Convert From Cottered Crankset to Square Tapered Cranks/Bottom Bracket
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- čas přidán 14. 02. 2015
- I show how to replace a vintage cottered cranks/bottom bracket to a newer style square taper bottom bracket and crankset. Covered is removing the cottered crank set and bottom bracket, measuring, and choosing a new square taper BB, and installing the new bottom bracket.
P.S. A better way to determine the spindle length, is to look at the specifications of the square taper crank set that you choose. They should tell you what length of spindle to use for that specific crank set.
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In this video you mention potentially NOT being able to find a cartridge bottom bracket so easily for an old Raleigh or similar. That's exactly what I am looking at doing. Just picked up a 1969 Dunelt and are anxious to get rid of the cottered cranks/bottom bracket. Any BB suggestions/direction would be appreciated. Cheers.
This was really helpful. Im 16 and I repair my bike myself and you teach me everything I need to know!
@Olivier Skrt You're a smart kid. I wish I had CZcams back then, I would have spent my time doing things like this instead of watching TV and other dumb shit.
When my wife asked why I wanted to convert me old Fuji Roadracer Tourer from cotter pin to square taper I just showed her this video with the statement "This is the crap I have to go through if I need to do maintenance on my bottom bracket." So thank you. 😂
Several years ago I was able to upgrade an old Raleigh Record from cottered crank to square taper by replacing just the spindle, and re-using both of the original bearing cups and the original bearings.
This is what I am trying to do but I’m having issues with spacing. Every spindle I have is too short which makes it impossible to tighten the adjustable cup properly. The secondary ring doesn’t have enough threads to get a bite, this keeps causing play in the bottom bracket.
Thanks RJ! I feel in love w/ this weird old bike and I quickly realized why they left cotterd cranks in the past… I was disappointed but now I am excited to get her back on the road!
Thanks, RJ. That was, as usual, both useful and interesting.
Im rennavating a mountain bike, your video was very helpful, and precise.
Thank you. This is exactly what I needed to know. Measuring from the centers of where the cotters go on the spindle is the piece I couldn't figure out. Thanks for all your videos.
The most captivating and skilled bike mecanic i have seen HEREUH!
Thanks for all this useful information. I am rebuilding my dads old single-speed bike (probably older than 40 years) and was not sure how to calculate the axl length for conversion from the old cottered 73mm/135mm bottom.
waiting for the video on the older Raleigh conversion! Phil Wood has the cups and bb just need to know how to measure for the correct unit thanks
Looks like I'll need a threadless bottom bracket for my 1970 Raleigh. Thanks!
Very good video and tecnical tips my friend, tnks.
Always perfect guide maintenance bro,,keep it
Thanks for the video. We are working on an old Peugeot and ended up cutting off the cottered spindle.
really helpful video! I'm converting a 179 Schwinn to a fixed gear. Just waiting for the crankset in the mail! Greetings from Netherlands!
I had no idea that could be done. Very good upgrade. I'm going to do this upgrade to a Canadian Made Raleigh Superbe. Thumbs up for another great video!
Many Raleigh 3 speeds had different threading, so you be out of luck.
Thanks for the video!!!😃
This is useful. I can’t get a low enough front ring for my 3 speed to tackle the hills but by converting to a square taper I can use a plethora of rings, thanks 🎉
thank you ... just now thinking about 'upgrading' my late 60's/early 70's Raleigh Gran Prix....
I converted my ‘74 Grand Prix to a Shimano 600 in the 1980s. Had to re-tap the bottom bracket because as he says vintage Raleigh bikes from Nottingham were in a world all their own as far as threading.
Wow, I thought this will not work because the bike tech I has just talk said so but it totally can. Thank you Sir
Great video there. Is it not necessary to use a thread locker solution on the crank arm bolts?
This the only video that has helped me
Hello RJ...Love the videos...I've learned so much by watching them...thank you!Question.Where do i order a square taper axel 70mmx35x1?
Hi RJ, I found with working on cottered cranks, one tool is the discontinued Park Tool press, 024, but, another option is to buy an automotive ball joint press kit from Harbor Freight and use the C press in that kit along with the adapters, to press out the cotter pin so you don't have to drill it out - This method allows you to sell the cottered crank set with its bottom bracket, for someone else to use, from the vintage bike collector world. -Colin Bennett
I made a tool czcams.com/video/JIIjID_KdiY/video.html
But it's tough to get the pins out without damaging them anyway.
Hey RJ, thanks for all the videos. I've become quite the Bike Mechanic using this channel. Question - did you ever create a video on how to convert a bottom bracket with the 26tpi?
Brilliant !
I was wondering what cottered and cotterless was. Written articles I read did not explain well the difference and left me even more confused 🤔.
Now I know from watching this what the difference is. Plus I learnt what chain line is. 😊
Tighten it till it strips.. then back of 1/4 turn..
I converted from spuare to this and all I needed was the crank set and the axle every thing fitted like a glove on my raleigh
I get to do this job on my old C. Ito. 73mm BSA cottered to 73mm BSA JIS square taper.
hey RJ I have a two piece cottered crank from a 60s could you help give me advice on how to upgrade it to a new set up its nothing but headaches currently ? thanks lucas
Helpful
thanks
Hey, i was sondering if its possible to just replace the spindle, to add a square taper spindle in it and sqtaper crank arms. will it work?
Can i use mid bb /spanish bb or eu bb and just space it out with some tube or smth inside there and then put 19mm 8teeth bmx axle and cranks?
Hello, thank you for your videos, they are amazing!
And should we do if the chain ring continues to waggle, although we have tried each of the other three directions of the square spindle? Мaybe the chain circle is crooked?
It could be a damaged bottom bracket, or maybe a bent chain ring, or maybe the mating faces in the crank are damaged.
Hi can you tell me what size I would need if I was making a fixie
Hello Sir, can i only replace the spindle for a square taper one (cup-n-cone). Thanks.
Hello. My right pedal slips a little bit from the spindle, a cotter type and it gives me that lag feel every time i pedal. Can you tell me how to install cotter pins? I just need to make sure if i installed them correctly
I have a bike with one piece crank USA BB (Huffy) and I wanna change to bottom bracket cartridge, how to measure that kind of spindle?
Good
Question, if the sealed cartridge doesn't work, can we replace the spindle with a square taper spindle?
I have an old German brand "Mars & Markenrad" brand bike, its number of teeth per inch in the bottom bracket is 24 or 26, do you have an idea about this subject?
i think that the square taper to crank grease actually might stop galvanic corrosion, as it is press fit, i don't think it harms. i think that eventually all press fit might needs some additional push after a week or so as it might need an extra umph.
Wonder why RJ didnt use a WD40 on the cotter pins before giving a good blow.
How can I upgrade a 26 tpi on my old Raleigh
Awesome video. Would this apply to Falcon Bikes as well? I know they were made in England, but not sure of the BB dimensions. Are they 26 or 24?
A couple years late, but I too would like to know this
I have a 1976 Raleigh rapide Mixte with the frame being made in Taiwan. Would it still be considering English threading? (Might be a dumb question)
How do I do this to a 1960’s Austrian 3 speed?
My 410 looks to be identical, is a sealed BB the only way to go or just the easiest? Thanks great video!
Cartridge, Hollowtech II, GXP, shrug.
Anybody knows if this method works for a Hercules bike?
Hi there. great guide. I measured my spindle to be 117.5. Now since I'm converting a vintage road bike with 2x5 speed to fixie, should I get a spindle length lower than 117.5? If so what would be ideal?
Can't tell you what length to get. You will have to experiment with chain line.
This will work the same for newer styles (e.g. Octalink or Hollowtech) right? Just as long as you size up the shell to the proper dimensions.
In many cases yes.
cotter pins are a tapered wedge shape & should be knocked out from the nut side only with the nut loosened,if u try to hammer it through it will shred the pin & probably damage the axle & the pin's hole in the crank arm,it shouldnt need a lot of force unless there is dirt or corrosion trapping it,wd 40/rp7 or similar penetrating oil will help & if it's really stubborn spray until it's soaked & give it time to soak in before trying again .
Nice you use the metric system!! Welcome the 21st century!!
@SenseiGichinFunakoshi ? The bottom brackets/spindle are specified in millimeters, he had no choice. If he measured it in inches, he still would have to convert to millimeters to find the bottom bracket he needs. If you do some research, you'll realize that the United States tried to convert to the metric system, but they determined it would be at a large cost to the taxpayer to do so.
I was wondering if I could reuse the cotter pin cups and just replace the axle with with a new tapered axle (non cartridge) assuming the cups were in good shape?
+Mike C Cotter pins can be reused if they are in good shape. I would not try to use a square tapered axle with the cottered bearing cups. I know on some they are different and the bearings will ride slightly off their regular position and they will wear down and mess up the cups too.
+RJ The Bike Guy thanks for the quick response. That explains a lot. I tried doing just that a couple years ago and it felt good initially but then it loosened up quickly. After I readjusted it, there was a lot of friction. I will not try it again.
Apparently you need to buy slightly larger ball bearings and it will work. This must be the most cost effective way of conversion of 26tpi bb to square taper.? No re-tapping of the bb etc...
Do you have to put the non-drive side crank on 180 from the drive side crank or is that simply preference?
LOL! Try riding a bike with it other than 180 degrees! LOL
When i tried this on a old Raleigh I ran into the Raleigh proprietary 26 thread issue so I was stymied in trying to convert and went back to cottered - wish I'd seen this video 7 years ago lol. Have you tried a thread-less BB like velo orange sells or the "repair" BB that I see from sunlite on Amazon in cases with the proprietary thread bb shell?
This won't work on Raleigh threaded BBs. The bearings will not roll in the right lines in the races. You can use different size ball bearings. I can't remember the size off hand. A threadless BB would be a better option. I haven't tried them, but have read good things.
thanks for your quick response. I may have to try it someday and I have a Motobecane Mirage frame laying around with a cottered crank so maybe I will give it a shot with the threadless bb.
Just a question. At 7:15 i see that the crank arm inside is round. Is it the same arm that you put it into the square tapered bb? I can't imagine how square tapered goes into round shaped one...
It's not the same crank set. They don't even look alike.
RJ, do you have a tip on what to clean dirty and oily rags?
+Rob Bastien Not really. If they are just dirty, I wash them with liquid tide. If they are very greasy, then I just dispose of them.
Ya, I guess there's nothing to do with rags that are really too oily.
an industrial washing machine will work. i know not everyone has access to one of these though
Whats your thoughts on whether or not a Sunlite thredless repair bottom bracket is a solution to a threadless upgrade on 26tpi Raleighs? I just bought a Raleigh Grand Prix built by Gazzle. It looks like it has the Raleigh standard cups so I'm assuming it's 26TPI. I only paid $3 for the bike so normally I'd just send it to Gooodwill but this frame is beautiful. I'm really digging the lugs on the frame. I've been wanting a modernize a vintage steel frame road bike for awhile and this seems like it would be a great ride so long as I can get the BB figured out. Thanks
I haven't tried them, but I have heard decent things about them.
does this same process apply to a peugeot UO8?
Most if not all early bike boom Peugeots have a French threaded bottom bracket with 35mm x 1mm threads, both cups being right hand-threaded. Velo Orange sells French threaded sealed BBs in different lengths. Not cheap by any means but great for that UO-8 you wanna build for touring or a single speed beater.
I have an older Raleigh Grand Prix (I think it's a 1977). Based on this video it looks like I can't replace the BB? My shop told me to clean the bearings and everything which I think I would be happy with, but I do want/need to replace at least the non-drive side crank arm if not the whole thing. They are cottered (obviously), I'm just seeking advice about what the best thing to do really is.
Thanks, you have lots of really informative videos!
Elliott Wells It depends on BB threading. If the threading is commong 24tpi, then you can. If the threading is Raleigh 26tpi, then you can't do it like in this video. This bike was a Raleigh Grand Prix and had 24tpi threading.
+Elliot Wells You can replace the BB if you rethread the threads right?
You can get a threadless BB. I don't think recutting the threads is a good idea. One the tool is expensive. And two, cutting 24tpi over 26tpi would probably not leave much in the way of usable threads.
Are all grand prix 24tpi?
Why no grease on the plastic part? We on our bike shop use little grease on the threads so threads on the frame don't rust as easily.
Some greases can disintegrate and break-down plastic
Yea, figured that much. Mineral oil based lithium grease shouldn't eat plastic. Lgmt 2 is just that and we use it. Here's a quote "
Typically, lubricants based on silicone, PFAE (perflourinated), most synthetic hydrocarbons (SHC or PAO), or mineral oils work well with plastics. Lubricants based on esters or polyglycols are generally not compatible with plastics, although there are exceptions depending on the type of plastic.
"
Hey what is the brand and model of that thread gauge tool you are using? (at 9:06)- that seems like a handy tool when working old bikes - English, Fench, Italian etc
It's just a generic thread gauge. They come in metric and SAE. Might be Craftsman, might be Harbor Freight. They are pretty much the same.
thanks
I am currently working on a Peugeot, I am guessing it is from the 70's. It looks exactly the same as the one you did bottom bracket overhaul on. I was hoping to do a similar conversion on my project as the one you are doing in this video could you provide me any insight before I dive in. Any idea what bottom bracket would work or if I am gonna have to go with a 35x1 cup set and a square taper axle?
velo-orange.com/collections/bottom-brackets/products/grand-cru-bottom-brackets-hollow-axle-alloy-cups-1
Did you ever find out? I am at the same place, today
I have a 'Rotary' road bike. I'm unsure of it's country of birth? Any ideas? I think it may be of peugeot heritage. I need to overhaul the entire bottom bracket.
+Lewis Atkins No idea. Try google with details of your bike.
Hi, do you know if bearings from square taper crank would work in the cotter crank set? i have a feeling there's going to be carnage to the shaft/cups but if not i'd like to just stick in some used ones i have in an old bike I'm playing with (keep costs down, it's not worth much/anything) thanks
Replace the bearings. They are very cheap!
@@RJTheBikeGuy are they different bearins to the tapered square ones? the ones i have here from the taper square are near new.
Can i still use he same cups on my Peugeot mixte 70'ish and remove cotter pin cranks and still be able to use square taper made for Peugeot ? Cause I have the Peugeot crankset but no cups.
Ricardo del Rey You're talking about not using a cartridge bottom bracket like in the video? You would probably have to find one made for French threading. There are some out there.
ok got it thank you much :)
what year is the Raleigh Grand Prix 75-76 when did start 24 tpi on the gp
I do not know. Some time on google might reveal the answer. And since you are the one who wants to know, I will let you work on it.
Its hard to say, given that Raleigh had a couple different factories and were probably trying to use up old back-stock before switching to 24 TPI whole hog. From my experience the cut-off was around 1972 for 10 speeds and maybe a little later for their Nottingham three speeds. Again, not a hard and fast rule.
RJ, respectfully-- I understand how annoying people can be with their perceived lack of internet sleuthing, but you sound like a neckbeard when you condescend people in your comments section. And funny enough, I seriously doubt this viewer is the only person that is curious about the idiosyncrasies of English bicycles. In fact, it seems like a relevant question for all intents and purposes of your video!
Can i use a 9 speed crankset (shimano sora) with a 5 speed freewheel? thanks
Probably.
alright. thanks for the quick reply!
One thing I don't understand- why has the right side got a reverse thread, and the left side a normal one? I would have thought that as the crank rotates clockwise (when viewed from the sprocket side), this would tend to undo the bearing cups?
You would think, but it's actually the opposite. If the right cup were normal threaded like on French and Italian bikes, the cranks will tend to loosen it. Something to do with the rotation of the bearings.
Thanks, actually I Googled it as well... Apparently, it's something called procession. Where you have an axle rotating within a cylindrical bearing, for some reason the bearing rends to rotate in the opposite direction to the axle! This also applies to the left-hand pedal & the freewheel..
is there a way to convert from thun thompson type to a square taper one ??
***** I don't know much about the Thun Thompson BBs. But I did a search and found something called Thun Efficient Jive bottom bracket Ø40mm. That looks like what you are looking for, but I am not sure. You will have to do some research.
oh ok .. Thank you anyway . I'll do some more research
What if the chain rings are not the same distance? I recently made a bike and the chain steps on top of the teeth of the big chain ring each time and then falls on the outside of the ring. Certainly the problem is not in the limit screws. Is it possible that the problem is that the chain rings are at a greater distance than before?
Thank you!
Sounds like cable adjustment and limiting screws.
RJ The Bike Guy actually the problem was in the bottom bracket (it was too long)
I bought a 110mm for my Raleigh but the drive side is sticking out too far. Any ideas?
Maybe flip the spindle? Get a shorter spindle?
I checked the Sunrace spec for the crank I ordered and it calls for a 107mm spindle, so I'm guessing that's it. I'll order a crank that needs a 110mm and follow up.
What kind of drill bits did you use to get the cotter pin out?
I think they were these: www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B008NCB56A/ref=nosim/youtube25-20
@@RJTheBikeGuy great! Thanks for the reply, I love your videos. They are super helpful
why dont you use grease on the plastic side of the bottom bracket?
Metal can bond with metal. Plastic doesn't bond like that. And grease can have adverse effects on plastic.
Can I just replace the spindle and use the old cups and bearings??
It worked! I had a Japanese BB with a square taper spindle and didn’t realize it wasn’t gonna fit into the vintage Italian frame I have so I just swapped the spindle. I couldn’t get the fixed cup out anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ it’s buttery smooth
Well...the bearings may or may not be riding in the correct part of the bearing races.
Is it possible to just replace the axle and keep the original bottom bracket?
Not and have it work correctly.
@@RJTheBikeGuy I have a vintage French Peugeot with French threading and a 68mm Bottom bracket casing and a 129mm cottered spindle, can you recommend any BB replacements?
They make French threaded cartridge BBs, and also threadless BBs. Those are your only options that I am aware of.
Hello RJ, my steel bottom bracket shell has to cilinders glued to it and the threads are on these cilinders. I googled it but nothing. I have asked many people and nobody know knows.
Dunno. Is it a carbon frame or something?
@@RJTheBikeGuy It is a steel frame. The bottom bracket has no threads and it's thin. I has like two threaded "rings" to which the bottom bracket is threaded. I suspect it's a way to cut expenses and I worry such a thin bottom bracket might not last too long (and I bought steel hoping it would last longer in time)
I am not psychic. I can't tell you with such limited information and not having even seen the bike. Do some research on the bike model.
@@RJTheBikeGuy I'm sorry. You are right. Unfortunately for me the bike company does not answer to my email. Thank you for your time
@@user-ht6em6po5u Do research on Google.
Hey, i want to replace the crankset of my motobecane, its a french bike, do you know if its a different thread? And if so where can i find one?
You may need a French specific BB. Vintage French bikes had a right hand threaded fixed cup.
can i just switch the axel if my cups are still good?
Maybe. But be aware that the bearings might not ride in the races correctly, On old Raleighs you need to use 15/64" bearings instead of 1/4" bearings. Not sure about French BBs.
How do i know that it doesn't ride correctly? (Sorry to bother you i'm relatively new from all those bikes stuff)
Check this page:
sheldonbrown.com/raleigh26.html
Go down to where it says "Upgrading to Cotterless Cranks".
What is that tool you have at 9;15 called please?
Thread pitch gauge.
Thankyou.
Nottingh'm - The A is silent ;)
With all due respect, grease those tapers and bolts! You'll get a truer torque and it will in no way reduce the crank arms lock down.
Most torque specs are dry unless stated otherwise. If you add lubriant you will actually exceed the recomended torque if you are using a torque wrench. If you put grease on square tapers and try and follow the manufacturer torque spec you will overtighten the crancks, and possibly expand the crack hole right past the end of the tapper on the spindle. I found this out the hard the way. Destryoed a perfectly good cranck arm and smacked my head off the bike frame when cranck gave way. You can grease square tappers but don't follow a torque spec if you do. Just go by feel.
@@jessecampbell4580 I forgot me favorite motto. "Never tell a man his medicine is no good!" Cheers!
So this ISN"T one of those vintage Raleigh bikes with the different threading on the bottom bracket.
No, it isn't.
Rough... hammering screwdrivers to remove chain rings, cotter pins trying to drift out on bouncy wooden floors...
I am guessing you haven;t worked on many old cottered crank bikes.
@@RJTheBikeGuy Well you guessed wrong.. I was repairing and building my and my school mates bikes from scrap bikes and bits brought to me to fix up back in the 1960's. Cotterless cranks were restriced to Tour de France quality bikes at that time, so getting the cotter out was an early aquired skill. I respoked and trued buckled wheels on my home made rig too.
Not to be heretical, but is there a reason you couldn't just use the existing cups and replace the spindle with a tapered square spindle?
I just bought a Mexican built Benotto mixte so I'm going through your videos to see what my options are. The cranks look good, so I think your video on rebuilding taper pin cranks will take care of my project for now..
If you convert from cottered cranks, you're a horrible person. As for 26tpi bottom brackets, Phil Wood make suitable cups, and "threadless" bottom brackets (available from Velo Orange) exist that use a combination of clamping on both sides of the bottom bracket shell, and using an expanding mechanism inside to stop it rotating.