I used Hannibal's Tactics from the Battle of Cannae
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- čas přidán 7. 06. 2024
- I've had some success using real life military tactics in a few recent videos, but this one gave me a run for my money! Hannibal was a genius at the battle of Cannae and his use of the inverted crescent formation was an incredible feat! In this video, we'll cover my best attempts to make this tactic work in Mount and Blade 2 Bannerlord.
0:00 - Intro
0:11 - Control Test
1:04 - 1st Real Battle
5:58 - 2nd Real Battle
12:03 - Final Thoughts
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The reason Cannae happened the way it did was that in the previous battles against Hannibal the roman Infantry punched a hole through the center of the line and was basically their only success. So the Romans doubled down on that strategy and deliberately deployed in a deep formation on an otherwise wide-open battlefield. Also, tactics play out differently when battles have 100,000 men compared to 2,000.
Yeah that's a good point, I couldn't get the AI to bunch up like that. And having more than 1k units on the field would be AMAZING! There was a mod in the past that went up to 2k, which is what I think the game's max limit is
@@Strat-Guides Would be nice to see you do a battle with that mod. I definitely couldn't do it with my puny PC
@@bergonius I've been trying to find a version that isn't 6+ patches out of date, but no luck :(
@@Strat-Guides still a fun battle to watch. Hanni did have other things going for him as well, sparing the talk about food, rome's slow response and other details, he had battlefield advantages you dont, like elephants and maybe i missed the part where you had your heavy seasoned vets on the ends, and the weak troops in the middle, but his flanks held because they were his best men, his middle held because he was there. And he didn't have to ride around and give orders, he had a command structure that did that with his orders in mind. Still, a fun idea and fun execution.
@@Strat-Guides You know, having a buddy help you plan out/perform battles would be pretty cool.
Historically accurate! Generals for millennia have tried copying the double-envelopment at Cannae, with the vast majority of them failing and losing the battle in the process. Pretty hard to reproduce bipolar Roman leadership in the field during that campaign, in real life and apparently in simulation as well!
I totally understand why it fails now lol it's so hard to pull off!
@@Strat-Guides it is harder if both sides have the same number of soldiers, or if the other side has very disciplined soldiers, the enemy commander could gather an elite force to make a way through the encirclement, or just push in one direction, since your encirclement became thin from the formation/tactic that you're using.
This tactic would work
1.if the number of soldiers of both sides reaches 10 thousand or more, because it would be hard for the enemy's commander to see the whole battlefield, and in turn, the enemy commander wouldn't notice that they're getting surrounded, and getting mauled behind.
2. if the soldiers of the other side are not experienced soldiers, flanking enemy troops could easily demoralize as they've been surrounded and feel outnumbered.
3. If the soldiers that you're using to hold or surround the enemies are skilled enough not to get pushed back by sheer numbers
In conclusion, this deadly, but risky tactic need a very skilled commander and right situation to execute. If I was a commander/general at the time, I would only use this tactic if I want to completely annihilate the enemies.
Cyrus did succeed tho
@@johnkenneth9293 One of the advantages of Hannibal was that the roman commanders exposed themself by leading the cavalry. As far as i remember both were killed during the initial charges of Hannibals Cavalry.
@@kushagrakumarmishra2509 Many did, famously Rehnskiöld pulled it off at Fraustadt as well. None the less, anecdotes do not replace empirical evidence.
In battle of Cannae Hannibal has placed his most elite troops on left and right flank. Despite being outnumbered the've defeated the romans facing them, before collapse of the center and then turned back to help them (the center) with cavalry and light infantry. Maybe if you had strengthened the flanks instead of making them just like the center, this tactic would have worked in Bannerlord. Great video, love your "military tactics in Bannerlord" content.
I can definitely try that out! I don't think I loaded up the on the flanks in any of my testing
@@Strat-Guides could be worth having a unit of shock troops behind each wing on the front line to help mop up the flanks before encasing the army. Issue is their'll probably still poke through the middle I suppose
Could also use some cavalry as disturbance on the flanks
not sure if i agree, the most important thing is that the romans got all drawn into the center coz that was where the enemy was giving ground,
best way to simulate this in bannerlord would be to start out with threelinds behind eachother so the enemy will focus the center, and then when they start to flank you to get your flanks out to defend them. this way the majority of the ai will still be in the center
These historical formation videos are awesome, keep 'em coming please.
Glad you like them!
Just got into Bannerlord recently after it came out on Consoles. As the game does a mediocre job of explaining anything, i gravitated towards CZcams for help and inspiration and i have to say, i became a huge fan of your content Strat.
Keep doing what you're doing man - greetings from Germany!
I'm glad my videos have been helpful :D Guten tag!
Yes, it’s very much a “figure it out yourself” kind of game. It’s a pretty steep learning curve, but the satisfaction of grinding your enemies in to dust after getting over that hump is totally worth it.
You go from a ragtag little band of farmers running away from equal sized groups of bandits, and end the game at the head of 1000’s of troops, washing over the land like a glacier
Be aware alot of these tactics dont work that well without realistic battle mod
it is easy to suggest something. but i suggest something. make left and right cav strong. avoid using f1+f3 with cav. just move upon enemy. moving back is to ruin enemy cohesion. i used few formations from CZcams, two of them had worked. i dont know Hannibal used luring& confusing or not (or archers). but you can do it with cav. cav is fast to face enemy, enemy must face to protect themselves. but you take back cav without charge. this gives chance to your archers to shoot unshielded enemy if you confuse enemy from behind. especially if enemy chase cav , that looks like manipulating your enemy. but that is bot.
even your left or right cav is strong , keep one without fighting. just lure enemy around. you will may need that cav to help some part of your army. arrow formation gathers enemy into one point (i think so...)).
use center like arrow with two infantry group.
dont stop cav , move them upon enemy and get back them to hit enemy again according to you situation).
have a good time
finally someone tested Hannibal formation. i had deleted bannerlord.
this kind of works when you micromanage the center a lot. you need to give constant move orders in order to get them to walk backwards while still facing the enemy with their shield, try giving them orders every 2-3 ft of distance behind them. it works very nicely with troops that have large shields since they can also prevent missiles from hitting their extremities.
Yeah for sure, it's a tough one to pull off because it requires a lot of micro! A bit above my paygrade I'm afraid lol
@@Strat-Guides Maybe treat it like a refused flank, where you have a token force in the center to bait the enemy, and just continually retreat before contact. Meanwhile your flanks are extra strength. Avoid the main battle in the center, while defeating the flanks in detail. Then surround the main force, now with more even numbers.
Perhaps have archers take the place of infantry in the center, since you have no intention of standing to fight. Heaviest infantry on the flanks, and cav combined attack.
Then again, simulations don't work as well because AI doesn't care about dying or being tired or hungry, and has perfect communication and visibility. And the Romans were pretty damn stupid when it came to tactics in that particular battle, and a lot of battles against Hannibal. Figures when you are led by politicians. :D
hinibal stayed personaly in the center to lead it so
Seeing these historical tactics implemented from an on the ground view is incredible. Would you ever consider trying to recreate the tactics used by steppe armies like the feigned retreat?
Thanks for watching! Yeah for sure, I have a couple ideas on the list that might work in that regard :)
@@Strat-Guides I think feigned retreat only works if you have an exhaustion mechanic. As far as I understood, the Mongols would fake retreat for 4 or 5 days on horseback and then overwhelm the exhausted enemy formations. I've only played the bannerlord predecessors so maybe there is such a thing?
Great video! Hannibal was a genius for pulling this off as you mentioned
Unfortunately we can't used the sun to our advantage to fully simulate Hannibal's double envelopment. Hannibal at Cannae positioned his troops in such a way that the sun was at his back and shining directly into the eyes of the Roman soldiers, which significantly hampered their ability to see and fight effectively.
Thanks! Oh interesting, I didn't know that!
Keep doing what your doing man! Appreciate your content 🔥
I appreciate that!
One other commonly forgotten thing about Cannae- the Carthaginian soldiers were, at the time, veterans, well trained and well equipped, and seasoned from the battles at Trasimene and the Terbia. The Romans were mostly raw recruits, drafted and handed arms and armor, as the majority of the trained Romans were dead from the previous 2 major battles.
Not only 2 in battles. Scipio also took 2 legions to spain and another 2 legions was marching to the gauls which was unfortunately ambushed half way through.
So basically rome lost more than 12 legions in first two years of the war. 8 in cannae, 2 in trasimene, 2 in silva litana. This doesnt include heavily damaged legions that was defeated but survived. 12 legions out of more than 20 legions. That was as many as 60,000 roman soldiers dead and another 60,000 more allied armies. Again this doesnt include casualties from other defeated but surviving legions.
@@linming5610 I was talking about Hannibal alone, I'm pretty sure those were the work of his brothers.
@@jeremiasvonsiebner5540 I just like tallying and mentioning the numbers to help visualize the odds rome was facing.
@@linming5610I don't think it was the Romans who were facing the odds here my guy....
@@astrosherlock374 They do even with naval superiority, they nearly buckled under pressure. Losing nearly or more 60,000 men in two years from population of more than 200,000 citizens(adult males) in city and countryside of rome is not a simple matter. Of course this doesn't include slaves and colonial population from other regions Romans migrated. But even with that they are facing heavy odds that's why they embarked in mass conscription instead of usual volunteers and even conscripting slaves to fight. City of Rome provided most of the soldiers that's why it was said Rome lost around 20% of its adult male population after cannae.
It was theorised they raised as many as more than 10% of their entire population to fight in 2nd punic. They roughly have a solid rule on about a million people from both Roman and allied states that can bear arms. This percentage of people under arms was never again seen until industrial age where confederate states raised as many as 20% of its white population to fight in civil war.
Geez, the level of quality in each of these videos is just crazy. Well done.
I appreciate that :)
Hannibal is my favorite general in history, and the fact that Hannibal was able to pull of this strategy succesfully is the most amazing part of everything. From the start of his campaign he was able to flawlessly exploit the flanks of his enemies, all of which outnumbered him, it took a genius on equal measure to finally defeat him, Scipio's victory and all other Hannibal victories are what I believed shaped the way war was approached in coming years, all the way up to the medieval ages
Nice video I was waiting a while for it!
Glad you enjoyed!
Thankyou for all your hard work and great content!
Glad you enjoy it!
I think it goes to show how incredible it really was
I must have lost over 50 battles trying to get this to work and it was SO hard to manage everything that was going on. I can't imagine doing it back then when messages took a long time to get relayed, so it's really impressive he could pull off such a complex maneuver in those times.
@@Strat-Guides it really was, even if you had lieutenants helping the battle, being able to predict what would happen and then also when it would happen, relay that message and get it right is just incredible.
“I really dont know how this guy pulled this off” That was funny af 😂
One other side of it: my understanding is that Hannibal's flanking troops were both hidden and ignored.
So in Total War, with hiding mechanics and the IA being willing to ignore troops to favor a target, this works. But with my interactions in Bannerlord, troops are troops to the IA. It does not prioritize any particular formations or enemy type. Plus you can't hide troops...
Lol yeah the AI can see everything in the map at all times and just attacks the closest enemy. Hax!
Really entertaining video yet again!
Thanks for watching!
im obsessed with your videos. I wish I had the skill in banner lord that you have to execute such fun!
Thanks for watching! I'm not sure it's worth the 4k+ hours I've spent playing Bannerlord haha
After seeing a few of your videos I had to search for this. This is definitely my favorite battle and I really want to try and pull it off in game.
Great content! I too recently started to experiment with real life battle tactics, and today I tried a rather unusual one, the Ottoman wagon battle tactic. However it was extremely hard to pull off as the game doesn't have wagons to enable wagon fortresses in front of my center line, instead I dismounted my horse archers in front of my center line and the horses were enough obstacle for my archers to just devastate the enemy center while my other mounted units kept them off the flank of my center line. Again, it is extremely hard to implement, but I would love to see your take on a similar tactic.
That's a really interesting idea, I'll have to try that out sometime!
Do your horses not run away after being hit by something? I’ve utilized horses in a similar way, usually the enemy horses, but they don’t really stay for very long because they run off as soon as they receive damage.
Awesome video like always 🎉 love the videos
Thanks!!
Great to see a contributor who uploads the tactic that didn't work as well as the ones that did. You learn so much more! If an army loses, but inflicts heavier casualties on the enemy, there is something to take away from that. It's a question of assessing the benefits of quantity and quality.
Yeah for sure, It's tough to keep the flanks when the numbers are that thin. And it just proves how incredibly important terrain is for close battles like these!
cool
Great graphics and explanation my man
Thanks!!
your tactic videos are helping me win impossible battles
i managed to win a 4:1 fight thanks to your videos man
That's what I like to hear!!
what specific tactic did you use for that fight? I'm curious
@@algorix8420 i used the tactics he used in the video where he uses realistic tactics
and alexander the great's
Finally! I know this vid took you more effort than you expected, but I've gotta say that this series is fantastic and you are absolutely killing it
Thank you, I appreciate that! Although for some reason people aren't clicking on this video. I'll try a couple different TN and see what works
@@Strat-Guides yeah i think the other thumbnails have more of that "algo-click-bait-iness" quality to them, I would stick with what works! Also the titles of the others were better "I used X to DOMINATE Y" is more algo-friendly. Maybe this one could be "I used Hannibals INSANE tactics from the Battle of Cannae" or something like that. Good luck!
@@nowaynowaynottoday the problem I'm having is the tactic failed and I'm trying to avoid the click bait lol we'll see. I'll let this one run for a day or two. Thanks for the chat!!
That’s a really good strategic tactical advantages you’ve given.
Tactics that worked in a clash of 100 thousand + men, will not work the same in battles of a few hundred/thousands. Although there was a huge numbers difference, there was also a huge quality difference, Hannibal had veterans of many campaigns with looted armour and weapons, versus mostly raw recruits, probably with basic gear.
That's true, it's harder to emulate since my lines were not enough to cover their lines and I was already single file lol
Need more of these please
I bet Hannibal had experienced Captains assigned to his formations! ;)
Looks like you really need rts command mod for this as well as the pause/slow mo feature to command the troops more effectively.
Lol that's definitely true!
The strength of the inverted crescent is not in your infantry enveloping your enemy's infantry, it's in controlling the coverage of their shields. By lining up in that way, all your shields will be pointed toward their skirmishers. As they fill in to meet your lines, the right half of their line will have their backs to your skirmishers behind the left side of your line, and mirror that for the other side. Hannibal made extensive use of slingers, and those slingers would focus of the soldiers towards the flank of each side. He also had an almost 2:1 cavalry advantage, which again he would use to defeat any soldiers trying to flank, as soldiers enveloping your line will have their backs turned to your cavalry. Once the flanks are won, then the enveloping happens to seal a catastrophic victory, but the battle was already won by that point.
There was another battle which Hanibal won with this tactic and there center collapsed Romans chased them 4 kilometers away and missed time when flanks were destroyed.
So you need to strengthen flanks and make center easy target.
And try to make gaps between flanks and center so formations would be far away and enemy would need to stretch more.
And you need ranged units in center to lure enemy in.
Commenting for the algorithm. Keep up the good work
Much appreciated :D
I think taleworlds should work on the ai moral because they fight brutally even if you killed there commander or flanking them they will charge not like in other games like total war when you flak the troops in total war there moral break's and start fleeing or killing there commander they will flee too
I agree! The only units that flee consistently now are the looters lol
@@Strat-Guides true lol
Yeah, to balance that, the troops of the enemy commander focuses on defending their commander.
I've found that I can get their morale to break faster when you kill a lot of people very quickly. Battania has significant weaknesses, but inflicting huge damage is a specialty of theirs with their archers and falxes, so I've pushed the enemy into retreat by wiping out huge numbers of them in a short period of time.
Of course, there might have been other factors at play and I'm talking out of my ass, but it's been my experience that a flanking maneuver with falxmen + two formations of archers on both flanks, all deployed at the right time, will quickly push any enemy into retreat.
I think the only reason they won’t do that is that your own troops would be susceptible to that as well. It would result in a much higher skill floor, which is already pretty high as it is. A lot of people would be turned off by that feature because they wouldn’t understand why their troops just give up and run away.
You should have libyans posted behind fhe left and right flank. They would help catch the units that roll around the edge of the line while you pull back the center and the troops equalize.
I think another reason it doesn't work in Bannerlord is that your troops keep turning away from the enemy when ordered to move back and expose themselves.
Yeah they turn their backs to the enemy - not the brightest idea lol
@@Strat-Guides You can set it to face enemy and they'll back step I believe. Maybe not.
Great attempt!
Thanks! It was a humbling experience to say the least lol
That tactic was only used successfully 6 times in history for a reason
Yeah I can see why! It was really tough
@@Strat-Guides Hannibal at the Battle of Cannae
-Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed at the Battle of al-Walaja against the persians sometime around 633
-Alp Arslan at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071
-the Battle of Mohács by Süleyman the Magnificent in 1526
by Field Marshal Carl Gustav Rehnskiöld at the Battle of Fraustadt in 1706.
It's because any form of a fighting retreat is hard to perform. That's why it's so impressive to have done and won with.
I was waiting for this since you mentioned It. I do love total war hystoric battles, and this battle is a nightmare at rome 2. The only way to beat it is luring, baiting and skirmishing the AI from behind for about 1hour or so. No way to make It without exploiting the AI. No wonder why Hannibal is regarded as the greatest general rome Empire has ever fought.
Lovely stuff. Also for the past reference but also for how you explain. I love the schemes at the beginning, it's not much used, it should be used more.
I also love to know what you are clicking especially as I play no HUD so I wanna know what you are doing. You use F7 to tell to go somewhere so you click left mouse button after f7 to tell to go there here etc.. and also you say f1 f 5
Great vid!
Thank you!
You're missing the fact that the two Consuls Paullus and Varro had completely different ideas of how to fight hannibal. Varro needed a victory so his populist buddies could get elected next year, and Paullus was listening to previous consul Fabius and wanted to deny Hannibal of a decisive battle
That's really interesting! I wish stuff like that made it's way into games. I'm not sure how you would do it, but there are so many non-combat factors that decided many people's fate. Pretty interesting stuff!
@@Strat-Guides Yeah, that's what I love about games like this and Total War, is trying to visualize our human history.
Another great vid!
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@Strat-Guides Hannibal's strats were OP. I watch for these videos right here, lol.
It's funny to see shit not work out without the perfect conditions.
It would have worked better if Bannerlord had a "pull back" order. If you look closer, you'd see that when you're pulling back your troops by "move" order some of the soldiers tend to turn their backs on the enemy and get shredded. Also this method requires micromanaging their new position.
So yeah, I _really_ miss "advance/pull back ten paces" orders from Warband.
Yeah it's not a good idea to turn your back on the enemy shield wall lol gotta love the AI
Idk if you've seen the video by Spartan Gaming about How to Chamber block but he does an excellent guide and it seems like a mechanic you'd get a lot of enjoyment out of mastering.
I actually made a full combat guide over a year ago and have a pretty big section on it in this video: czcams.com/video/m6Xq48Ok6oY/video.html&ab_channel=StratGaming
Ok, I didn't notice it at that time but I actually managed to recreate the tactic used here to some degree in one of my previous campaigns (note: i always do meme/half-serious campaigns, always involving console commands at certain points and did this with RTS Camera, MLWarband and without RBM).
I had 4 infantry or archer lines with one as reserves and 1 cavalry and 1 (or 2) horse archers. As the enemy infantry get closer, center line pulls back and move the flanks to where I make a triangle with the enemy inside it then close in. In case of reinforcements, I peel off one line and replace it with the reserves, then rinse and repeat. My mounted units will either be guarding my flanks or harassing the enemy archers and stragglers. In case of enemy cavalry, I quickly form tight squares, then form back to lines or shield wall once they're dealt with. Worked against Empire and Sturgia, (works with Battania as well until I was outnumbered 3:1), then 1.1.0 happened before I could try it out against the rest.
please tell me, how do you draw such battle schemes and what program do you use? I will be very grateful
Thanks for doing this, I know it would be hard, it's hard to do it even in Total War, my actual PC can't run bannerlord but in Rome 2 Total War I was able to to something similar to Cannae, the flanks should engage first (after the cav cause you need the cav to flank the enemy infantry) so when the enemy start to battle your center they already are flanked, what I see in AI games is, the IA try to concentrate power in one flank, so it's hard to make them charge everything in the center. I believe it's worth to retry Cannae after all the tips you had in the comments, another formations you could try is roman triplex acies and oblique order.
this is a stunning look for your player
Thanks! I picked out a custom outfit from Open Source Armory for him :)
I’ve used this in Total War too, it’s surprisingly effective.
U should do two lines in the center, first line would make contact and fall back, while the second line would soften the blow thus stabilizing the line. And giving it that nice crescent shape for the hammer to hit home
I now want to see someone pull off this truly S-tier tactic, a true master of the click and drag
It's beyond my skill level unfortunately
nice vid! would be cool as well if you tried out mongol tactics like envelopment and feint retreat followed by shock cav charging unorganized enemy lines
I've got that on the list to try out soon! Thanks for watching :)
There are also two hidden reserve on the flanks that when the gap of the center line and the flank lines widen the hidden flank reserve attack
5:42 Gaius Varro simply went F1-F3 that’s how Hannibal pulled it off but dumb jokes aside it didn’t work here because lines 2&3 weren’t good enough bait to pull them in.
You may want to set it up exactly how you did in the control to get the spacing correct then after make 2&3 move forward a lot more and a bit spaced out in a skein. Pull the enemy troops in so that they stack on on another like a hole in a siege wall as they chase the closes troops.
After falling back a few times have 2&3 get back into a line position as they fall back some more before the enemy gets there. Then be quicker sandwiching them.
Even if the Calvary aren’t finished you may want them to do charging sweeps like a pendulum to complete the tactic. Eating away at both sides behind the enemy until the tactic can work as normal like in your control
Edit: side note for bannerlord mechanics you may want to locate the enemy leader(s) & kill them immediately with Calvary for moral drops & coherence
the only problem is the thinner you make the center the less the AI wants to attack it
@@nukesomething5518 what I was saying was have them more pronounced & a LOT closer to the enemy troops then once the enemy is close to them pull back, stop. Pull back, stop. Pull back, shield wall & then proceed with the original plan.
The enemy will definitely bite on troops within a 100 yards or so in front of them to chase
I'd love to see a recreation of lake trasmine.
I don't think I have that one on my list, I'll add it now :D
Ba'al Hamon be praised :) The envelopment of a larger army by a smaller one is truly legendary stuff.
I think we tried this tactic in one of the Calradic Campaign MP events. I don't remember if it was successful or not. MP battles are a whole different beast. I think the biggest flaw is Bannerlord's difficulty in micromanaging formation orders on the ground. You could do in the control test because you were in RTS mode and could just micro everything without having to run back and forth with your character.
Wow that's cool! I'm curious to see how the MP results turned out. I spent a long time running the tests in RTS mode, but the only way I could get it to work was to lower the enemy's troop quality down to the point where it didn't matter what you did, F1 + F3 would win and with better results.
Great job on the video, nice touch with using open source armory(that camel armor is great) and correct heraldics!
i have a suspicion that with bigger numbers it would work, and rts camera would really help
P.S since the 1.10, rts camera is broken and keep crashing the game, do you have the same trouble?
Thanks! Yeah I was trying to get the mod to increase unit cap to 2k but it doesn't work for these latest patches.
I've been on 1.0.3 so I'm not sure, but upgrading to 1.1.0 this weekend
@@Strat-Guides aww, thats a shame. thats a big problem with games in develeopment, so much stuff going broken after updates
Looks like a tricky maneouvre to pull off.
Only thing I could suggest is having the centre slightly further forward to bait the AI to cluster around them allowing you to flank a bit more easily. Once their infantry got around your sides it was basically over.
But even then, slowly pulling units back would be necessary and I don't know how effective the AI is at staged withdrawal as a concept let alone in programming.
It was really hard! I spent a whole week running tests and practicing but no matter what I tried, it was just too much. If I made the enemy troops really low quality, it worked (but doesn't count because F1 + F3 worked in that case too lol)
Wiki has a good breakdown of the battle and has little gifs that show how the battle played out. You acrually need a second cav unit to watch the left also.
Yeah it's tough because of the limited size of the battle - 1000 units in total. I was trying to find a mod that increased the unit limit, but they all stopped working 12+ months ago and have not been updated :(
@@Strat-Guides oh I know the struggle. I've been wanting to play bannerking mod but I think imma have to go back a few patches.
@@Strat-Guides hey strat, I've been trying to run banner kings and I've got no clue what I'm doing. Do you have a video on installing it and what version to run bannerlord on? Or can you point me in the right direction. I've been asking in comments because Google was not very helpful but I've yet to get a response. You are really responsive to your community and I was hoping you could help.
Late, and i know others pointed out the numerous other advantages Hannibal took full use of for the battle, but the most important that i think could still work in game is how he arranged the flanks and his center. Instead of spreading the entire line out only 1 row deep like in the video, the flanks should be deeper while the center is thin. But not only deeper, they should also be filled with the best troops, while your weakest are in the center.
The whole idea is that the center is forced to give ground through sheer overwhelming force thus being pushed inward to form a shape like this "
Look at last halloween in korea there was a stamped where a bunch of people died. the crowd was so bunched up no one could move, they were all fallen down and tangled up with each other, some held in a standing position. From what i heard battle of Cannae was kinda like that, tens of thousands of people bunched up and helpless except at cannae there was of course an enemy methodically executing them. Some soldiers were apparently so smothered by their allies they couldnt swing their sword. It would be horrific.
Great analogy! I remember seeing that, very sad but also an excellent example of what happens when a huge mob loses control
so understanding what happened is pretty difficult with current games. first the method of fighting for undisciplined troops versus disciplined isn't modeled well in any game i have played. when you are disciplined you can keep awareness of where the rest of your line is and so with stepping forwards and back to deliver thrusts results in a rather fluid line the less disciplined you are. this means that less disciplined troops allow gaps to happen and for local flanking to happen. few armies used local leadership, and so the undisciplined tended to do what bannerlord does and wrap around the flanks when they can, but they don't fall back slowly as they defend attacks. Romans had local leadership, so they could do what Bannerlord does, holding firm and then wrapping around to exploit gaps. this means that a weak line won't stretch, which is key to this strategy. also you might need to customize your own troops to get the flanks correct, as the flanks were super heavy hoplites, with long spears allowing them to fight several ranks deep. this means that the line naturally bulged in the center, and he dove into battle in the center to firm it up when it was at the breaking point. most of this would happen naturally based on the battle set up, you just need to have some balls during the execution to dive into the middle the enemy and get surrounded so your own forces want to try and save you and can also see their move backwards. the strategy AI also doesn't try to punch holes, so they don't pack men to any one area on the line, so that might be another bit of modding to make it possible in game.
for the center you might need faster lighter troops in order to get them moving back faster. you probably also need to issue the command earlier than your second attempt. you might try square formations on the sides for the gaps that happen due to falling back, though 2 of the sides won't get used (and thus wastes men when you are already outnumbered). or maybe overlapping formations (so 2 formations to form the two sides of a square for the side formations, with people set to stand in the same spots). in the end it would be cool to pull off, but probably too much work.
I'm curious if you'll play as Hannibaal with the Eagle Rising mod since you've finished with Timur?- I'll also recommend "My Little Warband" for some extra fun perhaps
I'm planning on a Eagle Rising campaign at some point! I tried My Little Warband for the next campaign, but it kept crashing so I had to remove it :( Sadly I spent 5+ hours building out an entire troop tree but had to throw it all out
The units playing the libyans should have had javs as that was a common weapon of hannibles libyans troops and was used to great effect as he pulled back his center exposing the sides of the roman center which led them to getting peppered before being crushed.
Yeah javelins would have been amazing in this situation!
One thing a lot of people tend to forget is that the Romans beaten at Cannae were far from the later legions conquering for the Empire. In fact, Cannae was one reason for having significant changes in the way the Roman military worked.
That's a great point!
The complexity of Cannae would be difficult to program. Hannibal significantly outnumbered Roman Calvary on both flanks, but was massively outnumbered troop/infantry wise. Hannibal’s troops were battle hardened most having traveled through Europe with him. They also had 2 massive wins the 2 previous years vs the Roman’s. Varro’s troops were formed quickly and while great in number, were most likely short on experience. Hannibal’s most skilled troops were Numidian spearmen he positioned as the vise on the squeeze portion of his envelopment. The Roman’s not realizing they were positioned to fight east west while they pushed directly down the center. Their goal was to punch the middle then loop around the back. Their size hurt them as they got squeezed by a python built to fight pushing South but erre defending their east and west sides. Hannibal himself was positioned critically at the center of the line ensuring motivation for his troops to stop backing up “fake retreating” allowing his spearmen to begin their squeeze. Both of his Calvary wings won early allowing the rear of the Roman’s to be trapped. And the Roman Consul holding the right wings Calvary was taken out early by a sling rock causing confusion and lack of leadership to a roman Calvary wing. Varro himself was on the left Calvary and was routed retreating. Try to add all of this into a simulation and you’ll see the complexity of it all. The main source for my info was the book “the ghosts of Cannae”
Can you recreate the hit-run tactics of the Mongol cavalry in their conquest of Europe? I really like their strategy :3
I'm working on something like that this week :D
@@Strat-Guides Great ! Subscribed and ready to watch the latest video
I thinks it’s the fact as the middle gradually retreats they turn their backs to the enemy
Ahh, when Hannibal proved he wasn't all Barca, but also Bita.
Lol I don't even know what to say to that one :)
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but is it possible that, in the actual battle, the flanks of Hannibal's formation moved a little back as well whenever the Roman units tried to flank them (if they did), just at a slower speed than the center, in order to not get flanked? I mean, I don't think Hannibal told his flanks to never move from their initial spot even if they were about to be flanked/surrounded. Also, complex maneuvers are obviously much easier when multiple people are controlling them.
I don’t think it’s likely because the supposed conditions of the battlefield partially obscured Hannibal’s army. The Romans were unaware that they were going to be flanked, so they weren’t trying to outflank them. They relied on numerical superiority to crush the center and divide Hannibal’s line. Hannibal’s strategy at Cannae was very specific to the terrain of the battlefield and the type of army he was facing.
@@kolbywilliams7234 Yes, I'm not saying it's the case but I'm saying the commanders on the flanks probably had some freedom in deciding what to do, as long as they kept the positon in the overall formation. Strat was alone and couldn't keep an eye on the flanks while moving the center and preparing the envelopment.
I do table top wargaming and have for decades. I've never seen Rome lose this battle unless the odds were in Carthage's favour. The problems are:
1. The Romans concentrated on the centre and seem to have left their third line in camp.
2. The Roman general didn't know what he was doing.
3. The Roman and allied cavalry were "ok" troops, but outnumbered, and unsupported; and poorly lead. (It's a myth to say they were inferior)
4. The battle was miles/kilometres wide. One flank had no idea what the other was doing. (Another example of poor leadership)
5. Even Hannibal's poorest troops were veterans by now while the Roman first line were mostly raw troops (this is more a factor when they were pinned and didn't know how to respond since their training and doctrine required space and room to manoeuvre)
6. Even novice gamers know how to avoid slow moving envelopment - which was truly impressive, given the battle was so wide!
Hannibal didn't have to micro-manage the centre. In your simulation here, you can see the gaps and poor AI coordination of the individual troops let you down. Hannibal didn't have the same problem because that's how the Spanish and Celtic warriors in the centre knew how to fight. If you give a flank in BL, you lose troops pretty fast and this plan starts to fail. The basic tactic in BL does work, but you need a solid front, and a decent reserve on either flank to move around the enemy pinned to the shield wall.
Good video!
This is a really nice addition, thank you for taking the time to type all of this out! I've heard it explained before why Rome lost this battle, but your simple explanation made it very clear :)
I have a question can you control both sides in custom mode on Console because every time I play, I have to spawn in as a soldier
You need a mod for that and they don't have mod support on consoles (yet)
have you ever considered the Zulu Buffalo Horn tactic? it's like an aggressive version of this rather than defensive
I think what Hannibal did was had the stronger trooops on the flanks so that the Roman’s would punch a hole to the weaker troopers wihile Hannibal strong troops would surround them
Oh woops, I definitely didn't do that!
For these battle tactic videos, It would be magnificent if you could track the battle using a small window on the corner of the screen giving a full birds-eye view of the entire battle-field, instead of a first-person camera *only**
Yeah that would be cool! There is a way to record battles and play them back later but I wasn't able to figure it out. Sadly I would have to fight the battle twice to do that, but then it wouldn't be the same battle and RNG is pretty big with these large melee battles
The Roman weakness was their strength; they were trained to fight as a unit.
As the Carthaginian Center collapsed, Romans broke formations and charged through the gap.
The flanking and envelopment occured after all communication and cohesion has broken down in the Roman Center, which swelled with troops who should have stayed attacking Hannibals flanks.
The only way this could be replicated in game without micromanagement is if the AI Enemy was able to transfer units from the flanks to the buckling center. Because they can't, what you get is overwhelming force on the flanks, breaking the strategy.
Good point! Also the units being surrounded still fight as effectively as if they were the ones doing the flanking, which doesn't typically happen IRL
Love theses videos!! Mostly just commenting for the sake of commenting :D cheers to all the butter lords
I really appreciate that :D Lol It's almost harvesting season!
@@Strat-Guides you ever play the 1st mount and blade? Vladian heavy horsemen and butter = world domination even on the realistic setting.
@@sketty5069 not yet but I've been doing a lot of research on it the last few months. I'm planning on trying a WC for my first time playing the game so this is useful information :)
@@Strat-Guides I would watch a stream on a hot and dirty mount and blade campaign. Watch you learn how good you have it with banner lord ahahaha
Emperor of the Great Unknown is 100% right, plus you didnt have the negative effect of morale as you mentioned so it didnt look like it was going to work as the ai also seems to put more people on the flanks than center, but really cool to watch, definitely gives you more respect for someone who did that with tens of thousands of men across a massive battlefield. Is it possible for you to do these battles in multiplayer or coop mode? If you could get a couple of people to act as captains for you, it would be easier to command and could do bigger battles too
I would love to try this out in a MP setting - still waiting on a mod that allows that though :(
Thats a shame, but something to look forward to. Meanwhile you could consider the Total War games as well to recreate battles and can have up to 4 people on each side. Me and my mates use to do battles were 3 of us would control most of the army and the 4th guy was the general giving orders to rest of us, was good fun
It would be a good feature to have the AIs morale deterioriate (significantly) faster when they are enveloped, like in Medieval Total War (I don't know if all of them have this feature but the ones I played had it).
@10:45 I think if you pivoted left and right flank inward, it might give ur men more advantage. Also I think the elite carthaginian troops attacked from the flanks. It might also be possible to bait the roman center far, far away from the flanks, forcing them to give chase, and destroy the lighter roman flanks, which is the same thing that happened in Cannae.
Also I feel like your flanks were a bit too thin. But that map did suck for this tactic anyways.
Could you possibily try this with a mod that has realistic fighting with the morale and stuff, im pretty sure in one of your previous videos you talked about a mod that does that?
There are mods that make combat a bit more realistic, but none that adjust the morale (at least not that I've tried). I'll take a look though, that's a good idea you brought up
Well he also wasn’t ordering his men alone. He had commanders.
Very true, there's a lot going on! It's also much harder when you get to the scale he was commanding at - both size of the battlefield and number of troops
@@Strat-Guides yeah that’s for sure. Battlefields must’ve been a sight to see. Thanks for the reply! Keep up the awesome content.
I haven't played Bannerlord in a while. But do they have actual camel armor now? Or is it a mod?
Have you ever played any of the total war games? It's something similar to this but with thousands more of troops.
Cool video. I tried to use a schiltron as Battania to fight against Vlandian cavalry, but it went... badly, to say the least. I didn't have enough men to form a real or effective line (since I obviously wanted archers elsewhere) and was playing vanilla, which might have affected things further, so we just got disintegrated instantly, lol. Maybe I'll try again if I get into a bigger battle.
The key to having a strong square is making the walls as thick as you can! It's not the spears that devastate the cavalry, but the tightly packed formation that causes them to get stuck and picked apart. Try to put your archers inside the formation as well to help against the cavalry. Once the cav are dealt with, you should be able to get your archers out to the flanks fast enough to pour arrows into the enemy infantry. Not sure if that would have helped or not
@@Strat-Guides I'll definitely try that. I'm playing Battanian, so it's probably even odds the Fians are going to be the most effective part of the formation anyways, lol.
UPDATE: Tried it in a custom battle. It indeed worked great this time. Might have to use it again in the future.
I've been using the schiltron with success for the most part. But it's been a smaller scale with less than 120 infantry on my side.
What about the hidden Libyan reserve on both flanks? That part seemed pretty vital to the historical battle. Unless I'm confusing my history with another of Hannibal's battles against the Romans.
It's pretty hard to simulate with Bannerlord because the unit cap is so low :( 500 units for each side, so either formations have to be really small or extremely thin (1-rank deep) which ruins the simulation
@@Strat-Guides Fair enough. That's actually a great answer. I wasn't even expecting a response. Your videos are great btw. I suppose you could simulate it accurately in Total War Attila or Rome. I know that's been done before, and I know you focus on Bannerlord, but I'd say it's your commentary that really sets your channel apart. Among other things, but especially the fast-paced commentary and satire/sarcasm/humor. It adds a particular entertainment value to the general tips&tricks stuff. That's my own opinion anyway.
For perspective, I've probably spent nearly as much time watching your videos as I have actually playing Bannerlord (I've only just picked it up), but they're interesting videos to watch. Bannerlord has a ton of potential, but I think Total War is still king on the historical accuracy front. They're both great games though. I'm really interested to see where modders take Bannerlord.
@@roostercogburn3272 I try to get to most comments, but lately it's been hard to keep up! I appreciate the insight, it's interesting to hear. I'm a terrible consumer, so I try to not make judgements based on what I would do because if I did that I would probably ruin my channel haha Thanks for the info!
The problem with most games is that you can't effectively perform a fighting withdraw.
Yeah it they mostly turned their backs and go stabbed lol
A key part of Hannibal’s victory at Cannae was the terrain. In an attempt to avoid envelopment the Roman army positioned itself on a narrow battlefield (approximately 2km wide), between a river on one flank and a hill on the other. Because of this it meant that Hannibal’s army would also be able to avoid being enveloped. The Romans wanted a head on battle, and Hannibal knew this so he let them play right into his trap. Of course there were several other factors but had that battle been on more open ground it would most likely not have gone the way it did.
Here i am struggling to move troops and your doing this.
These vids show the importance to have reserves to plug the gaps.
I would wish for recreation Siege of Alesia also known as Siege within the siege, but I guess it's impossible
That would be cool! I'm still waiting for open field battle fortifications mods
What mod lets you wear leopard pelt and shoulder armour at the same time?
It's the same shoulder piece I believe! I do have a mod called Open Source Armory on, so it adds something like 1k new equipment pieces
@@Strat-Guides Thanks 🙏
It will work when game invents system where once you get lots of people near you for longer duration of time You start losing Oxygen which start effecting your combat capabilities and visions etc.. with added benefit of getting K.O if you stay long enough. (Like in GOT john snow becoming breathless in battle against bolten where his whole army getting surrounded)
Yeah it would be hard to add all of those mechanics to the game
For ai inf to bunch up on middle you should charge your own inf in V Formation than give fall back order in the middle. flanks should have less inf to deal with than they advance and push the enemy from flanks with cav support to box them in instead of starting in line formation
I'm still waiting for all my mods to catch up to latest update...this video is just teasing me lol
Yeah I know the feeling lol I just updated to 1.1.0 last night after finishing this one
Can you do a video defending against Mongolians? I feel like that would be interesting. Maybe pick a battle where Mongolians won, either in a open field or through a siege, and see if you can do better.
I've got a couple battles on my list just like you describe :D
Its funny how even the AI is not as stupid as the roman general during Cannae
Haha true!
Now Do General Bai Qi's Changping Tactics
Or Cao Cao at Guandu