replace it this summer???
No at the time of making this video there was no plans for replacement however a couple weeks after we did a walk-through with our notifier guys and got a quote for replacement but we have too many other things going on this summer that this will probably be sometime in the 2023/2024 school year
@@nics-systems-electric
K that makes sense thanks
32:05
EST: Goes Back into Alarm
Nic: “God Da******”
At 1:01:47 is the exact moment I think you may have "fixed" the glitch. Wire just fell off was what was said. And it was not one of the 2 wires removed for testing from what I could see.
I believe it was a different zone altogether even if it was the right zone it was still solid contact until it broke as the wire didn't fall off it broke off from fatigue if it had been loose even still fire alarms are a normally open system so loose contact only will cause trouble not full alarm
Hey Nic, I Would Just Upgrade The Whole System To A Napco Gemini Commercial Combo Burglar/Fire Security System!
We do have a quote to replace the system with a real fire alarm system we will be installing a notifier system likely a 320
Combo panels are illegal in Canada and they’re crap anyway
@@NyxKemo someone finally said it I do agree. They are OK for residential but for commercial get a real System
Get this man his breakfast!
Great video, and really relatable, in the sense of rabbithole-troubleshooting, been guilty of that many-many times in my industry as well.
While the time spent diagnosing the control unit/brains of the machine could be considered “wasted time” by some, it actually provided a great learning opportunity to you (and us).
Confirmation-bias is super common when doing complex troubleshooting for extended periods of time😅
Thanks for the captions that explain the problem early on, as otherwise i would have had no idea what was going on.
It is sad-funny(or ironic?) that the module that was causing the alarms was right next to the one you were looking at.
When I realized that is ALSO my old middle school!! small world!!
biggest Lesson is never presume anything even in your own team/company there always going to be that one thing which slips even in years of checking verify verify verify
5:09, i love that among us poster on the wall over there.
thanks this was super interesting, i hope the breakfast ended up being worth it 😂
It was lol
Was the dialer bypassed as you working on the system
No the procedures here are to call in and put the system on test/disregard
I once was at a boarding school and the alarm went off in the middle of the night. my teacher joked it could be a caterpillar... it turned out to be a caterpillar! walking inside a part of the alarm system. LOL
The 3 bells pattern. Is that pretty standard in the usa? I live in the uk and we fit fire angel smoke alarms in houses, they have the same pattern, 3 beeps - most brands just have continuous short beeps. In commercial fire alarms here bells arent normally used - we have sirens or vsrious types - some are a constant sound, some are a "repeating climb" noise. But the rules are the same type must be fitted throughout a building.
Amazed to see those portable classrooms have sprinklers in them! My school had some portable units but i think the rules for them in the uk are far less strict - sprinklers are required in far less places here.
This is Canada depending on the municipality sprinklers are required portables not all of them require it mine does
Well it sounds like they definitely need a new system.
We have a quote for replacement
This is really interesting. How does one even get into this type of work?
the fact that they are registered / labeled wrong really really suck ! You trust on test when it was installed would have been caught ! all in a day of headaches.
12:00 I was a bit confused here how you'd be able to measure the loop resistance while it's in an active measurement circuit... but then you measured 0 Ω and tripped an alarm so I guess that answers that ;-)
When playing with it the first time and tripping a different zone... me as a computer tech goes... wait... that was a different area... As I have seen many times items are mislabelled. I prefer to confirm the device is correct device as part of my early troubleshooting, especially when playing with what should have been the device tripped something which shouldn't have been related. Figuring out which device it was at that point would have saved a lot of back and forth, especially when jumping it out didn't resolve the issue.
Also... as soon as I was on-site, would have made sure whoever was responsible had notified everyone monitoring (911, security, etc) that you were working on the system before I even opened a panel or touched a button.
Yes for sure you can never trust the labelling too much and that got reinforced into my mind that day and yes definitely notify the monitoring company before going hands on which in that case I was OK to start touching stuff as the system was already in alarm and had already called out so it couldn't call out again until reset
I don't think this guy has the skills to be touching a system like this. He wasted most of the day running around in circles because he decided the first thing he thought of was the answer - the firmware upgrade was the problem. From there he fixated on this to the point of being myopic.
This was just terrible troubleshooting. He reached a rash conclusion with no supporting evidence to justify it and then did nothing to confirm it as the cause. Eventually hours later he isolated the data channel into the panel to see if the fault went away which it did. That confirmed firmware wasn't the problem. But he should have done that test the moment he decided the firmware was the problem to confirm his conclusion or exclude it. That's just basic troubleshooting. If you think something is the cause then figure out how to confirm it and do that. Instead he spent the day running back and forth between opposite sides of the school even to the point where the two of them actually wondered around the school checking all the smokies. That right there tells you these guys shouldn't be touching this system.
The moment I saw all those remote modules on that wall I knew wrong labeling was something to watch for. Especially once he'd isolated the suspect module and the fault remained. I would have then isolated the last half of those modules and seen if the fault went away. If it did then the fault was in that last set of modules (about 4 in total). If the fault remained I'd have isolated the first half as well and seen if the fault went away. Either way, isolating one half of them (and if need be the other half) would cut in half the number that then had to be isolated one by one. to find the faulty one. This should have taken them less than an hour.
I also notice in one of his comments here he's wanting to replace the whole system with a new one thinking somehow that's going to make things better. When in reality this system works perfectly fine, there's nothing wrong with it apart from the occasional defect which all systems of this size have from time to time.
Guys like this can cost organizations a fortune. Not only in the man hours spent on this due to how he went about it, but also in the money he's encouraging the school to waste putting in a new system to replace one that doesn't need replacing.
Again, myopia. Just jumping from one rash unsupported conclusion to another. He's blaming the system for the massive amount of time spent finding this fault and hasn't learned a thing. It wasn't the system that caused this massive amount of time to be wasted. It was him.
@@johnrauner2515 I did not jump to any conclusions not once did I say this is the problem for sure part of troubleshooting is you have to look at all possibilities
Checking all of the smoke detectors was not my decision and with something I was asked to do
Also not my decision to replace the system and it does not work fine at all you don't know the history
7:19 man a lot of fire going on there, couldnt even see anything.
Hey just curious what kinda car were u driving in this video?
03 Honda pilot
When he took off the module that you thought was an alarm and a portable other than 1 when it's in trouble you should have known right away that the labels were messed up.
Are you contracted by the school as like a 3rd party, or do you directly work for the school like are hired as a school employee?
Have you tried completely restarting every panel ? As in disconnect power and battery, wait 10 seconds or so and then plug it all back in? Sometimes system reset might not work in my experience
Watch the video through and you will see
He did that several times.
Nice video!
Thanks
The security system sounds like one of those keypads used in a DSC security system.
one little gripe about EST; in alarm or activation, the LEDS should be solid Red like notifier modules instead of blinking. Their smokes do the same thing. That might have helped a bit identifying which module is acting up. Really sucks the labeling was wrong lmao. It's either that or someone put the wrong description??
That's what was kind of throwing me off to as I am looking for solid red however we had blinking red for whatever reason I'm not a expert on EST so I'm not sure and yeah the labelling was completely goofed up
@@nics-systems-electric Yeah I get ya bro, I'd be looking for solid red as well because I'm so used to Notifier with my company, and Simplex as my hobby systems. I would have been thrown off with y'all lmao. I'm not used to EST either but I'm trying to get into them. I hope they fix that damn labeling
@@YourLocalFireAlarmTech yeah the labelling was corrected on Monday when I worked with the EST tech
4:08 if it’s connected to the network, yes. You would be able to view it on APC SmartConnect on that model. I don’t believe that one allows any other types of monitoring (self monitoring/free).
My Friend, In Edwards if you didnt enable in the program disable event to restore to normal, you cant disable input alarm devices while they are in active, short cut way is note down device address and panel and card address and then disconnect SLC wire from panel i mean power down field device and then press reset on the panel now alarm will restore and now disable and then reconnect your SLC back to the panel. now you are good.
U got a rally good car u do hove a good car u do hove a good car u hove how are u ok today keep up there good work on here
The firmware update probably scrambled the module addresses. The bad module is a separate issue.
Seems about as complicated as a modern diesel pickup 😆
Been in Alarm buzz started in 1979 this was painful 😫 to watch...
Don't watch it then
Good video 👍 buddy
Thank you
Hi nic how were the fire alarms going off
I was watching this last night and i fell asleep and when i went to check my tablet ib the morning it was at 2% and it was on a linus tech tips video
Linus is awesome though so it's all worth it
Nice video
Thanks
This is not surprising for EST.
1:03:37 They mould the phoenix connectors into the module? The whole point of those green connectors is to make hot swaps easy. What a batty design.
So whenever you replace they system with a Notifier System, whether that would be winter break or spring break. But anyway, to my understanding of that comment you made, you are not doing a full addressable swap. So does that mean that you are going to replace the currently addressable smoke detectors with FSP-951s? And for the pull stations, are those going to remain the same or possible lower them for ADA compliance? And then what panel are you going to put in? I feel like a Notifier NFS-320C would be too small for that building, so is going to be an NFS2-640C?
Just a 320 will do they don't need to SLC loops or more than 318 devices and they don't need network capability so I assume we're probably doing a 320 and yes all addressable devices will be changed and because we are not altering the pull stations they should be able to be grandfathered in at their current height
@@nics-systems-electric Oh okay, so the existing conventional zones will just remain conventional then.
@@IanGSully yes
@@nics-systems-electric So this will be interesting to see when the replacement happens.
@@IanGSully yes all the parts are there now just waiting for a time to put it in
You had to deal with Every Single Trouble plus a dead security system 💀
lol !!!! Been in the industry 35 years and this is the first time I heard of these. Good one !!! Do you happen to have any other good ones for other brands ?
@@jrepairman mmmmm. Simplex isn't all that simple
looks like you where very busy
We had an EST quick start system at one of our pools and I can promise you that I will never put an EST quick start system in my house. Simplex 4100U was terrible but with all of the horror stories about EST quick start panels, I would rather have a Simplex 4100U than this system.
They stopped making them years ago.
hey nick thats crazy that the fire alarms going off i know you cheak out the entire school for alarms going into truble
As someone who messes with electricity, sensors and a temperamental dodge truck with dash gauges acting up. That one loose wire that popped out as the other guy was messing with it could have caused all the problems you were seeing. Wire is loose and causing a poor connection to the module. When you tightened the screw back down on it, it took the resistance away. That is all it takes to throw those system out of whack. I had been called out on a problem with the system saying there was a trigger at the fryer fire suppression but it did not. All wires had good connections and resistor was in place. All I could suspect was there was a joint in the wire else where and I was not going to hunt it down since I was there to diagnose the Ansul box with the switch inside it. It was the other guys who were the techs of the monitors company that had all the tools needed to locate that problem. Hope this info helps you out in other jobs with fire alarm systems.
Id suggest you get a bwc (body worh camera)
I would like to see a 320 or 640 in that electrical room!
That is the plan
i dont know why youtube recommended this to me, but i am glad it did
dont know if its relatable but the school im at had a sewage back up coming out of the floor drains we were scrambling around to disable the pumps and close all the bathrooms and turn the water off while cleaning up the mess. was coming out of drinking fountains drains and some sinks but no toilets.
Most likely a lift station has stopped operating it is extremely important that the lift stations have regular checks and maintenance as this will happen if your pumps stop running, regular maintenance like amp readings, correct rotation, sequencer testing, high-level alarm testing as well as your other floats, if it uses mechanical floats must be done
@NIC’S - SYSTEMS & ELECTRIC happend durning a football game too.
A malfunctioning fire alarm is a right pain in the drain. That can cause a panic that can lead to injuries.
i like the "La La La La"
is this the same middle school that had the false alarm back in November of 2022
Yes it sure is
Hi how are u ok today u do a rally good job on here keep up there good work on here I hop we can be friends at we'll be good too do at let me know
thumbs up for the security mind of your video editing.... blurring the video so the keys cant be copied... 10/10
Hey thanks for recognizing that! that actually means a lot most just talk crap about it.
Is it important to set the clock on the security system or is that just a formality?
If the time isn't correct it's not a big deal but if it loses power completely it will have a trouble on it until you set the clock
@@nics-systems-electric Interesting! Also, is it common to have systems you work on where loads of devices are nonfunctional? I'm obviously not a technician but that would be a major red flag for me if any institution shrugs off faulty/inoperable life safety equipment.
@@lackedpuppet9022 no it's rare to find any devices not working let alone lots of them the life safety equipment gets tested annually
Instead of measuring resistance it's better to check voltage on CT-x module input . At normal conditions there should be 7-8,5V. Without proper resistor, voltage goes up to 19 V. Alarm condition starts below 3 Volts
I think I was testing the circuit for end of line resistor once disconnected from the module to ensure the zone hadn't been shorted out causing the alarm
Good information though thanks for the tip
Yeah, while you are at it, also check for voltages between each input terminal and earth ground, There is just no reason to waste time disconnecting any wires while troubleshooting. Afterall, it is the voltage level at the input that initiates various condition such as ground fault/trouble/alarm. The QuickStart is a lot older than you, LOL !!!!
@ 1:06The flip side to the Sun records 45 of the Gentrys Song "Cinnamon Girl" is " I Just Got The News" My copy is th emono Mix, but There was a stereo if I am not wrong Canadian Mix later released.
I know 99% of every 45 and Lp in my collection. over 10k 45 rpm records and a few thousand Lps!
Alternative title: iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit’s stupid Saturday everyone!
At my school, one time after a fire grill we went in and then it started going off again. We had to evacuate but they couldn't turn it off. So we get extra time to play We could not get in. We could only stay outside.
They really brought out the B team to fix this one lmao 😅
@1:30 You can take the boy out of middle school, but not the middle school out of the boy. 🤣
12:02 How the hell do you activate the alarm with the meter? It isn't actually shorting the terminals, right?
I guess it is enough resistance to put it into alarm
@@nics-systems-electric Huh, that's weird.
A multimeter in resistance mode puts out a small amount of current/voltage. If you probed the circuit "backwards" this could look like a low resistance to the resistance measuring circuit in the alarm module.
@@eDoc2020 That and this system sucks so much.
Any updates on that system?
Pinned comment
@@nics-systems-electric ok
My 11th or 12th grade year. Our high school alarm system had a bug and for almost an hour ever 2 to 3 minutes after being turned off, the alarm would sound again so the entire system was shut down for the rest of the day.
Then they would've had to have someone or multiple people on firewatch until system was back
@nics-systems-electric there was, but it took nearly a day to figure out the issue. Being a student, they didn't tell me/anyone anything, of course. just a glitch in the system, I guess.
54:22 i didnt know those panels had christmas tree mode
Great video! How come you said this pullstation doesn’t work? And how did the security system go off and how does the battery drain and the panel shut off when the sirens go off? Keep up the great work.
There is a pull station that doesn't work in one of the portables. The security system was set off by the door that is shown a couple times in the girl washroom where the door contact is too far away from the magnet so we had to make an adjustment on Monday. Security system power supplies are tiny and don't put out much power so unlike a fire alarm system when they go into alarm they take power from the battery as well as the normal power supply to get more power for the sirens so if it's going off for hours eventually it will drain the battery
@@nics-systems-electricwould you have replaced it?
@@dutchwolf2675 can't remember it's been a while since we looked at it
Hello @@nics-systems-electric
@@nics-systems-electric It should not go on forever as the default bell time out for a DSC system is 4 minute, and if the alarm triggered on the same zone again, the system should ignore the the circuit after swinger shut down.
it happens quite alot were people dont label things right. : / more than people think.