Some tempo choices “FEEL RIGHT” but RUIN the music
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- 9 things to remember when looking for the perfect tempo for a piece, that go beyond asking your teachers and/or just going by "feel."
00:00 Your tempo could be ruining the music...
00:26 Why going by "feel" falls short sometimes
01:30 Tip 1
02:23 Tip 2
03:00 Tip 3
05:08 Tip 4
06:28 Tip 5
07:31 Tip 6
08:28 Tip 7
09:07 Tip 8
09:18 Tip 9
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#tempo #performance #music - Hudba
Comparing the tempo of a piece with the tempo of a sentence, wow, that's true, it changes the meaning, what a wonderful comparison.
Thank you!!! 🙏🏻
If you like the comparison between language and music try the "the unanswered question" lectures by Bernstein which are all on youtube. It takes a while but not longer than a Netflix limited series ^^
@@tobiasgretenkort463 i Will try, thank you!
@@tobiasgretenkort463 Also thanks from me!
Bernstein: "Glen Gould plays this at a different tempo, just as a fair warning"
Also Bernstein: Conducts Shostakovitch 5 finale as fast as one can get away with :D
Also Bernstein: Conducts Mahler 2 finale as slow as one can get away with
Well, at least it was enough for him to get away with it
Remember that Shostakovtich was very keen on that its the conductor interpreting the pieces playing so he left out tempi markers many times. So in sense you can hear lots of different variants of the same symfony. :-) Wich is kinda cool. :-)
@@neil7137 Mahler's 9 finale as well :D
@@kaloyanpaunov Bernstein literally transformed the last chord of Mahler 9 into some kind of ambience piece.
One of the things I realized rehearsing and performing songs was that the audience likely hasn't heard the piece as recently as you have and subtleties, even well and accurately performed, will be lost on them if you play too fast.
Thanks for this, you have nicely summed up a lot of the things I have been trying to communicate to band mates over the years.
Yes, absolutely and even as an experience musician, my second listening of a piece (whatever it may be) is always more enjoyable than my first. As a performer, it can be frustrating when the audience can't appreciate the length of thought that you have put into a well crafted performance.
However, when I get frustrated I try and remember what a wise teacher told me "You should never approach a piece without *wonder* in your ear, like the first time you are hearing it." That is to say, play with the wonder that made you listen to the piece again and again, it should never sound as though you purposely made your interpretation very elaborate for the sake of making it elaborate. Do what feels right and K.I.S.S.
Keep It Simple Stupid
I only started listening to classical a couple of years ago, coming from metal and pop listening. In that world fans go to concerts knowing every song word for word, beat for beat. All fans know when Slipknot's tempo slows for a bar of triplets just before the final "All I've got is insane" part in Duality. Carly Rae Jepsen fans know she sings a minor second interval in the last chorus of Run Away With Me. They may not know the musical terms for these musical changes, but fans feel them and can sing them when they come because they have listened to them over and over. I'm taking the same approach to classical. I saw Tchaikovsky's Violin Concerto back in January and I knew it inside out before I went. I listened to the other pieces played that night too. The audience is full of people who are ready to hear what you want to play for them so please, keep it full tempo for those of us who put in the time preparing to hear you.
Can relate 100%, even to my non classical musical endeavours ⌛️🙏🏼 I like this!
Thank you Cuckoo!!! 🙏🏻
@@NahreSol Thank you Nahre, I hope you don't forget to respond to my message about how you compose when you can. It would really mean a lot. Thanks very much.
@@leif1075 you can't seriously be expecting free lessons on composition techniques by leaving a comment on a CZcams channel lol
@@AdrianMark Her videos are practically free mini lessons and she answers similar questions from others so I don't see the difference or a problem?
Thank You Nahre Sol!!!
I remember a talk show years ago where the pianist Hai-Kyung Suh talked about her forced year off piano after having a severe muscle issue. How I recall is like this. She was so happy not having to practice -- the order being from the doctor made it a perfectly valid excuse -- she grew her fingernails and went to cafes and spent hours and days with friends, etc.
When she came back, she said, everything was different. Anew and refreshing. Then she really fell in love with the piano. Including practicing. As always, thanks for giving us a refreshing way to look at music and stuff. 🎹🎶⏳
Haha loved Bernstein's disclaimer; but yes, if you have a justification for your tempo choice, it usually works. I have compared conductors tempi in previous videos and even the most extreme slow vs fast choices will usually both work, because the idea behind the choice is clear. Great video :)
One piece for which I feel neither of the extremes of interpretation works is Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. In slow recordings, it feels like there’s too much weight on the notes and not a lot of momentum, definitely not enough to deserve the marking of Allegro con Brio. And the Adagio of the oboe cadenza doesn’t sound as dramatically different as it should either because the tempos of the cadenza and the rest of the Allegro con Brio are too close.
In fast recordings like that of Roman Spitzer with the Israel Philharmonic, there’s the opposite problem. There’s too much momentum and too little weight. It sounds more like a slow Presto than a fast Allegro. The brass can’t keep up with the rest of the orchestra at this fast of a tempo for Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony and the oboe cadenza is no longer coherent with the Allegro con Brio, it’s too drastic of a tempo difference.
160 quarter notes per minute is the sweet spot for Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony. It’s fast, but not too fast and everything is as it should be.
Great information on tempo. I'm a drummer who plays a lot of different genres of music in which ,for some, a variation in tempo can be excusable or even expected. Biggest "gripe" I have is how people expect the drummer to "keep time" for the band, where as everybody is responsible for keeping their own time...the drummer simply happens to be playing figures which more consistently outline/state the tempo. The timekeeping shouldn't disappear if the drummer stops playing. If it's groove oriented music...the groove should still be consistently implied if the drummer drops out. Interesting experience: playing in an contemporary gospel ensemble with a pianist who's only classically trained...the pianist was always rubato and couldn't relate to playing consistent tempo! She was a beautiful soul, though. Other experience: Playing with Ethiopian musicians and singers who had been culturally overtaken by the drum machine, which could play "perfect time" all night, back to back performers and never got tired...me, not so perfect and got very tired...but I was younger and it was a great experience!
Interesting anecdotes; thanks for sharing.
I’m not a musician but I always appreciate your ability to communicate extremely complex ideas so clearly ⌛️
This is so thoughtful, you have such a wonderful way of conveying your ideas-neither too simple, nor too complicated, and never overbearing. I love what you say about documenting yourself. Thank you :)
Every time I watch one of your videos my respect for you and your work deepens! I become aware of things I had either never thought of at all, or see old ideas from new angles or perspectives. Obviously every educated musician has thought about tempo, but I find it brilliant to address considerations of tempo in this way! BRAVO for yet another fine and thought provoking video!
I once did a tempo experiment with the 2nd movement of the Pathetique Sonata. I did not like hearing it being played too slow as some were inclined to do. So I imagined that a group of handbell-playing Buddhist monks lived on my fingertips, and every note they played was an expression of a lifetime of meditation. I played the adagio so slowly that Beethoven would have thrown something at my head, swore at me, and ordered me to never play his music again. As an interpretation of Beethoven, it was not so good. However, in the new context of meaning imposed upon the music, the absurdly slow playing brought out a new life in the piece.
I can relate. Even though I’m not a professional, I was asked to play that piece for school event with teacher as my mentor to perfect it. When I play the piece to him, I already played really slow but he told me “you need to play more musically, try to play slower” and I trust his opinion because he’s an actual musician.
Beautiful 🤩
This is what makes music, and playing music, so fascinating. Every time can be a discovery, a new acquainting with.
I love the way you break things down. It helps me make sense of things a lot more clearly in my head. Thank you! ❤️❤️❤️
I’m glad someone finally addressed such an important and overlooked part of music. It’s remarkable to me to hear so many fine and accomplished musicians get everything right and fall short by performing a piece either too fast or too slow! I have made that mistake myself, more than l care to admit. But at some point, through trial and error, I suppose, l’ve mended my ways. Thank you for posting this video.
Yes, I'm relearning piano after not playing for *many* years. I look up the song on CZcams (from John Thompson book 2) and so often the people play the songs way too fast. But sometimes there is a "real" song and that I can look up from actual performers. There's also a teacher on CZcams for these songs and that also helps a lot.
⏳⌛️
I admire your curiosity and dedication to music and to your viewers. You’re such an insightful musician and I appreciate that you share your honesty and vulnerability with us despite being so talented and well-trained.
I’m an early music enthusiast and the whole thing with tempo always intrigued me. Thank you so much💐💐💐
By the way I subscribed and liked❤️ you’re awesome
Nahre, these videos are just pure gold…I’m a harpist, and play handpan and Middle Eastern drums, and all of what you say can apply to my activities…all the best, and keep ‘em coming…⏳
Wonderful thoughts, examples and playing in this perfectly organized and charming presentation. Thank you!
Thanks for mentioning the tempo of a 'sentence'. As a singer, conductor/amateur pianist, I usually deal with music that has lyrics. Often I isolate a particular part of the song where the right tempo is necessary to convey the meaning properly or even be able to just pronounce all the words. Before I start the piece I recall this part from memory, this then sets the tempo for the entire piece. To me, everything we feel and experience when listening to music, really is based on real life speech patterns and body movements, whether if has words to it or not. Thank you for such an inspiring channel!
I want an extended version of this video. It’d be nice to be able to explore more music at different tempi’s. This video was great, left me wanting more.
⌛! Thank you for a wonderful and very insightful video. I was reminded of what my baroque organ teacher said about playing fast: 'playing fast is exactly the same as playing slow... only faster.' Greetings from an amateur organist in The Netherlands (Europe), Bob
This is one of the most brilliant thumbnails I've seen on CZcams. I've already knew the story and had heard Bernstein's apology before (but never listened to the recording of the music proper), so funny it made me want to watch this video.
I love a slow interpretation of Claire De Lune. It’s such a dreamy, melancholic, bittersweet song, I love when people change the tempo a bit within the piece to almost be swept away by the flourishes and chords but then leave a whole lot of space in between where we’re left with a note suspended. To me, the song is like the feeling of falling in love harder than you ever have in life but being separated for whatever reason from that love in a way where you can’t hope to ever fully ever live with your lover…instead, just you can only remember the beauty and sweetness of the the quality of being in love, repeating back all the images in your mind on a night when you’re up too late drinking wine and walking around the city or a morning where you wake up early with forgotten dreams still running through your head and you can feel something on the horizon calling you before you wipe the sleep out of your eyes and have to get to the reality of whatever the day is asking of you. It’s blissful, it’s sad, it’s beautiful.
one of my few fav. pieces, and I like the way you expressed your feeling of it.
What a fresh description! I've planted so often that I've probably lost track of what effect it could have on the inside of a listener!
I don't play any instruments or know anything about music but love hearing Nahre explaining it with that gusto!
I love watching your videos. Your disposition is so uplifting and encouraging.
You did a terrific job putting this video together with appropriate examples. Thank you!
Sing it! Just sing the piece before touching the keys. The appropriate tempo, but also phrasing, articulation, and dynamics will begin to make sense. And if it’s a dance rhythm, dance it also. Respect the music, put your ego in a drawer, and let the music tell you how it wants to be. Also, be skeptical about the composer’s metronome markings; trust but verify.
Love the thumbnail! 🤣 Recently fell in love with the Gould-Bernstein Brahms recording. Have since listened to many other interpretations and truth is he didn't play it That slow. He did change the dynamics more than other pianists though. Also, he brought out the counterpoint much more than other pianists.
I totally agree! I have a friend who told me about this, and I have discovered the Glenn Gould channel also~
@@francesschaefer Awesome! I was like 12 first time I heard Gould play the prelude and fugue in c# minor from WTC book I and I thought he sounded like an alien. There was so much gravity and momentum in the phrasing. 40 years later his playing still amazes me!
⏳🙏🤘
This is such good advice for all genres of music!
I'm sharing this with the rest of my band because we all struggle with this at one time or another. It can be really frustrating, and yet sometimes, it's kind of fun too.
I love how you discuss considering the interpretation. I think, as a band that plays covers, alongside original music, interpretation is key, because we love to put our own spin on the songs we cover.
Great video! 🙏🙏🙏
Love the small details like the counter on the corner to keep track of all the points made. Great video as always! ⌛
You so inspirational. Thanks for your art.
I just recently decided to get systematic about recording myself. But it surprised me-my reaction was, “Holy cow, that actually sounds like music!”
I have the sensation that I've never played any music in my life. I can only hear myself playing after a long time since I've recorded. Hope I can share this felling to have played some music one day.
This is the most impactful video I’ve ever watched. I dropped out of college as a Piano Major because I couldn’t wrap my head around nor communicate the experiences that you’ve described (over repetition, shifting of experience, desire to break away from traditional expressions, etc.). In fact, I’ve nearly refused to practice or play any of my old repertoire.
I really respect you and your art. You’ve shown a miraculous light on a part of my life that I’ve felt was dead. Thank you so much!!!
These were honestly some of the most useful tips you’ve given, as someone who’s self-taught on the piano, tempo is something that is harder to critique myself on and this was really helpful
Gould's tempi are convincing (most of the time) because of his sensational ability to communicate the underlying pulse. So his slow tempi choices don't feel static because there's always a sense of movement (as slow as it may be). The same with his extremely fast tempi (i.e. some of the Mozart sonatas). He's able to maintain those tempi throughout rushing or lagging.
I would argue that my favorite goul interpretations of Mozart are when he slows them down, such as k331 and K333
@@artygunnar ... my god, that would be scary, goul interpretations.
I once found out that the 1st Movement of Bachs 1st French Suite (which is an Allemande) can sound really great when it is played with less than half the usual speed. It is usually played with quarter notes at something above 70, but you can make a totally different (and great) piece from it when you play it with quarters = 30 (and a lot of expression ;-) )
Thank you for giving us a lot to think about, as well as helpful exercises to execute while practicing. ⏳
I love seeing just how much hard work goes into sounding as amazing as you do, especially for me since I just play as a hobby
amazing video! ⌛️
GG , and others, like younger Pogorelich, had sufficient skills to open different windows to experience the great Master Composers’ sound worlds. Some performances are quite convincing and allow wonderful new realizations, beautiful.
I thoroughly admire your facility for describing music. The words you choose give real depth to the pieces and add immensely to my appreciation.
By the way; "hourglass emoji" (I don't know how to insert them here).
⏳
@@angeloshenan1509 Thanks.
amazing. I clicked on this for my classical piano practice but I actually am leaving with many insights applicable to my practice as a nightclub DJ!!!! in particular thinking about tradition (understanding what the producer of the track was trying to communicate via original tempo) vs. exploring the extreme ends (how will a crowd react to a familiar track at a different tempo, or contrast of tempi within a DJ set) vs. the "performance setting" (the specifics of the sound rig a particular party has, but also the vibe of the party!!). love your videos soooo much.
Your comparison to speech and the separation listening and performing is illuminating and inspiring. I am not a musician but studying theatre. In my experience, when working in more traditional contexts with more traditional texts (either performing, directing or teaching) one of the most known obstacles is your own knowledge of the texts, the themes and concepts. Because of your own acquaintance with the text, either as an director or performer, you are freed to explore the different layers of meaning, to experiment and reinterpret and communicate them through rhythm, dynamics, intonation and speed. At the same time I’ve often found myself and others when rehearsing pieces for the first time, to speak too swiftly to actually communicate the nuances. Especially when I work with non-trained actors I tend to lean to directing them to slow down, and in that sense trying to make them explore and control the expressive properties of the texts within their own limitations (as well as freeing up space and time for connecting action with speech).
Tempo is super fascinating. I've been in a lot of writing/recording sessions where a song hasn't felt right. You know there is a good song there but something is stopping it for blooming. The thing I've learnt to always do is try a simnifically different tempo and instrumentation. It is hard to be humble enough to accept that the jazzy ballad you thought you were writing actually is a fantastic rock song in 140 BPM. It's fun to play around with ⏳ signature as well!
As a composer, I think it's important to realize that a performer may have spent as many hours or many more learning how to play their instrument as I have learning how to compose. Just because their interpretation isn't what I envisioned doesn't mean they're wrong. There will always be a unique blend of tradition and personal experience. Music is a collaboration no matter how you approach it. There is a middle ground between the opinion of any two musicians and any point on that spectrum may be perfectly valid
What I don't understand is why conductors choose their tempo when the composer wrote it with a precise number.
Do they think it's an error ? When Beethoven asks for 60, you don't pick 54. Karajan played the Brandeburg concertos slower than anyone, to express their german nature, or his big ego ? It's very different when you arrange a pop song or a jazz tune. You can make something totally different, but classical music ?
@@ofdrumsandchords Just cause Beethoven wanted it at 60 doesnt mean you can only play it at 60. Beethoven isnt the one performing and if a listener doesnt like the different tempo, they can choose to not listen to it.
@@kaelumsmith6362 Are you a musician ? Why should we also play a piece in E flat if we think it would be more joyful in E, and better for the strings. And why don't we use an alto instead of this horrible oboe ?
Tempo is part of the composition. We are not talking here about a jazz standard that you can totally change.
And we are not talking about John Doe here, we are taking about one of the greatest musicians of all times.
@@ofdrumsandchords composers aren't dictators. They're more like collaborators, trusted and influential colleagues. All parties have the same goal of performing music that is as good as possible as well as possible, and the composer (especially if they wrote 200 years ago) doesn't and shouldn't have a monopoly on what constitutes "well", and in fact as a composer (in a previous life) myself I don't consider composition to imply a monopoly on what constitutes "good" either.
As for whether it's still classical music or not, I consider that a very boring and useless question. Who cares if it fits criteria? The two things that matter are the experiential (does it make a listener pleased with having listened to it) and the practical (is it easy to get access to the right musicians to play it and the spaces to play it in) fundamentally. Sure you can choose to do your homework and read your history and see if you can get as historically accurate a performance as you can, but imho that takes priority away from where it belongs: the music and the audience. Plus, you can theoretically have the most historically accurate performance ever, and after that there's no point pursuing it any further, but it's much more difficult to reach such a dead end when you allow and encourage input from trusted collaborators with a diverse range of backgrounds
@@TAP7a Jean-Sébastien Bach would be a trusted and influential colleague of mine ? That's a good one.
You know what they say. Mozart is a man talking to God. Bach is God talking to men.
I also disagree about classical or not, because there's a main difference between classical and jazz/rock.
In classical music, composer and players are distinct. Today, you can see that in the recording of a movie score. Most often, the composer conducts his music, and the hired musicians don't debate his choices.
Jazz is very different. Improvisation is part of it (otherwise, it wouldn't be jazz), we make head arrangements during rehearsals (well, sometimes also during the concert), and repeating a piece exactly like it was first recorded would be quite ridiculous. "With a little help from my friends" by Joe Cocker is something else.
And, as a drummer who worked on timing and explored the arcanes of tempo all his life, I think this choice is determining for the final renderig of a composition or an arrangement. Some people are geniusses with tempo. Isaac Hayes (Theme from Shaft) was well-known for this particuliar talent.
But all this is just for the pleasure of discussing with a musician. It's not because I disagree with your points that I think you are wrong (in a previous life, I worked in psychiatry and met Carl Gustav Jung).
I ABSOLUTELY LOVE your videos, how you explain things makes me happy (it may sound strange but you show so much passion) and I loved the parts where you added Ashkenazi's and Bernstein's views 😍😍😍😍😍😍
⏳Wonderful as always. I've enjoyed watching you over the years. Thanks for all the hard work in making these vids. Brava!
Kind of amazed there was no mention of single beat versus double beat metronome markings in the 1800’s!!!
There is a great deal of contention and debate but it is generally well-understood that at one point in time, metronomes were read such that from right to left and back to right again was one beat- as opposed to the modern interpretation where every swing (left-to-right, right-to-left) is a beat. If you consider that a piece with a certain BPM written was intended to be DOUBLE BEAT, suddenly your modern tempo should be HALF AS FAST, and this dramatically changes how we view the original composer’s intent.
Now many people will fight over which pieces in the 1800’s are supposed to be read as single beat and which are double beat, as well as historically sometimes we don’t always know if a BPM was assigned by the composer or by the editor of a later edition, etc. etc. Also, many folks tend to be so stuck in the modern single beat interpretations of done works that hearing it twice as slow is quite jarring. But it’s definitely worth considering if there is a possibility that an original publication from the double beat era had double beat metronome markings, and try out the piece following that tempo to see what new emotions, emphasis, lines, and harmony that yields.
Now I have done no research on that Chopin mentioned, and have no idea if it’s a candidate for having been marked in double beat, but for the sake of curiosity let’s assume it was. Where we are often startled by the “accurate” tempo’s quickness, and tend to play it “slower than written”, Chopin may have intended it to be half the speed of the modern written tempo, and we may actually have a tendency to play it even a little fast!
Of course some HPP folks will break your back over double beat interpretation, but I am not one of those folks. At the end of the day, when interpreting music from that era, all of the other tips and ideas in this video about tempo apply as well, and did back when they were performed the first time, too! However I definitely think that exploring double beat can open up even more possibilities for tempo than shown in this video, so take a look into it!! ✨
Is there a "great deal of contention and debate" between actual musicologists or we're talking only youtube now? In my music education I never stumbled upon idea of double beat interpretation of the metronome, and certainly not in Chopin. I'd rather trust National Edition and their notes about the metronome (btw, some of Chopin etudes are nowadays actually played slower than composer intended, but most of them sit around Chopin's markings, you can get National Edition PDF with performance commentary for free for all of his works IIRC), rather than some opinions on the Internet. I've seen perhaps the only promotor of that double beat thing being debunked by a PDF document stating evidence that double beat was not a thing (such as exact programmes of period performances and their duration). But if we talk about Chopin, if double beat actually was a thing, then without doubt it would spawn many recordings of that 'old style' and it would be taught in music academies. If that applied to all of music at some point, then for sure it would be noted somewhere, that there was this old practice of double beat and then there was a new practice..
@@0babul0 “Then for sure it would be noted somewhere” you would think 🤷🏻♀️ But just because something isn’t widely taught, doesn’t make it not true. ESPECIALLY in the field of history and research, as how can something be taught before it’s discovered? Again, as I said, I’m not saying that the piece referenced should be double beat, I just think that embracing a wider view of the possibility of the practice allows us to make more musical choices! ✨
And this is CZcams, but I will say you responding does prove the fact that there is a great deal of contention 😉
Have you heard of Whole Beat Metronome Practice. The theory that Chopin other composers of that era counted the forward and backward swing (two ticks) of the metronome as one whole movement. Meaning 8th note = 100 would correspond to a tick for every 16th note. A lot of music sounds very strange at these slower tempos BUT a lot of odd choices regarding tempo number and note duration make a lot more sense.
For example op 10 no 4 (half note = 88) instead of getting two audible ticks per bar now gets four helping emphasize the pulse.
Op 25 no 2 has the same thing. With 4 ticks per bar it reinforces the off kilter triplet baseline.
Op 10 no 5, the last bar octave descending Gb octaves scale can be played staccato as indicated instead of glissando.
i havent dug up any relevant scores to verify, but general consensus seems to be that slower wind parts of the era would be literally unplayable at half the marked tempo. it would also result in a lot of unusually long pieces of music; the fourth movement of beethoven's ninth would be nearly an hour.
@@esthersmith3056 That's cool. It turns out that ridiculous authenticsound guy has recorded Beethoven Trio Op 38 and a clarinettist has performed including slow parts. After looking a while I found out he'll be recording the ninth symphony in a couple of months. Will be interesting to see how that turns out.
I love these videos about practice and preparation of music. :) ⌛️ Just hearing the depth of your thoughts about a given topic is inspiring. Thanks.
Great mentoring and notes which I love as a composer/performer and again Nahre gives a masterful musical performance to be inspired by!
⌛I'm not a classically trained musician, but I've read that many classical piano composers treated tempo loosely, and that playing with style and feel was more important in their day. In the modern age we've gotten so accustomed to precise musical reproduction, made even more so from digital recording, mixing, and mastering technology, that we expect all music to sound metronome perfect.
I think you are referring to what musicians call rubato. It was quite common during the romantic period.
Interesting example, at 9:10 the BWV 847 prelude is in fact one of those pieces where tempo ⌛ really changes everything for me. I had no particular appreciation for the piece before hearing Glenn Gould's version which is extremely slow, far slower than both tempi used here (czcams.com/video/hkg0aQxsKlU/video.html). The way he plays this prelude adds weight and articulation, and somehow some kind of melody emerges, and the harmony lines suddenly become clear and start telling me something. That is what I love about Gould's playing, he always seems to extract some meaning or story from everything he plays, and often the strange tempi he uses seem to find a new feeling that was hidden in the original music.
Thank you, Nahre Sol! I think all the points you make are really great.
Love your channel! I always learn something by watching your videos! ⌛️
I don't know how to leave an hourglass emoji, but I do very much enjoy your "lectures" in their entirety. I know as I became a more mature performer (and teacher) I developed stronger emotional opinions about "proper" tempi, in many different genres of music. In some cases, I find I disagree with the "masters" in their choices.
Am I correct in assuming that metronome markings might sometimes be the invention of an editor, rather than the composer?
With regard to the Chopin etude op 10 no 3, perhaps a lighter sounding instrument, with less-full lower resonances, might give a feel more like the higher register you played as an example? (Which I guess Vladimir Ashkenazy alluded to in passing, talking about different instruments, and you were also dancing around.)
Pianos in Chopin's time, especially his favored Pleyels, had a lighter action, a lighter sound, and narrower keys than our modern grands. And Chopin himself insisted on light, supple touch. How much this influenced his chouce of tempo however is hard to tell as there was no way to do recordings at that time......
@@andresgunther Yes, exactly what I was thinking!
You are a brilliant person and an example to follow as a musician, it is fascinating the openness you have towards all aspects of music and a wonderful talent as a pianist and composer. Best regards from Argentina, Buenos Aires.
Nahre, I really like your presentations. They are very insightful.
BTW, Gould's tempo in that concerto wasn't particularly unusual, as has been shown by surveying the range of tempi of many recordings.
Bernstein's "disclaimer" comes off poorly an even a bit insulting.
@@embodiedconducting yes, It was widely considered at the time to be a jerk move. Gould, ever the gentleman, had no hard feelings.
I mean, Glenn Gould was always quick to make jokes at his own expense as well as others so I imagine he didn't mind so much.
i love gould so much.. he plays bach extremely unusually but radically changes your perception of the music, making it seem like it was the canon method all along, or like he had found something within the sheets that no performer since bach's death had ever found. but then he plays beethoven extremely scientifically and tries to convey EXACTLY what the sheet music contains.
Very good Nahre! Your comments were like the good ones I had when I was still in school. You said it all! Very good!
Some really helpful and really well explained concepts in here, I never thought about it this way but it just makes sense
I really don’t like essentialism in music. There is no way a piece “should” sound. If it was then just play a recording of a piano roll. The whole beauty of music is that it is evanescence.
This idea of the “genius” composer who just had the “perfect” image of the music and us mere mortals should not dare to change even one articulation or phrase is really toxic.
What interesting is in fact most pianists nowadays playing significantly much faster compare to past pianists in previous century in general..however, with the current piano’s development direction toward richer and more sustaining tone base, the music nowadays logically should be played in slower pace as less gap between notes..
Useful, helpful, delightfully presented. I appreciate the knowledge you share. Thank you Nahre.
😎🎵☮
⌛️ I love all Nahre’s videos omg
I’m surprised you didn’t mention Gould’s Goldberg variations releases. His second recording of them is much slower than the first. He has said that upon listening to the first release many years later he didn’t understand why he was in such a hurry. I think his second recording is much better than the first, the overall slower tempo allows Bach to come through more IMO. ⏳
Nahre, have you ever considered that Chopins tempi markings as many other composers from that era are very fast? It's because they followed the whole beat speed, so Chopins tempi markings are all half speed compared to our modern single beat speed. This means that Chopins tempo marking should interpreted as 50 bpm in the etude, not 100 bpm. 2:39.
Also, take into account that Chopin has many other pieces that are simply unplayable due to his crazy tempi markings. If you follow the whole beat speed, suddenly it all makes sense. I think you should explore the whole beat theory. After all. why would Chopin leave so many unplayable tempi markings if they were simply unplayable? Clearly, he intended for us all to play according to his tempi markings.
I advice you ta have a look at the channel Authentic Sound if you would like to further explore this:
czcams.com/video/ggCIUOHnVzs/video.html
Sadly this theory has been disproved by many people on many occasions, from old documents, writings, concert tickets that mention the length of the piece.
I really like Wim Winters interpretations of these pieces even tho I don't think it's the Tempo that they played in back then and I can totally see why one would believe the whole beat theory. It really would just make so much sense. I can't deny that there is something wrong with a lot of metronome marks from back then, especially the ones Czerny left us for his and Beethovens pieces - some of them are unplayable or really close to it. But I don't think whole beat is the answer here.
@@winter2400 I get you and I also have my doubts about dogmatic double/whole beat interpretation. Nevertheless, Chopin wrote eight note equals 100 bpm for performers to play in that tempo, right? There’s no question about that. Now which speed makes more sense, you really think he intended us to play that fast? Clearly, the slower tempo makes more sense. And how do we otherwise explain all the unplayable pieces by Chopin? Let’s say whole beat is wrong, single beat is still not able to play these ridiculous speeds, then clearly single beat is also wrong
@@kristiankumpumaki8701 Thats exactly what I meant. The slower tempo makes more sense to me too and apparently it does for most people - but maybe it didn't for Chopin? I'm not entirely convinced what way to play/read these metronome marks is right either.
It would be easier to explain if it were just a few pieces that were unplayable, you could maybe brush it off as a mistake by the publisher or something like that but it aren't just a few pieces. It are a bunch. Whole beat, like you said, makes much more sense it that manner - in terms of playing and for a lot of people even musically.
The only reason I could explain these impossible tempi is that people like Czerny put them on their etudes on purpose and knew that they were impossible to be played so no one could ever achieve the goal and would always keep practicing these pieces, always getting faster, more accurate - but never quite close. But that's really far fetched and would only explain the etudes.
I think we will never truly know and should just enjoy the music. When I play these pieces I sometimes try to play them in tempi close to the fast ones, sometimes I play them in whole beat, sometimes something between. That may not be authentic but well, who knows what's authentic?
I always enjoy your explanations and your comments, thanks for sharing all these insights 😌⏳⌛
I love all of your discussions so much! ⌛️
One of the odd things about tempo is that different people playing the same piece at exactly the same number of beats per minute on the metronome can convey different senses of how fast the music is moving. Tempo is a good deal more than just the kind of objective speed a metronome provides.
rather than "there is a right tempo", it should be "we can create music with different tempos". art is never complete anyways
There's something very soothing about you. I love your channel.
Wonderful video. Great examples and you illustrate the point so well.
Great video! ⏳ I loved your insight into Gould's, Cziffra's and Ashkenazy's tempo choices.
Incredible video with lots of interesting and useful remarks! Thank you! 😊
Thx 🙏 for ur video! I am composing more and been playing my new piece at a slow tempo and now playing it with ur advice! 🎹 ☺️
Your videos have been teaching me so much about music and I just want to say thank you! ⌛️
Fantastic topic and video, and very important points covered. A person’s health and blood pressure will affect how they perceive tempo and speed too… as well as you’ve pointed out the time of the day and how tired the person is. Try listening to music at 4 am and then listen to the same music when you’re not tired at 2 pm and you’ll perceive the music at a different pace… 🎵🎶🎵🎶
Omg dude I learn so much from you - I never considered what reverb on a piano would sacrifice-yes, of course, clarity bounce and humor :) :)🙏🙏
⏳, I really enjoy your content. Always becomes refreshing talk about music.
⌛️ - Brilliant video Nahre, all very useful tips. I especially like the point about faster tempi becoming more natural as you learn a piece, definitely something to be conscious about.
Quite insightful especially when applied to composition. This video was very ⌛️-ely! Can't agree more on the recording and self evaluating bit, it has helped rectify many unusual practices that I would have otherwise missed. Thank you for expounding your thoughts so eloquently on the matter :)
Thank you!!!!
Great video!! I'm not a pianist but this is incredibly informative and all of this applies to basically all music and every instrument. Thanks so much for this talk!!
Very important topic, thank you so much for making this video ⏳🙏🧡
⌛️ I'm so glad I found your channel! Thank you!
Another great video! Thanks Nahre ❤⌛
Excellent! Especially with your example of op 10 no.3 . I think we all know or try this piece and you really nail the topic!
Thank you!!! 🙏🏻
this is what i am looking!!! like, i was in a total block for doing/creating something. i would like to quote ur word "give ur ear break." thank you for sharing this! ⏳
Very understandable!! Thank you for your video!! Valuable information for me!
Very sensible points, especially about recording yourself and listening, so you experience your tempi as the listener experiences them.⌛️
Super video again ⌛! Thanks, Nahre!
Great insight, very helpful!
This helped quite a bit and I am now more likely to explore more tempi options. Something else I (and i'm sure you and other musicians) use is what the music is based off of. For example a Waltz, watching how people dance in Waltz is quite helpful in deciding tempi.
A perfect video, visually entertaining and the topic is presented with competence. In my opinion classical performers and conductors tend nowadays more to play too fast than to play too slow.
Once again! Well done!
Much distilled wisdom--I'll be sending my flute club members here to watch this! Dunno how to add the emoji, but .
⏳ amazing content! So useful and enjoyable.
houglass Very useful tips. You focus most, however, on speeding up the tempo (unless worried about a loss of accuracy or clarity), but less on intentionally slowing down for aesthetic reasons, i.e., taking a piece that is customarily played rapidly and intentionally slowing the tempo to bring out a unique aspect of the piece or evoke a different emotion (although to be fair, you did bring this up in your very first example.) I find that with an increasing trend to display virtuoso technique in performance, it is a rare pleasure to hear an accomplished pianist innovate by slowing down the tempo and focusing on expressiveness or an unique and personal interpretation.
I was waiting for this
Thank you!
Fascinating subject and such a well organized exploration of it.
Aw! I love your videos and the way you explain things