Emergence and levels of Being - with JP Marceau
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- čas přidán 11. 12. 2019
- This discussion with JP Marceau was prompted by a tweet I made about the Book of Ephesians. JP picked up on it and we decided to have a conversation about hierarchy, levels of being, and emergence.
JP's channel: / @j.p.marceau5146
Merci Jonathan!
Kind of like in basic training, they break down your former identity (which can't be integrated as it is into the military) and reform you (like a second childhood) into a functional member of the group.
Your old identity was orientated towards the wrong meaning(not high enough), so you need to reform it into a new one that plays a role within a higher purpose.
Love this, glad someone is having these important conversations, can’t wait to take notes
Loved your guest!
JP and Jonathan with another awesome video. Great job guys!
I’ve had the same question about the inversion of the angels in that icon. Now I know. But more importantly, I now know how it relates to digestion.
This is actually very helpful for understanding the Patreon video better. I must have watched it 2-3 times haha but the way JP explains it here makes it more clear for me. There's a few other examples of the flipping that have crossed my mind and come up in conversations. (lol "crossed" my mind) Like when Christ offers his flesh and blood to us, that's a flip going from what we would instinctively push away (rigour) into what we gather into ourselves and which then gives us eternal life (mercy). Also when you cross your arms you're holding yourself together, protecting yourself (mercy), but the flip is that it can come across to others as rigorous.
Merci Jp et Jonathan.
Oh man, this safe-for-the-public symbolism just isn't doing it for me anymore, I might have to subscribe for that real hardcore stuff :D
Great talk! I thought about it a lot lately. the language of Mercy, Rigger, and Sacrifice gives me plenty to think about.
This process that was described with the apple example, you can see it applying everywhere we transform multiplicity into unity and vice versa. An example that popped to my head was the ordering of a book shelf:
So first, we have some piles of books scattered around the room (islands of small unities). The first thing we have to do is to collect them to a single pile (bringing them into unity) and bring them over to the book shelf. Then, we need to seperate the books into single books in order to figure out how to put them (multiplicity again). Then we see that the book shelf cannot interact as a unity with the books we want to put on it. It has to become a multiplicity and some books have to be removed from the shelf and re-ordered in order for us to make room for the new books. Only then can we integrate the books back to the shelf.
Hopes that this example makes
sense...
Thanks for the talk JP and Jonathan.
Thank you both. Also, JPageau, to your brother whose book is very good. I found your comment about some people's fear of hierarchy, but then Christ's blessing of the humble and meek as being inheritors of the new creation, to put my own spin on it, very poignant. An J-PM's basic scheme (the purgatory of the apple) give me good things to think about
Jonny V seemed to light up when you brought up the Dust being gathered and the spirit being blown. Thanks for trusting the public with this discussion.
The angel of death who killed the Egyptian firstborn, was also the angel of Mercy towards the Israelite first born.
Yes, there is this pattern: in all great disasters God is showing his Mercy on a few survivors, who afterwards share their testimony/ story of God's faithfulness. It happened in Gulags, it happened in the concentration camps, during all persecutions etc. And it happened many times in Jewish history.
So on the higher level God is applying his rigor allowing all this horrible history to happen and on the level of particular families, individuals he is applying mercy to draw them nearer in the midst of all that.
@@forthegloryofthelord I think I would distinguish between things such as natural disasters, mass evils perpetrated by men, and direct acts of God's judgment. Although I do understand that some preserved through disasters, Wars, and such things often thank God for his mercy and protection on them and they are correct to do so, I do not think that it means that those who do not survive are not also in the own way experiencing the mercy of God, who can orchestrate all things to the benefit of those he loves even death.
@@forthegloryofthelord I just don't believe that we should look at God's mercy as applying only to whether people survived this or that event in this life. I think that's the wrong level of analysis.
@@marykochan8962 I agree. In the scripture, unforeseen circumstance was said to have killed people & not any particular sinfulness on their part. To believe G-d's mercy is only on the survivors & therefore judgment on those who perish is unscripturally simplifying the matter. One could assume incorrectly that rain doesn't fall on the righteous & sinful alike. Mortal life vs eternal life is very complicated.
Great discussion, guys. Book recommendation. Peter Leithart’s book Traces of the Trinity expounds in many of theses themes: the nature and instances of perichoresis.
Well today's the day. I'm gladly joining your patrons. Merci Jonathan.
Great talk. Wonder if JP Marceau is versed in the work of Gilles Deleuze, especially since he discusses Bergson in other videos. I am sort of amateur scholar of Deleuze and feel his metaphysical insights incorporating Spinoza, Bergson, Aristotle, Nietzsche, Scotus etc can really add to the conversation.
His concept of Differentiation/Differenciation, which explores the relationship of multiplicity/unity as integral drivers of creation, maps on to the idea of man as mediator between Heaven/Earth.
Also, his interpretation of Nietzsche's Eternal Return (of the same), as opposed to the Eternal Return of Difference should yield some intersting insights.
How does Deleuze key concept of "Difference" make sense in terms of Symbolism.
So much to think about.
His eating analogy was pretty good. It reminded me of a death/rebirth cycle.
When I read "levels of being" I immediatly think of the Spiral Dynamics model. Cheers from France.
Fascinating.
I think Ephesians talk about being elect IN CHRIST is key here.
It's not about individuals being picked, but Christ being picked, abd those in him ARE him, they're in his body by way of salvation, by way of repentance and processing by the Holy Spirit... like the apple.
So it is ONLY Christ that has eternal life, but when we enter into hin, with one another, we ARE his body, but only Christ is the head, joined together BY THE spirit, us in him and him in us, see John 17.
Yes. I think there's some value in Tertullian style traducianism here as well. It's spiritually and literally true, not just symbolically true. The symbols have power because they correspond to a literal reality, but it's only understood through narrative, through our story we traverse together over time.
What a great talk!
ravissary79 thank you for using both sides of your brain.. it's so refreshing to see, and oh so rare.
Awesome!
49:25 this coming together for good, in the "right" way, to me is the validation of the higher principle (goal / purpose /telos). What incorporates into the body that supports the higher principle that was sacrificed to establish is those things that "fit" into the pattern of the telos. That's how I see it.
If I’m understanding correctly, sheep and goats: multiplicity (fragmentation?), Christ: point of transformation, angels: mercy and rigor as applied to the human individual
'this is my body, broken for you'
Your supporters have probably watched your Patreon video more than once. I know I have.
At least 3 for me.
3 here too haha
Same. 3 is the number isn't it? (NOBODY ELSE COMMENT lol)
Generous BUCKOS must have shared their links with others.
@@jarlnicholl1478 Dammit Jarl. And no.
Thank you both for this fascinating discussion, and please allow me to add some more thoughts. First I want to give some criticism of JPM's apple analogy, then hopefully provide a piece that may be missing. I think that JPM is jumping levels of the hierarchy with the apple analogy. It isn't clear to me that the components of the person are cells or even molecules. We don't think of ourselves that way, but instead we consider our body parts, organs, passions and personalities, etc. as being the components from which we are built. I am interested in seeing a cellular- or molecular-level analysis, but I don't think the unifying principle would be the human mind; maybe DNA or the principle of molecular self-replication as manifest in DNA, but again I think it needs more thought.
Back to the apple, it doesn't click for me, and I think the same is true for JPM and JP, how exactly the body is giving mercy to the apple. I propose that the mercy comes in the form of attention plus words from the mind (also simultaneously this is where the rigor comes from). So the mind must say "Peel the apple, cut out the core, and chop the flesh into slices. Then eat this piece first." or "Take a bite of the apple here first (selecting one part of the apple over another)." So rigor is applied from the mind to the apple in selecting which parts to eat or not eat, and the order in which to eat the chosen pieces. The body cuts the apple, discarding the peel and the core. Simultaneously, from the choses pieces, the body applies mercy as it "in-corp-orates" the good part of the apple. [Something is coming to mind from Mattieu's book about preparing food vs. gathering it together in Gen. 18, but I digress.] So the whole cycle is: the mind acts through the body to separate the good from the bad, and incorporates the good to come under the authority of the mind as part of the body.
Now let's look at the scale part: The whole apple is selected (mercy) from among many apples to be eaten (remaining apples feel rigor). Then rigor is applied to the whole apple to divide it. Then mercy is applied to the good pieces of apple to be eaten. From the point of view of the human, I think this is it. We could go then to the organ or even cellular level and apply a similar analysis, where the principle of the cell acts through the enzymes and other molecules to bring in the good and exclude the bad parts of the apple. I still feel like I am missing something big here, as I don't really see the flip, unless it comes from the different points-of-view. I.e. from the whole apple's initial point of view, it is being sacrificed, and all it feels is the rigor. But after the transformation/incorporation of the apple, it sees that is has avoided the fate of rotting into the earth, and instead lives on as part of the body.
Thank you again for the discussion!
Thanks for thoughts. I agree.
Hey man, how about you do something like making patreon videos public after a set amount of time? A generous amount of time, like a year, or longer?
This would be a decent idea, I think. Might be an option to help during busy months too.
The example of the flip occurring through Christ within the story of Israel was very helpful. I think the insight began to sink in at that point for me. Though, I admit, with the biblical narrative, it seems to me like rigor and mercy are applied simultaneously, which makes it difficult to parse. For instance, God holds the kingdom of Israel to a high moral standard so that when they fail to follow it they are judged unworthy to live in the land, yet that exile is also the womb where the possibility of restoration and return to the land is conceived, which I see as ultimately merciful. But that example is only at one level of reality.
46:46 the only language missing here for me is the language of the feminine making it possible for the multiplicity to happen and for the space (masculine) to be established per the higher principle organization.
39:20 Whoa, this really brought a bunch of things together about the decent and how it relates to the whole process of eating. Great stuff.
I can't help but think of the masculine and feminine when you both were talking about heaven and earth and Eph. 5. Understanding the earth as the feminine which opens itself, creates a space to be filled, to receive the masculine, we see a picture of how God relates to us as bridegroom to his bride.
The inversion aspect is a bit mysterious. But I think the marital analogy accounts for this as well. Perhaps in the way that Jesus portrayed God as not just the initiator and in-filler, but also in the way that Jesus asks us to seek him.
The Pattern of Light going through the Eye Fits well here.
Allow Light in. (Mercy)
Invert. (The Cross)(Sacrifice)
Push out to Meaning. (Rigor)
SO many Questions.
Does the Flip Occur between each level?
Only some levels?
Only descending?
In the section about leading a team to make something, and the idea of the purpose being "too tight" to bring into reality reminds me of the concept of "tolerance" in construction. On drawings, we can say that I want this to be 25 cm long, +/- 10mm. In other words, if it is 25 cm, 5 mm long, that's still acceptable and it can still be integrated into the whole, and won't affect the functionality (the teleos) of the product. But we can have two different problems arise with the idea of tolerance. If things are "over-defined" or the tolerances are too narrow, it will either be too expensive or even just outright impossible to make a part that is acceptable, and we'll get too many rejected parts and costs will skyrocket. However, if the tolerances are too loose, or the product itself is not held to the tolerance standard and too many parts are integrated that are too far out of the proper dimension range, the finished product will not function properly and will tear itself part because pressures build up in improper areas and the whole thing will disintegrate.
Concept applies for ourselves, for our relationships, and for how reality itself works. In other words, it's a fractal concept, which seems to be the marker for truth in this new way of symbolically looking at the world. Truth is fractal, but that's a whole different discussion.
Anyway, thanks for a mind-bending video. I'm loving this new way of looking at the world.
thanks for this perspective ^
45:16 Jonathan, yeah understanding this exchange in a business context or anytime anyone organizes anything. These processes have to happen otherwise the whole will either be rejected or dissipate. I think you could write a book about all this framed in a way that highlights how to have a successful organization. I know I am going to be using this in exactly this manner in my life.
We also see the "cross" or "flip" ya'll are talking about in Revelation when the seventh angel stands with his right foot in the sea and left foot on land in Revelation 10. I thought out these events as a symbolic way to demonstrate bringing opposites together under an greater authority without being consumed by one another. In the instance of this passage, the angel had a rainbow above his head referencing the promise that the water will not consume the land like in the flood.
In order to learn you must go through the same process. Part of your current body of knowledge must be let go or change in order to integrate new pieces of knowledge.
Regarding work pre-fall vs post-fall, could you use the word participation to describe the work of tending that man did? I picture him walking around, petting the animals, picking fruit from the trees, basically being in harmony with the rest of creation. He was participating in the processes of life. This required him to expend energy, but when we think of work in the post-fall sense, there is an urgency to prepare for the future to protect against his impending death, which is not present pre-fall.
I might become a patron to view that video...this moment at 10:35 to 10:49 when he says "Fire" in response to Marceau and the...suppression? in Pageau's expression almost is just DRIPPING with dat ancient knowledge.
It's really worth it; there's a lot of other content on Patreon too
I really wish I could understand what this gentleman was saying through his accent. I'm only catching like 20% of everything he says. It sounds fascinating whatever it is! :(
I find it is easier to comprehend such interviews better upon slowing the playback speed down to .75x or even slower, & it also helps to turn on the English-closed captioning. Keep in mind that many foreign language as their 1st tend to speak English much faster than Americans naturally speak once they get a good feel for our language. Their cadence & speech may seem disjointed to us, especially as their accent is usually retained. But I usually consider that a me problem rather than a lacking upon their part.
I also find that in addition to speaking faster, most are much more articulate & well educated on a wide variety of subject matter.
If you slow the playback to the .75x as I suggest, the host sounds like he's had a drinkypoo or two, speaking s-low-ly, while the guest is barreling away at record pace during his segments.
I was looking for this comment. I was struggling
In the icons where the goats and sheep are flipped maybe that also signifies the flip of the blessing from Israel to the gentiles. Before the sheep were good and received mercy and the goats were bad receiving the justice. When Christ was killed by the Jews and Israel’s blessing is removed and they become a scattered people that is justice turned on the sheep. Then the goats are brought together and shown mercy and created the Church.
with Girard it does seem like the concept of a 'lure' / allure / attraction is linked with imitation to bring one closer to the one above. In a loving hierarchy the consumption would be an integration where the lower is lifted up perhaps, but in an inverted hierarchy the consumption brings the lower down or keeps it static perhaps?
Like the scapegoat mechanism is actually a false transendence for the individuals of the mob, and eventually they must 'feed' again, but they feed one one who is placed below them.
Oh wait, is this a Wendy's?
What if God is currently doing an inversion with those “in the Church” (those who affirm propositions consciously) and those “outside” (those who “act as if” & embody Love)?
Along the lines of the grafting in of the Gentiles or the warning of being cut off of Israel. (Do not boast.)
I’m not arguing for strict lines between these categories. Neither is ubiquitously in/out.
Actually someone has made the reverse zombie story. There's a movie called "Warm Bodies"
This 'flipping' can be described as a 'crossing' and the cross itself is the midpoint or apex of the crossing of human history. Study the chiastic structures in the Hebrew text for a better understanding.
The Great Inversion
The flip is like a slinky going down the stairs
There is certainly some emergence from every BUCKO's intimate parts at the sight of a new PAGEAU video!
Next Pageau video should unpack Willy Reich and the workings of orgone energy.
Great. Haven't watched the video yet, but I sure hope you mention quantum uncertainty providing an ontological loophole for all kinds of interesting things like free will and downward causation.
Matter emerging from quantum foam is very in depth described in Genesis, I have a link correlating this if you would like a clear description 😊
Matter being the organized next level of emergence in the days of creation, and man coming after, hydrogen is the first emergence and then the orders of matter as put in the periodic table represent the levels of complexity leading to biological organisms.
you realize your comment is only valid for 51 minutes until the end of the video or whenever you watch it.
@@michaelsteven1090 what?
See Arthur Koestler on holons in the Ghost in the Machine. I read it long ago.
Is it just me, or did u for seemingly no reason drop something massively heavy? Im listening to JP talk about how eating apples works one minute, and the next thing i know you, in words, simultaneously are showing me what reality LOOKS LIKE, HOW IT WORKS, and WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE WHEN IT’S WORKING?? WHILE I’M FOR REAL IN LAS VEGAS!
This is actually heavy stuff right? As in, objectively heavy, real stuff you’re talking about right?
for real, when he says it's 'how everything works' he's not kidding haha.
Where would one begin trying to see the world symbolically? I've read your piece about symbolism in the "no such thing as literal video" and thought it was great. But it still seems so abstract.
Look on Pageaus channel where he talks to his brother or check out his brothers book.
I have your brother's book and I would love to have an app that has flashcards for the symbols in the book. Also, why don't you write your own book?
7:57
This was a good topic and the explanations are good.
If we are made in God's image?..God is the creator..he creates 'down' to us.?But can we also create?..even if we can't create up to God ? Are our thoughts creating in this reality ? am i making sense ?
Marceau looks like Ogata from Golden Kamuy.
further to this idea of top-down and bottom-up I was recently reading an interesting translation of Ephesians 5:22 which noted that the verb that was used indicated a reciprocal agreement ...such as one who is tethered under a shelter. Bound to but protected by...
Jonothan I think you would like this debate between two Christians about the nature of the soul: czcams.com/video/wK8HOiXudKo/video.html . One of them has an understanding that the soul is an emergent property of the brain.
I am wondering how this "flip" manifest in an individual's spiritual life and how do we participate in the "emergence" and the "flip"? Or is this something that is happening without my participation? What would the "emergence" look like in Christian vernacular?
48:22 I am not afraid of the hierarchy because I strive for synergy and that to me is the balance of people submitting themselves to a higher purpose and to each other for the greater good. Also, I am sensitive to lack of hierarchy (chaos) and crushing hierarchy (tyranny).
God bless. This new guest could use some caffeine tho.
I'm transracial
Please make it public....:-|
It's $2 to get access to it dude. Cmon you can do it
6:25 JP when you say that when Christ came he showed that God was on the side of the scapegoat are you saying Christ created the idea of the martyr?
I don't think it would be that Christ created the idea of the martyr - an earlier example in the Bible is Daniel and his companions being cast into the furnace because they would not bow down to the golden statue. In a type of resurrection, they were saved/guarded by an angel and brought back out, thus demonstrating to Nebuchadnezzar that God was 'on their side.' This is discussed in Matthieu Pageau's book a few different times, definitely recommended if you haven't checked it out :)
Can the margins be part of the charity without acknowledgement of the higher mind? Over time, does Christianity get pushed to the margins by the people it rejected (with "rules"), only to have another flip? Is God currently chewing us up? We are certainly in some type of inversion.
So, with all this Symbolism & Iconography talk, do you find that it's contradictory to the commandment against Idolatry??? Because it's literally engravings of things in Heaven & on Earth.
no, just like making the temple, or making the cherub, or the grapes or making the bulls in the temple. I really need to make a video on the 2nd commandment...
Jonathan Pageau
You do need to make a video over that commandment, that would be great & I do understand that. Similar to the brass serpent Moses made. Although, I do see there being a direct commandment from God in all of those instances. Which would act as a sort of sub-clause to that article of Law.
I’ve always wondered how far that commandment extended. Like is just basic doodling a violation? It’s a topic I think we should tread carefully in. Man likes to both self-justify & condemn.
I know the overall purpose of the commandment is to keep humanity from seeking Truth & Power from sources outside of themselves. For instance, Money is an Idol which steals the inherent power of 99% of the world’s population. Money might actually be the very thing that commandment was made for when looking at Revelation’s Mark Of The Beast.
Jonathan Pageau
Thanks for responding.
Icons are symbols. They are where spirit and material meet. The abstract and the natural come together to tell us about reality.
@@looqo7632
You're not making a good defense, because that's almost literally word for word what Pagans say about their idols. That's it's not the form itself, but the spirit within the form that they worship.
Hey Jonathan, I think this video will really help you in your thoughts. I see many parallels between what you two are talking about and this guy's teachings. In this one, he is talking about "division and unity - the engine that runs reality". Even if you don't end up in the nondual camp, I think you will see a lot of connections between each of your work. czcams.com/video/vp99hZJfBHg/video.html
Speaking as a Canadian I will vote for Donald Trump