My favorite: - Knock, knock.. - "Who's there?" - "Jesus. Let me in." - "Why?" - "So that I can save you, from what I will do to you, if you don't let me in."
Whats wrong with that? Isnt that ehat parents do to help rheir children? That is what GOOD parents do. I hope you dont have kids. If so, tell them sorry for me.
@@Jamie-Russell-CME Good parents teach and take care of their children so that they can grow up and have a good life in society. The society can be a tough and unforgiving place, but the parents didn't create the society and the rules in it. They are like guides who give you a map of a forest they didn't create or design. They don't have the powers to change it, and they too have lived and struggled through it. Their hands are tied. The best they can do is help you here and there, and give advice. God, on the other hand, is in control of everything, and not only creates the universe in which evil is a possibility, but also creates hell, and creates the rule that whoever doesn't believe in him will go to hell. As you can see, your god, who doesn't exist, is the creator and the designer of evil and torment. He is in control of everything, he can change it anytime or could have made a better universe. Instead, he created a universe full of suffering and set up an assholish rule that nonbelievers and sinners will burn forever for finite crimes. Please don't insult parents by comparing them to Yahweh.
+GhostHawk1776 How can your god be seen, when you have hidden it outside of time and space, which means you have hidden it even from yourself. That was not a smart move!
Matt nailed the point so perfectly when he said we're expected to make rational judgement based on certain criteria that proves itself to work, time and again, but when it comes to the most important information (whether or not God exists) we are told to ignore the very reasoning that works in every other aspect of our lives and "just believe". I was half tempted to send this video to my religious mother, but then I quickly realized that she would more than likely refuse to even watch it. She and so many other devout Christians see any information that could have the potential to cause doubt, as something from Satan himself, trying to get believers to go astray. Therefore trying to reason with many believers is absolutely futile.
Yeah If you really want to believe something, you can believe it. You can believe anything with sufficient personal reasons, and block anything you aren't comfortable with. Doesn't prove you're correct though.
Good choice on not sending it. My mom wouldn’t watch it either. Woman taught Sunday school when I was a child. Her faith is untouchable. I’ve heard that very work of devil to cause doubt. It’s frustrating. Good choice.
Which is why Christianity and Islam are one of the most effective religions. A built in doubting mechanism that no matter how bizarre or absurd things apparently are in reality, all that can be whisked away by satan planting the seeds of doubt. I've given up on being rational to people who are entrenched in their faith. The only Christians where facts and contradictions seems to work on are the ones who are already questioning their belief and actually seeking truth. It's absolutely futile dealing with the other kinds of people. They cherry pick everything. Why is there evil in the world and God hardly ever does anything? Man sinned, it's because of our own doing and Satan is the lord of this earth. Anything good happens? God did it. Praise Jesus..Prayer not work? Was gods plan.
Thanks for all the details. LOL Just love it when village atheists say this stuff and never cite a single example. LOL Yet somehow EVERYTHING we know is contradicts the Bible. Examples please !?!?!
@@karcharias811 Influence of god and DNA replication being nil. Einsteins field equations macroscopically and Bells inequality generally denying all possible mysterious ways of god, supernatural effects on physical systems, and magical thinking about space, time or velocity. There are no "hidden variables" when electrons disperse in the double slit, its always physics itself, via wave interference, making this happen. Nowhere had god in any way manifested himself in any equation or formalism that perfectly works without him. You could say "but god can suddenly change all that" yeah sure. Then we just will scientifically reinquire the rules, and if god changes them continuously, no life would be possible due to interactions. There is no scenario where god poses any relevance.
@@karcharias811I can lay out one at least. 1 Corinthians 14 God is not a god of Confusion but of peace. This claim here is one. God is a god of peace yet allows atrocities done in his name while also not preventing war in any way in the world he has made. He also apparently about clarity over confusion yet there are hundreds of denominations that cant agree on what he said in the bible as well as never communicating with anyone that leads easily to confusion even the people he has communicated with he hardly ever explains himself even as jesus. They would ask jesus a simple question and jesus would create a long drawn out metaphor about his upcoming sacrifice that doesnt really have anything to do with what was asked which confuses everyone not in the know with future sense. God also confuses the way they talk in the story of the tower of babel for apparently no reason in the story. God is a god of Confusion. His name should be Confusion instead of Jealous.
+666OccultRock666 My recommendation is to strive to move beyond the attitude of regret. To live one's life with a perpetual feeling of regret is to relinquish control. Perhaps you can find a way to turn your 12 years into a positive learning experience?
I regret none of mine. I even studied to be a pastor. Those years helped mold me into who I am today. I am an atheist but I see great value in parables.
I sincerely tried to have a relationship with god. I used to want to believe desperately but couldn't make a blind leap of faith. I called myself agnostic for years , leaving an open door in the hope that one day god may speak to me. I attended progressive churches, always honest about my agnosticism. I finally had to admit that god just didn't exist... and also found an incredible amount of peace.
it's understandable why you believe like that. this is because you are looking for something that does not exist in where it doesn't exist. I would like you to investigate the Quran and Islam (not Muslims - the people) for you will get most of the answers you are looking for.
@@Putiyye Come on man, lol. Christianity is just Judaism 2.0, and Islam is just Christianity 2.0. Mormonism is Christianity 3.0. The cycle will continue, with fools giving their lives, money, and time to a complete fraud.
Coincidentally I had a discussion with a youtuber named Charles Grady who actually tried to defend the she bears story as well. They gymnastics believers engage in to believe is,............breathtaking.
I'm not surprised. I've debated Christians that defended rape and child molestation. And murder. I've actually had face to face chat with a Christian lad who defended genocide. How sick is that.
My favorite defense was by someone I've met who actually doesn't believe God is a good god, but he worships essentially out of fear. His defense was "Meh, God can be a dick sometimes". I kind of respect him more for that.
+daSchoof I have several Muslim acquaintances who believe in Allah precisely because He is absolutely powerful, he can absolutely do whatever He wants, whether good or bad (as defined by human beings) so they better worship Him out of fear of reprisal. I too respect them more for their belief because it doesn't pull any punches and it kind of paints counter-arguments into a corner with very few effective responses. Problem is is that this reason for belief kind of makes them really boring conversationalists about everything I've ever talked to them about. Probably why they are only acquaintances and not friends.
I'm a Baylor alum. I am not sure who sanctioned this, but I am glad they did, and I am thankful you came. Unfortunately, two years ago, I would have likely still been too rigid in my faith to have attended. I found you on CZcams over the Christmas break. Been struggling with my faith for a long time, but I am now about nearly free from it. It's hard letting go of something that has been such a huge part of my life for more than 30 years. I guess I'm still in a mourning stage. It surprises me a little that I have found myself liberating myself from my faith while going to a Christian school. Maybe I shouldn't be. Anyway, thank you.
@@teachpeace3750 Baylor is a christian campus that does not allow atheist speakers. But we just kind of…took the stage, put Dillahunty on it, had a crowd of about 50 or so, and they couldn’t do anything about it. After the show they threatened that if we ever did anything like that again we’d all be expelled.
@@KatanaZeroEnjoyer Well that blows! What other options are there for your education? I would say just do it again and see what they do, but without knowing your circumstances it could be unwise and wildly impractical to throw away perhaps your only chance at higher education.
As a christian who is slowly walking away from the faith, this has been my greatest frustration. This notion that we can have a relationship with God, but it was always so one sided. I didn't understand why God would seemingly speak to other people and not me. So I came to the conclusion that He does n't want a relationship with me while being told that actually he does and the reason he does not speak to me is because i don't have strong enough faith. Nothing makes sense here.
@@scottgodlewski306 Bro, the guy in the comments clearly didn't had any reserach but just used his feeling of "one sided relationship" as an argument. How could you ask me what study will do? Where in the world an argument of " If God acts in a way that is not the way I am thinking that he is suposed to do, so he doesn't exist". Did you see how foolish is this?
This thing about 'free will' from the Christian perspective is flawed as i see it. It's not a true free will in the sense that I have a free choice, I'm being coerced to accept Jesus. Why can't i say "Thanks but no thanks" without having a form of threat hanging over me. I certainly don't want to be in a perpetual damnation scenario when i die, I'm not choosing that over Christ, I'm rejecting both Christ AND Eternal damnation. My free will is to choose neither.
+bonnie43uk Underrated post, and I 100% agree and never thought about it this way. It really is like we live in a universe with a cosmic mafia boss. How is it freedom if you have a gun to your head?
Well said, Bonnie. I agree. The whole idea of free will is a fallacy. Religion is largely based on coercion. I'm with you; I reject anyone or anything that is trying to manipulate me.
In Matt's words, it's having about the same level of freedom as the mafia boss threatening you to do what they tell you or they'll torture and kill you.
@@botousai at the end of the day if u have a gun to your head, u still have a choice. You can choose to either get down or lay down. Free will only accounts for the ability to choose not the choices we have available.
I appreciate how understanding he is regarding religious organizations and those in charge of them. I have had a few cynical friends who perceive religion as a method of control and that anyone higher up in the hierarchy of whatever sect or denomination or church is just there to knowingly and willfully control people for their own benefit. But having grown up in a Christian household and being forced to go to church every Sunday of every week, I know that that's not the case (or at least almost never). They're in those positions because they fully believe and have faith in the doctrine they follow. As he said, they came from the bottom.
I wholeheartedly agree. And, thanks, Matt, for one of the most compelling talks I've heard, from both your mind and heart. It's gently conveyed, showing empathy for the Christian sincerely seeking truth (such as you were). There's nothing more that a Christian responds to than personal testimony that they might hopefully be able to relate to. :O)
Any argument that comes down to 'free will' really bugs me. If God's omniscience includes the ability to know the minutia of every future event (and I've yet to meet a Christian that claims otherwise), that means he created the universe with _full_ knowledge of every act of evil that would occur. Thus he could have modified his design for creation to unfold in any way he wished... making evil not just something that he allowed, but something that he _planned_.
And it means that he knew that certain ones of us who wholeheartedly sought him for decades upon decades would eventually come to a very rational conclusion that he doesn't exist, in the 100% absence of any evidence or interaction from him. He knew this, yet failed to reveal himself to us while dropping little hints to others on a daily basis which removed any and all doubts that he may not exist. That makes our lives a very unfair game of Simon says, where even if you play the game flawlessly you might still spend eternity in unfathomable agony. No such good could possibly call himself JUST
In regards to the problem of evil, it isn't about what we know and God does, but rather the claim that God is all-powerful. If he can know, and do anything, in fact, everything comes from him (they claim), then it doesn't matter what we don't know. God should have a solution that does not include violence and suffering and evil to the extent it exists. To argue God had no other recourse but to allow evil, is to say it wasn't possible. NOTHING should be impossible for God. A world with free will and devoid of evil should be possible (it is in heaven according to them).
I've thought on that with the israelites more than once. I get excuses like "oh but they HAD to rape, murder, and pillage their enemies, that was the cuuuuuulture back then" _bull shit_ , if you're claiming omnipotence, God could have easily went around softening the hearts of their enemies so they'd immediately surrender and convert just by the israelites asking nicely and offering gift baskets.
-Why is there evil and death in the world? -Well a creator linked not compliance to evil and that with natural decay and suffering... somehow he thought it was a perfect idea! -Why doesn't he get rid of evil? -Well, he will eventually. Is not a top priority for a loving God... and perfect procrastinator. Remember that you are like a child and God is like an absent parent.Maybe that is the best possible parenting... you do not know more than God! God knows!
Good job Matt. Keep up your good work. I was confused about religion before I started watching you on the Atheist experience show. You opened my eyes about the BS that is religion, and now I'm an Atheist. Thanks.
Matt is an excellent and captivating lecturer on this subject. You can see his heart is in this and if you add to that his knowledge about the topic, then you get a great lecture.
12:10 I mean _I'm_ mad. While they didn't explicitly lie to me, they knowingly withheld huge chunks of the bible _that they knew were there_ with the intent of making the bible out to be more pleasant and consistent in its message than it was. _That's_ why I'm mad. Though I have been surprised to find the number of times they in fact _did not_ know things were in there because they had never read those parts either. The chain of that mess goes back as far as the religion's conception.
Matt, you are awesome, thank you for sharing your great knowledge. My knowledge is multiple times stronger because of you. So grateful you exist while I exist!
Great job Matt. I've been looking for someone to discuss these types of things. It's so much more effective in encouraging critical thinking.
Před 8 lety+16
One more thing about the problem of Free will: So god gave me free will to chose. Free will is very important to him. But he sends each and every one of us onto this world already carrying the sin of Adam and Eve. How does that work ?
Not only that, but if "free will" is the ability to choose good (when you are born a sinner already) then according to the most common belief about heaven, there will be no free will in heaven. People will be free from sin in heaven, therefore unable to choose to sin. If this is the case, God could have just created humans IN heaven knowing in advance when ones of the countless souls that would have existed, would choose to follow him. The whole thing makes ZERO sense when you give it just a few minutes of thought.
this is the base to all atheist go to heaven. ...you die but you still have your free will...so you see god does exist....and you choose heaven. ...no where does it say you lose your free when you die
Philip Reynolds It doesn't say that. But it doesn't say that the answer to the problem of evil is free will either. There is a very strong case to be made about determinism, and that God has chosen who will be drawn to him. That puts the theist in an even worse position regarding the problem of evil. However, if free will IS the source of all evil, then logic dictates that free will has to go in heaven. Satan rebelled against God and sinned while in heaven. But the bible says we won't. So you don't really have that many options.
“You can’t understand things the way god can,” is an utter failure. It assumes a circular argument - that the god in question exists. The problem of evil remains. It would be better for them to say, “If there were such a god, you wouldn’t be able to understand things,” but that doesn’t change the meaning of omnipotent and omnibenevolent, so the problem of evil remains.
MacacoVerde Yes, and so many of those ad hoc explanations contradict one another. I posted elsewhere that many apologists argue both that their god’s morals are eternal *and* that the pro-slavery verses had to be there because that was just how things were back then. Someone responded that he didn’t know any apologists who did that, then proceeded to do it himself over the course of a few replies *and* cite as evidence (for different points) three apologists who gave those two contradictory explanations.
Midway through my third cover to cover reading of the bible, I just stopped believing. I wish that I had back all the time and money that I had wasted trying to force myself into that box.
~ Thank you, Matt, for intellect and truth and critical thinking as always!! I still want my life back (Catholic), my foreskin back, and my innocence also returned intact. Wordplay and word salad indeed from the religious delusional folks! Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
My atheism has nothing to do with either the Problem of Evil or Divine Hiddenness. My belief failed due to the contradictions, the failed prophecy, the historical and physical inaccuracy, and the immorality of the Bible. Eden's first flaw is omniscience, and rejection breaks down the concept of original sin; the Flood, omniscience and omnibenevolence go out, and the story disproven with scientific observation; Job, a fable of pointless cruelty; Babel breaks down in dozens of ways; the Exodus, having no record of proof or physical evidence, breaks down the entirety of the Laws and Moses; Jesus' birth story contradictions breaks down prophecy and New Testament reliability; the Gospel's reliance on the old laws, support for slavery, giving all to enemies and taking no thought for tomorrow, and failed prophecy destroys the remainder. Hence, no need to even get to the point of disproving a god, when the Bible is enough to reduce belief to deism at most in the first place, and logical reduction reduces the remaining deistic agnosticism to rational position of agnostic atheist.
+fowlfables Unfortunately most people are retarded and cannot follow (A therefore B therefore C etc.).If one just started with the "omni" problem and followed it on from purely logical standpoint like you or started from lack of evidence for Exodus-->no Moses-->no 10 commandments-->etc. But no. All this talk of nothing:apologists doing somersaults to prove their point and people like Matt here doing verbal gymnastics to oppose them.All this for nothing-there never was,is or will be a proof of God (yes,the big G one). This is because a true God-the one they have been trying to sell me and people before me was the "omni-all" God-not this puny ass " powerful alien" Matt is claiming God is.THAT WAS the God of Christianity.And that god is not only logically impossible (the question of God vs stone is not as foolish as Matt claims in the context of internal inconsistency of the definition in question) but also not supported by any sciences (anthropology ,paleontology, history,physics etc.).People are just...very,very,very stupid.Or/and misinformed.
+TheSleep Les yeah god changes with every generation. I guess the God people (American) worship today is the Omni present god of prosperity (aka lottery/sow your seed) , and power .
There's tons of secular music that can fill me with awe or evoke some other strong emotional response. I can't help tearing up at the sheer *beauty* of it when I listen to Pat Benatar's _We Belong_ especially when the choir of kids join in - Pat's voice is an absolute delight as it is and the harmony of the kids just nails it home. Rachel Platten's _Fight Song_ Crosby, Stills and Nash's _Teach Your Children_ 10cc's _For You and I_ Billy Joel's _You're Only Human_ Bob Marley's _Three Little Birds_ Dobie Gray's _Drift Away_ - the list is nearly endless. I can be lifted up when I'm down, lifted higher when I'm not. I sometimes feel in absolute awe that something so amazing and evocative as music can be created by humans. Not because we're "not worthy" or "too base" but because the music seems to transcend the mundane into uncharted territories. It doesn't feel like it belongs in the physical world even though the instruments and voices that make it, and the people who composed and wrote it, do. Religion certainly does not have the monopoly on beautiful or evocative music. In fact, although I've encountered some pleasant and/or innocuously-phrased religious songs, I've also found a lot that sound terrible and/or have objectionable (on moral grounds) lyrics. If a number of Christmas songs supposedly "celebrating" the birth of humankind's saviour sound more like funeral dirges penned by a suicidally-depressed person, then there's probably something fundamentally wrong. If your "uplifting" songs are jingoistic and sound like a call to arms to suppress or smite the unbelievers, there's definitely something wrong.
I used to think I felt the holy spirit in church. Until I went to an ed Sheeran concert and felt the exact same thing... And so the first seeds for atheism were planted
I remember an elder telling me that if god were to reveal himself it will basically force me into believing in him therefore violating my free will. My response was “I freely consent of my own free will to know of Gods existence.” He quickly changed the subject.
"Young" is the key word. Also the fact that his parents moved house every 5 years,which I think he mentioned. He not trying to figure out "God", really. That's not his struggle or confusion. He kept talking about a career in preaching in that Southern Baptist environment as if that's what His will is suppose to be for him. He assumed things about God, and then he wonders why God would be like that. Crickets. For a Doubting Thomas. He's barely started on his human journey. But he seems like a nice guy, and Doubt is the other side of Faith. Why? In it, not of it. He may be done with 'God' as a concept, but God's not done with him. From the abstract 'Word', to the existential Word-became-flesh-and-dwelt-among-us, it can be quite a trip. So crickets for now, but To Be Continued... Not quite a period, but a semi-colon. Cheers.
Don't age stereotype people. Older does not always mean wiser. Life's journey is different for everyone, and some people have a really hash time right off the bat. Also, there are 70 year old atheists...so if older is wiser then we have a stalemate. Using age to defend God is a foolish argument. Good day to you.
To accept that God allows evil for reasons perfectly sufficient for God [13:00], the theist concedes that they cannot know the mind or will of God and therefore cannot claim to understand divine morality at any level. Thus, such an answer is not only bankrupt of any explanatory power, but acknowledges that morality MUST be derived and interpreted by man because God plays by rules we cannot understand. While I appreciate Matt's points on Divine Hiddenness, there are a host of cascading philosophical consequences for theists who use ignorance as a defense to the problem of evil.
I don't think explanatory power has any meaning when talking about things which do not manifest any effect - though just wanted to chime in that you seem to have jumped from specifics to generalities to specifics again within the main point you were getting across - it does not follow that because you do not know someone's reasoning for something in particular that you know nothing of them or could know nothing of them on any other item... especially when they're magic. If you haven't checked it out go watch the debate between Matt and sye that he references with this comment, sye is a deplorable asshat but he's not arguing from such a weak position.... err... well i mean it is an absurdly weak position, but not in that way... actually it's perhaps not fair to ascribe some level of strength to it, it's just an assertion really.
" While I appreciate Matt's points on Divine Hiddenness, there are a host of cascading philosophical consequences for theists who use ignorance as a defense to the problem of evil." I agree. The best and most simple being that if God allows evil for "reasons we don't know", then we do not know if the reasons are Good, moral and Just. It is just as likely that he is doing them for malicious, evil, immoral reasons (if we don't know what the reason or reasons are or is). . If you don't know the reason, then why are they assuming it is for Good, moral, Just reasons?
It is a bit of a clincher. "We can't understand God's morality" and yet they want to claim that this huge book is a perfect reflection of that exact same morality? A bit of a problem for them, for sure. Apologism has never been about truth, it's been about coming up with excuses that sound plausible enough to get you to stop thinking about it.
+Matt Dillahunty Keep up the Great Work!!! Can you do a segment about Sleep Paralysis vs Night Demon or something that explains this Phenomenon... Please :) Basically, what's your thoughts on this topic? Thank You :)
Matt Dillahunty I didn't think this was the real Matt Dillahunty until I saw who owns the channel. I just got done with a podcast on the Syrian refugees and I've learned SOOO much from watching your show. I really appreciate the service you've done for the atheist community.
I don't think that's necessary. You can still talk about animal suffering especially, since they don't have souls and everything, and apparently just here to give us humans food... (according to Genesis).
+jehovasinz Why not? It's one of the arguments I hear the most from people when asked what led them to leave their faith. To apologists it's not convincing sure (theodicy), but not every believer is an apologist.
The point about "Satan/Free will" is the best argument against the non-appearance of God. Superb. If I got nothing else from this video, I got that. A brilliant refutation.
Intellectual honesty is so important when discussing these topics. How often have you watched a Theist video that starts by looking at an argument for God, but then saying "That's not a good argument because x, y, and z...". Nice vid Matt.
I'm right there with you Matt on most of what you say here; the argument from 'Divine Hiddenness' is what started me (very recently) on my road away from religion and faith. My conclusion is that either there is no God or if there is a God he doesn't care about us enough to have any real, tangible, intelligible interaction with us.
The problem with concluding that god knows better than we do, and that's why he allows and or performs evil, is that anyone can do this with any atrocity committed by a god or even a human. A person could say "What Hitler did was okay, because he knew something we don't, if only we knew what he knew, we would see what he did was the right thing." Anyone can justify any atrocity with that line of reasoning.
That's actually a good point. For me though, saying that God _might_ have a reason is a useless statement because he _might not_ have a reason, and he's been known to kill without reason before: See Job 1:18,2:3
I really like Darkmatter2525's take on Free Will. Set up a scenario where 1 person chooses to commit rape and murder 1 other person who doesn't want to be raped and murdered. By default the free will of the person being raped and murdered is being infringed upon. So 1 persons free will has been taken away by 1 other person's. If God is capable of stopping said rape and murder, if God is all good and would want to stop any and all evil from happening, and knew that said rape and murder was occurring - being omnipresent, then you would have to conclude that God would stop it from happening. When you bring up the argument that he gave us free will and therefore bad things happen - you then lost the argument. God must then be evil, or at least God wants the rape and murder of the 1 person stated before. Remember, that person's free will is already being taken away by the other person, so if God were to interfere with our free will and stop it from happening, God would only be affecting the free will of one person - the rapist/murderer. So you have to ask yourself, if you were God, would you let the rapist's and murderer's free will continue, or would you give free will back to the person being raped and murdered. Either way, free will is being infringed upon, and it still seems like there is a better option for God.
i don't think it's a good argument. just because you can't _exercise_ your free will doesn't mean you lost your free will. water makes things wet, but if it's on a hydrophobic surface - that doesn't mean water has lost its property to make things wet, it just means that in this particular situation, the water can't act on its ability to make things wet. so while it's certainly an interesting argument that i haven't heard before, it is in fact a bad one.
At around 22:08 when you started talking about a real reason you're an atheist it could almost be word for word how I would explain how I felt during that time in my life!
I get why Matt doesn't really like it, but if you really think into it... there's a quality of difference for allowing say a bad injury collision, that you can learn and grow from the experience, versus young children being trafficked and forced to be sex slaves and all the horrid, irreparable, life-long trauma from that.
Hey Matt! Love your videos! Though you've done this countless times on the show, I've noticed that you've never actually done a stand-alone "Atheist Debates" video about clearing up common misconceptions about 'atheism' and 'agnosticism'. A lot of my friends and people I know still do not seem to understand the difference between "atheism" and "agnosticm" and what they are. And I would love to send them a video where you explain these things. Hopefully waking some of them up to the fact that they've been atheists all along. Of course, if anyone happens to already know a video like that which clears up these conceptions just as nicely as Matt might've done it, I'm all ears!
I think his argument as to why the Problem of Evil doesn't work works just as well against Divine Hiddenness. Someone can say, "God has his reasons that he doesn't reveal himself to everyone" because not every believer or Christian claims that Christianity is about Jesus/God wanting a personal relationship. None of that "personal relationship" stuff they talk about is Biblical and I've had Christians agree with me on that. Calvinists especially would not give two shits about the argument from divine hiddenness, they think people are predestined to Heaven or Hell and God has to give salvation as a gift. At one point Matt says something along the lines of "I have a brain that works" explaining how he can judge God for his hiddenness but could we not say the same about evil? I have a brain that can think and reason and I experience suffering that cannot be reconciled with the idea of a perfectly good omnipotent God that helps people and intervenes in human affairs. We are the ones who suffer as a result of evil, and God (as a perfect being) cannot suffer at all, we have every right to judge God based on the existence of evil. Also, if the person is Christian than they more than likely believe the ultimate good God is working toward is getting as many people into Heaven as possible, in which case evil should not exist at all... there simply is no reason God could have for random every day suffering and evil in the BIG PICTURE of trying to get lot's of people to Heaven. Sure Christians might see that objection as a good one but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Problem of Evil, it means there's something wrong with the objection to it. It's a bit like Josh Feuersteins argument with the circle. Yeah hypothetically God COULD have some reason, out there in that sphere of knowledge we don't know or can't grasp but this is a God the VAST majority of theists claim they do know things about... and the things they claim they do know directly contradict the idea of there being some good cosmic reason for why tsunamis, earthquakes and inoperable brain tumors are a thing. Just because theists can formulate a bad excuse doesn't mean we should abandon the argument. As much as I appreciate Matt trying to push us in the direction of fruitful arguments there are people I've talked to who are atheists as a result of the Problem of Evil. Even Bart Ehrman credits his atheism not to his Biblical studies but to the Problem of Evil.
I've heard an interesting deist approach: God has set the wheels in motion and is just watching the world unfold. Everyone, even before their birth, is destined to either Heaven or Hell. Why worship then, at all? Because all people that are destined to Heaven worship God. It's not to earn the ticket, but for yourself to believe that you go there. It's so backwards and I love it.
+TitenSxull I agree that The Problem of Evil and The Problem of Divine Hiddenness have the same weaknesses of there being theoretically possible excuses for them, so I really don't understand why Matt thinks The Problem of Divine Hiddenness is better (I made a post to Matt's Problem of Evil video to that effect). God could just have his reasons that are incomprehensible to humans for both allowing evil and waiting to communicate with some who sincerely seek him. I also agree that both are rightfully pretty convincing to many people to not believe. I made a post to Matt's The Problem of Evil video outlining why it is not reasonable to believe that there are any omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent gods in the face of the evidence of children being horrifically killed by natural disaster.
Well Matt explained the difference: Evil is a somewhat vague term. People have been trying to come up with definitions of what is good and what is evil for centuries. There are popular problems like the Trolley Problem that might not have an answer. This could be true for god: Maybe acting would make god just as evil, as not acting. A relationship on the other hand is a pretty will defined term. If you want a relationship of any kind with somebody you have to at least communicate with them in some way. It doesn't have to be spoken language or messages. Body language might suffice. The Christian god supposedly wants a loving relationship with everybody, but then doesn't communicate. That's a simple contradiction. In general I don't think the argument "God might have a reason we don't understand." has any more merit than "Maybe there just is no god.". Both are just assumptions.
***** Well, the things that Matt thought were differences were either not a difference [both arguments are geared toward an omnimax god only, both arguments have theoretically possible answers- but no logically necessary answers (Trolley Problem for one)] or pretty easy to deal with ("evil" as a vague term). As for "evil" being a somewhat vague term, it is a simple task to just not use the word "evil" when presenting The Problem of Evil. You don't have to announce ahead of time that you are presenting The Problem of Evil. You can instead just say things like, but not limited to, "it is not reasonable to believe that there are any omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent gods in the face of the evidence of children being horrifically killed by natural disaster." Like The Problem of Evil, The Problem of Divine Hiddenness has theoretically possible- but no logically necessary answers. As you say, "The Christian god supposedly wants a loving relationship with everybody, but then doesn't communicate." This appears to be a contradiction, but it is not necessarily a contradiction as there are theoretically possible answers to it such as, but not limited to, 'God might have a reason we don't understand,' and 'the alleged seeker is in denial and not actually sincere in his seeking of God.' And you are right, the above, theoretically possible, speculative answers have no more merit than, "Maybe there just is no god." That is why the problems of Evil and Divine Hiddenness remain problems for believers in omnimax gods.
***** The thing is though that the Problem of Evil has two facets, it includes both human caused suffering like murder AND unnecessary suffering from natural disasters like earthquakes. It's not just about EVIL it's about suffering, unnecessary suffering usually, that's why believers employ the "well you don't know, that suffering may serve a purpose in the bigger picture. It may actually be for the best" excuse that Matt is talking about. The excuse that "this might be the best possible world that includes Free Will" doesn't explain why child cancer and volcanic eruptions that bury whole cities are a thing it can only be an excuse for why God doesn't stop murderers and rapists (and its a bad excuse at that). After thinking about it though I think I understand why Matt said what he did. He is talking to a Texas audience, most of the Christians they would interact with WILL be the "personal relationship" crowd. I think he may just have tailored the speech to that area of the country. People in the south or in the Bible Belt may have a better chance of talking to friends and family using the Divine Hiddemness argument.
That's a fascinating angle to that question. It touches on a topic that I like discussing which is God's Intent. Yes, if this God character's main company motto is: "to have a relationship with these small humans", then everything he does must naturally be in service to this goal or he is sabotaging himself.
1. If God exists, there would not be horrendous suffering unless horrendous suffering is necessary for our greatest good (i.e. a relationship with God) 2. Horrendous suffering is not necessary for our greatest good 3. Therefore, God does not exist.
I like to think that if there is a God we would just be an experiment. God being neither good nor evil, but deemed by our concience as both good and evil.
So Madway, you see god as watching a painful death, and enjoying the experiment? Watching a tiny child being separated from her parents, and enjoying the experiment? A child born disfigured, and enjoying the experiment? Knowing that a terrible car accident is about to happen, doing nothing, and enjoying the experiment? War, disease, suffering, all preventable by a supposedly all powerful god, but simply an experiment to enjoy? No responsibility. No feeling. Like Melania Trump's jacket: "I REALLY DON'T CARE DO U".
I enjoy the intellectual debates that I continue to watch Matt, Hitchens, Harris, Dennet, Dawkins Krauss and all, but as a simpleton I stick to: 1. Why do 5.2 million children under the age of 5 die EVERY YEAR? 2. Why are there 45,000 denominations of religion ? 3. Why, after 2000 years are people tstill rying to explain and interpret the bible and a cult called 'apologists' ? 4. Read Genesis 19 and Leviticus 10 for a flvor of death and destruction, sex and immorality! 5. Where is the ark of the covenant? 6. Where is Arithamea ( as in Joseph ) ? 7 Where is Noah's ark? 8 Why the cosmos to have a relationship with us on this small speck?.. the Earth would fit into the Sun over 1 MILLION times... the Sun would fit into the largest known star ( Stephenson 2-18 ) over 10 BILLION times by volume...there are supposedly 2 TRILLION galaxies one of which is our own Milky Way at 150,000 light years across ( a light year being 6 TRILLION miles )... the largest known galaxy ( UC1101 ) is 5,5 MILLION light years across and for perpective it would take a human almost 32 years just to count to 1 BILLION This omnihidden god must be a VERY busy boy....
Your my hero Matt! Even though your angry but I understand why.. I also denounced my belief and now the very christian people who asked me for advice and interpretation are now treating me like I Misunderstood and obviously am under spiritual attack and All of a sudden I forget my understanding of the Bible and I’m dumb and confused! When two months ago they were calling me asking me to interpret the book to them and help them understand but now I got struck with a. Case of stupidity apparently so I fully understand why your angry with these people
Im 16, ive been watching you Matt since I was 8. I asked my father where this god was that my family talked about and he showed me some of your show. I was enlightened and amazed. That me a little girl could know and understand more than my peers the adults that raised me!(i was very modest back then XD) when i lost my dad i was very alone. My foster families would force me into religion. For the same reasoning that its wrong to force a hindu into Christianity. Its wrong to force a athist into any religion. We abuse our children by putting them in church so young. Thats the diffrence between beliving to understand then understanding to belive. And children are so easy to manipulate. Manipulate. Why would a god make a world where the best way to understand the world is to have critical evidence. I love you and how you think. Because i do just like it. I just. Thank you. Thank you for speaking. You raised me♡
I think exactly the same thing! I've always felt that the argument of evil in the world was a bad one because they would just come back with the fact that Adam and Eve sinned or something to that effect.
I like the Argument from Evil, as I think that two additional facts need to be included: 1) This is meant to be a benevolent God, therefore, we should not be exposed to acts of evil. 2) This is also meant to be a personal god. So, if it's a personla god, it should be able to relate to the believer and NOT have to have excuses made for it as to why there was a tsunami that killed 2500000 people with no warning.
When Matt was trying to think of 'uplifting music' I was hoping he'd say John Lennon with the words: Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Since I CAN imagine this, and the song is extremely uplifting for humankind, I hope that even Christians should listen to it and receive its uplifting message (with goosebumps and all) and maybe they could use this song in their church, imagine that :)
Both arguments are good and both of them should be used in debates. The main problem with the Problem of Evil is that it doesnt work against any type of "god". But if you use only the problem of Divine Hiddenness, theists may reply "Well, loving someone that you know about is not enough love to deserve heaven and God is just, so he have to make people deserve heaven by not showing himself." That counter-argument shows that they believe in SPECIFIC God and then we can use some other arguments, such as Problem of Evil.
I get your point here about God not revealing himself in obvious ways and I also saw your video about the problem of evil, which is a big one for me, although I am still strongly convicted in the existence of a designer, when it comes to the creation of basic and intelligent life, including consciousness, and the universe with all its physical and mathematical laws, an almost impossible occurence, if based on chance & randomness and atom collisions, and only naturalistic accounts.
The funny thing is that most Christians accept the science of the big bang, evolution and abiogenesis. They simply say those are the tools that He used to create the universe as He wanted. This idea means the universe is actually natural, is it just natural processes that He chose. To my mind the natural laws work to explain the universe as we see it. Calculations done using gravity and relativity correctly show the paths and orbits of planets for example. We certainly don't have all of the answers, but 100% of the answers we do have are always natural explanations.
“Is God willing to make himself known to me, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is of no interest to me. Is he both able and willing? Then why doesn't he do it? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
God: the longest reigning hide and go seek champion.
Absolute waste of a logical mans time. At this point i could care less of he is there are not.
Wait for trumps income taxes, you will see!
@@curtisfranks1556
Truth!!!
It's called "hide and seek"
Pfft.. Americans, can't even get children games right.
@@WhoThisMonkey
Hide and go seek!
I wonder if Matt's old atheist college roommate is going around saying, "I'm the guy who converted Matt Dillahunty".
I'd have that tattooed on my forehead.
He should be invited to the show who is he????
I love you - Patrick star
laughed so hard at this. i also wish they could invite the guy just once and have him tell the story and how he feels about it
I have a tattoo of Matt dillahuntys face on my left ass cheek
My favorite:
- Knock, knock..
- "Who's there?"
- "Jesus. Let me in."
- "Why?"
- "So that I can save you, from what I will do to you, if you don't let me in."
Nasn
- Knock, knock..
- “Who’s there?”
- “Jesus. Let me in.”
- “Why?”
- “So that i can save you, from what i will do to you, if you don’t let me in.”
Whats wrong with that?
Isnt that ehat parents do to help rheir children? That is what GOOD parents do.
I hope you dont have kids. If so, tell them sorry for me.
@@Jamie-Russell-CME GOOD parents don't torture for all eternity.
@@Jamie-Russell-CME Good parents teach and take care of their children so that they can grow up and have a good life in society. The society can be a tough and unforgiving place, but the parents didn't create the society and the rules in it. They are like guides who give you a map of a forest they didn't create or design. They don't have the powers to change it, and they too have lived and struggled through it. Their hands are tied. The best they can do is help you here and there, and give advice. God, on the other hand, is in control of everything, and not only creates the universe in which evil is a possibility, but also creates hell, and creates the rule that whoever doesn't believe in him will go to hell. As you can see, your god, who doesn't exist, is the creator and the designer of evil and torment. He is in control of everything, he can change it anytime or could have made a better universe. Instead, he created a universe full of suffering and set up an assholish rule that nonbelievers and sinners will burn forever for finite crimes. Please don't insult parents by comparing them to Yahweh.
God is so hidden its like its not even there!
+Deconverted Man Exactly lol
+Deconverted Man God's just shy, that's all.
Timothy Mostad Some psychopaths work in mysterious ways.
+Deconverted Man That's because you have your eyes closed.
+GhostHawk1776 How can your god be seen, when you have hidden it outside of time and space, which means you have hidden it even from yourself. That was not a smart move!
I have no words to describe how good it is that this is available online for free.
Matt nailed the point so perfectly when he said we're expected to make rational judgement based on certain criteria that proves itself to work, time and again, but when it comes to the most important information (whether or not God exists) we are told to ignore the very reasoning that works in every other aspect of our lives and "just believe".
I was half tempted to send this video to my religious mother, but then I quickly realized that she would more than likely refuse to even watch it. She and so many other devout Christians see any information that could have the potential to cause doubt, as something from Satan himself, trying to get believers to go astray. Therefore trying to reason with many believers is absolutely futile.
Sadly I've been dealing with the same thoughts.
As have i
Yeah If you really want to believe something, you can believe it. You can believe anything with sufficient personal reasons, and block anything you aren't comfortable with. Doesn't prove you're correct though.
Good choice on not sending it. My mom wouldn’t watch it either. Woman taught Sunday school when I was a child. Her faith is untouchable. I’ve heard that very work of devil to cause doubt. It’s frustrating. Good choice.
Which is why Christianity and Islam are one of the most effective religions. A built in doubting mechanism that no matter how bizarre or absurd things apparently are in reality, all that can be whisked away by satan planting the seeds of doubt. I've given up on being rational to people who are entrenched in their faith. The only Christians where facts and contradictions seems to work on are the ones who are already questioning their belief and actually seeking truth. It's absolutely futile dealing with the other kinds of people. They cherry pick everything. Why is there evil in the world and God hardly ever does anything? Man sinned, it's because of our own doing and Satan is the lord of this earth. Anything good happens? God did it. Praise Jesus..Prayer not work? Was gods plan.
He's just not that into you...
Lol :)
Pure gold :)
The Bible not only contradicts itself, it contradicts practically everything we know about the known universe.
Thanks for all the details. LOL Just love it when village atheists say this stuff and never cite a single example. LOL Yet somehow EVERYTHING we know is contradicts the Bible. Examples please !?!?!
@@karcharias811 Influence of god and DNA replication being nil.
Einsteins field equations macroscopically and Bells inequality generally denying all possible mysterious ways of god, supernatural effects on physical systems, and magical thinking about space, time or velocity.
There are no "hidden variables" when electrons disperse in the double slit, its always physics itself, via wave interference, making this happen.
Nowhere had god in any way manifested himself in any equation or formalism that perfectly works without him.
You could say "but god can suddenly change all that" yeah sure.
Then we just will scientifically reinquire the rules, and if god changes them continuously, no life would be possible due to interactions.
There is no scenario where god poses any relevance.
@@karcharias811I can lay out one at least. 1 Corinthians 14 God is not a god of Confusion but of peace. This claim here is one. God is a god of peace yet allows atrocities done in his name while also not preventing war in any way in the world he has made. He also apparently about clarity over confusion yet there are hundreds of denominations that cant agree on what he said in the bible as well as never communicating with anyone that leads easily to confusion even the people he has communicated with he hardly ever explains himself even as jesus. They would ask jesus a simple question and jesus would create a long drawn out metaphor about his upcoming sacrifice that doesnt really have anything to do with what was asked which confuses everyone not in the know with future sense. God also confuses the way they talk in the story of the tower of babel for apparently no reason in the story. God is a god of Confusion. His name should be Confusion instead of Jealous.
I regret my 12 years as a believer.
+666OccultRock666 My recommendation is to strive to move beyond the attitude of regret. To live one's life with a perpetual feeling of regret is to relinquish control. Perhaps you can find a way to turn your 12 years into a positive learning experience?
I regret my 27 years.
@@clementnade972 Only 27? you were luckier than I.
I quit at age 24.
I regret none of mine. I even studied to be a pastor. Those years helped mold me into who I am today. I am an atheist but I see great value in parables.
I sincerely tried to have a relationship with god. I used to want to believe desperately but couldn't make a blind leap of faith. I called myself agnostic for years , leaving an open door in the hope that one day god may speak to me. I attended progressive churches, always honest about my agnosticism. I finally had to admit that god just didn't exist... and also found an incredible amount of peace.
it's understandable why you believe like that. this is because you are looking for something that does not exist in where it doesn't exist. I would like you to investigate the Quran and Islam (not Muslims - the people) for you will get most of the answers you are looking for.
@@Putiyye Islam and the Quran are as fictional as every other religion.
2 years later, your comment on a random youtube thread is sure to resonate for years to come.
@@Putiyye I mean, muslims worship the same God Christians and Jews worship so ...
@@Putiyye Come on man, lol. Christianity is just Judaism 2.0, and Islam is just Christianity 2.0. Mormonism is Christianity 3.0. The cycle will continue, with fools giving their lives, money, and time to a complete fraud.
My car keys are having a bad case of divine hiddenness ;P
8/10
michael jordan Your ratings just came in. They are about the same ;D
+michael jordan More like 4/10..._at best_. :P
avedic Strangely the reciprocal ratings curve seems to continue to completely match incoming value statements.
*****
Haha that's more credit than I can very well honestly cash in xD
Excellent as usual Matt.
RUSSIAN ROBOT-----theists are too obtuse, lazy, and stubborn to discover TRUTH. Theism is the great LIE because it contains NO TRUTH.
Coincidentally I had a discussion with a youtuber named Charles Grady who actually tried to defend the she bears story as well. They gymnastics believers engage in to believe is,............breathtaking.
I'm not surprised. I've debated Christians that defended rape and child molestation.
And murder.
I've actually had face to face chat with a Christian lad who defended genocide. How sick is that.
My favorite defense was by someone I've met who actually doesn't believe God is a good god, but he worships essentially out of fear. His defense was "Meh, God can be a dick sometimes". I kind of respect him more for that.
+nontheistdavid I'm curious as to what the defense was exactly.
+daSchoof I have several Muslim acquaintances who believe in Allah precisely because He is absolutely powerful, he can absolutely do whatever He wants, whether good or bad (as defined by human beings) so they better worship Him out of fear of reprisal. I too respect them more for their belief because it doesn't pull any punches and it kind of paints counter-arguments into a corner with very few effective responses. Problem is is that this reason for belief kind of makes them really boring conversationalists about everything I've ever talked to them about. Probably why they are only acquaintances and not friends.
Tjaart Blignaut
I will try and find the thread for you.
I'm a Baylor alum. I am not sure who sanctioned this, but I am glad they did, and I am thankful you came. Unfortunately, two years ago, I would have likely still been too rigid in my faith to have attended. I found you on CZcams over the Christmas break. Been struggling with my faith for a long time, but I am now about nearly free from it. It's hard letting go of something that has been such a huge part of my life for more than 30 years. I guess I'm still in a mourning stage. It surprises me a little that I have found myself liberating myself from my faith while going to a Christian school. Maybe I shouldn't be. Anyway, thank you.
Nobody sanctioned this, myself and a few other members of the atheist club at Baylor organized it without permission. Nearly got expelled for it.
Fellow Baylor grad here, thanks for sharing!
@@KatanaZeroEnjoyer wow, I would love to hear more about this! Was this ok campus, why would the expel you?
@@teachpeace3750 Baylor is a christian campus that does not allow atheist speakers. But we just kind of…took the stage, put Dillahunty on it, had a crowd of about 50 or so, and they couldn’t do anything about it. After the show they threatened that if we ever did anything like that again we’d all be expelled.
@@KatanaZeroEnjoyer Well that blows!
What other options are there for your education? I would say just do it again and see what they do, but without knowing your circumstances it could be unwise and wildly impractical to throw away perhaps your only chance at higher education.
As a christian who is slowly walking away from the faith, this has been my greatest frustration. This notion that we can have a relationship with God, but it was always so one sided. I didn't understand why God would seemingly speak to other people and not me. So I came to the conclusion that He does n't want a relationship with me while being told that actually he does and the reason he does not speak to me is because i don't have strong enough faith. Nothing makes sense here.
The problem you are having is one of the 1st steps I had in my journey to atheism
That's because the Abrahamic god is fictional.
go read your bible instead of drifting away in isolated thinkings
@@ArthurAgamenon_ What will that do?
@@scottgodlewski306 Bro, the guy in the comments clearly didn't had any reserach but just used his feeling of "one sided relationship" as an argument. How could you ask me what study will do? Where in the world an argument of " If God acts in a way that is not the way I am thinking that he is suposed to do, so he doesn't exist". Did you see how foolish is this?
This thing about 'free will' from the Christian perspective is flawed as i see it. It's not a true free will in the sense that I have a free choice, I'm being coerced to accept Jesus. Why can't i say "Thanks but no thanks" without having a form of threat hanging over me. I certainly don't want to be in a perpetual damnation scenario when i die, I'm not choosing that over Christ, I'm rejecting both Christ AND Eternal damnation. My free will is to choose neither.
+bonnie43uk Underrated post, and I 100% agree and never thought about it this way. It really is like we live in a universe with a cosmic mafia boss. How is it freedom if you have a gun to your head?
+bonnie43uk maybe that is the test ... to realize there is more choices than 2 ?
Well said, Bonnie. I agree. The whole idea of free will is a fallacy. Religion is largely based on coercion. I'm with you; I reject anyone or anything that is trying to manipulate me.
In Matt's words, it's having about the same level of freedom as the mafia boss threatening you to do what they tell you or they'll torture and kill you.
@@botousai at the end of the day if u have a gun to your head, u still have a choice. You can choose to either get down or lay down. Free will only accounts for the ability to choose not the choices we have available.
I appreciate how understanding he is regarding religious organizations and those in charge of them. I have had a few cynical friends who perceive religion as a method of control and that anyone higher up in the hierarchy of whatever sect or denomination or church is just there to knowingly and willfully control people for their own benefit. But having grown up in a Christian household and being forced to go to church every Sunday of every week, I know that that's not the case (or at least almost never). They're in those positions because they fully believe and have faith in the doctrine they follow. As he said, they came from the bottom.
I wholeheartedly agree. And, thanks, Matt, for one of the most compelling talks I've heard, from both your mind and heart. It's gently conveyed, showing empathy for the Christian sincerely seeking truth (such as you were). There's nothing more that a Christian responds to than personal testimony that they might hopefully be able to relate to. :O)
Any argument that comes down to 'free will' really bugs me. If God's omniscience includes the ability to know the minutia of every future event (and I've yet to meet a Christian that claims otherwise), that means he created the universe with _full_ knowledge of every act of evil that would occur. Thus he could have modified his design for creation to unfold in any way he wished... making evil not just something that he allowed, but something that he _planned_.
Good point. Suffering too. Evil and suffering is what he planned on. What a great guy
And it means that he knew that certain ones of us who wholeheartedly sought him for decades upon decades would eventually come to a very rational conclusion that he doesn't exist, in the 100% absence of any evidence or interaction from him. He knew this, yet failed to reveal himself to us while dropping little hints to others on a daily basis which removed any and all doubts that he may not exist.
That makes our lives a very unfair game of Simon says, where even if you play the game flawlessly you might still spend eternity in unfathomable agony.
No such good could possibly call himself JUST
A lecture at Baylor? Props to a Christian University for inviting you!
In regards to the problem of evil, it isn't about what we know and God does, but rather the claim that God is all-powerful. If he can know, and do anything, in fact, everything comes from him (they claim), then it doesn't matter what we don't know. God should have a solution that does not include violence and suffering and evil to the extent it exists. To argue God had no other recourse but to allow evil, is to say it wasn't possible. NOTHING should be impossible for God. A world with free will and devoid of evil should be possible (it is in heaven according to them).
I've thought on that with the israelites more than once. I get excuses like "oh but they HAD to rape, murder, and pillage their enemies, that was the cuuuuuulture back then" _bull shit_ , if you're claiming omnipotence, God could have easily went around softening the hearts of their enemies so they'd immediately surrender and convert just by the israelites asking nicely and offering gift baskets.
-Why is there evil and death in the world? -Well a creator linked not compliance to evil and that with natural decay and suffering... somehow he thought it was a perfect idea!
-Why doesn't he get rid of evil? -Well, he will eventually. Is not a top priority for a loving God... and perfect procrastinator.
Remember that you are like a child and God is like an absent parent.Maybe that is the best possible parenting... you do not know more than God! God knows!
This is really well done. I’ve never quite been a believer but here been among believers all my life. Thank you for this Matt, it was illuminating.
Always a pleasure to listen to you Matt.
Good job Matt. Keep up your good work. I was confused about religion before I started watching you on the Atheist experience show. You opened my eyes about the BS that is religion, and now I'm an Atheist. Thanks.
Matt is an excellent and captivating lecturer on this subject. You can see his heart is in this and if you add to that his knowledge about the topic, then you get a great lecture.
I always love Matt's videos. It's always my treat of the week.
12:10 I mean _I'm_ mad. While they didn't explicitly lie to me, they knowingly withheld huge chunks of the bible _that they knew were there_ with the intent of making the bible out to be more pleasant and consistent in its message than it was. _That's_ why I'm mad.
Though I have been surprised to find the number of times they in fact _did not_ know things were in there because they had never read those parts either. The chain of that mess goes back as far as the religion's conception.
Matt, you are awesome, thank you for sharing your great knowledge. My knowledge is multiple times stronger because of you. So grateful you exist while I exist!
I totally agree with this smart guy.
Very good explanation of the argument. The best i have seen so far
Great job Matt. I've been looking for someone to discuss these types of things. It's so much more effective in encouraging critical thinking.
One more thing about the problem of Free will: So god gave me free will to chose. Free will is very important to him. But he sends each and every one of us onto this world already carrying the sin of Adam and Eve. How does that work ?
Not only that, but if "free will" is the ability to choose good (when you are born a sinner already) then according to the most common belief about heaven, there will be no free will in heaven. People will be free from sin in heaven, therefore unable to choose to sin. If this is the case, God could have just created humans IN heaven knowing in advance when ones of the countless souls that would have existed, would choose to follow him.
The whole thing makes ZERO sense when you give it just a few minutes of thought.
this is the base to all atheist go to heaven. ...you die but you still have your free will...so you see god does exist....and you choose heaven. ...no where does it say you lose your free when you die
Philip Reynolds It doesn't say that. But it doesn't say that the answer to the problem of evil is free will either. There is a very strong case to be made about determinism, and that God has chosen who will be drawn to him. That puts the theist in an even worse position regarding the problem of evil. However, if free will IS the source of all evil, then logic dictates that free will has to go in heaven. Satan rebelled against God and sinned while in heaven. But the bible says we won't. So you don't really have that many options.
Erato...a very good and we'll thought out ansewer.....but I'll stick to my belief that I have free will after death... You did good
Philip Reynolds Thanks. Keep your mind open.
“You can’t understand things the way god can,” is an utter failure. It assumes a circular argument - that the god in question exists. The problem of evil remains. It would be better for them to say, “If there were such a god, you wouldn’t be able to understand things,” but that doesn’t change the meaning of omnipotent and omnibenevolent, so the problem of evil remains.
This was one of the biggest reasons (out of many) why I renounced my faith. Sooooo many circular thoughts and ad hoc explanations to things.
MacacoVerde Yes, and so many of those ad hoc explanations contradict one another. I posted elsewhere that many apologists argue both that their god’s morals are eternal *and* that the pro-slavery verses had to be there because that was just how things were back then.
Someone responded that he didn’t know any apologists who did that, then proceeded to do it himself over the course of a few replies *and* cite as evidence (for different points) three apologists who gave those two contradictory explanations.
Midway through my third cover to cover reading of the bible, I just stopped believing. I wish that I had back all the time and money that I had wasted trying to force myself into that box.
I find it very endearing that Matt’s musical tastes are that of a high school theater and choir kid in the late 90s
Tori Amos and Phantom of the Opera. Dude come on. Just say Beethoven's 9th or Kind of Blue
I'm becoming a big fan. you are a great speaker.
~ Thank you, Matt, for intellect and truth and critical thinking as always!! I still want my life back (Catholic), my foreskin back, and my innocence also returned intact. Wordplay and word salad indeed from the religious delusional folks! Cheers, DAVEDJ ~
Another bout of brilliance! And so very true.
One of my favorite arguements
My atheism has nothing to do with either the Problem of Evil or Divine Hiddenness. My belief failed due to the contradictions, the failed prophecy, the historical and physical inaccuracy, and the immorality of the Bible. Eden's first flaw is omniscience, and rejection breaks down the concept of original sin; the Flood, omniscience and omnibenevolence go out, and the story disproven with scientific observation; Job, a fable of pointless cruelty; Babel breaks down in dozens of ways; the Exodus, having no record of proof or physical evidence, breaks down the entirety of the Laws and Moses; Jesus' birth story contradictions breaks down prophecy and New Testament reliability; the Gospel's reliance on the old laws, support for slavery, giving all to enemies and taking no thought for tomorrow, and failed prophecy destroys the remainder. Hence, no need to even get to the point of disproving a god, when the Bible is enough to reduce belief to deism at most in the first place, and logical reduction reduces the remaining deistic agnosticism to rational position of agnostic atheist.
+fowlfables Unfortunately most people are retarded and cannot follow (A therefore B therefore C etc.).If one just started with the "omni" problem and followed it on from purely logical standpoint like you or started from lack of evidence for Exodus-->no Moses-->no 10 commandments-->etc. But no.
All this talk of nothing:apologists doing somersaults to prove their point and people like Matt here doing verbal gymnastics to oppose them.All this for nothing-there never was,is or will be a proof of God (yes,the big G one).
This is because a true God-the one they have been trying to sell me and people before me was the "omni-all" God-not this puny ass " powerful alien" Matt is claiming God is.THAT WAS the God of Christianity.And that god is not only logically impossible (the question of God vs stone is not as foolish as Matt claims in the context of internal inconsistency of the definition in question) but also not supported by any sciences (anthropology ,paleontology, history,physics etc.).People are just...very,very,very stupid.Or/and misinformed.
+TheSleep Les yeah god changes with every generation. I guess the God people (American) worship today is the Omni present god of prosperity (aka lottery/sow your seed) , and power .
I got you a challenge. take the Quran and study it and try to prove it wrong or inconsistent (by showing contradictions to science, logic or itself)
@@Putiyye you could literally Google that and find mountains of times people have shown the Quran doesn't make sense.
There's tons of secular music that can fill me with awe or evoke some other strong emotional response. I can't help tearing up at the sheer *beauty* of it when I listen to Pat Benatar's _We Belong_ especially when the choir of kids join in - Pat's voice is an absolute delight as it is and the harmony of the kids just nails it home. Rachel Platten's _Fight Song_ Crosby, Stills and Nash's _Teach Your Children_ 10cc's _For You and I_ Billy Joel's _You're Only Human_ Bob Marley's _Three Little Birds_ Dobie Gray's _Drift Away_ - the list is nearly endless. I can be lifted up when I'm down, lifted higher when I'm not.
I sometimes feel in absolute awe that something so amazing and evocative as music can be created by humans. Not because we're "not worthy" or "too base" but because the music seems to transcend the mundane into uncharted territories. It doesn't feel like it belongs in the physical world even though the instruments and voices that make it, and the people who composed and wrote it, do.
Religion certainly does not have the monopoly on beautiful or evocative music. In fact, although I've encountered some pleasant and/or innocuously-phrased religious songs, I've also found a lot that sound terrible and/or have objectionable (on moral grounds) lyrics.
If a number of Christmas songs supposedly "celebrating" the birth of humankind's saviour sound more like funeral dirges penned by a suicidally-depressed person, then there's probably something fundamentally wrong. If your "uplifting" songs are jingoistic and sound like a call to arms to suppress or smite the unbelievers, there's definitely something wrong.
I used to think I felt the holy spirit in church. Until I went to an ed Sheeran concert and felt the exact same thing... And so the first seeds for atheism were planted
@@Benjamin-yz7jp Thank you for your input. :)
Matt, thank you for being you.
I remember an elder telling me that if god were to reveal himself it will basically force me into believing in him therefore violating my free will.
My response was “I freely consent of my own free will to know of Gods existence.”
He quickly changed the subject.
what a delightful young man
"Young" is the key word.
Also the fact that his parents moved house every 5 years,which I think he mentioned.
He not trying to figure out "God", really.
That's not his struggle or confusion.
He kept talking about a career in preaching in that Southern Baptist environment as if that's what His will is suppose to be for him. He assumed things about God, and then he wonders why God would be like that.
Crickets. For a Doubting Thomas.
He's barely started on his human journey. But he seems like a nice guy,
and Doubt is the other side of Faith.
Why? In it, not of it.
He may be done with 'God' as a concept, but God's not done with him. From the abstract 'Word', to the existential Word-became-flesh-and-dwelt-among-us, it can be quite a trip.
So crickets for now, but To Be Continued... Not quite a period, but a semi-colon.
Cheers.
+Billy Mandalay
I'd like some dressing with that word salad.
Someone should make him aware of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
Don't age stereotype people. Older does not always mean wiser. Life's journey is different for everyone, and some people have a really hash time right off the bat. Also, there are 70 year old atheists...so if older is wiser then we have a stalemate. Using age to defend God is a foolish argument. Good day to you.
To accept that God allows evil for reasons perfectly sufficient for God [13:00], the theist concedes that they cannot know the mind or will of God and therefore cannot claim to understand divine morality at any level. Thus, such an answer is not only bankrupt of any explanatory power, but acknowledges that morality MUST be derived and interpreted by man because God plays by rules we cannot understand. While I appreciate Matt's points on Divine Hiddenness, there are a host of cascading philosophical consequences for theists who use ignorance as a defense to the problem of evil.
I don't think explanatory power has any meaning when talking about things which do not manifest any effect - though just wanted to chime in that you seem to have jumped from specifics to generalities to specifics again within the main point you were getting across - it does not follow that because you do not know someone's reasoning for something in particular that you know nothing of them or could know nothing of them on any other item... especially when they're magic.
If you haven't checked it out go watch the debate between Matt and sye that he references with this comment, sye is a deplorable asshat but he's not arguing from such a weak position.... err... well i mean it is an absurdly weak position, but not in that way... actually it's perhaps not fair to ascribe some level of strength to it, it's just an assertion really.
" While I appreciate Matt's points on Divine Hiddenness, there are a host of cascading philosophical consequences for theists who use ignorance as a defense to the problem of evil."
I agree. The best and most simple being that if God allows evil for "reasons we don't know", then we do not know if the reasons are Good, moral and Just. It is just as likely that he is doing them for malicious, evil, immoral reasons (if we don't know what the reason or reasons are or is). .
If you don't know the reason, then why are they assuming it is for Good, moral, Just reasons?
It is a bit of a clincher. "We can't understand God's morality" and yet they want to claim that this huge book is a perfect reflection of that exact same morality? A bit of a problem for them, for sure. Apologism has never been about truth, it's been about coming up with excuses that sound plausible enough to get you to stop thinking about it.
Thank you,Matt for just being you!
It's a Shame. God is simply the Existence of Love. Everyone Obviously Believes Love Exists.
Atheists Unnecessarily Overcomplicate it.
Its Unfortunate.
This is so well articulated and presented, even better than hitch, Harris or Dawkins addressed the idea.
Finally a Matt Dillahunty video where the comments aren't disabled. The Atheist Experience is a fantastic show.
Comments are enabled on all of my videos.
I mean The Atheist Experience has no comment section. It makes me sad.
Matt Dillahunty The best videos are from Matt and Tracie.
+Matt Dillahunty
Keep up the Great Work!!!
Can you do a segment about Sleep Paralysis vs Night Demon or something that explains this Phenomenon...
Please :)
Basically, what's your thoughts on this topic?
Thank You :)
Matt Dillahunty I didn't think this was the real Matt Dillahunty until I saw who owns the channel. I just got done with a podcast on the Syrian refugees and I've learned SOOO much from watching your show. I really appreciate the service you've done for the atheist community.
Great lecture. I will no longer use the argument of evil.
I don't think that's necessary. You can still talk about animal suffering especially, since they don't have souls and everything, and apparently just here to give us humans food... (according to Genesis).
+jehovasinz Check out Stephen Law's Evil god challenge.
It gets around the traditional roadblocks.
+jehovasinz Why not? It's one of the arguments I hear the most from people when asked what led them to leave their faith. To apologists it's not convincing sure (theodicy), but not every believer is an apologist.
+hingeslevers okay, I see your point.
The point about "Satan/Free will" is the best argument against the non-appearance of God. Superb. If I got nothing else from this video, I got that. A brilliant refutation.
Intellectual honesty is so important when discussing these topics. How often have you watched a Theist video that starts by looking at an argument for God, but then saying "That's not a good argument because x, y, and z...".
Nice vid Matt.
Matt i would like to shake your hands
Matt Dillahunty saved my mind.
Dillahunty stole your mind. ''They eat my people like bread.'' (Bible) Read my comment to Dillahunty in the main thread.
@@MegaSage007if you're using the bible as a source, you're on shaky ground to start with bud
NeoVelocity Ed wouldn’t understand
@@MegaSage007 When will you ppl understand that not everyone reads your book
@@MegaSage007 ...poor Ed...he's been convinced circular arguments are valid...
....love this video.... EXCELLENT !!
I'm right there with you Matt on most of what you say here; the argument from 'Divine Hiddenness' is what started me (very recently) on my road away from religion and faith. My conclusion is that either there is no God or if there is a God he doesn't care about us enough to have any real, tangible, intelligible interaction with us.
The problem with concluding that god knows better than we do, and that's why he allows and or performs evil, is that anyone can do this with any atrocity committed by a god or even a human.
A person could say "What Hitler did was okay, because he knew something we don't, if only we knew what he knew, we would see what he did was the right thing."
Anyone can justify any atrocity with that line of reasoning.
Interesting point
That's actually a good point.
For me though, saying that God _might_ have a reason is a useless statement because he _might not_ have a reason, and he's been known to kill without reason before: See Job 1:18,2:3
If there is anyone out there who is not a human and who understands what I am saying and who wants me to know you exist, please let me know.
All the power in the universe, but not the power to create a CZcams account and reply to a comment.
It's amazing how our goose bumps are driven by the same music! Check out this rendition of "Cavatina" theme from "The Deer Hunter"
Excellent. Great stuff at the end starting around 25:00
re Divine Hiddenness, love the girlfriend reference.
I really like Darkmatter2525's take on Free Will. Set up a scenario where 1 person chooses to commit rape and murder 1 other person who doesn't want to be raped and murdered. By default the free will of the person being raped and murdered is being infringed upon. So 1 persons free will has been taken away by 1 other person's. If God is capable of stopping said rape and murder, if God is all good and would want to stop any and all evil from happening, and knew that said rape and murder was occurring - being omnipresent, then you would have to conclude that God would stop it from happening. When you bring up the argument that he gave us free will and therefore bad things happen - you then lost the argument. God must then be evil, or at least God wants the rape and murder of the 1 person stated before. Remember, that person's free will is already being taken away by the other person, so if God were to interfere with our free will and stop it from happening, God would only be affecting the free will of one person - the rapist/murderer. So you have to ask yourself, if you were God, would you let the rapist's and murderer's free will continue, or would you give free will back to the person being raped and murdered. Either way, free will is being infringed upon, and it still seems like there is a better option for God.
Yup. If free will exists, free will is actually evidence against Gods existence! (see Schellenberg's paper, "Free Will Offense")
i don't think it's a good argument. just because you can't _exercise_ your free will doesn't mean you lost your free will. water makes things wet, but if it's on a hydrophobic surface - that doesn't mean water has lost its property to make things wet, it just means that in this particular situation, the water can't act on its ability to make things wet.
so while it's certainly an interesting argument that i haven't heard before, it is in fact a bad one.
At around 22:08 when you started talking about a real reason you're an atheist it could almost be word for word how I would explain how I felt during that time in my life!
Awesomely honed arguments.
the problem of evil is why i became an athiest
I get why Matt doesn't really like it, but if you really think into it... there's a quality of difference for allowing say a bad injury collision, that you can learn and grow from the experience, versus young children being trafficked and forced to be sex slaves and all the horrid, irreparable, life-long trauma from that.
Assumptions! All the way down.
***** no shit mate.
***** ok... Now you can just fuck off.
+iggypopshot Turtles, all the way down!
Riplee86 yaaaaaay!!
***** no you! Fuck off twice, and hard in the face fuck off.
Hey Matt! Love your videos!
Though you've done this countless times on the show, I've noticed that you've never actually done a stand-alone "Atheist Debates" video about clearing up common misconceptions about 'atheism' and 'agnosticism'.
A lot of my friends and people I know still do not seem to understand the difference between "atheism" and "agnosticm" and what they are.
And I would love to send them a video where you explain these things. Hopefully waking some of them up to the fact that they've been atheists all along.
Of course, if anyone happens to already know a video like that which clears up these conceptions just as nicely as Matt might've done it, I'm all ears!
I loved this video!!!
Christians apparently can tell YOU about YOUR relationship with god, but you cannot possibly comment on theirs.
That's the thing - they are more than happy to strawman the shit out of you - "you believe that nothing exploded and we came from a rock!"
I think his argument as to why the Problem of Evil doesn't work works just as well against Divine Hiddenness. Someone can say, "God has his reasons that he doesn't reveal himself to everyone" because not every believer or Christian claims that Christianity is about Jesus/God wanting a personal relationship. None of that "personal relationship" stuff they talk about is Biblical and I've had Christians agree with me on that. Calvinists especially would not give two shits about the argument from divine hiddenness, they think people are predestined to Heaven or Hell and God has to give salvation as a gift.
At one point Matt says something along the lines of "I have a brain that works" explaining how he can judge God for his hiddenness but could we not say the same about evil? I have a brain that can think and reason and I experience suffering that cannot be reconciled with the idea of a perfectly good omnipotent God that helps people and intervenes in human affairs. We are the ones who suffer as a result of evil, and God (as a perfect being) cannot suffer at all, we have every right to judge God based on the existence of evil. Also, if the person is Christian than they more than likely believe the ultimate good God is working toward is getting as many people into Heaven as possible, in which case evil should not exist at all... there simply is no reason God could have for random every day suffering and evil in the BIG PICTURE of trying to get lot's of people to Heaven. Sure Christians might see that objection as a good one but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with the Problem of Evil, it means there's something wrong with the objection to it.
It's a bit like Josh Feuersteins argument with the circle. Yeah hypothetically God COULD have some reason, out there in that sphere of knowledge we don't know or can't grasp but this is a God the VAST majority of theists claim they do know things about... and the things they claim they do know directly contradict the idea of there being some good cosmic reason for why tsunamis, earthquakes and inoperable brain tumors are a thing.
Just because theists can formulate a bad excuse doesn't mean we should abandon the argument. As much as I appreciate Matt trying to push us in the direction of fruitful arguments there are people I've talked to who are atheists as a result of the Problem of Evil. Even Bart Ehrman credits his atheism not to his Biblical studies but to the Problem of Evil.
I've heard an interesting deist approach: God has set the wheels in motion and is just watching the world unfold. Everyone, even before their birth, is destined to either Heaven or Hell. Why worship then, at all? Because all people that are destined to Heaven worship God. It's not to earn the ticket, but for yourself to believe that you go there. It's so backwards and I love it.
+TitenSxull I agree that The Problem of Evil and The Problem of Divine Hiddenness have the same weaknesses of there being theoretically possible excuses for them, so I really don't understand why Matt thinks The Problem of Divine Hiddenness is better (I made a post to Matt's Problem of Evil video to that effect). God could just have his reasons that are incomprehensible to humans for both allowing evil and waiting to communicate with some who sincerely seek him.
I also agree that both are rightfully pretty convincing to many people to not believe. I made a post to Matt's The Problem of Evil video outlining why it is not reasonable to believe that there are any omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent gods in the face of the evidence of children being horrifically killed by natural disaster.
Well Matt explained the difference:
Evil is a somewhat vague term. People have been trying to come up with definitions of what is good and what is evil for centuries. There are popular problems like the Trolley Problem that might not have an answer. This could be true for god: Maybe acting would make god just as evil, as not acting.
A relationship on the other hand is a pretty will defined term. If you want a relationship of any kind with somebody you have to at least communicate with them in some way. It doesn't have to be spoken language or messages. Body language might suffice. The Christian god supposedly wants a loving relationship with everybody, but then doesn't communicate. That's a simple contradiction.
In general I don't think the argument "God might have a reason we don't understand." has any more merit than "Maybe there just is no god.". Both are just assumptions.
***** Well, the things that Matt thought were differences were either not a difference [both arguments are geared toward an omnimax god only, both arguments have theoretically possible answers- but no logically necessary answers (Trolley Problem for one)] or pretty easy to deal with ("evil" as a vague term).
As for "evil" being a somewhat vague term, it is a simple task to just not use the word "evil" when presenting The Problem of Evil. You don't have to announce ahead of time that you are presenting The Problem of Evil. You can instead just say things like, but not limited to, "it is not reasonable to believe that there are any omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent gods in the face of the evidence of children being horrifically killed by natural disaster."
Like The Problem of Evil, The Problem of Divine Hiddenness has theoretically possible- but no logically necessary answers. As you say, "The Christian god supposedly wants a loving relationship with everybody, but then doesn't communicate." This appears to be a contradiction, but it is not necessarily a contradiction as there are theoretically possible answers to it such as, but not limited to, 'God might have a reason we don't understand,' and 'the alleged seeker is in denial and not actually sincere in his seeking of God.' And you are right, the above, theoretically possible, speculative answers have no more merit than, "Maybe there just is no god." That is why the problems of Evil and Divine Hiddenness remain problems for believers in omnimax gods.
***** The thing is though that the Problem of Evil has two facets, it includes both human caused suffering like murder AND unnecessary suffering from natural disasters like earthquakes. It's not just about EVIL it's about suffering, unnecessary suffering usually, that's why believers employ the "well you don't know, that suffering may serve a purpose in the bigger picture. It may actually be for the best" excuse that Matt is talking about. The excuse that "this might be the best possible world that includes Free Will" doesn't explain why child cancer and volcanic eruptions that bury whole cities are a thing it can only be an excuse for why God doesn't stop murderers and rapists (and its a bad excuse at that).
After thinking about it though I think I understand why Matt said what he did. He is talking to a Texas audience, most of the Christians they would interact with WILL be the "personal relationship" crowd. I think he may just have tailored the speech to that area of the country. People in the south or in the Bible Belt may have a better chance of talking to friends and family using the Divine Hiddemness argument.
I would be really interested in your exposition of contradictions that aren't contradictions... Much needed!!
That's a fascinating angle to that question.
It touches on a topic that I like discussing which is God's Intent.
Yes, if this God character's main company motto is: "to have a relationship with these small humans", then everything he does must naturally be in service to this goal or he is sabotaging himself.
1. If God exists, there would not be horrendous suffering unless horrendous suffering is necessary for our greatest good (i.e. a relationship with God)
2. Horrendous suffering is not necessary for our greatest good
3. Therefore, God does not exist.
I like to think that if there is a God we would just be an experiment.
God being neither good nor evil, but deemed by our concience as both good and evil.
So Madway, you see god as watching a painful death, and enjoying the experiment?
Watching a tiny child being separated from her parents, and enjoying the experiment?
A child born disfigured, and enjoying the experiment?
Knowing that a terrible car accident is about to happen, doing nothing, and enjoying the experiment?
War, disease, suffering, all preventable by a supposedly all powerful god, but simply an experiment to enjoy?
No responsibility. No feeling. Like Melania Trump's jacket: "I REALLY DON'T CARE DO U".
I enjoy the intellectual debates that I continue to watch Matt, Hitchens, Harris, Dennet, Dawkins Krauss and all, but as a simpleton I stick to:
1. Why do 5.2 million children under the age of 5 die EVERY YEAR?
2. Why are there 45,000 denominations of religion ?
3. Why, after 2000 years are people tstill rying to explain and interpret the bible and a cult called 'apologists' ?
4. Read Genesis 19 and Leviticus 10 for a flvor of death and destruction, sex and immorality!
5. Where is the ark of the covenant?
6. Where is Arithamea ( as in Joseph ) ?
7 Where is Noah's ark?
8 Why the cosmos to have a relationship with us on this small speck?.. the Earth would fit into the Sun over 1 MILLION times... the Sun would fit into the largest known star ( Stephenson 2-18 ) over 10 BILLION times by volume...there are supposedly 2 TRILLION galaxies one of which is our own Milky Way at 150,000 light years across ( a light year being 6 TRILLION miles )... the largest known galaxy ( UC1101 ) is 5,5 MILLION light years across and for perpective it would take a human almost 32 years just to count to 1 BILLION
This omnihidden god must be a VERY busy boy....
Thanks Matt!
it feels like the last part either gets cut off in the middle or perhaps you didn't edit early enough. still great talk. great subject. great video.
Hoy crap! Sarah McLachlan and Tori Amos??? I knew I liked Matt Dillahunty for a reason!
Don't forget about Alison Krauss! Lol.
Your my hero Matt! Even though your angry but I understand why.. I also denounced my belief and now the very christian people who asked me for advice and interpretation are now treating me like I
Misunderstood and obviously am under spiritual attack and All of a sudden I forget my understanding of the Bible and I’m dumb and confused! When two months ago they were calling me asking me to interpret the book to them and help them understand but now I got struck with a. Case of stupidity apparently so I fully understand why your angry with these people
clear and logical presentation.
i cannont wait for his book.
God has to be the absolute weakest entity ever because god always needs people to defend him, even a 5 year old child can defend himself to a point.
1 word; BOLLOCKS.
Im 16, ive been watching you Matt since I was 8. I asked my father where this god was that my family talked about and he showed me some of your show. I was enlightened and amazed. That me a little girl could know and understand more than my peers the adults that raised me!(i was very modest back then XD) when i lost my dad i was very alone. My foster families would force me into religion. For the same reasoning that its wrong to force a hindu into Christianity. Its wrong to force a athist into any religion. We abuse our children by putting them in church so young. Thats the diffrence between beliving to understand then understanding to belive. And children are so easy to manipulate. Manipulate. Why would a god make a world where the best way to understand the world is to have critical evidence. I love you and how you think. Because i do just like it. I just. Thank you. Thank you for speaking. You raised me♡
Great Talk!
And it was on this day that I found out I've known about divine hiddenness for as long as I've been an atheist without even knowing it.
I think exactly the same thing! I've always felt that the argument of evil in the world was a bad one because they would just come back with the fact that Adam and Eve sinned or something to that effect.
I like the Argument from Evil, as I think that two additional facts need to be included:
1) This is meant to be a benevolent God, therefore, we should not be exposed to acts of evil.
2) This is also meant to be a personal god. So, if it's a personla god, it should be able to relate to the believer and NOT have to have excuses made for it as to why there was a tsunami that killed 2500000 people with no warning.
Maybe your best Patreon video yet!
wow !! this is excellent! ...!
Great video.
When Matt was trying to think of 'uplifting music' I was hoping he'd say John Lennon with the words:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Since I CAN imagine this, and the song is extremely uplifting for humankind, I hope that even Christians should listen to it and receive its uplifting message (with goosebumps and all) and maybe they could use this song in their church, imagine that :)
9:52 - 10:25 solid advice, thanks
A relationship by definition requires a person before you in a kind of physical form.
Both arguments are good and both of them should be used in debates. The main problem with the Problem of Evil is that it doesnt work against any type of "god". But if you use only the problem of Divine Hiddenness, theists may reply "Well, loving someone that you know about is not enough love to deserve heaven and God is just, so he have to make people deserve heaven by not showing himself." That counter-argument shows that they believe in SPECIFIC God and then we can use some other arguments, such as Problem of Evil.
The difference regarding faith is what is driving the faith
"If you wanted a relationship with me, would you go about it the way your god has?
If not, why not?"
I get your point here about God not revealing himself in obvious ways and I also saw your video about the problem of evil, which is a big one for me, although I am still strongly convicted in the existence of a designer, when it comes to the creation of basic and intelligent life, including consciousness, and the universe with all its physical and mathematical laws, an almost impossible occurence, if based on chance & randomness and atom collisions, and only naturalistic accounts.
The funny thing is that most Christians accept the science of the big bang, evolution and abiogenesis. They simply say those are the tools that He used to create the universe as He wanted. This idea means the universe is actually natural, is it just natural processes that He chose.
To my mind the natural laws work to explain the universe as we see it. Calculations done using gravity and relativity correctly show the paths and orbits of planets for example. We certainly don't have all of the answers, but 100% of the answers we do have are always natural explanations.
“Is God willing to make himself known to me, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is of no interest to me.
Is he both able and willing? Then why doesn't he do it?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
"Girlfriend at another school." Love it.
i see lots of apologists twist and turn to defend god, matt's explanation easily refuted them. an i'm watching this in 2021