Hit And Run Fighters - The Hardest Characters To Play | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
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- čas přidán 14. 03. 2024
- Character difficulty is obviously subjective and can differ based on circumstance, but one archetype in particular that I think many people consider more challenging to play and master are Hit and Run Fighters. Today I want to talk about how I believe they might be the HARDEST characters to play.
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#SSBU #Characters #Archetypes - Hry
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ZSS Sux
Did you let Marss Control your channel for a second
We should call him Varss for this 🔥🔥🔥😂
@@grimsdol4665He is Marss subscriber. Has bigger brain. Could also be you! 🤷♂️
bottom 1 unfortunately 😔
Marss moment lmao
These characters hit hard, but not as hard as heavies, have strong aggression but can’t capitalize on it as much as rushdown characters and because of this, they’re forced to repeatedly reset to neutral in a game where one poor neutral interaction can lead to death
This is basically it
Well said.
as someone who only plays smash for fun but still watches those videos cause of Vars, I can agree
playing zss will take years off your life 😂
Yea but In competitive play the heavies are “harder” mostly due to being all pretty meh at best.
Capping out at B tier bowser for your options can only get you so far.
Greninja mentioned 10/10 video
Real
Hey Error
I mained Greninja for probably 2 years and the reason I dropped was exactly the points outlined in this video. 1- Very inconsistent kill pressure made even worse by his abysmal hitbox consistency. I felt often I would lose games on bad luck with platforms, stage positioning, and hitbox drops and my opponents would then live to 200. And then there was 2- matchup knowledge in a nearly 100 character game. I felt like I needed to play nearly every matchup drastically different, and at one point had a spreadsheet with key moves, playstyle etc. It was too mentally exhausting, and at some point I went “why don’t I just play Fox or Roy and play the exact same way every game?”So I did and have been way happier for it lol.
Most Greninja I face online kill themselves on the 1st stock. 😅
Might be just because I'm bad, it probably is, I dislike fighting greninjas cuz I can't touch him, I play little Mac and Terry which... Makes some sense but I always lose to Greninja because the neutral is in their hands... I'm not saying he's good, just providing my opinion, I don't blame you for wanting to switch or any of your decisions.
@@dolpheeas a terry main the greninja matchup is very annoying
@@wealisify9245 That's weird, because as a Greninja player, I also hate the Terry matchup lol. Maybe I'm bad, but it feels like I lose every interaction when Terry throws out a hitbox, and his weird body movement when he winds up for a lot of moves messes up with Gren's strained spacing.
Then he wasn't your character. His pressure is better with his burst options and hes safer.
I think that these characters CAN shine, but as you say in other videos, players are looking for high punish game and low margin for error. Characters like Cloud and Mario have high enough speed to stay evasive enough, while still maintaining tools to force openings. They CAN hit and run, but don’t have to.
Cloud is hit and run and Mario is best played defensively.
The Yu-Gi-Oh Master Duel music is making my Maxx "C" PSTD spike
I never thought I'd be hearing the master duel home music anywhere
Did a double take too lol. Thought I was hearing things.
and people in the TCG want Maxx C to be at 1 or 3 lol
main phase 1 ahh music
"why everyone plays the same three decks" next
From the outside, Wii Fit Trainer may seem like a zoner, but any experienced WFT player will attest to her being a Hit and Run Character. Ultimately, she relies on provoking an opening via defensive and evasive play, from which she can convert with massive close quarters combos. That is the essence of hit and run, as her pressure game is not that intense, forcing her to retreat to a distant position as soon as her advantage is over.
She is a zoner, she's just bad lol
INKLING MENTIONED!!! FINALLY
Not quite sure why you say it like Inkling has never been acknowledged. Inkling was in the limelight for an extended period time back when the game was still new. Though as my pfp suggests, I am glad they were brought up lol
It's not exactly that Inkling is hard to master. It's moreso that she has incredibly bad flaws that make for really difficult games if the opponent knows what they're doing
@@Sacren365I mean is 2024
@@Sacren365 it's been 6 years since inkling was good
@puffpurp Dang, you making me feel old 😂 Didn't occur to me that Ultimate is a little more than half a decade old.
I am a Greninja main, and this is something I’ve been saying for a long time.
Whenever anyone asks about playing Greninja (which is the character I used to learn the game), I always recommend starting with a different character. Unruly movement, weird play style, precise hit boxes for the most part, combos that are not beginner friendly, bad out of shield options. Overall I consider him to be top 5-10 overall character difficulty after dabbling in the whole cast.
I sometimes wonder how many bad habits I've picked up just from learning the game via Gren. As slippery and hard to nail as his movement is for the enemy, it is just as much so for us.
100% agree. Playing zss feels like I have to win neutral 10x more often than my opponent, and the cheese factors are usually non existent after years of people learning to avoid flip kick
just learn idj laddercombos and kill people at 30
Nair flipkick is so damn fake at this point, factoring in both the nair nerfs and people knowing how to DI it. I get it once in a blue moon, but at this point in bracket I usually just go for bair for the positioning and damage. I've died due to nair flipkick whiffing way too many times.
@@Shmicah1235i actually hit it kind of consistently on some characters. Positioning yourself for it is the hardest part though, and its kind of a gamble if it will work you’re right on that.
As a ZSS main, I’m not really planning around cheesing with Nair -> FK or ladders anymore, it kinda just happens, unless the opponent isn’t aware. To put it another way, when I land one of these, I’m more like “oh nice we take those” than “I knew it would work”
I feel like metaknight is a hit and run, if you don’t know how to do the zero to death your basically waiting to whiff punish and find openings to get damage
OH YES! The air is his dormain. Having 5 jumps can be really strong if you are mobile.
I was thinking this too. You have to use his mobility to compensate for his light weight
I love how informative your videos are. They don't beat around the bush and doesn't really end with something like "there isn't really an answer". You get straight to the point while also taking your time to talk about your points and to talk about competing ideas or potential arguments. Great work again! God bless.
“Greninja will never land fair in neutral against a top player” is just straight up slander. It’s literally what the move is for - safe pressure in neutral as compared to nair. What greninja isn’t landing fair in neutral but still having success with the character???
Yeah that’s an odd take, Lea (Japanese, #1 world Gren) absolutely uses fair to zone and combos off it regularly in high level tournament.
Slander is an odd way to word it. Just because he might not know how good it isn’t doesn’t mean he’s disrespecting you or the character he just probably misunderstood it
@justinjumariburner Sorry if it didn’t come across that way but I was just being bombastic for the sake of it. I don’t actually feel disrespected, I just find it fun to use dramatic language. The point was just to emphasize how important fair is to greninja’s neutral game, not to set a mob on Vars for making fun videos about a kids game lol.
he said "seldom, if ever" not "never", and also was talking about a context of the opponent being at kill percent, where they *know* greninja's fair is basically the only stray hit they need to worry about and will be scouting it specifically. it's honestly a super cold take for him to say that
Dude down tilt combos into Fair at low percent 💀
To me it seems that most characters who end up in the hit and run archetype do so because they are under-tuned, and would be in a different category if buffed. They are either a bad rushdown, a bad jack of all trades, or sometimes a bad zoner. They have the one amazing attribute of speed/agility and not much else, so their only strong way to use it is to run away and use movement as a risky bait and punish style but even more defensive. The only time this style results in a top tier is when a characters mobility is so much better than every other character that they can actually threaten to run away with any lead they get to force approaches, (even though it's incredibly lame and boring both to play and to watch) or in games where offense is so much worse than defense that approaching at all is already a massive handicap. What makes them hard to play is that they are generally just weak characters, and the couple who aren't take a massive amount of willpower to play like the biggest bitch possible in the game.
This sounds a lot like the all rounder characters. The fact that they have to adapt to the matchup because they lack an actual game plan. The main difference being that these characters are fast out of necessity so they have issues relating to speed like mechanical execution. While all rounders don’t have that mental stack outside of higher end combos.
One trend I've noticed between hit-and-run and rushdown characters is viability in scramble situations, specifically when you're in advantage but don't have a true punish, true follow up, or a good read on your opponent. I think characters that are considered rushdown tend to be stronger on stray hits (roy, captain falcon) or can mash combo starters mostly risk free (fox, mario) so throwing something out in that kind of scramble situation skews the risk-reward towards them, as trading/whiffing is less disadvantageous. Whereas hit-and-run characters are a bit weaker on hit and stronger in neutral, so throwing out a move in that kind of scramble situation likely skews the risk reward against them, as trading is disadvantageous. They'd prefer to just reset to neutral, where they can continue using their superior neutral tools to get that ideal combo/advantage starter, like zss landing nair, greninja dash attack/dtilt, or spindash. Hence the whole thing about not liking to stay right in their opponents face all the time.
I heavily agree as I play inkling as a campy hit and run defensive play style. I heavily rely on back air and down tilt for spacing and pressure as it is heavily safe. The amount of precision and consistency, especially during long periods of time becomes heavily mentally exhausting for me I just love when my opponent is at 150-200+ percent and I have to rely or stray smash hit to take a stock or roller tech chase at mid percent if I can not gimp with an edge guard. So I just switch back to my main Mario.
I've often not agreed with some points in videos you made in the past but this is video is SPOT ON.
In the day to day grind/chilling wifi venture I found that the characters I lose with most often are "Hit and Run" fighters. after going through a character the first year of character crisis I picked up Inkling, then Greninja, then eventually Joker. I put about 50% of my total gameplay time into those 3 characters with the rest being spread among different characters. Even now I pick up a new character like...every month....
having so many draining sessions or losing streaks with characters I put a lot of time and effort into while easily reaching the top or soft-cap of elite smash with characters I just picked up is WILD! even if those characters are overall worse...it seems easier to 'WIN' with them...and after thinking about it for awhile I arrived at the same conclusion that this video does. Because of the overall skill and mental capacity used to accomplish the same thing as the other types....these characters are likely to perform worse even if they are equal or better than some other characters.
Apparently this is my archetype. I’ve never really been able to identify this about myself.
The best description I could ever come up with were characters that feel like water benders (ATLA).
But this breakdown feels like it’s helped me understand more. I haven’t played in a few months but im now excited to try again.
Thanks!
I've play one pro Pac-man player. He was the definition of a hit and run player. The moment you tried to get close to him he threw down the hydrant to force distance and charged or threw none stop projectiles. He was crazy.
Pac-Man is an archetypal trapper. Yes he does try to create space but at different points in the interactions and for different reason (to set up his traps).
Great video and you described the flaws of this archetype perfectly. I find it very funny Sonic is the one exception to this lol
I would consider Rosa as a weird hit and runner in the same category as joker as her movement and especially in the air is superior to most of the cast and the fact that she has to win neutral 9 out of 10 times and her kill options are there but require setup to work. In my opinion I think Rosa and ice climbers are so mentally taxing and require insane mechanical skill to be on par with other fighters that people simply just think it’s not worth it.
Ye, Rosa is in line with almost all the characteristics he mentioned
I can see her fitting in with the archetype. Though I personally see Rosa as trapper, granted I haven't watched her since Sm4sh.
@@Sacren365 she is still a trapper, but that doesn’t quite prevent her from sharing a lot of characteristics with hit and runners. She struggles to kill a lot more in this game compared to smash 4
Ice climbers aren't mentally taxing
This is the second video I've seen this weekend that randomly has Master Duel music and now I'm wondering how much is out there that I didn't notice before.
If you look closely you can see Greninja holding Maxx "C" under his tongue.
You are such a good explainer. Just thought to say that
As a Greninja main, myself, I've often struggled whenever asked what my gameplan is- And it's admittedly really frustrating, because I can come up with any number of possible scenarios in my head that *could* work, but then fail miserably in practice because my opponent simply picked an option I didn't expect.
This, added to the fact that Greninja's kill moves are... Inconsistent, at best (looking at you, Up Smash), means it feels like I'm fighting with a scalpel, while my opponents are all fighting with sledgehammers
I got to your smash videos by accident (autoplay) didnt know you made some, I watch your league videos too. I recognised your voice but just now noticed that the channel is named vars III
Great analysis of a long time misunderstood archetype
I’m so glad that there always tends to be a differing or unique opinion on Joker.
I always enjoy facing a good Joker player.
Sheik is very high up for me, the execution demands and fine line is tight as hell and very mentally taxing.
Some fgc characters as well due to having pretty poor neutral, bad movement, lackluster aerials and requiring setup, you pretty much play from behind until you suddenly get a set up and explode your opponent.
Kazuya, like in Tekken is a whiff punisher with tight frame windows and difficult execution but you are rewarded with preposterous damage.
The hardest characters to play depend on your goal. If you goal is to win, then the hardest character to play are the worst characters in the game. IE Ganon and ect. The characters with the least amount of tools are the hardest to play because you must push the fundamentals of the game far beyond your opponents level.
Think of it this way. Some say Peach is super hard because of the amount of inputs you need to do and how each matchup requires different things. But why does Ganon lose to Peach almost every time? Because the Ganon players have less tools which means their win condition is even harder than inputs per second or matchup memorization. With a bad character like Ganon, you have to react faster, condition better, and make harder reads. If the Peach player is equal to the Ganon player, than the Peach will be able to overwhelm their opponent with amazing moves and combos that Ganon simply doesn't have. Extra tools that are hard to use doesn't make a character harder to win with. It makes them easier to win with.
I think you should have said why sonic is an exception. For instance, the fact that he does have a consistent game plan against everyone, and that he is the only character that really doesn't need to take stocks allowing the run aspect of hit and run to bypass the traditional weaknesses of tye archetype
I find hit and runs are very much mental state that you need to inherently have to play them well on a consistent basis
I promise yall if greninja had ONE oos option and consistent hitboxes(im looking at you up smash) he would be so much better❤
These are my 3 most played characters…
Nice 🥲
Can you do all arounders next?
Wondering update fighters get these too.
I main ZSS… this video is exactly what I be talking about
There’s one more reason why people stray away from them. You don’t have to be a hit and run character to play hit and run. You can play hit and run with any character and they do fine, except they have another style to default to or change up to if hit and run isn’t working. Therefore nullifying why you’d use a character with hit and run weaknesses, when you can just play a rush down or zoner in the style of hit and run.
Yes, please make me feel good for playing one of the hardest characters in the game (zss sux)
Doesn’t most of this apply to sheik too. I mean very specific kill setups where it can get hard to kill if they get to a to high percentage, she likes to play outside of your range then punish you (void has recommended doing this) and requires high precision to play well.
Greninja to me feels like a character who should be able to advance perfectly at getting in. Greninja's got the strengths and speed like a ninja. I wish that he had more combo routes with his aerials and not just with his up-air. Hell, let 'em use its Shadow Sneak as a follow up on neutrals like he can with his taunts.
They poke there opponents and reset neutral until they r in a very specific position where they can take your stock which is very tiring and combine with there weight unforgiving if you fail to win neutral until this condition is met
Can you do an episode on whiff punishers?
I'm still surprised at how I stumbled upon Greninja as my main. Totally not my archetype, but he just clicked as soon as I picked him up. I love how every game is basically a puzzle in how to approach, but I can definitely see how in a professional setting people are getting burnt out by the archetype.
Is that yu gi oh master duel music? Starting around 2:30
Looking forward to Marss making content out of this, lol.
Sheik explains all the points alone and more
Master duel soundtrack jumpscare at the start wtf
I tried to main Zss or joker and you point out all the reasons why I dropped them over byleth. Consistency is way to important
Can you please make a "Why everyone Plays Mario" he is a really popular character at almost every level of play and despite a lack of range he still manages to get really solid results :D
True
He's the Jack of all trades of the game and is ironically a damn good job at it, focusing mainly on throw combos but also having a projectile and a reflector to counter zoning while also a fast Nair to combat rushdown
Really bold of you to not put sonic in the thumbnail
He isnt there because he is easy and would make bad thumbnail
Because Ultimate Sonic isn’t specifically designed to be a hit and run character, he’s a rushdown fighter as well.
@@RealBroccoliHour Basically they made him a hit-and-run character, but then decided to remove his weaknesses, hence why he's the #2 character in the game.
Sonic LITERALLY hits and runs. But he can kill and is very consistent
Greninja is got to be one of the best characters because of hydro pump. You can kill somebody at 0% if you just knock them out of the way while they're recovering
If you time it right, there's nothing your opponent can do
Swordies have an advantage with their disjointed attacks.
You have to work that much harder just to get in.
THANK YOU. Ive been saying zss is one of the hardest characters and nobody believed me for so long.
I think Little Mac also fits into this category, since he has no advantage state due to his bad aerials and not a lot of his moves combo into each other above 0, so he has to keep resetting to neutral over and over again until he racks up enough damage to KO.
Bang on. You can win neutral 20x more than the opponent as zss, but still lose the stock first.
I lovemy main greninja
Having to win 40 interactions when your opponent only needs to win 5 is too big of a margin for error.
I saw the title and thought you were going to talk about quick play players online not honoring the rematch 😅
What character class do Peach/Daisy belong to? I know she's a bruiser, but I'm not sure if that's a full class.
I main kazuya it’s frustrating having to fight little characters like Ike and pika toon link etc . The beam doesn’t connect and you have to do low hits cause mediums go over head… it’s stupid to have such small hit boxes and here I am a normal human lol
I play bowser and inkling. I started as an inkling main and a bowser secondary because bowser is my favorite guy to ever exist in fiction, but then inkling got nerfed way too hard and fishing for the up throw up air just wasn't fun
I feel like sonic is also the only hit & run where players of said character are willing to stall the timer but the average player of Zss inkling or greninja still wants to look for openings and take stocks. Perhaps they should take notes from sonic players and start camping more
would sheik be considered a rushdown character?
"They don't like shielding" ah so that's why I like inkling
Would jigglypuff not be a hit and run then? Just curious on what people classify her as
This is why I find the game so challenging. I play every character like a hit-and-runner.
Ironically, your using Master Duel music brings to mind how my original deck has issues with being more mentally taxing to play and being more beholden to the situation at hand than a rote gameplan of one card starters and recursion. Similar problems to what's described in this video!
Which deck in what format?
@@greenhillmario current format, and it's an original deck.
Where’s why no one plays Lucas?
He’s got so much tech and sauce and I think he’s a potential top tier.
Recovery go bye bye
@@royistheboy9954 his recovery is good. PK thunder is rlly long, but if you think it’s unsafe, then u can use the long double jump + zair/longest air dodge in the game to make it back
@@electricssb His recovery is alright. Just very easy to cheese, especially with how popular GnW is. That and he's a little stubby, even with zair and very floaty
@@yaboytony3028 his recovery is cheesable I agree, but it’s not the main problem. His biggest problems are floatiness and oos.
I hate fighting a hit and run Lucas so bad. It's like my Samus has no counter play at all and that I have to pry for the Lucas to make a mistake. His Arial drift speed and air attack safety is just nuts. And landing a projectile before his pk fire comes out is pure luck.
Video Idea: Why Everyone Hates Fire Emblem Characters in Smash Ultimate
because they’re all the “same”.
Lord knows i do
Your tears only make us stronger
All except corrin, Robin, and byleth. Are Identical. That's a big echo liwt
Because they have swords and we don't.
I seen a guy take a stocks with zss nair and zair
And then you have hit and run characters that rely on setups and have a relatively high execution barrier : Rosalina and Luma
I like playing inkling but I am NOT a hit and run player. I get impatient waiting for myself to make a move
Sonic is more like "Run and run".
Where the Zomba video at
I don't think I've run into either of these characters and lost to them. Yeah, they're a pain to play against, but they take hits like a toddler getting hit by a truck.
I attempted to main zss for several months. After little success even after genuinely the most effort I've ever put into a character, I came to the conclusion that I simply was not a skilled enough player to play characters this inconsistent and hard. I am not that guy.
They're kinda the opposite of generalists. They are specialists, or "situationalists." Their gameplan isn't linear.
I wonder how we could categorically fix the archetype.
I think a zoner would be harder to master. Especially in a game like ultimate where its more rushdown oriented
Why does this describe how I play marth :')
I think these characters are still as good as ever, just not at the highest top lvls, where everyone is able to punish these characters and beat them in a single advantage state, while they can't do that consistently, any fast character can whiff punish. so the issue is that what they do isn't special, and they rely on there opponents making mistakes consistently
I feel like despite everything you said about how hard they are, hit and run characters are almost always in the drivers seat. They have a much better opportunity to decide when and where interactions will happen than their opponent. Being in the drivers seat is "hard", that is to say, its a tall execution check, but not being in the drivers seat is much much harder.
Honestly i just wonder why you dont count Shiek as Hit'n Run Charackter while still showing his footage.
Is it because he lacks the killpower or why exactly?
Shiek needs endless combos to rack up damage which slots her more as a rushdown.
except for Sonic who has great ways of getting damage fast
Is pikachu not hit and run?
I can hear ZSS mains yelling "ZSS SUCKS!"
i'd say joker is almost the king of jack of all trades, the only thing he can't really do is hard camping.
Random is the hardest character to use. 😈
"Sonic is the one exception to this entire video"
Yep, BS fr
And some of the most annoying to fight plus they can also just be broken sometimes even if no one agrees on that
These characters are the embodiment of a game of chicken. If your opponent cracks first, they lose. If you crack first you lose. Except your opponent, depending on the MU, can force you to approach or crack, or otherwise you lose regardless, screwing over the person trying to play chicken.
If zss never got nerfed she could’ve been as big as sonic rn
Sonic isn’t really as big rn even with him arguably being best in the game because he’s certainly not a popular character.
You either main him or you don’t. I can see way more ZSS secondaries and more reps especially if we’re talking pre patch where Japan just abused ZSS lmao
Worst part is that it gets even more difficult with online 😭
I’m curious as to why Vars doesn’t consider Peach/Daisy to be part of this archetype.
They are defensive combo characters. Like optimally you want your opponents to come to you
Lack of mobility is the big reason.
Because they touch their opponent and do 60% LMAOO how are you gonna call a walking ball of advantage state "hit and run"
I legit think Sonic is the hardest character to play. Or more to get the absolute best out of.
We spotted the Sonix fan
@@armakeen3576 I respect him. He’s good.🤷
We got a real comedian here.
@@OddRick3113do you have a rebbutal? Lol.
Still waiting for a “Why Nobody Plays Lucas” video 😢
I like to call the hit and runners the "if you play them perfectly they're basically the best character in the game, however the other 99% of the time their like high tier I guess"
Characters.
As someone who plays both traditional and platform fighters I'm always super confused when each one decides to use different terms for the exact same thing. For the love of god just call it a pixie character 😭.
Ironically sonic is easy as hell in low or high level. Sonix is lit a top 2 player and he cant even win a reverse main match while using a easy fundies character like palu.