I always enjoy David's videos, even when I disagree with his findings, but I join in his praise for the Kletzki version. He is right to describe the work as "a little fireball": I have never understood why some critics and music-lovers are so dismissive of what for me has never been the "Little Eighth" but always the "Great Eighth". I first heard it live in a concert George Szell gave with the NPO in London in November 1968, when he paired it with the Ninth (both BBC recordings were released on CD much, much later and may still be available). One of the thngs that Szell did was to double the trumpets so that in addition to the precision and energy you got the majesty of those instruments. Naturally, after the concert I rushed out to buy Szell's Cleveland recording, thinking it would be as good as the NPO performance. It wasn't, and in the years following I hunted down as many recorded versions of the Eighth as I could, hoping to find the one performance that came as close to the Szell as possible. Eventually I found one, and I mention it here because it apparently wasn't on David's radar: Pablo Casals with the Marlboro Festival Orchestra. If you want a knockout performance, and this one exudes adrenaline from every pore, this is it. It is very fast indeed but what makes it special for me is the utter sense of joy in the music. It remains for me a knockout performance.
Glad you mentioned Casals' recording. I wonder why his recordings are rarely mentioned overall. His 8th was always my favourite. So is his Mendelssohn nr 4.
I actually managed to get that BBC Legends release during the 30 seconds or so when it was available. So envious that you were in the hall hearing it live. It is a stunning performance. That said, I'm not as down on the Cleveland studio recording as you are. Still among the more impressive 8ths out there.
That's also my favorite Luddi 8th : Szell & BBC. It has all the acid wit, thrust AND sheer joy which the Cleveland version lacks. I love Szell's Cleveland cycle - except for the 8th : it sounds like they were playing after a heavy midday meal (or something).
This was the first Beethoven symphony I played in as a 15 year old in the local youth orchestra over 50 years ago and I've loved it ever since. It is still my favourite Beethoven symphony. Thanks for your choices Dave, the bars leading up to the climax in the first movement (which you played) have always thrilled me and is my favourite part of the work. I like the Blomstedt very much mainly because it's the Dresden Staatskapelle, I love that orchestra.
I got the Jârvi recording 9 years ago and I absolutely adore it, it’s phenomenal and the Eroica it’s paired with is also a stunning recording. They’re gutsy, balls to the walls, and it’s absolutely glorious, if you want period style, this is the one to get it’s absolutely phenomenal. It’s a chamber orchestra who plays big.
I shocked the life out of a notable conductor I know when I said the 8th was the compact essence of the Beethoven Symphonies. I love them all but 8 does it for me. First heard it on Ormandy’s recording, still my imprint performance.
I tried Ormandy's 1963 performance with the Vienna Philharmonics on youtube first. Due to the live recording in a sub-optimal room (too narrow) the sound was a bit restrained from developing. Then I tried the version with the Philadelphia Orchestra. And what a volumen, what a lush and colorful lively sound! I also like Furtwrängler's interpretation from 1963 with the BPO, also voluminous and colorful, more dramatic and gripping, perhaps too dramatic. But definitely not boring and dry.
Blomsedt/Dresden; yes, a fabulous, stunning and purely dazzling 8th! Why this symphony ever gained the nickname 'Little' is beyond all comprehension! In fact that whole Blomstedt/Dresden set is "smokin' hot" in my humble opinion. Another wonderful presentation, David. Many thanks.
I really love this 8th symphony of Beethoven. I mean, I love almost all his works but this symphony might be the one I love the most because it inspires me with optimism.
Thanks for your continuing excellence and entertainment... and spot-on truths about certain HIP failings... I just finished listening to the Casals/Malboro 'live' 8th from July 14, 1963...utterly spectacular!
I love Scherchen. I have a Beethoven 3rd somewhere where, for a single day, he turns the Swiss Radio Symphony Orchestra or something like that into the Berlin Philharmonic. He yells, he grunts, I think you can here some strings breaking and old teutonic gentlemen fainting dead away while Scherchen drives the band to within an inch of it's destruction. It is wild, great fun and somewhere old Ludwig cracks a smile and thinks; "This! This is how I conducted my Symphony!" Mono or not it will leave junk where your speakers used to be
Dave gets in a casual conversation with someone in public and suddenly the topic turns to "the Ninth." "Pardon me," he says, as he runs off like Clark Kent and comes back like Superman with a pressed shirt and tie. "Ok, now we can talk."
What I really appreciate about this review format is that, although you give us a top recommendation, you also give us a lot of information about several other recommendable recordings. The risk is always high that the top pick will turn out to be unavailable or unaffordable by the time I go shopping for it, but that doesn't matter. You've also told us enough about the others that I can feel confident in buying one of them. In other words, your repertoire surveys are not going to go obsolete in a week, the way most articles about "The Best Eroica On Disk" usually do. It would much easier to recommend one recording and leave it at that, but I hope you'll resist the temptation!
My personal favo(u)rite is Markevitch/DG. The Lamoreux is playing like demons - in the fifth as well! - just astonishing. I pet the CD regularly (sorry Igor). --Btw, that final mvt. is simply glorious. So much fun, it really is a blast.
Yess!!! The Markevitch 8 and 5 were my very first performances, on one vinyl disc, your description is right, I totally agree! Very good orchestral balance, and both climaxes of the first movement are extremely powerful..
Scherchen's has long been my favorite eighth. You mention that it is his best Beethoven recording. There is one other I'd put in that same class, and that is his King Stephen Overture. I can't sit still while listening to that. It's so thrilling; just like his eighth.
In my opinion because of the first movement this symphony is one of the great Beethoven symphonies. Totally underrated. The Toscanini version was always one of my favourites. The first recent recording that came near to it was Järvi. Wand is always good. I have so many cycles, but no Scherchen, Blomstedt and Kletzki. As so often this will be an expensive video for me. And still no overflow room. My Riisager albums arrived yesterday. Greetings from Northern Germany!
Dave thanks so much for this recommendation. To my shame, I’d never heard any of Kletzki’s Beethoven. I’m having a wonderful time listening to the entire cycle - so far , stupendous!!
David - Great video! I'm in complete agreement on the Scherchen - I still listen to that recording with amazement, and it provides the perfect linchpin to the entire cycle.
The Eighth Symphony is terrific and I enjoy the Concertgebouw sound with Haitink in the Beethoven. I really enjoy this video just to see "The Ninth! " 😂👍
Thanks for another wonderful set of recommendations, presented with your customary knowledge, insight, enthusiasm, and loving irreverence. I'm curious to know your thoughts about Ormandy's recording of the 8th. To my ears, everything sounds just right in terms of the richness and clarity of orchestral textures (Ormandy's "Philadelphia Sound"), the energetic but not frantic tempos, and the warm recorded sound. What I'm not as sure about is the transparency of layers that you referred to: I'm not sure if I can hear all of different voices that you identified in your examples. Regarding your recommendations, I especially loved the Kletzki performance. It also inspired me to read his rather remarkable bio on the Naxos website. Thanks again and all the best!
Filed under "you asked for it, so you got it," well, I asked for it, and I got it. Thanks so much for this, Dave, getting into the individual Beethoven symphonies. Another excellent video! Your point about them being difficult to do because they are all so different is well taken. I was just thinking the other day how astonishing it is that two such seminal works in the symphonic repertoire as Beethoven's 5th and 6th symphonies were: a) composed by the same composer; b) composed around the same time in his life; and c) even premiered in the same damned concert! Really looking forward to 1 through 7, now!
Very educational! As soon as I watched this, I listened back-to-back to two lesser-known recordings of the 8th that I own, those of Cluytens/Berlin and Markevitch/Lamoreaux - and now that I know what to listen for, I know the Markevitch is the far-superior performance! Bassy stuff all the way! Cool!
Hello! I have been listening to all your recommendations and after all, I prefer the Gunter Wand performance with NDR Sinfonieorchester. Yes, all your recommendations are very, very good and I like them all, but as I say I prefer the Gunter Wand performance. Thank you again for the wonderful work you do for us, the music lovers!
I'm listening to my Columbia Great Performances CD performance of the 8th with Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. Thanks for pointing out about the basses at the beginning of the recapitulation. One can really hear them well in this recording, which I might add, I really like, as with what else I've heard of Szell's old Beethoven set on I guess, first Epic, then reissued on Columbia. And, if you'll indulge me, off topic, I have a lot of old pre-recorded cassettes and recently had a Strauss urge and loaded my recording of Ein Heldenleben, with Reiner and the Chicago, on an old RCA Victor 60+ cassette (which still sounds great, by the way), with liner notes by, of all people, Dave Hurwitz. Pleasant surprise it was.
Thanks for hipping us to the Kletzki! There's something about vintage Czech performances with their sharp, short articulation contrasted with the sweetest melodic phrasing around. I remember the intermission of an old "Live from Lincoln Center" with host Joan Mondale, at that time the "second lady," interviewing the conductor (can't recall which), who commented on how orchestras worldwide were increasingly sounding alike. "Isn't that wonderful?" she replied. NOOOO! Thank God for these vintage recordings that preserve unique musical traditions, like Bartók preserved folk songs on his primitive recordings before they disappeared.
Yes. Indeed. I have been sampling this cycle on amazon music ever since Dave mentioned it in his Beethoven complete symphony cycle video. I just sampled the opening movement of 8 and it sounds glorious. My favs are szell and Bernstein but gonna give this a true listen tomorrow. By the way. For all you out there who are ok with digital downloads, the whole cycle is available for $10 on presto classical. I just ordered and downloaded.
As a bassist, I can say that Beethoven is one of the funnest composers to play. I grew up on the Toscanini set (two copies of it in fact!), and I would say that set (and the memory of the odd symphony scherzos) was probably the biggest influence that made me really love classical music, particularly the more muscular and athletic aspects of it. The Blomstedt/Dresden 8th is also a favorite (as is their Dvorak 8!)
Ever since you recommended the Kletzki cycle with the Czech Phil, I’ve fallen completely in love with it, particularly Symphonies 1, 4, and 8. Frankly, I’d completely lost interest in the Beethoven symphonies great as they are, because they are so over-recorded and over-performed. Kletzki takes the big prize here for me. I file it into the rare “could listen to it every day” department in my cerebellum.
I think for me. Beethoven is like the Beatles or Pink Floyd or u2 or Bruce or the stones. The greats. You love them but you have to take a break and then come back to them again. I find this particularly true of Floyd. I won’t listen to them for a year but then I will get into a Floyd thingy and listen to them walking the dog, doing housework whatever. Beethoven is like that for me. His symphonies. His concertos. His chamber stuff. His piano stuff. Gosh. Even his choral stuff. The man was a genius and quite frankly is the reason I love classical music. So. Here we have a Beethoven thingy that I think sounds really great. Dave. Hopefully you will go 8 through 1 in a short period so I can do my Beethoven thing. Maybe some concertos to follow? Maybe some chamber? Your guidance is what we look for.
the 8th blew my mind the first time I heard it especially that first movement development section which Dave mentions is the greatest single climax and I agree wholeheartedly! My go to recording is Toscanini with NBC from 1939.
Fabulous choices, Mr. H! I am also quite fond of Papa Monteux with the Vienna Philharmonic; have you heard it? P.S. I fell in love with this work when I first heard Toscanini's fiery hot performance emerge from my hi fi speakers many moons ago.
Scherchen absolutely rules in the symphony for me, especially in the first movement, where, at the climax of the development played here by Dave, Beethoven calls for the incredibly rare (for him) command of "fff."
What about Felix Weingartner, For oldies? And Gardiner for modern? And I can't wait for Jordi Savall!! BTW, in the 8th, Karajan is marvelous. Kletzki, is now on my want list? And I like all the Beethoven symphonies, each of them has her qualities and interests, they are all enjoyable. And I remember an 8th conducted by Nézet SEguin with the orchestre Métropolitain that thrilled me so much. I get out of the concerthall on cloud nine
I have the Kletski integral set of the symphonies which are great, but is there any love here for the Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt Vienna PhilHarmonic recordings on Decca?
The 8th has always been my favourite beethoven symphony and have many recordings . However the drive of the klemperer has always been the top of the pile for me.
Oh Klemperer! Dave. Can we please do a talk on Klemps? His whole world. Orchestral. Choral. Feel like he hasn’t gotten enough representation on your videos. Yet I love his Beethoven. His Brahms. Wagner. Strauss. Can we please start a conductor series?
Scherchen's Beethoven is pretty special to me, but that 8th in particular has been owned by him since the day I heard it. It's just so much fun. I haven't actually given Kletzki an in-depth listen yet and will do so soon!
I imprinted on the Jochum/COA 8th. I also like Bruno Walter's (Columbia) . Both conductors are tuned into LvB's humor. The rondo finale of the 8th transforms from funny to cosmic funny. Something similar happens in the rondo of the violin concerto. That movement begins with one of Ludwig's best comic ideas but somehow becomes profoundly humorous.
Love the 8th. When I first started really collecting, comparing and listening to different recordings of Beethoven around 20 years ago one of the very first things that stood out to me was the basslines in the 8th and whether I could hear them clearly. Nice to hear someone else actually point that out. And I agree that Kletzki's cycle is a gem!
The Blomstedt you play doesn't have the ferocious intensity of Toscanini, but you can really hear the theme in the basses in the recap! I'm always told that moment is very difficult to balance.
re: the Wand Beethoven box. I wish someone at Sony was watching these reviews. Since it was first issued in a convenient cardboard box in 2018, Sony has reissued it in one of those annoying 5 CD plastic boxes with the fragile hinges. Not only that but the CDs are burned to order CD-Rs with glued-on paper labels. See the top 3 reviews on Amazon. Probably the best Beethoven set in the Sony catalog (and that's saying a lot), and Sony is treating it like crap.
I listened to the Beethoven symphonies only once about two years ago before your Ideal symphony cycle video, and since then, the 8th became my favorite. Maybe it's the humorous nature that appeals to my tastes, but I couldn't say what the jokes are. It just registers to me as exciting.
Thinking of David's comments on the importance of hearing the base line, a performance that may surprise but does very well is Giulini and the La Scala Philharmonic (sony). It's not slow - perhaps a little slower than the norm in the first movement (just over 10 minutes) - and he really gets the basses to dig in in that development section leading to the recapitulation in the first movement, and the climax blazes as it should. Much, much better than his earlier recording with the LSO (EMI). Bernstein and NYPO is also very impressive in this regard.
My first recording of this masterpiece was Szell’s stereo recording. No one I’ve heard as captured the humor of the third movement minuet as well-purposely heavy footed and hilarious. My modern go-to versions are Zinman and Vanska. Both capture the spirit of the work so well and are wonderfully played by their respective orchestras. I’ll have to give P. Jarvi a listen based on your discussion.
You're right on the money again regarding the importance of hearing those basses when they eventually get to play the melody in the first movement. I'm practically neurotic about this. It's what I always listen for when I hear a performance of the 8th for the first time. But it drives me crazy that nine times out of ten the basses are inaudible.
Kletzki, yes!!! What do you think of Casals/Marlboro? It’s got crags and gruffness in spades, and great energy in the low strings. Is the humor missing? Perhaps, but while it’s spinning, the conviction is infectious.
I totally agree about the Kletzki, and the Eighth is my favorite Beethoven symphony with the Second being a close second. By the way, my favorite retransition in all of Beethoven’s output, as amazing as this one is, has to be that in his Fourth Piano Concerto: The dramatic rhythmic diminutions followed by the horns’ ejaculation at the cadence has an intensity unmatched by any other except perhaps by the retransition in Mahler’s Second Symphony.
Actually the 8th is my favorite as Beethoven gets to the point without feeling he just HAD TO MAKE A POINT THAT HE WAS THE GREAT COMPOSER. He is relaxed but extremely brilliant and the symphonic writing is so ingenious, well-balanced and damn amazing. Beethoven showed this side early in his 2nd Symphony but not with the same economy or freedom as he did in the 8th.
I just watched the CZcams video of the First Movement, featuring THE KNIGHTS CHAMBER ORCHESTRA conducted by Eric Jacobsen. WOW! I hope they get around to recording the whole symphony.
I really enjoy the idea that the oldest performance can grasp things most right, and that noone until this day has been able to rise above it. In this case I'm talking about Toscanini's eighth, outstanding performance. Maybe only Blomstedt or Szell reach the same level..
Request(s): would be very interested in hearing your take on the best/worst Beethoven Piano Sonata box sets and the Hyperion Liszt/ Leslie Howard edition...
In Beecham's recording of Beethoven's 8th with the Royal Philharmonic, the middle movements always sound unique and very special to me , probably due to Beecham's expertness in Haydn.
I don't comment outside of the vids, except to agree or disagree with one of you. Listen and give us your own opinion, and if I have anything add I will.
What always amazes me with Beethoven's symphonies is that my favourite individual recordings and cycles are almost exclusively not those by the most famous conductors working with prestigious German/Austrian orchestras. Give me Gielen, Tennstedt, Blunier and Mackerras (well, on Hyperion) over Karajan, Kleiber, Furtwangler, Bohm or Wand.
Do you think it also have something to do with the concert hall or the playing style that the bass in Beethoven 8th tends to be inaudible with HIPs? Because I went to a Beethoven 8th concert in mid-2020 at a small opera house built in traditional style, the stage is really small so they could only fit an orchestra with 5 bass players, but I can tell you that the sound of the bass is very loud and clear.
Every time Uncle Dave does a Beethoven video I know it's going to cost me bucks, not this time coz I've got the Wand and Jarvi sets, Huzzah ! . . . oh no, I've gotta have Kletzki now. Ebay is calling and my bank balance is frowning.
@@alanmcginn4796 I use World of Books on Ebay (here in the UK) coz they funnel funds back into charities. I'll definitely check out Presto though if I can't find what I want. I've just listened to the Toscanini 8th on CZcams and it's a game changer, as though I'm listening for the first time. I'll need new CD storage soon !
@@clemteetonball1250 yes. I have used world of books for several purchases. They have great service also. I recently purchased sawallisch Schubert EMI choral music set from them. Gonna give the Toscanini 8 a listen to today. I do struggle with bad sound though.
Dave I totally agree that it is critical to bring home that first movement climax at letter D, and for me the one who does this best is the 1962 Karajan. The rest of the performance, apart from a slightly heavy 3rd movement, is also at the highest level. One thing he does NOT do is to slow down in the last two bars of the first movement. To do so completely ruins the effect, and any recording in which this is done is ruled out for me. No arguments with your selections, though the Kletzki sounds as though he underplays the many sf markings which Beethoven went to the trouble of writing in to the development section. I do agree with you about HIP orchestras tending to be light on basses, but what you didn't mention is that the basses double the cellos (sounding an octave lower of course) through almost the whole score, so you can blame a weak bass/base sound on them as well. Finally, thanks for referring to the "Schlamperei Vienna Orchestra". I know exactly what you mean, and it gave me a good laugh.😆
If anyone owns the Günter Wand Beethoven symphony cycle - are there any lacking recordings in the whole set? I've not heard it all but so far I am just in love with every single one! Wand may slowly be becoming my favourite Beethoven conductor!
Any love out there for Steinberg's Pittsburgh 8th? I think it's an impressive, muscular performance. That development section into the recapitulation in the first movement, in his hands is a terrifically tense, titanic struggle. The last movement also very exciting. Wonderful stuff IMO.
I appreciate period instrument performances and believe we need them, but never consider them the "end all" version. What these people never seem to remember is that Beethoven (and many other composers) really were writing music far beyond the orchestral sounds of their time, and would have jumped at the chance to have a modern orchestra. Beethoven 8 is a symphony that I always pass on, but when I do listen to it I kick myself for not listening to it more often...thanks for waking me up👍 You can never go wrong with the Czechs 😁
"What these people never seem to remember is that Beethoven (and many other composers) really were writing music far beyond the orchestral sounds of their time" -- they don't remember it because it's not true.
The trio of the 3rd movement is one of my favorite moments in all of Beethoven...especially when the strings shift from major to minor with the horn filigree in the background. Stunningly beautiful. This symphony is a complete masterpiece. I agree that everyone should get the Kletzki Czech cycle. I also like Hans Rosbaud in the Rosbaud Beethoven box.
Kletzki is without a doubt is a super performance unfortunately is let down by sound dynamics. Maybe I'm a bit finicky. The sound to my ears is too thin and bright. My favourite version is Jochum/Concertgebouworkest . Philips highest quality sound and the performance is top notch. Jochum style fits this music, just like his excellent Haydn recordings.
I don't know if "finicky" is the word. The sonics are warm and full--"thin" is the last word I would use to describe them, and they are certainly not over-bright. I'm not sure what you are hearing.
Based on more than 50 years of observation, the 8th is not Beethoven's least popular symphonies. I believe that honor goes to the 2nd due to its difficulty in playing it. Just my opinion FWIW.
I always enjoy David's videos, even when I disagree with his findings, but I join in his praise for the Kletzki version. He is right to describe the work as "a little fireball": I have never understood why some critics and music-lovers are so dismissive of what for me has never been the "Little Eighth" but always the "Great Eighth". I first heard it live in a concert George Szell gave with the NPO in London in November 1968, when he paired it with the Ninth (both BBC recordings were released on CD much, much later and may still be available). One of the thngs that Szell did was to double the trumpets so that in addition to the precision and energy you got the majesty of those instruments. Naturally, after the concert I rushed out to buy Szell's Cleveland recording, thinking it would be as good as the NPO performance. It wasn't, and in the years following I hunted down as many recorded versions of the Eighth as I could, hoping to find the one performance that came as close to the Szell as possible. Eventually I found one, and I mention it here because it apparently wasn't on David's radar: Pablo Casals with the Marlboro Festival Orchestra. If you want a knockout performance, and this one exudes adrenaline from every pore, this is it. It is very fast indeed but what makes it special for me is the utter sense of joy in the music. It remains for me a knockout performance.
I agree. It is stunning.
Glad you mentioned Casals' recording. I wonder why his recordings are rarely mentioned overall. His 8th was always my favourite. So is his Mendelssohn nr 4.
I actually managed to get that BBC Legends release during the 30 seconds or so when it was available. So envious that you were in the hall hearing it live. It is a stunning performance. That said, I'm not as down on the Cleveland studio recording as you are. Still among the more impressive 8ths out there.
Casals recordings of symphonic works from Prades are phenomenal.
That's also my favorite Luddi 8th : Szell & BBC. It has all the acid wit, thrust AND sheer joy which the Cleveland version lacks. I love Szell's Cleveland cycle - except for the 8th : it sounds like they were playing after a heavy midday meal (or something).
This was the first Beethoven symphony I played in as a 15 year old in the local youth orchestra over 50 years ago and I've loved it ever since. It is still my favourite Beethoven symphony. Thanks for your choices Dave, the bars leading up to the climax in the first movement (which you played) have always thrilled me and is my favourite part of the work. I like the Blomstedt very much mainly because it's the Dresden Staatskapelle, I love that orchestra.
I got the Jârvi recording 9 years ago and I absolutely adore it, it’s phenomenal and the Eroica it’s paired with is also a stunning recording. They’re gutsy, balls to the walls, and it’s absolutely glorious, if you want period style, this is the one to get it’s absolutely phenomenal. It’s a chamber orchestra who plays big.
I shocked the life out of a notable conductor I know when I said the 8th was the compact essence of the Beethoven Symphonies. I love them all but 8 does it for me. First heard it on Ormandy’s recording, still my imprint performance.
Amen to that! The 8th is still my favorite
I tried Ormandy's 1963 performance with the Vienna Philharmonics on youtube first. Due to the live recording in a sub-optimal room (too narrow) the sound was a bit restrained from developing.
Then I tried the version with the Philadelphia Orchestra. And what a volumen, what a lush and colorful lively sound! I also like Furtwrängler's interpretation from 1963 with the BPO, also voluminous and colorful, more dramatic and gripping, perhaps too dramatic. But definitely not boring and dry.
Came for the "hello friends"...
Stayed for... "The Ninth"
Taking the piss out of Furty was like the cherry on top.
Great video!
Blomsedt/Dresden; yes, a fabulous, stunning and purely dazzling 8th! Why this symphony ever gained the nickname 'Little' is beyond all comprehension! In fact that whole Blomstedt/Dresden set is "smokin' hot" in my humble opinion.
Another wonderful presentation, David. Many thanks.
I really love this 8th symphony of Beethoven. I mean, I love almost all his works but this symphony might be the one I love the most because it inspires me with optimism.
Thanks for your continuing excellence and entertainment... and spot-on truths about certain HIP failings... I just finished listening to the Casals/Malboro 'live' 8th from July 14, 1963...utterly spectacular!
Fantastic video. Thank you so much Dave for introducing me to the incredible version of Kletzki that I didn't know at all!
I love Scherchen. I have a Beethoven 3rd somewhere where, for a single day, he turns the Swiss Radio Symphony Orchestra or something like that into the Berlin Philharmonic. He yells, he grunts, I think you can here some strings breaking and old teutonic gentlemen fainting dead away while Scherchen drives the band to within an inch of it's destruction. It is wild, great fun and somewhere old Ludwig cracks a smile and thinks; "This! This is how I conducted my Symphony!" Mono or not it will leave junk where your speakers used to be
Dave gets in a casual conversation with someone in public and suddenly the topic turns to "the Ninth." "Pardon me," he says, as he runs off like Clark Kent and comes back like Superman with a pressed shirt and tie. "Ok, now we can talk."
Can't give it more likes, it is now at the nine.
What I really appreciate about this review format is that, although you give us a top recommendation, you also give us a lot of information about several other recommendable recordings. The risk is always high that the top pick will turn out to be unavailable or unaffordable by the time I go shopping for it, but that doesn't matter. You've also told us enough about the others that I can feel confident in buying one of them. In other words, your repertoire surveys are not going to go obsolete in a week, the way most articles about "The Best Eroica On Disk" usually do. It would much easier to recommend one recording and leave it at that, but I hope you'll resist the temptation!
Thank you. That's the plan.
My personal favo(u)rite is Markevitch/DG.
The Lamoreux is playing like demons - in the fifth as well! - just astonishing. I pet the CD regularly (sorry Igor).
--Btw, that final mvt. is simply glorious. So much fun, it really is a blast.
Yess!!! The Markevitch 8 and 5 were my very first performances, on one vinyl disc, your description is right, I totally agree! Very good orchestral balance, and both climaxes of the first movement are extremely powerful..
It only took me 25 years to really get it.
@@scagooch I was 3 then
Excellent discussion. I will listen to Kletzki in the next few days. Of the versions I've heard Haitink/LSO and Wand/NDR are my favorites.
I love the Karl Bohm version, for the choice of tempos and the sound of Vienna Philarmoniker
Scherchen/RPO for me, for exactly the reasons why it got mentioned. Once heard, it can not be forgotten.
Scherchen's has long been my favorite eighth. You mention that it is his best Beethoven recording. There is one other I'd put in that same class, and that is his King Stephen Overture. I can't sit still while listening to that. It's so thrilling; just like his eighth.
In my opinion because of the first movement this symphony is one of the great Beethoven symphonies. Totally underrated. The Toscanini version was always one of my favourites. The first recent recording that came near to it was Järvi. Wand is always good. I have so many cycles, but no Scherchen, Blomstedt and Kletzki. As so often this will be an expensive video for me. And still no overflow room. My Riisager albums arrived yesterday. Greetings from Northern Germany!
Dave thanks so much for this recommendation. To my shame, I’d never heard any of Kletzki’s Beethoven. I’m having a wonderful time listening to the entire cycle - so far , stupendous!!
David - Great video! I'm in complete agreement on the Scherchen - I still listen to that recording with amazement, and it provides the perfect linchpin to the entire cycle.
The Eighth Symphony is terrific and I enjoy the Concertgebouw sound with Haitink in the Beethoven. I really enjoy this video just to see "The Ninth! " 😂👍
Thanks for another wonderful set of recommendations, presented with your customary knowledge, insight, enthusiasm, and loving irreverence. I'm curious to know your thoughts about Ormandy's recording of the 8th. To my ears, everything sounds just right in terms of the richness and clarity of orchestral textures (Ormandy's "Philadelphia Sound"), the energetic but not frantic tempos, and the warm recorded sound. What I'm not as sure about is the transparency of layers that you referred to: I'm not sure if I can hear all of different voices that you identified in your examples. Regarding your recommendations, I especially loved the Kletzki performance. It also inspired me to read his rather remarkable bio on the Naxos website. Thanks again and all the best!
Filed under "you asked for it, so you got it," well, I asked for it, and I got it. Thanks so much for this, Dave, getting into the individual Beethoven symphonies. Another excellent video!
Your point about them being difficult to do because they are all so different is well taken. I was just thinking the other day how astonishing it is that two such seminal works in the symphonic repertoire as Beethoven's 5th and 6th symphonies were: a) composed by the same composer; b) composed around the same time in his life; and c) even premiered in the same damned concert!
Really looking forward to 1 through 7, now!
Very educational! As soon as I watched this, I listened back-to-back to two lesser-known recordings of the 8th that I own, those of Cluytens/Berlin and Markevitch/Lamoreaux - and now that I know what to listen for, I know the Markevitch is the far-superior performance! Bassy stuff all the way! Cool!
Hello! I have been listening to all your recommendations and after all, I prefer the Gunter Wand performance with NDR Sinfonieorchester. Yes, all your recommendations are very, very good and I like them all, but as I say I prefer the Gunter Wand performance. Thank you again for the wonderful work you do for us, the music lovers!
Your recommendation of the Kletzki Symphony Box Set has to be one of your best recommendations to date. Thanks for that!
Remember. Presto classical. The complete cycle for 10 bucks.
Yes, the Scherchen performance is very, very interesting, it creates a misterioso atmosphere. Very interesting indeed. I love it.
I'm listening to my Columbia Great Performances CD performance of the 8th with Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra. Thanks for pointing out about the basses at the beginning of the recapitulation. One can really hear them well in this recording, which I might add, I really like, as with what else I've heard of Szell's old Beethoven set on I guess, first Epic, then reissued on Columbia. And, if you'll indulge me, off topic, I have a lot of old pre-recorded cassettes and recently had a Strauss urge and loaded my recording of Ein Heldenleben, with Reiner and the Chicago, on an old RCA Victor 60+ cassette (which still sounds great, by the way), with liner notes by, of all people, Dave Hurwitz. Pleasant surprise it was.
"The ninth!" :-)
Thanks for hipping us to the Kletzki! There's something about vintage Czech performances with their sharp, short articulation contrasted with the sweetest melodic phrasing around. I remember the intermission of an old "Live from Lincoln Center" with host Joan Mondale, at that time the "second lady," interviewing the conductor (can't recall which), who commented on how orchestras worldwide were increasingly sounding alike. "Isn't that wonderful?" she replied. NOOOO! Thank God for these vintage recordings that preserve unique musical traditions, like Bartók preserved folk songs on his primitive recordings before they disappeared.
Czech Phil is one band that has managed to retain some original sound, burnished strings, perky woodwinds. They are always fabulous.
So happy to hear Paul Kletzki mentioned.
Yes. Indeed. I have been sampling this cycle on amazon music ever since Dave mentioned it in his Beethoven complete symphony cycle video. I just sampled the opening movement of 8 and it sounds glorious. My favs are szell and Bernstein but gonna give this a true listen tomorrow.
By the way. For all you out there who are ok with digital downloads, the whole cycle is available for $10 on presto classical. I just ordered and downloaded.
As a bassist, I can say that Beethoven is one of the funnest composers to play. I grew up on the Toscanini set (two copies of it in fact!), and I would say that set (and the memory of the odd symphony scherzos) was probably the biggest influence that made me really love classical music, particularly the more muscular and athletic aspects of it.
The Blomstedt/Dresden 8th is also a favorite (as is their Dvorak 8!)
Ever since you recommended the Kletzki cycle with the Czech Phil, I’ve fallen completely in love with it, particularly Symphonies 1, 4, and 8. Frankly, I’d completely lost interest in the Beethoven symphonies great as they are, because they are so over-recorded and over-performed. Kletzki takes the big prize here for me. I file it into the rare “could listen to it every day” department in my cerebellum.
I think for me. Beethoven is like the Beatles or Pink Floyd or u2 or Bruce or the stones. The greats. You love them but you have to take a break and then come back to them again. I find this particularly true of Floyd. I won’t listen to them for a year but then I will get into a Floyd thingy and listen to them walking the dog, doing housework whatever. Beethoven is like that for me. His symphonies. His concertos. His chamber stuff. His piano stuff. Gosh. Even his choral stuff. The man was a genius and quite frankly is the reason I love classical music. So. Here we have a Beethoven thingy that I think sounds really great. Dave. Hopefully you will go 8 through 1 in a short period so I can do my Beethoven thing. Maybe some concertos to follow? Maybe some chamber? Your guidance is what we look for.
Kletzki's No.2 is also among the greatest.
the 8th blew my mind the first time I heard it especially that first movement development section which Dave mentions is the greatest single climax and I agree wholeheartedly! My go to recording is Toscanini with NBC from 1939.
Fabulous choices, Mr. H! I am also quite fond of Papa Monteux with the Vienna Philharmonic; have you heard it? P.S. I fell in love with this work when I first heard Toscanini's fiery hot performance emerge from my hi fi speakers many moons ago.
Scherchen absolutely rules in the symphony for me, especially in the first movement, where, at the climax of the development played here by Dave, Beethoven calls for the incredibly rare (for him) command of "fff."
What about Felix Weingartner, For oldies? And Gardiner for modern? And I can't wait for Jordi Savall!! BTW, in the 8th, Karajan is marvelous. Kletzki, is now on my want list? And I like all the Beethoven symphonies, each of them has her qualities and interests, they are all enjoyable. And I remember an 8th conducted by Nézet SEguin with the orchestre Métropolitain that thrilled me so much. I get out of the concerthall on cloud nine
I have the Kletski integral set of the symphonies which are great, but is there any love here for the Hans Schmidt-Isserstedt Vienna PhilHarmonic recordings on Decca?
Dear R.Q. I do love the VPO Schmidt-Isserstedt Beethoven set!
The 8th has always been my favourite beethoven symphony and have many recordings . However the drive of the klemperer has always been the top of the pile for me.
Oh Klemperer! Dave. Can we please do a talk on Klemps? His whole world. Orchestral. Choral. Feel like he hasn’t gotten enough representation on your videos. Yet I love his Beethoven. His Brahms. Wagner. Strauss. Can we please start a conductor series?
@@alanmcginn4796 Dear Alan: I support your motion: Klempereur is magnificent!
@@alfredolabbe yes he is. Beyond belief. Such an amazing talent.
Great points about the challenges of performing this piece
Scherchen's Beethoven is pretty special to me, but that 8th in particular has been owned by him since the day I heard it. It's just so much fun. I haven't actually given Kletzki an in-depth listen yet and will do so soon!
I imprinted on the Jochum/COA 8th. I also like Bruno Walter's (Columbia) . Both conductors are tuned into LvB's humor. The rondo finale of the 8th transforms from funny to cosmic funny. Something similar happens in the rondo of the violin concerto. That movement begins with one of Ludwig's best comic ideas but somehow becomes profoundly humorous.
Thank you for mentioning Bruno Walter. He seems to be a conductor who has sadly fallen off the "radar"recently. Always one of my go to conductors.
Love the 8th. When I first started really collecting, comparing and listening to different recordings of Beethoven around 20 years ago one of the very first things that stood out to me was the basslines in the 8th and whether I could hear them clearly. Nice to hear someone else actually point that out. And I agree that Kletzki's cycle is a gem!
The Blomstedt you play doesn't have the ferocious intensity of Toscanini, but you can really hear the theme in the basses in the recap! I'm always told that moment is very difficult to balance.
re: the Wand Beethoven box. I wish someone at Sony was watching these reviews. Since it was first issued in a convenient cardboard box in 2018, Sony has reissued it in one of those annoying 5 CD plastic boxes with the fragile hinges. Not only that but the CDs are burned to order CD-Rs with glued-on paper labels. See the top 3 reviews on Amazon. Probably the best Beethoven set in the Sony catalog (and that's saying a lot), and Sony is treating it like crap.
I listened to the Beethoven symphonies only once about two years ago before your Ideal symphony cycle video, and since then, the 8th became my favorite. Maybe it's the humorous nature that appeals to my tastes, but I couldn't say what the jokes are. It just registers to me as exciting.
I think you're hearing exactly what you should!
I just bought the Kletski cycle & you’re totally right it sounds like no other.
My favourite symphony.
Thinking of David's comments on the importance of hearing the base line, a performance that may surprise but does very well is Giulini and the La Scala Philharmonic (sony). It's not slow - perhaps a little slower than the norm in the first movement (just over 10 minutes) - and he really gets the basses to dig in in that development section leading to the recapitulation in the first movement, and the climax blazes as it should. Much, much better than his earlier recording with the LSO (EMI). Bernstein and NYPO is also very impressive in this regard.
There are also two marvelous “rehearsal” recordings of the 8th by Scherchen. They are really wonderful and fun.
My second favorite (after the Eroica). You are so right about the climax before the recap.
My first recording of this masterpiece was Szell’s stereo recording. No one I’ve heard as captured the humor of the third movement minuet as well-purposely heavy footed and hilarious. My modern go-to versions are Zinman and Vanska. Both capture the spirit of the work so well and are wonderfully played by their respective orchestras. I’ll have to give P. Jarvi a listen based on your discussion.
I’m looking forward to your upcoming video “10 Funniest Classic Symphonies For Beginners”.
You're right on the money again regarding the importance of hearing those basses when they eventually get to play the melody in the first movement. I'm practically neurotic about this. It's what I always listen for when I hear a performance of the 8th for the first time. But it drives me crazy that nine times out of ten the basses are inaudible.
Kletzki, yes!!! What do you think of Casals/Marlboro? It’s got crags and gruffness in spades, and great energy in the low strings. Is the humor missing? Perhaps, but while it’s spinning, the conviction is infectious.
Casals is also one of the great ones.
I totally agree about the Kletzki, and the Eighth is my favorite Beethoven symphony with the Second being a close second. By the way, my favorite retransition in all of Beethoven’s output, as amazing as this one is, has to be that in his Fourth Piano Concerto: The dramatic rhythmic diminutions followed by the horns’ ejaculation at the cadence has an intensity unmatched by any other except perhaps by the retransition in Mahler’s Second Symphony.
I thought for sure you would mention the Pablo Casals and the Igor Markevitch recordings.
I could have, but you have the draw the line somewhere. That's the problem--too much of everything, and too much of it is excellent.
Actually the 8th is my favorite as Beethoven gets to the point without feeling he just HAD TO MAKE A POINT THAT HE WAS THE GREAT COMPOSER. He is relaxed but extremely brilliant and the symphonic writing is so ingenious, well-balanced and damn amazing. Beethoven showed this side early in his 2nd Symphony but not with the same economy or freedom as he did in the 8th.
I just watched the CZcams video of the First Movement, featuring THE KNIGHTS CHAMBER ORCHESTRA conducted by Eric Jacobsen. WOW! I hope they get around to recording the whole symphony.
I really enjoy the idea that the oldest performance can grasp things most right, and that noone until this day has been able to rise above it. In this case I'm talking about Toscanini's eighth, outstanding performance. Maybe only Blomstedt or Szell reach the same level..
Request(s): would be very interested in hearing your take on the best/worst Beethoven Piano Sonata box sets and the Hyperion Liszt/ Leslie Howard edition...
He has a video on Beethoven sonata cycles and lists Howard’s box as one of his recommended best boxed sets. Happy listening!
In Beecham's recording of Beethoven's 8th with the Royal Philharmonic, the middle movements always sound unique and very special to me , probably due to Beecham's expertness in Haydn.
Thank you for the wonderful new word, "adipose": for the storage of fat
Excellent!
Been listening to the whole Scherchen cycle after your recommendation of the 8th, I am enjoying it thus far! What are your overall thoughts on it?
I don't comment outside of the vids, except to agree or disagree with one of you. Listen and give us your own opinion, and if I have anything add I will.
What always amazes me with Beethoven's symphonies is that my favourite individual recordings and cycles are almost exclusively not those by the most famous conductors working with prestigious German/Austrian orchestras. Give me Gielen, Tennstedt, Blunier and Mackerras (well, on Hyperion) over Karajan, Kleiber, Furtwangler, Bohm or Wand.
👍 I would love to hear your pick(s) for the Violin Sonatas too...
And the piano trios!
Do you think it also have something to do with the concert hall or the playing style that the bass in Beethoven 8th tends to be inaudible with HIPs? Because I went to a Beethoven 8th concert in mid-2020 at a small opera house built in traditional style, the stage is really small so they could only fit an orchestra with 5 bass players, but I can tell you that the sound of the bass is very loud and clear.
Every time Uncle Dave does a Beethoven video I know it's going to cost me bucks, not this time coz I've got the Wand and Jarvi sets, Huzzah ! . . . oh no, I've gotta have Kletzki now. Ebay is calling and my bank balance is frowning.
Presto classical!! Whole cycle is available for 10 bucks.
@@alanmcginn4796 I use World of Books on Ebay (here in the UK) coz they funnel funds back into charities. I'll definitely check out Presto though if I can't find what I want. I've just listened to the Toscanini 8th on CZcams and it's a game changer, as though I'm listening for the first time. I'll need new CD storage soon !
@@clemteetonball1250 yes. I have used world of books for several purchases. They have great service also. I recently purchased sawallisch Schubert EMI choral music set from them. Gonna give the Toscanini 8 a listen to today. I do struggle with bad sound though.
Dave I totally agree that it is critical to bring home that first movement climax at letter D, and for me the one who does this best is the 1962 Karajan. The rest of the performance, apart from a slightly heavy 3rd movement, is also at the highest level. One thing he does NOT do is to slow down in the last two bars of the first movement. To do so completely ruins the effect, and any recording in which this is done is ruled out for me.
No arguments with your selections, though the Kletzki sounds as though he underplays the many sf markings which Beethoven went to the trouble of writing in to the development section.
I do agree with you about HIP orchestras tending to be light on basses, but what you didn't mention is that the basses double the cellos (sounding an octave lower of course) through almost the whole score, so you can blame a weak bass/base sound on them as well.
Finally, thanks for referring to the "Schlamperei Vienna Orchestra". I know exactly what you mean, and it gave me a good laugh.😆
If anyone owns the Günter Wand Beethoven symphony cycle - are there any lacking recordings in the whole set? I've not heard it all but so far I am just in love with every single one! Wand may slowly be becoming my favourite Beethoven conductor!
Recommend checking David's "The Best Beethoven Symphony Cycles" video/talk where David lists Wand's cycle as his top choice.
@@jac9229 thank you!
What, no tie?!
And I love the creative application of "adipose."
Only the Ninth gets a tie.
Ah . . .
Dave, your description of Scherchen sounds a lot like my experience with Chailly’s version of the eighth. Can you tell me how you’d compare the two?
They don't sound at all alike.
Any love out there for Steinberg's Pittsburgh 8th? I think it's an impressive, muscular performance. That development section into the recapitulation in the first movement, in his hands is a terrifically tense, titanic struggle. The last movement also very exciting. Wonderful stuff IMO.
@@paxpaxart4740 Thanks.... it was through the DG reissue I got to know the Steinberg version!
The Steinberg box on DG was one of my best buys in 2020 together with the Kletzki.
I appreciate period instrument performances and believe we need them, but never consider them the "end all" version. What these people never seem to remember is that Beethoven (and many other composers) really were writing music far beyond the orchestral sounds of their time, and would have jumped at the chance to have a modern orchestra.
Beethoven 8 is a symphony that I always pass on, but when I do listen to it I kick myself for not listening to it more often...thanks for waking me up👍
You can never go wrong with the Czechs 😁
"What these people never seem to remember is that Beethoven (and many other composers) really were writing music far beyond the orchestral sounds of their time" -- they don't remember it because it's not true.
After the 3rd as the greatest, it's a tie between the 5th, 7th and 8th, in my opinion.
The trio of the 3rd movement is one of my favorite moments in all of Beethoven...especially when the strings shift from major to minor with the horn filigree in the background. Stunningly beautiful. This symphony is a complete masterpiece. I agree that everyone should get the Kletzki Czech cycle. I also like Hans Rosbaud in the Rosbaud Beethoven box.
Kletzki is without a doubt is a super performance unfortunately is let down by sound dynamics. Maybe I'm a bit finicky. The sound to my ears is too thin and bright. My favourite version is Jochum/Concertgebouworkest . Philips highest quality sound and the performance is top notch. Jochum style fits this music, just like his excellent Haydn recordings.
I don't know if "finicky" is the word. The sonics are warm and full--"thin" is the last word I would use to describe them, and they are certainly not over-bright. I'm not sure what you are hearing.
Based on more than 50 years of observation, the 8th is not Beethoven's least popular symphonies. I believe that honor goes to the 2nd due to its difficulty in playing it. Just my opinion FWIW.
Possibly...
I always enjoyed Szell Cleveland in this for orchestra excellence even though it is a little humorless
Tl;dr:
It's all about that bass
'bout that bass no treble
The first time I heard the Eighth (Walter) I burst out laughing at the end of the minuet. Those winds sound so irreverent!