As someone that lives on the T4, i really wish they would give us newer trains. Dont get me wrong, i love the tangaras but i would be nice to have something a bit more modern and comfortable.
I think they should abandon double deck trains for the suburban system and move back to single deck trains. Real capacity is higher, single deck are faster, they're more accessible for passengers, you can have more doors, they would draw less power so your power supply issue is fixed.
It's funny, when the T4 line (then known as the Illawara line and then Sutherland line) had heaps of Tangaras back in the early 90s, they were considered favoured. Now the tables have turned and the same trains are all old.
Tangara vs K set ngl K sets hits different for me (reversible seats too!) I think it was just the unique design and promotions at the time that made it so successful, and the fact it was Australian built again
The problem with the T4 is it tries to service too wide of an area in the southern end of Sydney. Creating two extra lines, one from Wolli Creek to head south along Brighton and interchange at Caringbah to continue to Cronulla and one line to parallel that course but from Hurstville south to Miranda would make more geographical sense. Thay would free up capacity to Sutherland, and the remaining branch in the Shire can terminate at Miranda/Caringbah, so more express services can be run from Wollongong. And for the love of god fix the alignment along the coast towards Wollongong, it needs to follow the Princes motorway and not wind through Helensburgh.
@@SydneyTrainspotter just more orbital routes in general. A ring of railroad roughly every 5 km from the CBD to divert movement across the suburbs away from the city centre and alleviate cross town traffic. Every large city with the capacity to do so does it, Sydney is no different.
My station is Rockdale and so I only take T4 to anywhere, so far it’s been okay not great. I wish the train could be faster but they do need to upgrade the power plant if they wanted to run newer model. Raining seems tend to disrupt the power line frequently.
T4 are getting the most frequent services. Services are mostly reliable and fast. Spare a thought for pockets of sydney which gets infrequent, slow and lousy services. If T4 is upgarding to Waratach fleets, dump your Tangaras to the steelyards, not onto other train lines.
The #1 reason for building the new rolling stock here was the disastrous d sets which are 4 years old and still not in service because of designs in operation mainly doors Building trains he make sense we are one of the few states that have not built a train here for decades
The NIF D set problem was just bad planning and issues all combined - the main issue was just the removal of guards and guards losing their jobs, hence the Union sought to find physical defects in the trains to prevent them from entering service. In the end, the union got what they wanted, at a HEFTY price! The political issues were more serious than the physical ones, after all no train fleet made in Australia or internationally had ever been flawless!
Building rolling stock here seems a bit useless because of how limited Australia’s resources are atm - we haven’t built a train in so long! Also, it would take so much longer, a process that could even go up to a decade
@@SydneyTrainspotterI'm sure it would have not been as hefty if the government acknowledged the defects and spent the money to fix them, the cost of mothballing the new fleet over the last few years is actually more expensive then it would have cost to fix them but because the liberal government wanted to take shortcuts on the new fleet and cut out the union and guards who mostly want passenger safety they dug their own hole.
Well Cronulla is a terminus so I wouldn't be looking at its boarding times. However the T4 gets extremely packed at Sutherland, Waterfall & Wolli Creek (during morn peaks), and at Martin Place, Town Hall, Central & Redfern (during arvo peaks)
Awesome video!! I take the T4 and the T1 line and I'm always wondering why T4 gets tangaras with crusty seats and graffiti-ed end carriages when the T1 gets cleaner trains :P But out of curiosity, do you know why the T4 platform (24-25) at Central station is underground whereas all the other platform are above ground? It always makes me feel like a sweaty mole when I have to wait 10 minutes at platform 25 lol
@@anyanyanyanyanyany3551has explained this correctly! Same goes for Redfern, the ESRL is isolated from pretty much every other track, with the City Circle meeting it at Town Hall only! But overall the T4 runs much lower
I feel for commuters who have to use the T4 regularly, Only having Tangaras which are now very dated and not the most comfortable. The state government needs to upgrade the power supply capability this would allow Waratahs to service the line which I'm sure would be welcomed by all who use the T4 line regularly.
It depends on how many, to my knowledge 1 train has been okay. Waratahs (both Series) were tested to Waterfall with just 1 fleet running, and the tests were good. However running many of them is where the problems start, that is why traffic was extremely controlled on the T4 during industrial action
Could you go into a bit more detail about how the More Trains more services program is going to add 30% peak capacity like transport NSW claims? From what I found it looks like that increase is going to come from the Hurstville Crossover Project but I don't understand how adding that crossover will allow for more trains to be scheduled. They said they'll switch the all stops Hurstville to Bondi Junction service from the lcoal tracks to the main tracks but surely that will impact the express services? Any insights on this?
I don’t actually know how they plan to increase T4 capacity because it is currently as good as it can get with the amount of track switches and Wolli Creek only have 2 upper platforms. I do share interest in your questions too. For the T8 it’s simple. T8 gets Waratahs from T3 displacement, those Waratahs serve extra Revesby trains (goes from 15-10 mins) and Macarthur trains stay the same. It could be similar for the T4, with T1 & T9 Tangaras likely being moved to here, and all Oscars going on those lines instead (after NIFs enter service)
Despite what people say about the Tangaras...at least theyre easier to sleep in as you dont have automated announcements waking you every few minutes on the newer trains. Its also the least of its problems...i appareciate its high frequency and ease to get to the city.
Shouldn't be Waratah trains putting less pressure on the grid than the Tangara since they use the newer and more power saving IGBT traction control motors? I think the Tangara will probably last as long as the C151s in Singapore last since they use the same traction control technology and from the same supplier (Mitsubishi Electric).
nah, I lived in Kings Cross for almost a year and the tangaras were a big no-no to me. Besides the awful smell and the old seats, the only thing I enjoyed was the quick access to Bondi Junction. I try to catch the SCO train instead of the T4 ones. Glad I moved to Mascot and the T8 waratahs (and another type whose name i forgot) are a huge improvement.
The other type you refer to is Milleniums :) Imo the Tangaras feel as tho they are a bad train, but at the end of the day transport for nsw has to distribute them somewhere after all, sadly it’s the T4!
The fact is they to give SCO there own Tracks, due to it being Express. and Metro coming to Sydenham, Which means most likely more T4 trains stopping at Sydenham, and SCO being stuck Behind. what they need to do, is make there own tracks for the SCO. and then SCO can run more frequent services. Because SCO is a really used Route for people going up and the down the coast. And with D Sets coming out soon. They need to Upgrade only Wollongong. North Wollongong, Thirroul, Helensburgh, Waterfall, Sutherland, Redfern, Central. Wolli Creek & Hurstville are useless Stops. When they run T4 Services to both Stops anyways!
The situation has changed since I made this video. It was announced that St Peters and Erskineville will be served by the T8 (likely till the 2025 timetable change). This means that the T4 will remain as it is for the foreseeable year, at least until the metro south west is fully complete. The problem with the SCO exists already, trains experience this problem of 'waiting' due to Wolli Creek having only 2 platforms. If Wolli Creek had 4 outdoor platforms, this problem would be eliminated completely. I must say that the idea that the stops on the SCO at Wolli Creek being completely useless is a bit ridiculous, most people get off at Wolli Creek (airport connection) and Hurstville (working precinct + major transport hub for all stops services), so these stops are EXTREMELY important in increasing morning & afternoon peak capacity. [It would be like saying that Blacktown and Parramatta are useless stops for the BMT - I think comparing it to that line brings the picture better] As a T4 local, this is my experience. But I do find your ideas interesting! SCO could (and probably will) run on the Sydenham Platforms 3 and 4 tracks once the T8 is removed from there completely.
T4 line has the worst train in Sydney no doubt,You can't even see where you are,because there is no display even the announcement is very boring.They only say the station name for one time nothing else.Whenever you are travelling T4 line you must be very careful otherwise you'll have to miss your destination.
@@SydneyTrainspotter yeah I was more thinking it as an interim until they upgrade the power supply, the K sets will be long gone before they get any new trains for the T4
I think they should abandon double deck trains for the suburban system and move back to single deck trains. Real capacity is higher, single deck are faster, they're more accessible for passengers, you can have more doors, they would draw less power so your power supply issue is fixed.
This is true! But Sydney trains has never been a rapid transit system like Sydney metro (with the exception of the ESRL), so that means that trains wouldn’t perform as fast as metro anyways! Abandoning the double deck would also cause mayhem for the public, as most members of the public would disagree - all the wasted capacity!
@@SydneyTrainspotter Yes it was, Bradfield's original vision which began with the City Circle, Harbour Bridge, Bankstown and East Hills lines (with further plans for additional lines to the Northern Beaches, one to the Southern suburbs, one to the Eastern Suburbs as well as one to the Inner West) - this was all based on the rapid transit systems he witnessed in London, New York, Philadelphia and Boston. His plan had the same bones as Sydney Metro does now - fast, single-deck trains with more doors per side running high frequency service across the city; they ran 30 trains per hour, more than Metro plans to do for many years, on the combined section of T4+T8+T3 to St James back then, and the original signalling design was for 40 trains per hour!
@@SydneyTrainspotter yes at the time it did - the trains were literally modelled on the Interborough Rapid Transit lines in New York, the system Bradfield put in place had signalling capable of over 30 trains per hour in the city, they ran 30 trains per hour for a number of years and at the time they were innovative and comparable to world leaders in NY London and Philadelphia. How IS that Not 1930s Rapid Transit?
@@kyletopfer7818 I am saying that they had PLANNED to build rapid transit but didn’t actually build it. Models may have been based on rapid transit, but the actual network was NOT the same as the NY one you are referring to! Bradfield may have planned for it, but his plans never fully came into action :/
Whilst I agree with your opinion I also think that fleet variety is the last thing that Transport for NSW considers when assigning fleets, they prioritise convenience over small things such as variety - eg Tangaras are all stored at Hornsby and Mortdale, so they run T4, T1 & T9. Waratahs run every line except T4 because every storage facility can have Waratahs except Mortdale
@@TrainsForNSWVlogs I completely understand, I was not living in Sydney when they rolled out so I can imagine seeing them for the first time as the future trains would have been quite exciting.
As someone that lives on the T4, i really wish they would give us newer trains. Dont get me wrong, i love the tangaras but i would be nice to have something a bit more modern and comfortable.
Me too :)
Travelling on G sets with reversible seats isn't as bad as regular Tangaras, but there's still no desto!
@SydneyTrainspotter are you forgetting about the H sets
@@haydenroberts7567 the Oscars only run morning peak all stop services and express services so that doesn’t count as they have an hourly frequency ;)
I think they should abandon double deck trains for the suburban system and move back to single deck trains. Real capacity is higher, single deck are faster, they're more accessible for passengers, you can have more doors, they would draw less power so your power supply issue is fixed.
I think you've got an issue if you like the T sets that goes for anyone liking T sets, I'll only rife a T awt if it's converted into a G set
It's funny, when the T4 line (then known as the Illawara line and then Sutherland line) had heaps of Tangaras back in the early 90s, they were considered favoured. Now the tables have turned and the same trains are all old.
Tangara vs K set
ngl K sets hits different for me (reversible seats too!)
I think it was just the unique design and promotions at the time that made it so successful, and the fact it was Australian built again
The problem with the T4 is it tries to service too wide of an area in the southern end of Sydney. Creating two extra lines, one from Wolli Creek to head south along Brighton and interchange at Caringbah to continue to Cronulla and one line to parallel that course but from Hurstville south to Miranda would make more geographical sense. Thay would free up capacity to Sutherland, and the remaining branch in the Shire can terminate at Miranda/Caringbah, so more express services can be run from Wollongong. And for the love of god fix the alignment along the coast towards Wollongong, it needs to follow the Princes motorway and not wind through Helensburgh.
Transport along the King Georges Road area from Strathfield to Hurstville is another really important thing!
@@SydneyTrainspotter just more orbital routes in general. A ring of railroad roughly every 5 km from the CBD to divert movement across the suburbs away from the city centre and alleviate cross town traffic. Every large city with the capacity to do so does it, Sydney is no different.
My station is Rockdale and so I only take T4 to anywhere, so far it’s been okay not great. I wish the train could be faster but they do need to upgrade the power plant if they wanted to run newer model. Raining seems tend to disrupt the power line frequently.
T4 are getting the most frequent services. Services are mostly reliable and fast. Spare a thought for pockets of sydney which gets infrequent, slow and lousy services. If T4 is upgarding to Waratach fleets, dump your Tangaras to the steelyards, not onto other train lines.
Totally agree! Although everyone hates Tangaras, the T4 is only efficient because it runs just them!
A commenter train I sometimes get confused which side they on but never went on platform 1 in Hurstville
The #1 reason for building the new rolling stock here was the disastrous d sets which are 4 years old and still not in service because of designs in operation mainly doors
Building trains he make sense we are one of the few states that have not built a train here for decades
The NIF D set problem was just bad planning and issues all combined - the main issue was just the removal of guards and guards losing their jobs, hence the Union sought to find physical defects in the trains to prevent them from entering service. In the end, the union got what they wanted, at a HEFTY price! The political issues were more serious than the physical ones, after all no train fleet made in Australia or internationally had ever been flawless!
Building rolling stock here seems a bit useless because of how limited Australia’s resources are atm - we haven’t built a train in so long! Also, it would take so much longer, a process that could even go up to a decade
Hmm UGL in Broadmeadow still makes new Frieght Locos!
@@SydneyTrainspotter just copy and paste the M set
@@SydneyTrainspotterI'm sure it would have not been as hefty if the government acknowledged the defects and spent the money to fix them, the cost of mothballing the new fleet over the last few years is actually more expensive then it would have cost to fix them but because the liberal government wanted to take shortcuts on the new fleet and cut out the union and guards who mostly want passenger safety they dug their own hole.
Yeah I think the T4 gets sometimes really crowded, (especially when I was going to Cronulla, a full 60 second stop!)
Well Cronulla is a terminus so I wouldn't be looking at its boarding times. However the T4 gets extremely packed at Sutherland, Waterfall & Wolli Creek (during morn peaks), and at Martin Place, Town Hall, Central & Redfern (during arvo peaks)
@@SydneyTrainspotter yeah true 👍
Awesome video!! I take the T4 and the T1 line and I'm always wondering why T4 gets tangaras with crusty seats and graffiti-ed end carriages when the T1 gets cleaner trains :P But out of curiosity, do you know why the T4 platform (24-25) at Central station is underground whereas all the other platform are above ground? It always makes me feel like a sweaty mole when I have to wait 10 minutes at platform 25 lol
i think the T4 trains travel on a much lower level than the other trains, hence why between Redfern to Martin Place it's always underground.
@@anyanyanyanyanyany3551has explained this correctly! Same goes for Redfern, the ESRL is isolated from pretty much every other track, with the City Circle meeting it at Town Hall only! But overall the T4 runs much lower
I feel for commuters who have to use the T4 regularly, Only having Tangaras which are now very dated and not the most comfortable. The state government needs to upgrade the power supply capability this would allow Waratahs to service the line which I'm sure would be welcomed by all who use the T4 line regularly.
20 minutes to city
Very good educational and research content. Well done.😂
I sense sarcasm- is that intended?
But thanks!
So the power grid will short out if the 4th generation EMU trains try to go further than Hurstville??
It depends on how many, to my knowledge 1 train has been okay. Waratahs (both Series) were tested to Waterfall with just 1 fleet running, and the tests were good. However running many of them is where the problems start, that is why traffic was extremely controlled on the T4 during industrial action
I dont mind tangaras as a t4 boy i just wish the windows weren't so foggy
Could you go into a bit more detail about how the More Trains more services program is going to add 30% peak capacity like transport NSW claims? From what I found it looks like that increase is going to come from the Hurstville Crossover Project but I don't understand how adding that crossover will allow for more trains to be scheduled. They said they'll switch the all stops Hurstville to Bondi Junction service from the lcoal tracks to the main tracks but surely that will impact the express services? Any insights on this?
I don’t actually know how they plan to increase T4 capacity because it is currently as good as it can get with the amount of track switches and Wolli Creek only have 2 upper platforms. I do share interest in your questions too.
For the T8 it’s simple. T8 gets Waratahs from T3 displacement, those Waratahs serve extra Revesby trains (goes from 15-10 mins) and Macarthur trains stay the same.
It could be similar for the T4, with T1 & T9 Tangaras likely being moved to here, and all Oscars going on those lines instead (after NIFs enter service)
@@SydneyTrainspotter Thanks for the reply! It'll be interesting to see how they'll make the T4 timetable work then.
Despite what people say about the Tangaras...at least theyre easier to sleep in as you dont have automated announcements waking you every few minutes on the newer trains.
Its also the least of its problems...i appareciate its high frequency and ease to get to the city.
I’d rather know where I am then be able to sleep on a 20 min ride tbh
@@SydneyTrainspotter True, every train has its pros and cons.
Power. Means we are stuck with the Tangara's. The quicker they can get rid of the Tangara's the better. I have lived on T4 for ever. 🔱🏳🌈
Shouldn't be Waratah trains putting less pressure on the grid than the Tangara since they use the newer and more power saving IGBT traction control motors? I think the Tangara will probably last as long as the C151s in Singapore last since they use the same traction control technology and from the same supplier (Mitsubishi Electric).
Waratahs have features such as destos, better AC, more cctv etc stuff like that which Tangaras simply don’t have
@@SydneyTrainspotter Oh my. These stuff are drawing that much power?
nah, I lived in Kings Cross for almost a year and the tangaras were a big no-no to me. Besides the awful smell and the old seats, the only thing I enjoyed was the quick access to Bondi Junction. I try to catch the SCO train instead of the T4 ones. Glad I moved to Mascot and the T8 waratahs (and another type whose name i forgot) are a huge improvement.
The other type you refer to is Milleniums :)
Imo the Tangaras feel as tho they are a bad train, but at the end of the day transport for nsw has to distribute them somewhere after all, sadly it’s the T4!
I wish they give more varieties like half Oscars and half Tangaras.
Unlikely but would make the T4 more fun
Some Tangaras will graually be removed from service once the H sets start running on that line
Not true. Oscars will replace Tangaras on the T1 & T9, and those Tangaras will come to the T4.
Oscars will also replace all K sets once all are withdrawn from intercity duties
The fact is they to give SCO there own Tracks, due to it being Express. and Metro coming to Sydenham, Which means most likely more T4 trains stopping at Sydenham, and SCO being stuck Behind. what they need to do, is make there own tracks for the SCO. and then SCO can run more frequent services. Because SCO is a really used Route for people going up and the down the coast. And with D Sets coming out soon. They need to Upgrade only Wollongong. North Wollongong, Thirroul, Helensburgh, Waterfall, Sutherland, Redfern, Central. Wolli Creek & Hurstville are useless Stops. When they run T4 Services to both Stops anyways!
The situation has changed since I made this video. It was announced that St Peters and Erskineville will be served by the T8 (likely till the 2025 timetable change). This means that the T4 will remain as it is for the foreseeable year, at least until the metro south west is fully complete.
The problem with the SCO exists already, trains experience this problem of 'waiting' due to Wolli Creek having only 2 platforms. If Wolli Creek had 4 outdoor platforms, this problem would be eliminated completely.
I must say that the idea that the stops on the SCO at Wolli Creek being completely useless is a bit ridiculous, most people get off at Wolli Creek (airport connection) and Hurstville (working precinct + major transport hub for all stops services), so these stops are EXTREMELY important in increasing morning & afternoon peak capacity. [It would be like saying that Blacktown and Parramatta are useless stops for the BMT - I think comparing it to that line brings the picture better]
As a T4 local, this is my experience. But I do find your ideas interesting! SCO could (and probably will) run on the Sydenham Platforms 3 and 4 tracks once the T8 is removed from there completely.
Wouldn't have swap sides
0.01 Jan Jannali
T4 line has the worst train in Sydney no doubt,You can't even see where you are,because there is no display even the announcement is very boring.They only say the station name for one time nothing else.Whenever you are travelling T4 line you must be very careful otherwise you'll have to miss your destination.
just put K sets on the t4 problem solved with the lack of rolling stock types
Not a long term solution
@@SydneyTrainspotter yeah I was more thinking it as an interim until they upgrade the power supply, the K sets will be long gone before they get any new trains for the T4
I think they should abandon double deck trains for the suburban system and move back to single deck trains. Real capacity is higher, single deck are faster, they're more accessible for passengers, you can have more doors, they would draw less power so your power supply issue is fixed.
This is true! But Sydney trains has never been a rapid transit system like Sydney metro (with the exception of the ESRL), so that means that trains wouldn’t perform as fast as metro anyways!
Abandoning the double deck would also cause mayhem for the public, as most members of the public would disagree - all the wasted capacity!
@@SydneyTrainspotter Yes it was, Bradfield's original vision which began with the City Circle, Harbour Bridge, Bankstown and East Hills lines (with further plans for additional lines to the Northern Beaches, one to the Southern suburbs, one to the Eastern Suburbs as well as one to the Inner West) - this was all based on the rapid transit systems he witnessed in London, New York, Philadelphia and Boston. His plan had the same bones as Sydney Metro does now - fast, single-deck trains with more doors per side running high frequency service across the city; they ran 30 trains per hour, more than Metro plans to do for many years, on the combined section of T4+T8+T3 to St James back then, and the original signalling design was for 40 trains per hour!
@@kyletopfer7818 yes so I said Sydney has never actually had rapid transit, regardless of whether it aspired to :)
@@SydneyTrainspotter yes at the time it did - the trains were literally modelled on the Interborough Rapid Transit lines in New York, the system Bradfield put in place had signalling capable of over 30 trains per hour in the city, they ran 30 trains per hour for a number of years and at the time they were innovative and comparable to world leaders in NY London and Philadelphia. How IS that Not 1930s Rapid Transit?
@@kyletopfer7818 I am saying that they had PLANNED to build rapid transit but didn’t actually build it. Models may have been based on rapid transit, but the actual network was NOT the same as the NY one you are referring to! Bradfield may have planned for it, but his plans never fully came into action :/
The line is unreliable with pesky Tangara's that won't go away!
I would say it isn’t great as there are too many Tangaras… yuck
Whilst I agree with your opinion I also think that fleet variety is the last thing that Transport for NSW considers when assigning fleets, they prioritise convenience over small things such as variety - eg Tangaras are all stored at Hornsby and Mortdale, so they run T4, T1 & T9. Waratahs run every line except T4 because every storage facility can have Waratahs except Mortdale
Tangaras are great from an enthusiasts perspective but members of the public may not like them as much.
@@TrainsForNSWVlogs I completely understand, I was not living in Sydney when they rolled out so I can imagine seeing them for the first time as the future trains would have been quite exciting.
@@TrainsForNSWVlogsdefinitely! I don’t like them myself, I was blessed to be out trainspotting when Waratahs came to Hurstville ;)
@@SydneyTrainspotter I guess it's a rare sight.