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Pat Metheny - Lesson on Improvisation
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2013
- I couldn't find this video on CZcams anymore, so I decided to reupload it.
This is a unique recording of private lesson an unknown guitarist had with Pat Metheny. The original video was divided in mulitple parts, I merged them into one whole video. Enjoy!
I took notes on this video to bring into the practice room. Thought i'd share incase anyone else finds it useful.
Pat Metheny Guitar Lesson:
Rhythm TRUMPS all
Hear Subdivisions whether it’s 8th note triplets or sixteenth notes (depending on the tune) AT ALL TIMES. Better yet really FEEL these subdivisions.
Play with great drummers as much as you can! Doesn’t matter the style.
Charlie Parker and Coltrane are the best examples of getting lines in a solo to really sink in with the rhythm section.
The goal is to "get your hands dirty harmonically and rhythmically at the same time".
You become part of the rhythm section as a soloist.
You really want to describe the changes so that if you played with just a bass player or drummer you would hear all of the harmonic information.
Play more arpeggios, guitar players have a tendency to shy away from this obvious fact.
Pat plays about 50% straight chord tones when soloing.
With the exception of maj7th over min7 chords, Pat hears all 12 tones over any chord. Think extensions. "This took a long time to get together"
If you have great time, you can get away with playing pretty much anything. Listeners respond intuitively to solid rhythm.
Listen to people a lot who have great time to imitate the feel. Along with Miles, Trane, and Parker, Sonny Rollins is great to imitate for guitar. His lines are easier to execute on the guitar. Sonny can also turn a small idea and stretch it over a solo which is something guitar players have trouble with.
Aim for Rhythmic definition and power under everything you play. This is best developed playing with others.
A drum machine can suffice if you don’t have access to a good drummer.
Aim to land on/end a line/phrase on harmonically strong notes on strong beats.
Pat recommends playing really simple with the chord tones over a progression and try to make as rhythmically accurate and interesting as possible.
The goal is to make your rhythms so accurate the drum machine disappears.
Be careful to make triplets clear, not like eighths or sixteenth notes
Beau Taillefer Sir, thank you for this.
Beau Taillefer Thank you!!!
+Beau Taillefer Excellent posts like yours are why I think in spite of the 5-10% or so of comments that are from trolls and miserable whiners complaining about the fact that the free lessons they find aren't perfectly tailored to suit them, there is real value in the CZcams musician community; most of us are here for inspiration, and to share tips, ideas, opinions (in a civil manner) and helpful instruction with each other.
I bet you got a lot out of that exercise too, so its win/win.
Thanks! I typed this up for myself and figured it would be helpful to share for others. I've listened to this several times a year for 5 or 6 years and it always gets me back on track.
"Be careful to make triplets clear, not like eighths or sixteenth notes" is not exactly right.
What he said was "Be careful to make triplets clear, not like *dotted* eighths or sixteenth notes".
But excellent summary, otherwise! Thanks!
The more I study music, the more I realise there are only fundamentals, and the master musicians are those who have the humility and patience to keep working on the fundamentals.
Right on
Master musicians also know how to break the rules and break the fundamental principles of music, expanding and innovating.
Indeed. Patience, persistence.
Also I feel this is very appropriate:
Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not: nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not: the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent.
It feels bad, and very sad, when you are talended and smart, but you don't have persistence. In music for example.
+christianmillermusic yes, this is probably true in all fields
+christianmillermusic The sole prerequisite is the desire to do it...
Thank you for the post. There are players who will never hear teaching at this level so you've really brought us something truly unique here. Thanks again!!!
You're welcome!
@@JelleWillems Hey man, now what standard they are playing?
Lucas Ray Exp [LRE] mr p.c.
@@LucasLucasMusic Mr PC
Man great jazz players like Pat need to release some recordings of him and other great artists just sitting down talking about music and just grooving over stuff. Nothing thought out, just on the spot having fun. Guys like him are so damn good that their spontaneous stuff that they just come up with out of nowhere is so, so much better than your typical studio album.
BeaverChaser THAT IS AN EXCELLENT IDEA I LOVE VIDEOS LIKE THAT!
He has albums like that rejoicing, trio stuff, song x etc
This lesson is great. Pretty much changed my life. Especially the rhythmic stuff he talks about is great. Recommend it to any guitar player who's serious about their instrument.
I spent this past winter learning every line Pat plays in this video. It is honestly one of my favorite samples of Pat's straight-ahead sound, and one of my favorite samples of his playing I've heard just generally. A simple minor blues, but he makes every line sound incredible. I can't even begin to tell you how much I've learned because of this video. Even after learning the solo verbatim and being able to execute it by rote, all the things he talked about in the video--particularly his discussion on the primacy of rhythm, articulation, and phrasing--have become more apparent to me than ever. I have a fairly good harmonic grasp on what he plays here, save for a few things. Surprisingly, a lot of what he plays is just diatonic arpeggios/scales with some chromaticism/chromatic enclosures, and a sprinkling of outside notes here and there. It's not nearly as harmonically-dense as I thought it was. What stood out to me the most was the articulation, the accenting, his rhythms, how he staggers his ideas, his phrasing, the actual physical execution of the line. There is a Pat Metheny "feel". Learning this solo has given me so much inspiration and ideas on what to practice, how to practice, and honestly, I barely scratched the surface of it. The best lesson I've ever been given.
I'm finding that while Pat's harmonic vocabulary is definitely rich, I don't think he tends to think in terms of scales and modes as much as he thinks in arpeggios/chord-tones, extensions, and altered extensions. In fact, a lot of his playing would be traditionally considered harmonically unjustifiable, but he's able to pull it off through his ability to still resolve to chord tones on strong beats or by the rhythmic/structural phrasing and logic of his lines. I think all of this is elucidated by examples in his actual playing here, as well as by what he says here. "If you have great time, you can play anything". Notwithstanding the dubious simplicity of this advice, I think having great time in the Methenian sense isn't just having a steady tempo and even subdivisions in your playing, it's knowing where you are at any particular time in a song's form, when and how to add more tension to your lines in the greater context of a solo, etc. He's not saying harmony is unimportant. He's simply stressing the rhythmic dimension in using harmony that is inseparable from it, that for must of us tends to be an afterthought.
In sum, it's not so much what you play as much as how you play it. That's the greatest takeaway for me. If you try to learn this solo by only paying attention to what notes he plays, but ignore his articulations, dynamics, rhythmic feel, eg how the line is actually being played, I GUARANTEE you, it will sound uncharacteristic, boring, and uninspired. The soul of a line, the character of a line's sound is in HOW the line is played.
@@trevorbadger91 I'm learning what he played in this video too. It's a treasure trove of great phrasing, rhythmic variation, and dynamics. I've been playing for 30 years or more now, and my technique is as solid as it will probably ever be. However, my phrasing is awful- just awful. I spent so much time learning technique that I ignored the most important aspect of music- making music. I've been listening to this video for years (I've made an audio copy of it and listen to it in my car) I've worked very hard in order to hear eighth notes, triplets, sixteenth notes, etcetera in my mind while I am soloing- I've gotten pretty good at that. However, my phrasing- ugh! I've also been learning a lot from Peter Farrell's videos. He is a student of George Benson, and he talks about a lot of the same stuff that Metheny talks about. I've had lots of teachers, and even graduated with a Masters in music, and no one ever told me the things that I've learned from this video and from Peter Farrell's videos. This is top tier information that only the top 1% of jazz guitarists seem to know about. It's what separates them from the rest of us. Yeah, I can play their stuff, but there was always something missing when I played their lines. I didn't sound as good as them even if I was playing the exact same notes. I sounded like crap. I never knew why, but now know why. Judging by what you've written here you seem to know why too.
21:35 who is he talking about?
@@svensvensson6705 yes,it was edited out. Who would you guess he is talking about?
a lot of guys here are saying that as a teacher Pat was pretty critical and harsh... well i tell you - you did not see harsh if you didn;t study in classical music field in europe, especially with russian proffesors.
Pat is just saying what could be better and for saying h-o-w to do it he is a great teacher here. i am amazed how simply he explains a lot of magic i hear in his playing and now i undertand better his principles. until now i was just amazed with his level as super complicated, now it is a much more clear.
thank you for sharing
I have been religiously studying this sample of Pat’s playing. One thing I realized that Pat and Brecker have in common, if you slow down their playing by 20%, you realize that the notes they are playing, regardless of how fast and “straight” the rhythms sound, they are still swung. Mind-blowing.
I must admit to never being a huge Pat Metheny fan. For one reason there are so many clones. His sound always seemed over processed to me and some of the records were a little on the easy listening side. But hearing this I am just knocked out. His playing is so solid, time is impeccable, great lines, and delivery. What a tremendous player, communicator, and teacher. Thanks so much!
This.
Everything he's saying is astonishing, and the criticism is realistic. If anyone's ever taken lessons with a master musician, this is how they sound. It IS a humbling experience, nature of the beast.
A short list of some of the things that stuck out to me.
-Hearing everything you're NOT playing in terms of rhythm.
-Feeling the smallest subdivision over the tune you're playing and being able to play right on top, way behind, or in the middle consciously and on-demand.
-Telling the other guitarist that he needs to become more critical of his rhythms.
-Telling the other guitarist that his harmony was overly-simplistic (that he wasn't "describing the chords" - great way to say it).
-Talking about how important it is to be able to switch between picking and not picking phrases to consciously affect articulation.
-How having great time can really make a player's lines even with straight note choice.
-Pointing out that the other player tended to land on notes that are harmonically weak.
GREAT summary. I'd like to add that he said your 8ths should be much closer to straight 8ths, and more equally weighted
teddy d
Thank you. Yeah, that too.
Pat was right about the guys rhythm ...although when he talked about the triplet Pat did play a lot of 16th notes. I also thought Pat was understating the harmonic aspect of what was being played as not everyone can play over changes with only chord tones and extensions in real-time and the guy taking the lesson was basically playing scales. I bet Pat could effortlessly play over Giant Steps wheras the guy would struggle through it if play it at all.
I think the triplet thing is Pat's way of talking about the circular nature of rhythm... and the way swung eighths (and swung sixteenths) should have that triplet sound in jazz. That's what makes it swing, is if you can feel the triplets over eighths. That was my interpretation of it, anyway -- more feeling the triplets over everything rather than just playing triplets.
Good point about the harmony. Maybe too advanced, right? Just playing chord tones (with no extensions) would probably be challenging enough, let alone adding in more specific harmony.
What an amazing treat! Pat is not being arrogant In the least. He's frankly sharing his opinion and knowledge in a direct, patient, and respectful way that can only help the student. If we were only as fortunate to learn from such a master.
Next to Wes Montgomery,Pat Matheny is my favorite guitars!!!!!!
I first saw Pat Matheny on television it was either Don Kirshner's rock concert or Burt Sugarman's midnight special back in 1978 I believe. After seeing the group I was hooked! I will see him perform every chance I get!
Also, a very pleasant musician to talk to.
Thank you, Jelle. Editing and sharing this is an invaluable service to humanity. 🚀
Why would anyone want to remove this? Metheny's advice are jewels of wisdom that a player of any level could heed and apply. Metheny's info is so valuable, I can't image even him not wanting to share this with the world.
The song they play is John Coltrane's Mr P.C. from his Giant Steps album (which is a fast blues).
Regarding "hearing all 12 tones over any chord"/outside playing, i'm 99% confident he took that from David Liebman's book "A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody" as I remember him talking about it on either his blog or somewhere else online. But as Pat will tell you, there are no shortcuts to music. Don't just pick this book up in the hope to get to be able to do the things Metheny and Brecker do, get your hands really dirty into the basics of harmony and scales and anything he offers here. If you can't play amazing lines with just the chord tones (hear Metheny's example in the video here, or there is also one in the book "the Metheny Interviews" where Metheny includes a transcription of a solo using only the notes of a chord and I think it's even just the triads, not even a 7th), then this book certainly is not going to make things better for you.
Metheny really is a great teacher. He should do more of that.
Why would he? He makes great money performing worldwide.
This was so awesome. I will be coming back to this often. For now, it’s time shop some Sonny Rollins and find a solo of his to learn. Thank you!!
Thanks a lot for uploading this video, it´s a kind of jewel
Great lesson; very interesting hearing Metheny's take on soloing. Very instructive and helpful. Thanks for posting; a real treasure of insights.
This is a great recording. I couldn't find it either. Heard it years ago. Thank you for re-uploading
Thanks so much for sharing! Man how lucky was that guy to get a lesson with Pat!!!!
I’ve heard this before, but just really heard it tonight.
This video is for me pure gold!!!! thanks for posting it !
wow. some dudes here saying PM was *harsh? shows his respect for the student that he's not sugar-coating it. he's teaching an already-accomplished player how to get to the next level. jeez if I got an hour from PM, the last thing I'd want is him telling me I was nailing it.
“I can hear all 12 tones now as it relates to any chord, it took me a long time to be able to do that”
I saw Pat with the Gary Burton Quartet in 1975. Pat pretty much stole the show. Halfway through the set Gary introduced him as his new guitar player, but later said "I don't think he will be staying in my band" ... judging from the applause after Pat's solos.
And since then, Burton has worked with a young Kurt Rosenwinkel, and now Julian Lage. It seems that Gary has a nose for up-and-coming guitarists.
Gary was right, also Pat has said he had wanted to start his own solo career in the earnest and record his debut (maybe independently) back in 1974, not long after he joined Gary's band, but Gary advised him against it, saying he needed more experience, so Pat relented. But Gary knew....
It's really great of you to share this lesson! Many important points and topics. Thank you very much. Really.
It's rare to listen to this, and so it's good for that reason - to hear such a major player talk about playing.
On the other hand, one doesn't come away feeling too motived, does he? I've had teachers like this. In a way, it's all about them, and good luck if you want to be someone they'd consider worth listening to.
This is about absorbing what you can. I think that is how it is with most high profile players in lessons such as these.
That's really it. No one is going to hand it all to anyone on a platter. And, even if they could, which doesn't really seem possible, it couldn't all be absorbed at once anyhow. This is to say, persistence eventually pays off. You may not get it in one lesson, or even in 100 lessons, but maybe on the 150th lesson something big will click for you and you will make a leap forward in your playing.
Guitar students such as beginners or intermediate players represent lots and lots of lovely undeclared tax-free $$$$$$$ to guitar teachers! Most of them couldn't teach a dog to bark and know it.
Children need motivation from teachers. Grown ups get motivated by listening to good players. What I would want from a master class is honest feedback and demonstrative examples - which Pat is giving in spades.
I first heard this a few years ago and have thought of it many times since. Really glad to see this is back up, thanks. I’m getting even more out of it now, now that my ear is more developed.
The part about hearing all extensions on any chord really stuck with me.
Pat said something in this lesson that finally hit me...and TOLD me how to really solo in the post bop era. I’ve been playing hard since 1971, have a degree in music and practice nearly everyday. What he said was quick and answered the students question as to how to get away from soloing off the beat.
He answered ‘ no, I feel it in my stomach’. Great tip.
The beat is felt in your gut...wait a sixteenth note and...take OFF...using rhythmic variations with your pick and right hand. As far as notes...you are really only a half step away with any ‘wrong note’.
Think he's saying "Liebman" in the bleeped out spots... very formative lesson for me, thanks for posting
Really? I though 'Lovano' or 'Garzone', but you might be right...
I think you’re correct
Pats snappy pick sound is so percussive and swinging. Wonder how he sounds on drums. Love listening to his time without anything else.
"you sound like a guitar player"
lol!
Thank you for sharing! ❤
Thank you so much for posting this .
This is so on the money. A great lesson! Thanks for posting.
czcams.com/video/ULboUrX-_pM/video.html&ab_channel=DanielPinto
Wow, what an insightful lesson from the master himself.
love pat's language at the start ! wow...
I once played with a guitarist in South Africa that couldn't read any music but a giant guitar player, what he only needed was just how the song goes and then when you played him or sang the song he would play it and then kick us!!! Pat Metheny needs a little theme and then without asking you for chord changes, he would kick arse with his improvisations!!!
phenomenal... so much food for thought
Can someone help me saying who he is indicating as good to listen to in 23:46? I couldn`t understand. Thanks!
Sonny Rollins!
Wow... Pat Metheny blows me away everytime
I've been playing for 30 years and never been able to get anything together. it's my therapy I guess.
This is awesome- thank you for sharing!
Awesome lesson. Thnx for posting!
can anybody here explain me though, what pat was saying @33:53 ? how are the triplets supposed to be coming out as even 8 notes?
Even though the rhythm is technically a triplet, most players "swing" slightly differently than others. Many play it with a more even 8th note approach (but never actually playing straight 8ths). Transcribing solos and playing along with them has helped me get a feel for what he means. It takes a long time to really get down, and I have a ways to go.
Bobby Gotsch Yes, I think I understand what you're saying, I can hear it in hid phrasing. I was puzzled when he said they should sound almost straight - I thought this was a matter of style.
I assumed he was talking about the duration of each note, not the location.
Thanks for posting this. Very interesting!
What Pat says is that you must just "thrive on a riff" whether it's rhythmic or melodic.
Thank you so much! Great for every guitarist..
Awesome Channel- I really enjoyed watching!
Best wishes, Max
This is a treasure for me where I'm at. Hope the guy taking a lesson in this got it together. He was smart to record it and listen back; he wasn't grokkiing what PM was saying during the lesson - after the second song they played he was like "Is my rhythm better now?" LOL. I bet he listened back to this every day and it ground him down to really shedding on rhythm. I hope he got to the level he wanted.
BTW I love how PM says fantästic LOL
Thanks for posting this, bro.
Victor Wooten said the same thing about learning music most of it focusses on the notes and not the rhythm and time feel. Better to play with good time and wrong notes then the right notes with bad time. Locking into the groove and swinging.
@charligj: Pat talked about Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, John Scofield, Jim Hall, Wes Montgomery. etc.
The rhythm thing is crucial but your "Sound" has to incorporate dynamic rhythm. That's why playing fundamentals are cool if you this technique. Make sure your not playing all the notes with the same volume but with changing dynamics. Its like Jaco would say upfront about his playing.."I play with dynamics"
Very cool. Thanks
i wonder which sax player pat was comparing to Brecker. Funny that they blurred out his name I wonder who did that
Clarence Clemons
My guess: Branford.
I know! I noticed it and had to play it back. Wonder who it is...
Kenny G
I say Lovano or Garzone. But someone wrote 'Liebman'...any of those 3 is a great guess IMO.
"The main thing you have to work on is rhythm, by far. But I gotta say, harmonically... You got a lot of work there too." LMFAO
ouch
Wow! What a find. Thanks!
Great lesson, very interesting.
I get your point about knowing the structure of music, but I'm also thinking that improv is supposed to take you out. I don't think it's important to dwell on a player's knowledge of structure vs. musical intuition and skill with the instrument. It's kind of like classical vs. rock.
Bro this shit was insane. You should hear the people in my high school orchestra. Dont even know how to play a scale past the first octave. Its like the rest of the neck doesnt even exist
Does Pat metheny play the same exact licks on every tune, just modified for key and tempo?
HI, does anyone please know the name of the minor blues they play at the beginning of the video? It's driving me crazy.
mr p.c. - coltrane
Thank you for re-uploading
It is near impossible to find folks who understand the rhythm thing he's talking about. most people play 8th note swing in that sloppy way as if they have no idea about the underlying triplets.
Exactly. You need to "hear" the micro timing triplets even if you don't play them. If you have a constant imagination of these triplets even the simple things will sound great. Simple 4th notes will turn into a fingersnapping foottapping thing for the listener.
Fitzliputzli23 agreed! that said, i need a little face time with my metronome, lol.
The problem is that most people under 60 discovered jazz by hearing fusion - Bitches Brew, Weather Report, and the like. Fusion generally retains the straight 8th note feel of rock. I am lucky to have discovered jazz before fusion existed and listened to a lot of Blue Note stuff and early Miles, Monk, etc. so to me jazz means triplets and anything without triplets is hybrid at most. "Don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing" is a reference to the triplet feel.
I'm one of them. I wonder if could you please explain the triplets thing?
spanch kaze the triplets, straight 8th, and 16ths are always present even if the groove is straight 8ths or 16ths. And when you play 8ths over a swung 8th note groove you don't need to play swung 8ths, you can, but the straight 8ths and 16th are still there and occupy a different slot in the groove than the swung 8ths. I don't know how clear that is.
this is fantastic!!
Is there a way to download the sound material as compressed audio file ?
There is some very valuable information within this video.
And I thank you too for posting. I need to come back and hear this from time to time to remind me to work on what He outlined in this lesson. I wish I could ask him about the timing thing ... I think I would need to see it on paper for the definition of playing "on top, behind, floating, and inside" the beat. I don't quite understand that. I though at first Pat mentioned "floating" within the beat is good, but later He said not, am I correct? - Anyways, very cool lesson. I need to grab ahold some how.
+Kdog123123 You can play on top, behind, or on the beat. Behind the beat is the relaxed feel you hear in Dexter Gordon's playing. You play at the same speed as the meter of the tune, but slightly behind. On the beat is when you play exactly where the beats are. Etc.
Thanks!!! Amazing
Chord tones are KING! As is Metheny :-)
Oh yeah, and CONVICTION is king as well.
daleturner Right on, playing with conviction, intent is where it's all at! Also, if you can be totally comfortable with all of the "wrong" sounding notes, an entire new world of sound will open up to you.
Jay Umble Amen brosef!!! Well said! Self-editing in "real time" is a dangerous thing! And like you say, play it like you mean it, and everyone will think you meant it. Nice little "safety net," of sorts.
Chord tones are king but can also be boring
Mathew Reichardt Agreed! Anyone who ONLY uses chord tones would certainly be boring as heck! But really, anyone talking about the importance of chord tones usually means they are the "glue" to stick all sorts of harmonic concepts, targets from chromatic passing tones, voice-leading-through-changes things, starting/stopping points for "learned" phrases, etc. They don't mean "only chord tones."
Pat was like, "I can count about four guitar players, in the world, in history, who had this kind of thing...me being one of them." lol, he is fantastic.
spoken like a Berklee person.
he did not go there. he was sent there as a teacher by gary burton. pat is one of these guys that do not need a college to play and compose and arrange and mix and master...because that's what he would do anyway.
Very Kool!
13:41 "You could hear every chord change in the line." "You weren't really saying the changes." Can someone explain what he means by implying the changes? What does he mean describing the chords? ...all the harmonic information?
***** I grasp all that you are saying in a general sense. I guess my question was a bit more specific. I'm curious how players like Pat have such a strong melodic compass. Wes had it too. He mentioned how Coltrane is playing upon the extensions. I wonder if those substitutions you were mentioning are the things trane was using and what Pat was referring to. I don't know. I also liked when Pat said he'd prefer the student play simple melodically pleasing phrases versus long meaningless ones. But what makes a phrase sound more contextually sound? I just have too many questions. I wish I could study with such a great teacher.
Agreed!
Start with an exercise called 'walking' - slow metronome, play only crotchets and 'walk", just like a bass, and try to only play chord tones ('outline the changes')- Cm7 = C,Eb,G,Bb - G7 = G,B,D,F. You must change with the harmony eg. 1 bar of Cm + 1 bar of G7 means 4 crotchets each chord. If you can't keep up slow down or play Minims instead. Gradually subdivide into Eighths, triplets etc. Gradually expand the harmony. Easy to say, lifetime of work. Hope this helps.
i guess somebody already has figured out who the other guitar player is, it sounds like the voice of Mike Moreno, am i wrong??? thanks!
Does anyone know of any other examples or recordings of Pat were his playing is comparable to how it is here? I’ve listened a good ampunt of Pat’s stuff, but his style on his actual recordings/original compositions tends to vary a lot given the harmonic material, etc. I can’t seem to find recordings of Pat playing over standards/more straight aheadish jazz material like this.
Rejoicing 1983, Question and Answer 1989 and Trio 99/00 and Trio 99/00 Live. All trio playing standards and are brilliant.
@@pigsyj5008 I'm a little late to the reply, but thanks!
@@trevorbadger91 No problem.
@@trevorbadger91 It's a different style of playing, but if you haven't heard it check out a record of Billy Cobham from 1976 called "Life and Times" with Scofield. Fantastic modern style jazz rock/funk.
Thanks for posting what I’m not sure about is he talks about feeling the triplet subdivision in a swing beat, and 16th note subdivision in a straight beat, yet he later says that they should be nearly as straight as possible, the eighth notes. Can someone enlighten?
Think he means complete control. U wouldn't want true triplets though , doesn't sound good
hah i wonder what name was muted around 21:45
it is rumored to be dave liebman
21:45 Pat Compared timing of Brecker to who?
From what I can gather, the guy getting the one-to-one must be one hell of a player in his own right. Otherwise, Pat wouldn't even talk to him at all about anything. When he visited Sydney the only people who got to meet him were musician friends/students of high powered jazzers. That's my perception from what I heard talking to people post-gig. I was hoping to at least get a signature or a passing photo... no dice... :(
+CTuxford no that guy isnt that good
+handdancin How do you figure? There must be a special reason for a run-of-the-mill player to get Pat's time. What makes you think the player is lame?
bad time and doesn't hit the changes, i mean pretty much what pat said. sometimes bad players get lessons from the top guys. its not like this guy just started playing, but he isn't a standout.
I know the story behind this whole thing. The student is a friend of one of my professors, and what I was told is that he was very rich, and got in contact with Pat. Mind you, this is 30+ years ago so being able to contact and access someone big in Jazz was a lot easier because there was no social media. From what my prof told me, this guy was a terrible player, and wasn’t a very humble/nice guy, and he scored a lesson with the greatest jazz guitarist in the world, and I’m sure he learned a lot about jazz, improvisation, and himself. Let’s face it, he got his ass kicked, and I’ve had many lessons like this, and each time I walk away with something to aspire to, and something new to explore. People are saying Pat is being very abrasive, and I have to politely disagree, because sometimes it needs to be layed out very plain and simple that someone has to get in the shed and make progress. Ultimately, you get what you pay for, but be wise. I hate lessons where I get the “you sound fantastic” bullshit. Like come on!!! Rip me apart haha!
@@themusicianist6258 I agree with. I've met abrasive musicians. I think Pat was assertive, honest, direct, and supportive. He made a very clear case as to why he said what he said, and emphasized it perfectly so that it would resonate. We should all be so lucky!
Poor guy. He probably thought he's pretty good. Then Metheny tells him "you've got a lot of work to do on the rhythm" and later "and you also have a lot of work to do harmonically". What a bummer... :-)
+Ivan Torres Maybe it's a blow to the ego, but if I had a lesson with Metheny, and he pointed out things to work on, I wouldn't be miffed--I'd be grateful. I'm not paying a teacher to tell me how good I am! :)
The thing is that harmony is deliberately more subjective than rhythm is. When it comes to playing over a tune and swinging , there are things that sound good and bad rhythmically because you are trying to fit into a pocket that has a deliberate feel. Harmony is completely the opposite, at least to me. We can sit around all day and judge on if Coltrane or Bird or Miles played a certain type of musical device and how to execute it, or if something technically corresponds in even the vaguest way with the underlying harmony of whatever chord you are playing over, but its a moot point. I know plenty of amazing musicians who think about harmony as nothing more than cells of notes with various intervallic relationships that are streamlined together, and are completely atonal .... almost to the point of adopting a system more reminiscant of 20th century classical and serialist composers compared to the bebop masters. Coltrane was even this way later in his life, deriving many methods from Slonomisky's book ... a largely atonal approach to harmony that deals with the relation of notes to each other, NOT to the underlying harmony. Amazing musicians, who have made a successful career for themselves think this way. Of course there are amazing guys who think more towards Pat's mentality. He is thinking of a way of playing that can be extremely dissonant and modern at its most complicated but at its core is still a carefully executed system of tensions and releases that takes into consideration the underlying harmony. Who is to say whats right? Was Schoenberg wrong for not wanting to compose like Mahler or Wagner? This is why I love certain teachers and hate certain teachers. Teachers that help you develop what you already have into something better are always the best. Maybe Pat is this way, I didnt listen to the student play, so its hard to know if Pat just didnt like his style or if he had a lot to work on regardless (developing a musical voice so to speak) ... but I generally don't like teachers who present their methods as the end all be all and think anything else is wrong. If everyone approached this music the same way it would be boring anyways, and god knows Ive heard enough bebop for a lifetime.
Continuing on this train of thought. What is honesty? If someone told me my sense of harmony was wrong but another says that they love it who is right? This whole mindset that I frequently see from music students today that they want to get "their asses kicked" in a lesson has never made sense to me and the whole "honesty" thing is usually never more than charade for some big shot to stroke his ego. The best teachers work with students to help them really emphasize their strengths and balance out their weaknesses in a way that is flattering to them. This coming from a guy who has recorded albums with Jerry Bergonzi and George Garzone + did a year and a half of extensive study with Hal Crook during my time at Berklee. I mean this in the best way possible. I think this type of mindset is destroying and preventing younger players from developing something that is more unique. To many players are told that they are doing everything wrong and need to start from scratch.
Metheny's comment, tho, that the student is "floating above" the harmony is spot on. Is this guy really emphasizing the particulars of the harmony as the changes, erm, change? Or is he simply playing a mode or two? It's more of the latter. Sure, musical aesthetics, like any aesthetics, are subjective, but is this student _able_ to play altered patterns over II-V-I changes? It sounds like he can't, more than just he doesn't want to. I don't want everyone to sound the same, either, but there's a difference between choosing a different path and just lacking skill. One can be _able_ to do what great artists have done; in fact, I would say that that ability is often a prerequisite for being a great artist oneself. Being truly great is taking that skill and expanding it to create new sounds that haven't been heard in that way before.
Well, it sounds like this was a one time thing, so pats job here was to really let the guy know where exactly he is now, where he should try to be and what he has to work for the next few years.
I was surprised how openly critical Pat was of his student. I'm sure Pat knew what he was talking about, but this is a good illustration of what a specialized skill teaching is compared to performing.
The best teachers I've had have been remarkably positive, always reinforcing what I did well, and making positive suggestions for expanding other things.
The last thing you want to do is make a music student self-conscious. Then the ego steps in and tries to control the music-and that's exactly the opposite from the openness and trust you want to cultivate in them.
Direct criticism may _seem_ like a faster route to improvement, but in the long run, it sets students back.
Openly critical? how about constructive, objective, accurate and what the guy paid for ... I guess when you go to the doctor and he tells you you have strep throat you feel criticized.
If you are getting a lesson from Pat Metheny, in the Drum Machine Era (tm) then he's not your teacher. You asked for a lesson with an acknowledged master of the instrument. This isn't a kid asking how to play a blues. This is an adult, who asked for it, and he got it. This is what that lesson should be. The WORST master classes are the ones where you're just getting a big fat pat on the back. It's not a student. It's an adult. If you get a lesson from someone on this level, put your insecurities aside, and HEAR what they're saying. Because like it or not, this is what your informed audience thinks when they hear you. Deal with the fact that you're not there yet, and decide if you have what it takes to get there. VERY DIFFERENT if this were a child, or this were your weekly teacher. You get one shot with someone like this. PLEASE prefer the truth, instead of the fluff.
I agree in a general sense but I think this lesson is very constructive! I know teachers who are very negative and it doesnt compare, also this seems more like a one-time kind of lesson and in that kind of situation you want a very clear impulse
It's a teacher's job to be honest about a student's weaknesses.
Especially if the player is serious, which you assume he is as he's taking a lesson with Pat Metheny.
Metheny isn't there to tell build him up. He's there to tell him what he needs to work on.
I´d rather take a lesson with a GREAT musician like Pat Metheny than from a great teacher, How would a teacher teach things he is not experienced? Like playin with a lot of great musicians. If you want to get better you got to be eager to be beaten up.
Nice music
What's up with the cutouts? Censoring?
It was done out of kindness and respect for someone.
somebody somewhere said you can play any note you want as long as you land on the right note
It’s impressive that Pat would even take what little time he has to teach someone on this level. The cat must’ve had a good connection…But it’s good it happened:-)
would live to know what year this was recorded
How does one get a lesson with Pat Metheny?
Good question
Simply go back in time to when he was teaching at U Miami or Berklee.... I very much doubt he's interested in teaching at all at this point in his career, other than possibly some brief group seminar at some special event.
he has had clinics with lodging that cost around 4k if I remember correctly
This is probably well over 20 years ago
"im not playing any scale tones, just chord tones."
using notes within the chord rather than playing the 'appropriate ' scale over each chord.
C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
CHORD
Major = 1 3 5 7
Minor = 1 b3 5 b7
Dominant = 1 3 5 b7
half diminished = 1 b3 b5 b7
full diminished = 1 b3 b5 bb7
augmented 7 = 1 3 #5 b7
by playing the just chord tones you highlight the changes thats occurring with the chords
Daniel O'Keefe If people want to think of these things in a certain way, fine by me. When you teach people and talk these things as if they are true ,then i got a problem. When you say you don't play scale tones ,wtf does that mean? The chord tones and the scale are the same thing in different form. How can you not play any scale tones when the chord tones are in the scale? The scale is just to have some guidelines in the tonality .You are not obligated to play all the scale tones up and down ,you know? I find that many good players talk bullshit like this and it's frustrating.
AtanasovPetar
When you outline each chord by playing the 4 notes that each chord holds then you are playing the changes. You are quite right that the notes are in the scale, but by approaching a form with scales that match the chords means that the colour each chord has, gets lost.
SCALE TONES ARE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
CHORD TONES are using notes that are derived from the scale to create a chord
1 3 5 7
C major SCALE
C D E F G A B
C major 7 CHORD
C E G B
HOWEVER!
Chords are not limited to the 1 3 5 and 7 you can use extensions
Example D7b9
1 3 5 b7 b9
So play those notes...
I never said "Don't play the scale tones". You have to learn to walk before you can run. Being able to highlight only the chord tones, being the 1 3 5 7, means that you are aware and in control of what note you play and MORE IMPORTANTLY how that note colours the chord! Once you are able to do that start adding in extensions, b9 9 #9 11 #11 b13 13. Do you know what each of these colours do to the chord? then how can you appropriately play what you hear in your head?
THIS IS ONE APPROACH AND THIS IS PAT METHANY'S APPROACH!
Its like being a painter and having 12 colours and instead of thinking well these 4 certain colours would compliment this part of the painting. You think I am going to randomly choose 8 of these colours because they kinda of all work.... How can you ever replicate something amazing if you're unaware of how you actually created it?
And like anything you go through the four stages of Knowledge
Unconscious Incompetence
Conscious Incompetence
Conscious Competence
Unconscious Competence
After a very long time you know the chord tones so well you don't have to think you just listen to what is in your head and it comes out on your instrument. You no longer have to be aware of what the chord consists of because they become all sounds, but how do you learn that......... well you start off by learning the fundamentals.
OR you can just play what you think sounds nice over each chord and learn by using yours ears and never have to bring in 'paper work' or theory... Why are the best the best, why do their solos sound so good...Because they can consistently do it. How you get to that point of consistently playing well and bringing people to climaxes and by telling a story with your playing.
However you feel like getting there..
AtanasovPetar ALSO music comes first. Music theory is a language used to explain how to create particular sounds. That doesn't mean you have to understand theory to play music. There are plenty of amazing players that don't know what they are theoretically doing but they can out play people that have an understanding. Have you ever listened to a player that can't use a different language to explain what they're doing? They can only show you by playing and their moto is usually just copy your favourite players and learn by using your ears. It's not by any means a bad thing but its just a different approach.
Why not combine these approaches?
AtanasovPetar He doesn't mean it literally, it's more like his melodies are based on chord tones and not just all over the place. Of course, there are scale tones on his solo, you can hear it.
what guitar brand is on the pic?
15:35
some guys are not ...gifted ? talented ? lol ! but they believe in it ! so many on you tube ! metheny is very kind !
You become part of the rhythm section as a soloist. ....so true !
nice
What kind of drum machine is he talking about/recommending there?
I think anything that can loop up a swing pattern in time is what he is talking about.
Thanks, ikb. I found a pretty cool app that does that pretty well called Drumgenius. You can buy individual loops or groups, or just the whole/future boatload for $10. I guess it would be better to have loops longer than 2-4 bars, but it sounds/feels pretty amazing to me.
Today we have an amazing variety of drums to use via computer software. Samples of real drummers, "machines" via software emulation.
Glad to help :)
Pat was a little harsh bur, if you have shortcomings in your playing and no one tells you, thats not good either. So its a good thing. Of course we didnt hear the entire lesson, but Pat never tells him what he needs to do to make his harmonic and rhtymic playing better. Where are the execercises? You have to be a good teacher. The rhtymic thing is HUGE. its not just playing with a good drummer. Its the whole African thing that needs to be taught. Take lessons with pianist Mike Longo who played with Dizzy Gillespie. He will get your rhythm thing together like you would not believe.
He did tell him though, weren't you listening?
Around 22:00, who is Pat comparing Michael Brecker to in regard to Brecker's sense of harmony versus this other individual? My computer was either cutting it out at the name, or its the video.
I totally think it's getting cut out, looking back. 21:30 is a better estimate of Pat speaks about it.
Sounds like “Dave Liebman”, but I’m speculating based on what it sounds likes he could be saying.
I think I know when and where this is from.
Many interesting ideas what Pat Metheny said but one of his base axiom about rhythm I think is not proved. Rhythm is extremely important it's true, even a few notes with groove could be create and sell the music, I also agree. Montgomery, Miles, and many other great musicians had incredibly great rhythm which is practically unlearnable . But not because they "sink into" the rhythm section, instead exactly the opposite: they are "floating over" the rhythm section in a very musical way, swinging or telling poetry with their rhythm and accents like speech. Not talking about Dexter Gordon, or probably all singers. Pat Metheny is very different, it is true that he many times "sinks into" with creating extremely interesting rhythm but his music is very different from the listed ones.
I never found Pat to be on same level as those guys he talks about
'His axiom about rhythm is not proven'? What is there to prove? Pat is just talking about steadiness. When Pat talks about 'floating over' - to me it means irregular, unsteady.
'Practically unlearnable'? Of course you can work on steadying your rhythm.
@@dirkbertels3872 in my comment "Practically unlearnable" refers to my examples of floating over (see there) and not PMs steadiness. Let's forget about proving, I just wrote the majority of the greats are exactly does the opposite what Pat emphasizes: they are almost always floating over. Of course this does mean they do not have the exact internal sense of the steady clock
Lol "I've never had anyone tell me to work on my rhythm." I could tell that his rhythm was sliding. Smh.
21:40 alright now, stop this tomfoolery. The name please...