That's a your mileage may vary thing. As much as I love the .45 style grip with its roughly 45 degree grip angle, the most intuitive shooting grips I've handled have about an 86 degree angle or basically almost L shaped frame. Now granted a good portion of this experience comes from my years dealing in high end paintball guns and competition. But seeing as marksmanship and close quarters combat are a large part of that sport I feel the experience translates pretty well. I had guys who insulted my sidearms inability to point on a target with a modern shooting grip, saying it was unrealistic and therefore impractical. Didn't stop me from embarassing them on the playing field.
Military: We like the design, but there's some flaws we'd like you to correct. Hugo Borchardt: No. The weapon is perfect as it is. John Browning: Oh, we already got that fixed in the next model. Have a look!
Some General in his office talking to a bureaucrat: Lets face it we do this just to make the arms industries feel better because every time we find a problem with these guns. That John Browning has already designed a new and better one in the time it takes to test them.
Ettore Bugatti was once asked why he insisted on using the already archaic cable brakes on his race cars in the early 20th century. His reply: "My cars are made to go; not stop!" This was about the time his cars started losing races because it was becoming apparent that good brakes were just as important as powerful engines.
And that's why DWM went forward with Georg Luger's designs. When it comes down to it, having someone who's not to proud to admit that improvements can be made and also is willing to make them is one of the best things you can have.
@@davidmeyer8930 Wow. Yeah. The 1910 was my choice... thank you for the post, as I would have actually searched for it. Way, WAY beyond my means, but that 1910 is everything. There will hopefully be some American collector, and 1911 aficionado, who will buy it. Would be a real shame to allow it out of the country. Historical items such as these - American history - should be relegated to staying within the USA, and owned by natural born citizens.
So Browning also invented and or perfected the slide stop that we are all familiar with on modern pistols. From Glock to Remington there is no escaping Browning.
@Louis Sanderson I wouldn't be surprised. That man has more one off, one of a kind than I've seen outside of museums. And you KNOW we haven't seen it all. There's got to be stuff in there we'll never see just because of the provenance.
I still remember the 1903 Pocket Hammer that Ian looked at in his comprehensive 1911 development video where the finish on the slide was still in beautiful condition. That thing was gorgeous.
Very cool. The M1911A1 was the first pistol I was actually taught to shoot in the late 1980s before the US Army transitioned to the M9. I put a lot of rounds through that one.
6000 rounds without a single malfunction is remarkable for any weapon, e even today. This is absolutely amazing to achieve 110 years ago when semiautomatic was a super new technology. Great video, John
For a pistol that many consider divine inspiration, this is a great reminder that though Browning was clearly inspired and talented , his great firearms came more from blood, sweat, and tears than epiphany.
It's so fascinating to see the iteration that went into this, I was vaguely familiar with the 1911 from my military service (knew some people that swore by it. Wasn't huge into guns at the time myself.) and I always thought it was just a cool gun that's been around for a long time. But I /love/ seeing the creativity and choices that went into its production and the reasons that they're like that. Thanks so much for all you do, Ian. You've always been one of my favorite parts of CZcams, but every video you release I learn an all new respect and admiration for your work. Hope you and yours are staying safe and healthy.
I find it ironic that Calvary had so much influence on the development of the 1911 pistol given their impending obsolescence of the horse mounted soldiers.
@@colbunkmust not sure if it counts as a cavalry charge, but 5th group SF road horses into battle in the very first days of the global war on terror. Watch the movie 12 strong.
John Palmer - just like us current Crusty Old Geezers, they didn’t foresee the impending doom of the pony soldier, so the will to fight and win was still there. Look up and watch “In Pursuit of Honor” with Don Johnson about the military ending the cavalry units. It’s really good.
Cavalry was the only branch of the service that had much use for pistols. Almost a primary weapon for a horseman while only a backup weapon for every other branch.
WOW! Thanks for bringing us this information, I would never see these firearms otherwise. A 6,000 round endurance test would be a challenge for some of today's handguns.
ironhead2008 I think you are correct, I’m thinking these vids will be referred to in the description in the 1911 episodes at least, if not actually filmed for use directly
@@ALRinaldi It's well worth it, the cost is cheap and besides the old trains and cars the Browning part on the second floor is like stepping into one of the nearby temples. Also I fully agree Ian needs to go their as it would give the museum some good publicity.
I know we've all been here a long while now, but still I am reminded at how amazing it is to have a 100+ years old, functioning, pristine-looking mechanical piece of art staring us in the face. Just incredible.
TheGoldenCaulk - sometime in the 1980s: “polymer guns? I don’t see it going very far”. Today: “3D printed guns? I don’t see it going very far”. I guess there are naysayers in every generation haha!
The description of the tests is fascinating. Nowadays the 1911 is a classic old pistol but it must have been the HK23 of its day. I wonder if they had a couple of soldiers fire and reload it for twelve hours, or if they used some kind of trigger-pulling testing machine?
It's so cool watching these weapons slowly morph and change, Browning and others behind the curtain changing the game while it's still being played. They've got something new and unique the moment you say "Welllllll, maybe?" And suddenly, the 1911 and it still wasn't done improving!
Thank you for this pair of videos. My two .45s are a WWII mil spec 1911 and a USP. I love the grip angle and controls. SO educational to learn about the evolution of the 1911; looking back on how I was taught about firearms, one would think JMB simply laid an egg and a 1911 was inside. This was a truly wonderful, educational experience. Thank you Gun Jesus!
Awesome, interesting and informative. Having fired the 1911 it has such a nice rythm when recoil lets it slowly fall into position for next shot, feels good. I think both contenders in these final trials are cool designs.
Taking a step back - think about how crazy it is that Ian is just casually holding what might be one of the most influential pistols (not designs - the exact 1909 handgun he's holding) of all time and is making a video on it.
Perhaps, but the last thing I think I'd want to do while on horseback and on the move during a fight is fiddle with a heel mag release. I don't blame them for hating it.
@@marshaul Yeah, even if you have to do it two-handed anyway, trying to hit that tiny heel release while your horse is bucking around seems like it'd be a pain.
As I understand it, the logic was that the cavalryman must always have a hand on the reigns. With the 1892 that was standard at the time, you'd open the cylinder, ram the extractor against your leg or whatever to eject the empty shells, then transfer the gun into your left hand which was holding the reigns and reload. No huge amount of manual dexterity needed, you just stick your thumb through the cylinder space in the frame or something. No comparable way to do that with a heel release as you have to have both a good grip on the handgun and also be able to operate the release and hold the mag with the other hand. Though I am not a turn of the century cavalryman so I might have it all wrong :D.
There is only one answer to this: InRangeTV. Ian and Karl get out your revolvers and heel activated autos and get on your horses. You guys got to test this!
You technically can unload and empty revolver with one hand such as the .38s they were using. You can open the cylinder with one hand and access the ejector with a finger. Reloading is a different story though.
You've been able to get your hands and camera on almost all of the various types of guns that eventually became the 1911 or 3 or 4 videos which is a feat in and of itself, and it's been very interesting to see all of the progression
Great pistol. However I have a lot to thank my browning 9mm for. It got me home relatively safe! This however is an icon, great to shoot, great to look at. Smashing piece of history.
So you’re saying the best automatic pistol came to be because some needy cavalrymen wouldn’t stop complaining. (Edit: “Arguably” the best. Personal preference may vary.)
ColBunkMust I am speaking in terms of its historical significance and innovation. Maybe the CZ is a better operating pistol (I don’t have the experience to make that judgement), but it came 64 years’ worth of lessons learned later. Your preference may vary. 🤷🏻♂️
The description of enlisted infantry has got to be the best description I have ever heard, I’m literally out of breath, I have seldom laughed so hard or so much :D
3:07 This looks remarkably like how the Korth pistol ejects its magazine clear of the gun. How far would the magazine have traveled without Ian's hand to block it?
Well, thanks a damn lot! I have a Springfield PX9109L already and now I want another 1911 thanks to this video. But I need a new computer too. So, now I have to explain to the wife why I need both. Damn!
I can't explain why I never tire of that story. I hope whoever buys those pistols displays them in a way that is appropriate, so others will ask questions that lead them to that story. Thank you "Gun Jesus".
Does anyone know how they did the 6000 shot tests? If they took 12h that would be 500 per h, a bit more than a magazine theoretically per minute.. Did they put brakes in between to clean and let the guns cool of?
LV 16 I read or heard somewhere they would dunk it in a bucket of water periodically to cool it, but you’re right, that’s a lot of ammo in twelve hours.
Wait hold on Ian did you say acid test? I don't know about everyone else but I'm thinking any gun that can still function after being dipped in acid can probably be considered fairly reliable.
Being dipped in acid isn’t really remarkable. Acid needs time to act, and even sitting overnight didn’t do much except for the machining malfunction. The acid just destroyed the finish and ate into the faulty part.
Were there engineering drawings for these earlier firearms? Did JB just toss out a verbal description of what he wanted, then throw a piece of metal onto his machinist's bench? Owning one of the original drawings, if they even exist, along with one of the prototypes or test guns would be the grand prize!
Yes JB designed every single weapon and part onto paper, that is how he patented them. That said for him the paper was just a formality as his siblings often saw him and described him moving his hands. Assembly and disassembling every component like he was handling a real weapon then upon completion put it to paper then he would begin building the thing. Such was his genius that the media at the time questioned why he stopped to do a two year mission.
Thank you for this. What an outstanding piece of American History, saddens me not enough people know about this. One thing to mention is how interchangeability, perfected with the 1911, set the US up to be the mass production capital of the world. It’s no coincidence the 1911 and Model Ts were developed around the same time. Saddens me we’ve traded mass production of excellent products for mass consumption of disposable nonsense...
I know this isn't related this this video but I never knew Leeds royal armory in the UK (the city next to my home city) had a private section full of firearms for professional research. I only knew about the publicly accessable part. At least now I know where my very first stop during the zombie apocalypse should be.
I'm on a horse and don't want a two handed mag release, I'd rather just have it pop out and fall to the ground. Oh, takes a second hand to load the new mag anyway? I'd still rather throw my empty on the ground.
There was a lanyard loop on the magazines, so it will just dangle somewhere on your side once dropped. Also, you can partially reholster your pistol, or wedge it somewhere, insert a new magazine, draw the pistol again, and then drop the slide. Not ideal, but definitely doable, and not too unsafe. (And the pistol also has a lanyard, so you can't really lose it during such a wonky one-handed reload either)
I daresay those mag lanyard loops were rarely used in actual calvary combat conditions. I can see how the lanyard string would easily get in the way/tangled up on horseback while trying to aim and shoot. Some trials ordinance officer undoubtedly thought it was a good idea so as not to lose mags ($$$), but probably never was really used.
MKR RKM During the Pancho Villa expedition there were accounts of cavalry leaving behind trails of empty magazines so yeah I doubt lanyards were really used in combat.
Jack Westlin I think yesterday with the 1907 model he mentioned in the cavalry report they didn’t think it did it’s job and was useless, might be wrong.
I have a Combat Commander, the "little brother" of the 1911, and I absolutely love it. Never a malfunction, except for an occasional stovepipe when using lower-power budget (read "cheap") ammo for target practice. My motto is ".45 ACP, because having to shoot the perp twice is silly."
Wow! Very strict quality control, the 1911 is a great pistol indeed, obviously it’s, in practical terms, a little outdated for the modern warfare and security standards, but it keeps that seal of quality, precision and utility. 👍🏻 a great gun, very appreciated in it’s .38 Super caliber version here in México.
The problem was he saw the problems before the Army did, As Ian noted by the time one set of trials were over Browning already had a new one or two for the Army to try out. Also he succeeded multiple times before that point. Look JMBs biography as there is a reason why he his considered the greatest arms designer in history even by today's standards.
Always a fascinating subject. I can't remember much about the Savage entry. Was it a scaled up verion of their M1907 .32 ACP? Was it blowback? I seem to recall the Savage 32 was one of the first to have the recoil spring around the barrel. Amazing what a difference the small change to the grip angle makes. It is a whole different gun. That earlier locking system was odd. Never seen that before. Thanks for the lessons. Great video as always. Thank you.
Nice always been a fan of the 45 auto. Even with all these modern and modular handguns we have today the 1911 is still for me one of the nicer handguns to fire. I owned a few Glocks over the years, and a Para Ordnance at one time but the single stack 1911 is it. I think I know where that stimulus check is going, to support a local small business, my local gun shop.
A very interesting video, thanks. This is absolute proof of evolution, you can see how natural selection and random mutations over time led to the beloved 1911. Wait! whats that - there was a designer? All hail John Browning!
Very interesting. Thanks for putting this on your show. Good writing, photography or I guess videography and speaking clearly and logically. I really enjoy watching the Forgotten Weapons. I wish the process of picking military weapons today was as demanding today as it was back in the day. It seems like committees who know nothing about the science involved are demanding all in one and modular weapons that can't seem to be vest of class. It seems like there always has to be a compromise. I think that is why the A-10 ground support aircraft is so popular. It is being upgraded and is still outstanding in its class.
Contrary to what you may have heard the M-17 actually proved way superior in testing then the old M9. The Army does infact put new hardware through the ringer. Glock simply sued because they are Glock and everyone loves Glock. Such is their lack of ingenuity that the now infamous Glock 44 is being beaten by a cheaper and better .22 built by Taurus no less. The M-17 did need some fixing and today the M-17A1 is a very reliable and accurate pistol.
Probably to avoid patent infringement. Browning sold his 1911 patent to Colt, so when he designed the Hi-Power for FN, he had to avoid using anything from the 1911.
Congrats Gun Jesus for finding the beautiful 1910 because that's one of the 2 rarest variations of the 1911 [The other being the Singer 1911]. In the end, the story of the 1911 since 2014 is fulfilled :)
You can reload it with one hand as well. You put the gun in the holster you take a full magazine you put it into the gun and then if the slide is forward you merely put the recoil plug against the saddle horn and rack the slide. If the slide is back you just push the slide release with your thumb or index finger. Ford Rangers from you and it was designed that way so the cavalryman could reload the firearm with one hand. Beatitude vintage of the thumb safety is that means that you don't have any need to put the hammer down, because that's dangerous as well. The firearm is designed to be carried with the hammer cocked. I recently got a hell of a lot of grief at a job I was doing for carrying my firearm exactly the way John Moses Browning prescribes. The man claimed to be a Firearms instructor and told me that in no uncertain terms is that firearm ever to be carried in that matter. I told him to stop drinking or I would throw him out of the venue. Because if he did know anything about 1911 he had no business opining on the damn thing.
Go ahead, laid out for us, or me. I always thought you were supposed to carry it and condition one, cocked and locked, but I'm recently hearing a wave of arguments that that is not the case, but I guess it's supposed to be carried on the half cock notch?
@@nichevo1 half-cock is a dangerous way to carry it. Not only because that half-cock Notch is subject to breakage if you drop the firearm on its hammer and causes it to go off who-knows-where. But it also can't be fired from that condition without reaching with your thumb and very awkwardly trying to con to hammer at anytime of what you can inadvertently not get it cocked or as you're trying to take hold of the weapon inadvertently fire it. Cocked and locked is the mechanism by which it was designed to be carried. There are three functions and sometimes four functions that the thumb safety provides to keep the firearm from firing without taking it off. There are three or four functions that the grip safety provides that keeps the fire alarm from going off before you have a proper grip on it or have applied it in any other way. The firearm is designed to be exactly safe, and only perfectly safe when it is cocked and locked, when it is loaded. There is no safe way to put the hammer on to half cock or uncock the firearm because you have a round in the chamber while you're messing with the firearm in a method that is not a part of the way to handle the firearm. The only reason you can see that the hammer is cocked is because it is not a shrouded Hammer. Almost all firearms that do not have shrouded hammers are usually caught for decades before they ever invented the first double action single action weapon. Which is just adding complexity to a firearm that doesn't need it. The way you use a firearm is to train with that firearm and carry it properly. If you are concerned about it oh, and you wish to carry a Browning design firearm. Get the Browning Hi Power and have the fast actions system put on to it. What that does is when you put the safety on it drops the hammer and when you take the safety off a tree Cox the hammer. But that does add complexity to the firing mechanism. Otherwise when people who don't know what the hell they're talking about inquire about it just tell them that's the way this firearm is designed according to this designer John Moses Browning. Surprisingly John Moses Browning was a very well-read individual. He also happened to be a high priest. He had worked as a mercenary to learn more about firearms and he is the most prolific Firearms designer in world history. I think that you can take his word on how to carry it. The military had eventually adopted a method of loading the firearm and never putting around into the chamber requiring you to rack the slide. There is a way to do that and be fairly quick about putting the firearm into action but it does require both hands. And you're not always sure you're going to have both hands available to the firearm when you need it. John Moses Browning was also a huge advocate of understanding that safety is between the ears of the operator. That's it!
It’s crazy how much the grip angle improves the aesthetics of the gun
That's a your mileage may vary thing. As much as I love the .45 style grip with its roughly 45 degree grip angle, the most intuitive shooting grips I've handled have about an 86 degree angle or basically almost L shaped frame. Now granted a good portion of this experience comes from my years dealing in high end paintball guns and competition. But seeing as marksmanship and close quarters combat are a large part of that sport I feel the experience translates pretty well. I had guys who insulted my sidearms inability to point on a target with a modern shooting grip, saying it was unrealistic and therefore impractical. Didn't stop me from embarassing them on the playing field.
Yes, the pre 1910 models look so much nicer!
It's all about them angles baby
Military: We like the design, but there's some flaws we'd like you to correct.
Hugo Borchardt: No. The weapon is perfect as it is.
John Browning: Oh, we already got that fixed in the next model. Have a look!
Some General in his office talking to a bureaucrat: Lets face it we do this just to make the arms industries feel better because every time we find a problem with these guns. That John Browning has already designed a new and better one in the time it takes to test them.
That insane guy who designed the Mars pistol: WHAT WAS THAT? I CANNOT HEAR YOU!
Ettore Bugatti was once asked why he insisted on using the already archaic cable brakes on his race cars in the early 20th century. His reply: "My cars are made to go; not stop!" This was about the time his cars started losing races because it was becoming apparent that good brakes were just as important as powerful engines.
And that's why DWM went forward with Georg Luger's designs. When it comes down to it, having someone who's not to proud to admit that improvements can be made and also is willing to make them is one of the best things you can have.
@@tarmaque If I recall correctly, the biggest jump in average speed in racing came with the advent of disk breaks.
I imagine the designers at Savage would sit at their desk shaking their fists grumbling “Browning.”
That 1909 is going to go for some big bucks, being the actual origin of pretty much everything modern.
Lot 1475 (1910)-estimated 85k-130k. Lot 1477 (1909)-estimated 70k-110k.
@@davidmeyer8930 Wow. Yeah. The 1910 was my choice... thank you for the post, as I would have actually searched for it. Way, WAY beyond my means, but that 1910 is everything. There will hopefully be some American collector, and 1911 aficionado, who will buy it. Would be a real shame to allow it out of the country. Historical items such as these - American history - should be relegated to staying within the USA, and owned by natural born citizens.
So Browning also invented and or perfected the slide stop that we are all familiar with on modern pistols. From Glock to Remington there is no escaping Browning.
@Louis Sanderson I wouldn't be surprised. That man has more one off, one of a kind than I've seen outside of museums. And you KNOW we haven't seen it all. There's got to be stuff in there we'll never see just because of the provenance.
@@workingguy6666 its not that serious my guy
It's amazing, how some additional degrees of grip angle make a guns appearance way more attractive.
PỺO's MƎᴻTɐʟ MƎʟTdowɴs Well, a beavertail too.
The earlier ones just look really awkward and uncomfortable. Form follows function, etc.
Some people still like the tokarev, smh
That’s why the a earlier ones look like an old Sig 😬
Probably also bias and expectations, too.
They look really good for their age. It's cool to see the guns that led up to the Colt 1911
They are a 110 years old and look almost modern, worn out but still modern. Thats crazy
I still remember the 1903 Pocket Hammer that Ian looked at in his comprehensive 1911 development video where the finish on the slide was still in beautiful condition. That thing was gorgeous.
Very cool.
The M1911A1 was the first pistol I was actually taught to shoot in the late 1980s before the US Army transitioned to the M9.
I put a lot of rounds through that one.
My father served from 1970 to 1982 and he loved his Singer 1911, he shot on the pistol team for the US Army in West Germany for years with it
6000 rounds without a single malfunction is remarkable for any weapon, e even today. This is absolutely amazing to achieve 110 years ago when semiautomatic was a super new technology. Great video, John
For a pistol that many consider divine inspiration, this is a great reminder that though Browning was clearly inspired and talented , his great firearms came more from blood, sweat, and tears than epiphany.
It's so fascinating to see the iteration that went into this, I was vaguely familiar with the 1911 from my military service (knew some people that swore by it. Wasn't huge into guns at the time myself.) and I always thought it was just a cool gun that's been around for a long time. But I /love/ seeing the creativity and choices that went into its production and the reasons that they're like that.
Thanks so much for all you do, Ian. You've always been one of my favorite parts of CZcams, but every video you release I learn an all new respect and admiration for your work. Hope you and yours are staying safe and healthy.
I'll bet a lot swore at it :-)
@@51WCDodge Nearly as much as the 249 xD
A gun made by John Browning that he actually fettled. These wont be cheap.
Calling Mr Fireplace!!!
Assuming the seller doesn't pull it from auction. I'd have a hard time letting a gun like that go at any price...
@@JjJj-fq2dh Well considering John browning's fathers harmonica gun sold for that range. its not surprising.
Starting bids are 60k and 75k.
Looking at the finish on that Colt 1909 makes me feel a whole lot better about the finish on my Colt 1903.
He was a god damn genius when it comes to firearms. 100 years from now people will still recognize the 1911. I need one.
100 years from now the M2 will still be blasting in the name of freedom.
@@Predator42IDthere is still a couple M2's still in service today in the Army since the Great War.
@@metalbob3335 There were no M2s in the great war.
I find it ironic that Calvary had so much influence on the development of the 1911 pistol given their impending obsolescence of the horse mounted soldiers.
the last model of US cavalry sword was adopted in 1913, and the last horse mounted cavalry charge the US participated in was in 1945 in Austria...
@@colbunkmust not sure if it counts as a cavalry charge, but 5th group SF road horses into battle in the very first days of the global war on terror. Watch the movie 12 strong.
John Palmer - just like us current Crusty Old Geezers, they didn’t foresee the impending doom of the pony soldier, so the will to fight and win was still there. Look up and watch “In Pursuit of Honor” with Don Johnson about the military ending the cavalry units. It’s really good.
Cavalry was the only branch of the service that had much use for pistols. Almost a primary weapon for a horseman while only a backup weapon for every other branch.
calvary is a church denomination, cavalry is horse mounted troops
WOW! Thanks for bringing us this information, I would never see these firearms otherwise. A 6,000 round endurance test would be a challenge for some of today's handguns.
When I was in the Army the Beretta was new and a few of the hard core older officers still carried the 1911 as they refused to carry anything else.
Othias is crying...seeing the whole cast of his 1911 episode lead in all here for sale.... but so out of C&R’s budget
But but ..... War Weren't Declared
I'm betting he had Ian take some obnoxiously detailed pics though. Probably made him take the lightbox with him!
ironhead2008 I think you are correct, I’m thinking these vids will be referred to in the description in the 1911 episodes at least, if not actually filmed for use directly
Ian, you really need to get out to the Browning Firearm Museum in Ogden UT. It's pretty much all Browning prototypes.
Sounds like I need to add a stop to my road trip bucket list.
@@ALRinaldi It's well worth it, the cost is cheap and besides the old trains and cars the Browning part on the second floor is like stepping into one of the nearby temples. Also I fully agree Ian needs to go their as it would give the museum some good publicity.
I know we've all been here a long while now, but still I am reminded at how amazing it is to have a 100+ years old, functioning, pristine-looking mechanical piece of art staring us in the face. Just incredible.
"Browning's Automatic? I don't see it going very far...." - some cavalry guy
TheGoldenCaulk - sometime in the 1980s: “polymer guns? I don’t see it going very far”. Today: “3D printed guns? I don’t see it going very far”. I guess there are naysayers in every generation haha!
This metallic cartridge thing will never catch on.
"Boomsticks replacing swords? I don't see that as anything beyond a tale of fiction." - some guy in the 12th century
Magazine rifles will never catch on! All they will accomplish is allowing our conscripts to waste ammunition with greater efficiency.
“Full auto??! What a waste!!”
The description of the tests is fascinating. Nowadays the 1911 is a classic old pistol but it must have been the HK23 of its day. I wonder if they had a couple of soldiers fire and reload it for twelve hours, or if they used some kind of trigger-pulling testing machine?
"Yeah....it's OK, but the Colt revolver won two wars!!" - at least one US Marine
If you go back in time ,probably 5 or 6.
The webley won two world wars too
It's so cool watching these weapons slowly morph and change, Browning and others behind the curtain changing the game while it's still being played. They've got something new and unique the moment you say "Welllllll, maybe?" And suddenly, the 1911 and it still wasn't done improving!
Thank you for this pair of videos. My two .45s are a WWII mil spec 1911 and a USP. I love the grip angle and controls. SO educational to learn about the evolution of the 1911; looking back on how I was taught about firearms, one would think JMB simply laid an egg and a 1911 was inside. This was a truly wonderful, educational experience. Thank you Gun Jesus!
That 1910 is one of the most gorgeous pistols I've ever seen. Love the lines
Awesome, interesting and informative. Having fired the 1911 it has such a nice rythm when recoil lets it slowly fall into position for next shot, feels good. I think both contenders in these final trials are cool designs.
Taking a step back - think about how crazy it is that Ian is just casually holding what might be one of the most influential pistols (not designs - the exact 1909 handgun he's holding) of all time and is making a video on it.
Objecting to the use two of hands to empty and reload seems odd considering this could'nt be done with the existing revolvers either.
Perhaps, but the last thing I think I'd want to do while on horseback and on the move during a fight is fiddle with a heel mag release. I don't blame them for hating it.
@@marshaul Yeah, even if you have to do it two-handed anyway, trying to hit that tiny heel release while your horse is bucking around seems like it'd be a pain.
As I understand it, the logic was that the cavalryman must always have a hand on the reigns. With the 1892 that was standard at the time, you'd open the cylinder, ram the extractor against your leg or whatever to eject the empty shells, then transfer the gun into your left hand which was holding the reigns and reload. No huge amount of manual dexterity needed, you just stick your thumb through the cylinder space in the frame or something.
No comparable way to do that with a heel release as you have to have both a good grip on the handgun and also be able to operate the release and hold the mag with the other hand.
Though I am not a turn of the century cavalryman so I might have it all wrong :D.
There is only one answer to this: InRangeTV. Ian and Karl get out your revolvers and heel activated autos and get on your horses. You guys got to test this!
You technically can unload and empty revolver with one hand such as the .38s they were using. You can open the cylinder with one hand and access the ejector with a finger. Reloading is a different story though.
You've been able to get your hands and camera on almost all of the various types of guns that eventually became the 1911 or 3 or 4 videos which is a feat in and of itself, and it's been very interesting to see all of the progression
15 out of 6000 rounds is only 1/4 of 1%. That's pretty spectacular for any gun.
Wow. Those are super cool pieces of firearm history. Thank you for the history lesson and for sharing these with us.
Great pistol. However I have a lot to thank my browning 9mm for. It got me home relatively safe! This however is an icon, great to shoot, great to look at. Smashing piece of history.
Thanks Ian for the informative video.
The quantum leap from the 1907 and 1911 is so impressive.
I guess it pays to browse the auction house. Early access to videos!
Great work Ian, thanks again!!
I am really appreciating this steady stream of updates during this stint at home.
These videos were all made before the virus got hold. There will eventually be a dip in volume and quality.
So you’re saying the best automatic pistol came to be because some needy cavalrymen wouldn’t stop complaining.
(Edit: “Arguably” the best. Personal preference may vary.)
The CZ-75 wasn't tested by cavalrymen...
@@titanscerw Don't worry, I don't expect every single Czech to have the right amount of appreciation for the the best auto pistol.
ColBunkMust I am speaking in terms of its historical significance and innovation. Maybe the CZ is a better operating pistol (I don’t have the experience to make that judgement), but it came 64 years’ worth of lessons learned later. Your preference may vary. 🤷🏻♂️
@@messmeister92Yeah, I'm just joshing ya :P
messmeister92 you ever shout off a horse ?
Thanks for another great vid
The description of enlisted infantry has got to be the best description I have ever heard, I’m literally out of breath, I have seldom laughed so hard or so much :D
Gun Jesus tells us another wonderful tale from the left hand of the Gun God himself! John Browning!
Neat history. Thanks, Ian.
Very interesting as usual keep up the great work
3:07 This looks remarkably like how the Korth pistol ejects its magazine clear of the gun. How far would the magazine have traveled without Ian's hand to block it?
Browning and colt: an iconic duo.
Well, thanks a damn lot! I have a Springfield PX9109L already and now I want another 1911 thanks to this video. But I need a new computer too. So, now I have to explain to the wife why I need both. Damn!
I can't explain why I never tire of that story. I hope whoever buys those pistols displays them in a way that is appropriate, so others will ask questions that lead them to that story. Thank you "Gun Jesus".
If I had the money I would have a display of all the pistols from the 1900 to the 1911
A work of art
that vintage metal shine looks so good. thanks Ian!
My body is ready.
Does anyone know how they did the 6000 shot tests? If they took 12h that would be 500 per h, a bit more than a magazine theoretically per minute.. Did they put brakes in between to clean and let the guns cool of?
I’ve heard they dunked it in water every now and again to cool it, which considering the metallurgy, makes it even more impressive.
LV 16 I read or heard somewhere they would dunk it in a bucket of water periodically to cool it, but you’re right, that’s a lot of ammo in twelve hours.
Interesting, thanks for the answers
At least from the earliest manual, Memorandum No.1866, they basically brag about dumping three magazines in 12 seconds.
@The Prometheus ProjectLMFAO thats funny, I dont care who you are!
Great video guys! Keep up the good work!
These are the holy grail of pistols.
There might be something better or more expensive but this is sheer perfection.
@The Prometheus Project i meant to talk in regard of the development that led to m1911. That certainly is something special.
Wait hold on Ian did you say acid test? I don't know about everyone else but I'm thinking any gun that can still function after being dipped in acid can probably be considered fairly reliable.
In a parallel world Browning's 1911 is a historical footnote because its solid gold frame sailed through the acid test but failed everything else.
Being dipped in acid isn’t really remarkable. Acid needs time to act, and even sitting overnight didn’t do much except for the machining malfunction. The acid just destroyed the finish and ate into the faulty part.
Were there engineering drawings for these earlier firearms? Did JB just toss out a verbal description of what he wanted, then throw a piece of metal onto his machinist's bench? Owning one of the original drawings, if they even exist, along with one of the prototypes or test guns would be the grand prize!
Yes JB designed every single weapon and part onto paper, that is how he patented them. That said for him the paper was just a formality as his siblings often saw him and described him moving his hands. Assembly and disassembling every component like he was handling a real weapon then upon completion put it to paper then he would begin building the thing.
Such was his genius that the media at the time questioned why he stopped to do a two year mission.
Nice information and really good story.
Makes me proud to own a modern-day 1911. Love this channel.
Great video Ian
Thank you for this. What an outstanding piece of American History, saddens me not enough people know about this. One thing to mention is how interchangeability, perfected with the 1911, set the US up to be the mass production capital of the world. It’s no coincidence the 1911 and Model Ts were developed around the same time. Saddens me we’ve traded mass production of excellent products for mass consumption of disposable nonsense...
Great story-telling voice!
Now that is some history you have there!
Excellent presentation, especially with two pre-1911 pistols as examples.
Thank you! Very informative and well delivered presentation that aptly illustrates an important part of American military handgun history.
Not sure why but, "CALIBRE 45 RIMLESS SMOKELESS" just sounds cool and looks good on the slide.
Actual trial guns ... very cool!
I really appreciate your work. Please keep it up.
I know this isn't related this this video but I never knew Leeds royal armory in the UK (the city next to my home city) had a private section full of firearms for professional research. I only knew about the publicly accessable part.
At least now I know where my very first stop during the zombie apocalypse should be.
That 1909 is a beautiful handgun
I'm on a horse and don't want a two handed mag release, I'd rather just have it pop out and fall to the ground. Oh, takes a second hand to load the new mag anyway? I'd still rather throw my empty on the ground.
There used to be a lanyard loop on the mags, IIRC.
@@mrkeogh You can see it at 6:34.
There was a lanyard loop on the magazines, so it will just dangle somewhere on your side once dropped.
Also, you can partially reholster your pistol, or wedge it somewhere, insert a new magazine, draw the pistol again, and then drop the slide.
Not ideal, but definitely doable, and not too unsafe.
(And the pistol also has a lanyard, so you can't really lose it during such a wonky one-handed reload either)
I daresay those mag lanyard loops were rarely used in actual calvary combat conditions. I can see how the lanyard string would easily get in the way/tangled up on horseback while trying to aim and shoot. Some trials ordinance officer undoubtedly thought it was a good idea so as not to lose mags ($$$), but probably never was really used.
MKR RKM During the Pancho Villa expedition there were accounts of cavalry leaving behind trails of empty magazines so yeah I doubt lanyards were really used in combat.
I don't quite follow, when did the cavalry remove the demand for a loaded chamber indicator?
Jack Westlin I think yesterday with the 1907 model he mentioned in the cavalry report they didn’t think it did it’s job and was useless, might be wrong.
@@stevepirie8130 cheers, I'll have to rewatch the previous video. To be clear I'm not arguing the rational of the feature I just noticed it missing.
Until he mentioned it I’d never known what it was on our pistols 😎
A great series on a legendary firearm! Wish I liked shooting them more than I do.
Story time with Ian
5:17 xD yeah grip safety
He was trying to do the trick where you depress the grip safety with the hammer.
The acid test seems a bit bizarre. How often would a soldier come into contact with acid?
bcbloc02 Probably more of a simulated aging test than a “let’s see what happens when we dunk this in acid” test
*Vietnam* "Ahem..."
*Project* *MK* *Ultra* *wants* *to* *know* *your* *location*
Fascinating video, one of the best this plague year.
Thanks for makin
I have a Combat Commander, the "little brother" of the 1911, and I absolutely love it. Never a malfunction, except for an occasional stovepipe when using lower-power budget (read "cheap") ammo for target practice. My motto is ".45 ACP, because having to shoot the perp twice is silly."
Thank you, good little series
Wow! Very strict quality control, the 1911 is a great pistol indeed, obviously it’s, in practical terms, a little outdated for the modern warfare and security standards, but it keeps that seal of quality, precision and utility. 👍🏻 a great gun, very appreciated in it’s .38 Super caliber version here in México.
Very inspirational! The dude failed 10 times, and got up 11. All he needed was to not give up and succeed once.
Hope everybody’s safe, y’all
The problem was he saw the problems before the Army did, As Ian noted by the time one set of trials were over Browning already had a new one or two for the Army to try out.
Also he succeeded multiple times before that point. Look JMBs biography as there is a reason why he his considered the greatest arms designer in history even by today's standards.
That was a great history lesson
Always a fascinating subject. I can't remember much about the Savage entry. Was it a scaled up verion of their M1907 .32 ACP? Was it blowback? I seem to recall the Savage 32 was one of the first to have the recoil spring around the barrel. Amazing what a difference the small change to the grip angle makes. It is a whole different gun. That earlier locking system was odd. Never seen that before. Thanks for the lessons. Great video as always. Thank you.
Great Video! Thank You For Sharing. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Nice history and better looking pistol.
Nice One and Fascinating/Interesting! Cheers
This make me want the C&Arsenal episode to come out even more now...
I don't know, man. I don't see this working or being sold much... but I will watch to the end any ways since your videos are usually good.
;-P
Do a video on those Rhodesian short shorts!
6000 rounds and no malfunctions.
I like that firearm better now even though I have never fired one.
Nice always been a fan of the 45 auto. Even with all these modern and modular handguns we have today the 1911 is still for me one of the nicer handguns to fire. I owned a few Glocks over the years, and a Para Ordnance at one time but the single stack 1911 is it.
I think I know where that stimulus check is going, to support a local small business, my local gun shop.
A very interesting video, thanks. This is absolute proof of evolution, you can see how natural selection and random mutations over time led to the beloved 1911. Wait! whats that - there was a designer?
All hail John Browning!
I love the 1911 good fun gun not huge magazine capacity but i still love it
Someone is going to own some nice pieces of history...
Very interesting. Thanks for putting this on your show. Good writing, photography or I guess videography and speaking clearly and logically. I really enjoy watching the Forgotten Weapons. I wish the process of picking military weapons today was as demanding today as it was back in the day. It seems like committees who know nothing about the science involved are demanding all in one and modular weapons that can't seem to be vest of class. It seems like there always has to be a compromise. I think that is why the A-10 ground support aircraft is so popular. It is being upgraded and is still outstanding in its class.
Contrary to what you may have heard the M-17 actually proved way superior in testing then the old M9. The Army does infact put new hardware through the ringer. Glock simply sued because they are Glock and everyone loves Glock. Such is their lack of ingenuity that the now infamous Glock 44 is being beaten by a cheaper and better .22 built by Taurus no less.
The M-17 did need some fixing and today the M-17A1 is a very reliable and accurate pistol.
best storytime ever
Great info as always.
What was the history on those individual guns? That had to be a great story too.
What was the incentive for putting the extractor inside? In the hipower he didn't retain that idea
Probably to avoid patent infringement. Browning sold his 1911 patent to Colt, so when he designed the Hi-Power for FN, he had to avoid using anything from the 1911.
Congrats Gun Jesus for finding the beautiful 1910 because that's one of the 2 rarest variations of the 1911 [The other being the Singer 1911]. In the end, the story of the 1911 since 2014 is fulfilled :)
Nice history lesson.
You can reload it with one hand as well. You put the gun in the holster you take a full magazine you put it into the gun and then if the slide is forward you merely put the recoil plug against the saddle horn and rack the slide. If the slide is back you just push the slide release with your thumb or index finger. Ford Rangers from you and it was designed that way so the cavalryman could reload the firearm with one hand. Beatitude vintage of the thumb safety is that means that you don't have any need to put the hammer down, because that's dangerous as well. The firearm is designed to be carried with the hammer cocked.
I recently got a hell of a lot of grief at a job I was doing for carrying my firearm exactly the way John Moses Browning prescribes. The man claimed to be a Firearms instructor and told me that in no uncertain terms is that firearm ever to be carried in that matter. I told him to stop drinking or I would throw him out of the venue. Because if he did know anything about 1911 he had no business opining on the damn thing.
Go ahead, laid out for us, or me. I always thought you were supposed to carry it and condition one, cocked and locked, but I'm recently hearing a wave of arguments that that is not the case, but I guess it's supposed to be carried on the half cock notch?
@@nichevo1 half-cock is a dangerous way to carry it. Not only because that half-cock Notch is subject to breakage if you drop the firearm on its hammer and causes it to go off who-knows-where. But it also can't be fired from that condition without reaching with your thumb and very awkwardly trying to con to hammer at anytime of what you can inadvertently not get it cocked or as you're trying to take hold of the weapon inadvertently fire it. Cocked and locked is the mechanism by which it was designed to be carried. There are three functions and sometimes four functions that the thumb safety provides to keep the firearm from firing without taking it off. There are three or four functions that the grip safety provides that keeps the fire alarm from going off before you have a proper grip on it or have applied it in any other way. The firearm is designed to be exactly safe, and only perfectly safe when it is cocked and locked, when it is loaded. There is no safe way to put the hammer on to half cock or uncock the firearm because you have a round in the chamber while you're messing with the firearm in a method that is not a part of the way to handle the firearm. The only reason you can see that the hammer is cocked is because it is not a shrouded Hammer. Almost all firearms that do not have shrouded hammers are usually caught for decades before they ever invented the first double action single action weapon. Which is just adding complexity to a firearm that doesn't need it. The way you use a firearm is to train with that firearm and carry it properly.
If you are concerned about it oh, and you wish to carry a Browning design firearm. Get the Browning Hi Power and have the fast actions system put on to it. What that does is when you put the safety on it drops the hammer and when you take the safety off a tree Cox the hammer. But that does add complexity to the firing mechanism. Otherwise when people who don't know what the hell they're talking about inquire about it just tell them that's the way this firearm is designed according to this designer John Moses Browning. Surprisingly John Moses Browning was a very well-read individual. He also happened to be a high priest. He had worked as a mercenary to learn more about firearms and he is the most prolific Firearms designer in world history. I think that you can take his word on how to carry it.
The military had eventually adopted a method of loading the firearm and never putting around into the chamber requiring you to rack the slide. There is a way to do that and be fairly quick about putting the firearm into action but it does require both hands. And you're not always sure you're going to have both hands available to the firearm when you need it. John Moses Browning was also a huge advocate of understanding that safety is between the ears of the operator. That's it!
this was wonderful, thanks