My god, what he said about the definition of Jazz becoming so diffuse that it's irrelevant now is absolutely true. We had the same thing happen with "Rock" and now it's happening with "Metal." I love Jazz and Metal and it's so frustrating now to see relatively mainstream Metal commentators say disparaging things about groups that do not fit their definition of what Metal is supposed to be. It's like Stanley Crouch getting his panties in a wad about Miles Davis moving into funk. As Miles himself responded to the criticism, it's music.
A friend of mine in nyc was put in charge of hiring a jazz band for some art gallery event at the last minute. He did not know anything about jazz at all and asked around. Someone he knew said their jazz band could play, he said sure. The band arrived and started playing at the set time, but he said they seemed to be taking forever to tune up or something. After a while he asked one of the musicians when are you guys going to actually start playing? The musician said we were playing the whole time. That was his introduction to free jazz which he didn't know existed. He said the art crowd people all left the music room pretty quickly.
Dave Liebman is not only a superb musician and improviser but also a natural educator and (for lack of a better word) very articulate and eloquent spokesperson for Jazz and music in general.
@@ivor9383 thank you! Technically I already did it since it's still quarantine I was only able to send an email with the document instead of actually presenting it. But I still got a good grade! If you need help just comment lol 😅😇
As always, brilliantly spoken and articulated! One of our greatest musicians with an unparalleled sense of history and context. Remarkable that so much information and philosophy is contained within just 4-minutes! Bravo Dave! As always, you speak for us all. - Your old pal, Steve
This is exactly the reason why I have a hard time listening to free jazz. More fun to play than listen to which doesn't appeal to the masses but it has it's place. I have always thought that people just got bored with playing the same tunes and following harmonic rules which led to free jazz. Personally not my cup of tea though. Makes me feel anxious and uncomfortable which is not what I look for in music. I like the expression of feelings but I want to hear it reeled in and have something to relate to at some point.
Dave, Sam Newsome, and I played a tribute concert to Steve Lacy in NYC in 2014. We played free jazz for about an hour with drummer Mike Szekely and bassist Matt Engle. It was the height of my musical experiences so far.
Lieb, Sam Newsome, and I played free jazz concert in honor of Steve Lacy at Michiko Rehearsal Studio's in NYC back in 2014. We played nonstop for an hour buttressed by the fantastic rhythm section bassist Matt Engle and drummer Mike Szekely. It was a great time.
Just a wonderful four-minute essay on free jazz and jazz in general. Brilliant guy. Anyone who can rattle off a string of obscure Eastern European early 20th century classical composers and refer to them as "these cats" is a-okay by me.
The best dissertation I have ever heard on free jazz .My elementary introduction to it was only through Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker with LIVE CREAM--especially Jack Bruce -so thank you very much for this. Great in a trio format. Reduced cacophony.
Love that cream record too as a teen, but it has nothing to do with free jazz, it's the start of the hard rock guitar blues jamming movement so is monumental for that reason, but is not free, or jazz at all. Still great tho, just totally different and unrelated to this discussion. I play both styles and then some, it's all good.
Much respect to Mr. Liebman. The Free music is not about the elements of JAZZ, it is something else. A listener must apply their attention to the sound, there are not easy access points like melodies and harmonic motion. It is a strange sound that you either enjoy or not. I suggest anyone interested in investigating free music should listen to the German saxophonist Peter Brotzmann with his quartet Die like a Dog. The free music scene in the USA is huge : i suggest you hear Leo Smith early recordings. A fantastic contemporary ensemble that plays a mixture of composed and free music is trombonist Steve Swell's Soul Travellers. Try to hear the wonderful Dutch ensemble ICP Orchestra.
To say that an Ornette Coleman Tune can not be remembered is the Reason why Dave Liebmann never got „Free Jazz“. Really he is a great Musician, but his linking of Free Jazz to Schönberg is a very Eurocentric View. Be Bob with its integration of Blues in to chromatically extended Functional Harmony was screaming for a Reaction: Free Jazz first and mostly abandoned the Song Forms, the Rules of Chord Progression but most often it was not Atonal. It had shifting and/or layered Tonality. That Dizzy Gillespie was so upset by Free Jazz was the Fact that it came already 15 Years after the first Recording of Be Bop. He rightfully thought that Be Bop deserved a longer Time at the Vanguard of Music. To make it clear: I love Ornette Coleman’s Harmolodics as I love Dizzy‘s Cubob, 2 of the greatest Music Inventions for my Ear. David Liebmann became the Successor of Dizzy Gillespie as one of the Main Professors of Be Bop. But as Dizzy he doesn’t have the inner Need to play Free of Form. I saw the most striking Saxophone Solo Koncert in my Live by David Liebmann, because he mastered BeBop that even me as a absolute Non Musician had the Feeling that every improvised Note as chromatically off from the Tonic was highly Emotional and logical. I usually do not listen to a lot of Solo Music, but that Concert was a Highlite for me. I just would not follow him in his teachings about Free Jazz.
Of course, you can do both, but not at the same time. Dave Liebman continues to. If you want sonoriity, listen to the duo album he did with Bobby Avey, Vienna Dialogues.
1) Iannis Xenakis. The only one of the three I'm not really very familiar with. 2) Karlheinz Stockhausen. Classical composer who pioneered the use of electronic means to create sound. Super cool and wildly innovative both as a composer and engineer. 3) Krzysztof Penderecki. Most famous for his piece "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" which in itself almost feels like free jazz taken to it's logical extreme - though he composed a lot of work and was a very versatile composer. Any time you hear something that sounds weird in a Kubrick film it's almost always either him or Ligotti.
@@PseudoPseudoDionysius along with Iannis Xenakis a contemporary "classical" composer ... according to the fact the both are dead I'd call them modern or very modern "classical£ composers. Greek born french naturalized, Xenakis had a peculiar stochastic approach, his music was very... massive... strong, lot of sound, loud, glissandi, repetitive rhythms, he also pionereed electronic music. He was actually an architect, too, former Le Corbusier assistant and an anti-nazi greek partisan (he lost an eye in WWII). Poland, Lutoslawsky was a bit more traditional in approach. Both deserve to be heard, but in my opinion Xenakis had a more interesting approach
Maybe enjoyable for the musicians but to me as an avid Jazz fan an unholy noise . Have tried and failed to get into it although l did manage to make some sense of "Free Jazz "by Ornette . Back to Hard Bop , Mainstream and Be Bop for me .
Dave is spot on with his assessment of Free Jazz. The problem I hear is that free jazz is no longer new. It's been around since the 1950's and it's not getting any better. The other problem is that some music schools put so much emphasis on exploring free jazz, when there really isn't much of an audience for it. In this way, students become very well-versed in the free jazz idiom and then discover they can't get a gig that pays anything because no one except their fellow broke students (and a few "intellectuals") want to hear it. Those students would be better served by learning a solid repertoire of standard show tunes, jazz tunes and blues, as well as a healthy dose of dance tunes for every occasion. If everyone is an innovator, no one is an innovator.
You’re completely wrong. I have studied jazz at conservatoire and I don’t know a single conservatoire in the UK that focuses on free improvisation. Instead you are imposed the tiresome standards and the idiomatic jazz chord cycles (giant steps, rhythm changes etc.) for 4 years, I believe America is the same. Barely any students are interested in free music and if they are it is a result of their own personal endeavours. There’s really no work for typical jazz nowadays besides pastiche hotel entertainment and actually in fact there is a thriving avant-garde scene throughout Europe in places like Germany and the Netherlands. Free jazz is constantly evolving just like any other art form, listen to some contemporary stuff like Christian Lillinger ‘open forms for society’ to get an idea. I think it’s a very dangerous thing to say phrases like ‘if everyone’s an innovator then no one is’ and I hope you never say that to anyone trying to do something new
Free Jazz is still incredibly useful as a tool when making other music of literally any genre. Simply having the ability to play music entirely off the cuff will make your rehearsed and written stuff that much easier to learn and further more, bend and mess around with while playing it live.
@@yearningthevoid free jazz is a tradition now, with several different styles in it, but it's basically a tradition, with his boundaries, rules and so on. I play free jazz...love it, it' part of my life, I think it's still fertile like every living and safe tradition. It can change and renovate itself, but that can be said about every tradition. Traditional jazz (real one, the New Orelans thing) has changed a lot ever since 1917, but it's still played (often badly, but there are still good things and good, new performers) and it's still recognizable as part of a long lasting tradition. Ornette talked about free jazz becoming a new tradition back in the 70s.
3:45 "I can teach free jazz next to teaching ethnic jazz. It has its style, it has its ramifications, it has its tools" Curious how Dave will teach freejazz. I agree it's totally teachable and has its traditions, but I've never seen anyone go about teaching free jazz
I was thinking the same thing. What is there to teach anyways? Just fuckin play. What’s the worst that will happen? The other musicians don’t like the way you play. So what
Yes! The problem with Free Jazz is it becomes so esoteric and selfish. Musicians Playing for each other and not the Audience. Let's say Old School understood the listener Better and also knew jazz was played for a reason. This something the new school doesn't understand yet. They will, when They realize thier proverbial tip jars are Empty.
@W 9797 I have played in this arena. After A while a casual observation, noted that The beauty of melodies started to give way To nothing more than gymnastics exercises Of scales. The melodies which are the true Genius of a piece, were lacking. One artist that seemed to bridge this gulf was the genius of Frank Zappa. This is just my humble opinion nothing more.
Free Jazz has been around so long that I don't think people who play it have any trouble understanding that its appeal is limited. They're probably not playing it to pay the rent. All music, whether it be live or recorded, is limited in its potential to support a human being's existence---unless you've got a big name, and even that is becoming harder and harder to achieve in this technological wonderland we've created. "Jazz was played for a reason..." Don't think so. It was (and is) played for a variety of reasons. It sounds like you thought Branford's dismissal of Cecil Taylor in the Ken Burns doc was justified and right on. Well, I didn't. I thought it was disrespectful and ignorant.
The problem is that most people playing it today don't understand that avant-garde jazz is supposed to be a selfless means of expression that is meant to show listeners (as Trane would put it) all of the beautiful things and sounds in our world. Music can never mean anything if it's played self-indulgently.
A simple melody on a great motif like Paul Desmond played ..is as rare as a huge diamond...alll these jazz genres are bullshit....we should learn to concentrate on tones and phrasing and simplicity
I'm personally sick of the "freedom" that originated in 1960s in the USA. In the 1960s, there was a strange idea of "freedom" - in all walks of life - that actually ended up as the opposite of it. Art was so experimental and "free" it became meaningless; "artists" were packing own excrement and selling as "art". Music was played so "freely" it equated with noise, and that was "cool" and "liberating". "Seekers" were experimenting with new drugs that "set them free", by killing them in the long run. Western regimes were "freely" intervening in countless countries, demolishing them "in the name of freedom and democracy". When that became suspicious, they then invented false flag operations, because it was very profitable for the oil and the military sectors. So on.
" "artists" were packing own excrement and selling as "art"." actually that happened in Italy and was a clever provocation by a fine artist (Piero Manzoni) - we are still here talking about it... so he got something...
@@zvonimirtosic6171 I put my dog on a high fiber diet and then had to leave him unattended in the house for a few days. When I opened the front door, it was like a fecal Jackson Pollack
Lou's MMM is just boring static noise, not free jazz, it is basically one sound childs play compared to most free jazz. For starters, try these from a normally smooth jazz guitar player...shocking for him): Pat Metheny's "Zero Tolerance for Silence" and his "Song X" with Ornette Coleman. Both pure free jazz noise. That is just an introduction. But If you go to some of the european free jazz guys it is some of the most aggressive offensive assaults to the senses far beyond any noise punk junk. PS I hate all the artists above, I just know such exists and that it is all pretty funny.
Liebman should be in a Martin Scorsese movie...
@Beckett Vivaan fuck off bot
I second that emotion.
I can remember a bunch of Ornette Coleman melodies just at the top of my head
not everything Ornette did was free, though?
My god, what he said about the definition of Jazz becoming so diffuse that it's irrelevant now is absolutely true. We had the same thing happen with "Rock" and now it's happening with "Metal." I love Jazz and Metal and it's so frustrating now to see relatively mainstream Metal commentators say disparaging things about groups that do not fit their definition of what Metal is supposed to be. It's like Stanley Crouch getting his panties in a wad about Miles Davis moving into funk. As Miles himself responded to the criticism, it's music.
A friend of mine in nyc was put in charge of hiring a jazz band for some art gallery event at the last minute. He did not know anything about jazz at all and asked around. Someone he knew said their jazz band could play, he said sure. The band arrived and started playing at the set time, but he said they seemed to be taking forever to tune up or something. After a while he asked one of the musicians when are you guys going to actually start playing? The musician said we were playing the whole time. That was his introduction to free jazz which he didn't know existed. He said the art crowd people all left the music room pretty quickly.
Dave Liebman is not only a superb musician and improviser but also a natural educator and (for lack of a better word) very articulate and eloquent spokesperson for Jazz and music in general.
Watching this for my presentation on free jazz in school. It makes understand free jazz a lot easier
same
@@ivor9383 good luck on your presentation!
Lana Nahapetian good luck to you as well, but you've probably already presented :p
@@ivor9383 thank you! Technically I already did it since it's still quarantine I was only able to send an email with the document instead of actually presenting it. But I still got a good grade! If you need help just comment lol 😅😇
Lana Nahapetian cool! I gladly accept lol. Can I give you my discord or email?
This was the original hardcore.
As always, brilliantly spoken and articulated! One of our greatest musicians with an unparalleled sense of history and context. Remarkable that so much information and philosophy is contained within just 4-minutes! Bravo Dave! As always, you speak for us all. - Your old pal, Steve
This is exactly the reason why I have a hard time listening to free jazz. More fun to play than listen to which doesn't appeal to the masses but it has it's place. I have always thought that people just got bored with playing the same tunes and following harmonic rules which led to free jazz. Personally not my cup of tea though. Makes me feel anxious and uncomfortable which is not what I look for in music. I like the expression of feelings but I want to hear it reeled in and have something to relate to at some point.
I feel once a musician can go free, they can take different approach towards conventional styles.
Dave, Sam Newsome, and I played a tribute concert to Steve Lacy in NYC in 2014. We played free jazz for about an hour with drummer Mike Szekely and bassist Matt Engle. It was the height of my musical experiences so far.
I can easily trust you :)
Lieb, Sam Newsome, and I played free jazz concert in honor of Steve Lacy at Michiko Rehearsal Studio's in NYC back in 2014. We played nonstop for an hour buttressed by the fantastic rhythm section bassist Matt Engle and drummer Mike Szekely. It was a great time.
Just a wonderful four-minute essay on free jazz and jazz in general. Brilliant guy. Anyone who can rattle off a string of obscure Eastern European early 20th century classical composers and refer to them as "these cats" is a-okay by me.
Very well put Dave!!
still love your work!!
Great Dave!
That was deep.
The best dissertation I have ever heard on free jazz .My elementary introduction to it was only through Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker with LIVE CREAM--especially Jack Bruce -so thank you very much for this. Great in a trio format. Reduced cacophony.
Love that cream record too as a teen, but it has nothing to do with free jazz, it's the start of the hard rock guitar blues jamming movement so is monumental for that reason, but is not free, or jazz at all. Still great tho, just totally different and unrelated to this discussion. I play both styles and then some, it's all good.
great
Dave is absolutely right.
I saw him in 1984 at George Jazz café in Arnhem Holland with guitarist John Scofield
Much respect to Mr. Liebman. The Free music is not about the elements of JAZZ, it is something else. A listener must apply their attention to the sound, there are not easy access points like melodies and harmonic motion. It is a strange sound that you either enjoy or not. I suggest anyone interested in investigating free music should listen to the German saxophonist Peter Brotzmann with his quartet Die like a Dog. The free music scene in the USA is huge : i suggest you hear Leo Smith early recordings. A fantastic contemporary ensemble that plays a mixture of composed and free music is trombonist Steve Swell's Soul Travellers. Try to hear the wonderful Dutch ensemble ICP Orchestra.
Lennie Tristano was the first one to perform free jazz in public in 1948, so actually he was before Coleman,Taylor etc.
Questionable
unique
Lieb is the governor when it comes to post-Coltrane.
To say that an Ornette Coleman Tune can not be remembered is the Reason why Dave Liebmann never got „Free Jazz“. Really he is a great Musician, but his linking of Free Jazz to Schönberg is a very Eurocentric View.
Be Bob with its integration of Blues in to chromatically extended Functional Harmony was screaming for a Reaction: Free Jazz first and mostly abandoned the Song Forms, the Rules of Chord Progression but most often it was not Atonal. It had shifting and/or layered Tonality.
That Dizzy Gillespie was so upset by Free Jazz was the Fact that it came already 15 Years after the first Recording of Be Bop.
He rightfully thought that Be Bop deserved a longer Time at the Vanguard of Music.
To make it clear: I love Ornette Coleman’s Harmolodics as I love Dizzy‘s Cubob, 2 of the greatest Music Inventions for my Ear.
David Liebmann became the Successor of Dizzy Gillespie as one of the Main Professors of Be Bop.
But as Dizzy he doesn’t have the inner Need to play Free of Form.
I saw the most striking Saxophone Solo Koncert in my Live by David Liebmann, because he mastered BeBop that even me as a absolute Non Musician had the Feeling that every improvised Note as chromatically off from the Tonic was highly Emotional and logical.
I usually do not listen to a lot of Solo Music, but that Concert was a Highlite for me.
I just would not follow him in his teachings about Free Jazz.
Of course, you can do both, but not at the same time. Dave Liebman continues to. If you want sonoriity, listen to the duo album he did with Bobby Avey, Vienna Dialogues.
dig
yes but if i want to change into a rock beat or a blues thing or a waltz or no beat at all would this be considered ?
I thought that I was finally going to be able to afford a nice night out after two years....jk! Absolutely informative an insightful!
who were the artists he listed at 2:26?
1) Iannis Xenakis. The only one of the three I'm not really very familiar with.
2) Karlheinz Stockhausen. Classical composer who pioneered the use of electronic means to create sound. Super cool and wildly innovative both as a composer and engineer.
3) Krzysztof Penderecki. Most famous for his piece "Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima" which in itself almost feels like free jazz taken to it's logical extreme - though he composed a lot of work and was a very versatile composer. Any time you hear something that sounds weird in a Kubrick film it's almost always either him or Ligotti.
4) Witold Lutosławski. Can't say I know anything about him either.
check this piece by Xenakis it's awesome
czcams.com/video/MZ5771zMOeE/video.html
@@PseudoPseudoDionysius along with Iannis Xenakis a contemporary "classical" composer ... according to the fact the both are dead I'd call them modern or very modern "classical£ composers. Greek born french naturalized, Xenakis had a peculiar stochastic approach, his music was very... massive... strong, lot of sound, loud, glissandi, repetitive rhythms, he also pionereed electronic music. He was actually an architect, too, former Le Corbusier assistant and an anti-nazi greek partisan (he lost an eye in WWII). Poland, Lutoslawsky was a bit more traditional in approach. Both deserve to be heard, but in my opinion Xenakis had a more interesting approach
Maybe enjoyable for the musicians but to me as an avid Jazz fan an unholy noise . Have tried and failed to get into it although l did manage to make some sense of "Free Jazz "by Ornette . Back to Hard Bop , Mainstream and Be Bop for me .
Dave is spot on with his assessment of Free Jazz. The problem I hear is that free jazz is no longer new. It's been around since the 1950's and it's not getting any better. The other problem is that some music schools put so much emphasis on exploring free jazz, when there really isn't much of an audience for it. In this way, students become very well-versed in the free jazz idiom and then discover they can't get a gig that pays anything because no one except their fellow broke students (and a few "intellectuals") want to hear it. Those students would be better served by learning a solid repertoire of standard show tunes, jazz tunes and blues, as well as a healthy dose of dance tunes for every occasion. If everyone is an innovator, no one is an innovator.
You’re completely wrong. I have studied jazz at conservatoire and I don’t know a single conservatoire in the UK that focuses on free improvisation. Instead you are imposed the tiresome standards and the idiomatic jazz chord cycles (giant steps, rhythm changes etc.) for 4 years, I believe America is the same. Barely any students are interested in free music and if they are it is a result of their own personal endeavours. There’s really no work for typical jazz nowadays besides pastiche hotel entertainment and actually in fact there is a thriving avant-garde scene throughout Europe in places like Germany and the Netherlands. Free jazz is constantly evolving just like any other art form, listen to some contemporary stuff like Christian Lillinger ‘open forms for society’ to get an idea. I think it’s a very dangerous thing to say phrases like ‘if everyone’s an innovator then no one is’ and I hope you never say that to anyone trying to do something new
No longer new? Free jazz was created as something that is constantly renovating itself, it's its very purpose of existing, unlike traditional forms.
Free Jazz is still incredibly useful as a tool when making other music of literally any genre. Simply having the ability to play music entirely off the cuff will make your rehearsed and written stuff that much easier to learn and further more, bend and mess around with while playing it live.
@@yearningthevoid free jazz is a tradition now, with several different styles in it, but it's basically a tradition, with his boundaries, rules and so on. I play free jazz...love it, it' part of my life, I think it's still fertile like every living and safe tradition. It can change and renovate itself, but that can be said about every tradition. Traditional jazz (real one, the New Orelans thing) has changed a lot ever since 1917, but it's still played (often badly, but there are still good things and good, new performers) and it's still recognizable as part of a long lasting tradition. Ornette talked about free jazz becoming a new tradition back in the 70s.
And conversely, some jazz programs treat it as though it doesn’t exist…
3:45 "I can teach free jazz next to teaching ethnic jazz. It has its style, it has its ramifications, it has its tools" Curious how Dave will teach freejazz. I agree it's totally teachable and has its traditions, but I've never seen anyone go about teaching free jazz
I was thinking the same thing. What is there to teach anyways? Just fuckin play. What’s the worst that will happen? The other musicians don’t like the way you play. So what
Pendereski
Z
Yes! The problem with Free Jazz is it becomes so esoteric and selfish. Musicians
Playing for each other and not the Audience.
Let's say Old School understood the listener
Better and also knew jazz was played for a reason. This something the new school doesn't understand yet. They will, when
They realize thier proverbial tip jars are
Empty.
@W 9797 I have played in this arena. After
A while a casual observation, noted that
The beauty of melodies started to give way
To nothing more than gymnastics exercises
Of scales. The melodies which are the true
Genius of a piece, were lacking. One artist that seemed to bridge this gulf was the genius of Frank Zappa. This is just my humble opinion nothing more.
Free Jazz has been around so long that I don't think people who play it have any trouble understanding that its appeal is limited. They're probably not playing it to pay the rent. All music, whether it be live or recorded, is limited in its potential to support a human being's existence---unless you've got a big name, and even that is becoming harder and harder to achieve in this technological wonderland we've created.
"Jazz was played for a reason..." Don't think so. It was (and is) played for a variety of reasons. It sounds like you thought Branford's dismissal of Cecil Taylor in the Ken Burns doc was justified and right on. Well, I didn't. I thought it was disrespectful and ignorant.
The problem is that most people playing it today don't understand that avant-garde jazz is supposed to be a selfless means of expression that is meant to show listeners (as Trane would put it) all of the beautiful things and sounds in our world. Music can never mean anything if it's played self-indulgently.
@@bounderby99 I totally agree with this assessment.Trane is irreplaceable. Davis, is
Irreplaceable, as is Rollins, Monk, Parker, Wes!
fuck the audience.
A simple melody on a great motif like Paul Desmond played ..is as rare as a huge diamond...alll these jazz genres are bullshit....we should learn to concentrate on tones and phrasing and simplicity
I'm personally sick of the "freedom" that originated in 1960s in the USA. In the 1960s, there was a strange idea of "freedom" - in all walks of life - that actually ended up as the opposite of it. Art was so experimental and "free" it became meaningless; "artists" were packing own excrement and selling as "art". Music was played so "freely" it equated with noise, and that was "cool" and "liberating". "Seekers" were experimenting with new drugs that "set them free", by killing them in the long run. Western regimes were "freely" intervening in countless countries, demolishing them "in the name of freedom and democracy". When that became suspicious, they then invented false flag operations, because it was very profitable for the oil and the military sectors. So on.
" "artists" were packing own excrement and selling as "art"." actually that happened in Italy and was a clever provocation by a fine artist (Piero Manzoni) - we are still here talking about it... so he got something...
@@emilianoturazzi Yes. Today we live in stinky after-effects of all that excrement.
@@zvonimirtosic6171 I put my dog on a high fiber diet and then had to leave him unattended in the house for a few days. When I opened the front door, it was like a fecal Jackson Pollack
This is child's play...
If you want high iq, listen to Metal Machine Music and get back to me.
Lou's MMM is just boring static noise, not free jazz, it is basically one sound childs play compared to most free jazz. For starters, try these from a normally smooth jazz guitar player...shocking for him): Pat Metheny's "Zero Tolerance for Silence" and his "Song X" with Ornette Coleman. Both pure free jazz noise. That is just an introduction. But If you go to some of the european free jazz guys it is some of the most aggressive offensive assaults to the senses far beyond any noise punk junk. PS I hate all the artists above, I just know such exists and that it is all pretty funny.