This is probably the best economics presentation you are going to hear and watch in many years. And it is particularly gut-wrenching to have to watch a South Korean use gentle humor to remind us Americans of our own economic history!
About a question on the great depression, during the talk, Smoot-hawley tariff act was in 1930, who was that dork that interrupted Chang and said it was 1931?!! Chang was like "it was 1930, but whatever you say"
Mildly interesting and humorous. When was this shot? Still using a projector instead of one of those lame PowerPoint presentations on the megatron? I bet the original was on a VHS cassette. :)
I think a lot of people misunderstood what this discussion was about. I don't hear much about how bad a free economy is as much as I hear that we really don't have now or ever had a free market environment.
I would like to recommend all people who liked Chang's book, to read Erik S. Reinert, How rich countries got rich and why poor countries stay poor. It's not as readable as Ha-Joon Chang's book but it's well worth it, it explains clearly WHY infant industry protection works. I mailed Chang and asked what he thought about Reinert's book, he responded: "I am very good friends with Erik and he has influenced my thinking a lot. I essentially agree with Erik's understanding of the growth process."
Excellent lecture. Big fan of economic history, its a veritifiable gold mine for policy if looked at properly like Chang has. If you think about it, protectionsim is failry intuitive for developing nations when you think about it as like raising a kid.
@Bellantoni Ha-Joon Chang himself admits that Holland, Switzerland and Hong Kong developed capital without protectionism. The question is not whether there will be capital development without protectionism, clearly it will happen either way, the question is whether protectionism hurts or helps this development.
@Bellantoni I can accept that as a legitimate definition of protectionism. That being the case arguing for or against "protectionism" is too broad. Any debate must focus on a particular form of protectionism rather than the concept as a whole. Just because one method of protectionism is good/bad doesn't mean all methods of protectionism are good/bad. Thank you for the book recommendation, perhaps I'll drop by the library today and pick it up. Cheers.
@Bellantoni Two points: First, protectionism is largely defined as high tariffs on imports. Talking about other forms of state intervention is changing the subject somewhat. Second, while I am not as familiar with Holland or Switzerland I do know something about the economic history of Hong Kong and I see no evidence the British government did anything to promote economic development there. Could you direct me to a source that describes the role of the state in Hong Kongs economic development?
@Auraruth8 Well said, government is there to enforce contracts and yes protect its citizens from harming one another, but government goes beyond their means and starts creating laws to punish citizens from engaging in socially advantageous acts. the government is there to be the shield not the sword. Government IS there to keep law and order, but should not interject when there is no harm committed. You have been a pleasure to have an intelligent discussion with you, best of luck!!!
It's been proven in economics that ANY capitalist economy leads to centralization. That means that firms who are lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time, have good political connections, are able to acquire a large share of the equity of profitable enterprises will succeed, at the expense of the people who did the work. This is what capitalism protects.
Inequality of economic health motivates lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride. The inequality of economic health is caused by limited access to comfortable standards of living. Access to better standards of living is only supportable by having appropriate distributability of energy and natural resources. Today's inconveniences in accessing energy and natural resources, which today is largely controlled by geopolitical factors, is the primary threat to world economic health.
"America is loosing its industry and the national debt is exploding." America can only recover its industrial capacity by producing its own stuff through increasing the use of technology in the design, production, and distribution of more and more inexpensive items (e.g. clothes, toys, etc.) traditionally produced by human hands. Relative to America's current economic (read: balance of payment) problems, exporting products of automation is indispensable in reducing America's trade debt.
Yes i watched the whole video, inclusive the Q&A starting ca. 47th minute. Quite interesting to hear some not well-known backgrounds and connections which led to the situation of today. Alas could not find anything about the American W. Edwards Deming. He was initial in the success of Japanese and Asian manufacturers. By rigorous quality control and exact specifications, he could establish high quality products that were superior to the competition. For this, he was highly honoured in Japan.
@Nintendomanwill My final point on this is that adjustment in a world of market failure, war, famine, pestilence (yes a country that focues on crops will find specialising in agriculture pretty shitty a times) and a world where other countries have governments tha even more actively intervene in economies means govermen economic policy HAS to be a bit more inteleectualy demanding than sitting back and hoping loca
@Nintendomanwill If economics was all "common sense" then it wouldn't be an academic field that people have to study many years to receive a PhD in. I'm not arguing against all free trade at all. But to think that things like subsidies, tariffs, etc are never beneficial is an extremely simplistic world-view that has been shown false multiple times throughout history. My point is that due to the world being a complicated place with market failures, government involvement is sometimes beneficial.
An excellent lecture, I recommend it to people all the time and thank the Foundation for posting this and keeping it available. Dr. Chang should be invited to be on the Obama economic team, with a mind like his working on the economy, we'd be way more likely to see real change come about that would benefit the vast majority of the population, rather than the small sliver of it Obama is beholden to and catering to..
@Nintendomanwill Many regulations are very necessary; some simple regulation of derivatives and banking capital requirements would have prevented the brunt of this crisis. The SEC is vital to the financial markets. Regulation against things like lead in childrens' toys is also helpful. A great example is Japan's restriction on foreign car companies during the 20th century. Without the government's actions, Japanese companies wouldn't have had the opportunity to develop.
@Nintendomanwill Let me ask you some questions. Are free markets intrinsically resilient to manipulation and monopoly formation? Adam Smith did not believe in self-regulating markets if not in conditions of "perfect liberty." Do you think we can have perfect liberty or do you think he was wrong? Which large industrial country grew according to neoclassical paradigms?
@resodan i agree with you about the relevant regulatory benefits of government and how Chang brings out the hypocrisy of the free market people/companies. in most cases there isn't pure free market in any case because of the politics that get played by the either the special interest lobby or the already powerful big company lobbyist. even lemonade stands are shutdown by loitering/idle cops. i will be looking for a good example of free market to use in an argument.
As the US has become more and more socialist with regard to being government the largest landowner, employer, healthcare provider etc..we have seen our economy and median income decline,where as Singapore has seen there income and wealth increase "CHANGING" from their previous forms of trade.Greece has done real well with their protectionists & union policies haven't they?Protectionism does not protect society, but "certain" industries in a country.This guy tells half of the story "lets move on"
@Nintendomanwill The problem with your analysis is that you're assuming that government regulation is always bad and are only paying attention to individual cases which support your position and immediately ignoring those that don't. Anyone who makes the claim that all government involvement is bad would be laughed out of an econ classroom past 101. I majored in finance at NYU, so this is something I've thought about and discussed in a lot. Derivatives regulation in particular was a big topic.
@Auraruth8 Chile's economy is far better off than the rest of Latin America and they are partially a free market, but more so than any other in Latin America. Chile ranks 7th for economic freedom and they are trending upward with President Sebastian Piñera and his center-right Alianza coalition assumed power in 2010. They have a median income of $15,000 and growth of 5.3%, but like the United States they have a top tax rate of 40%,a VAT and gov spening 24.1% of GDP, but debt under 10%
@Auraruth8 But we have different ideas is on how we get to the next level but anyhow nice talking to you. that link you gave was an interesting one, hope you achieve what you want I know I will certanly try. Good luck. =)
I never liked Friedman, he was trying extremely hard to prove the world was flat but as someone, who I unfortunately don't remember the name of once said; "Not because more Koreans have access to the internet means they are talking to others outside Korea."
@wilhelmdrake i didn't refer to the biggest lobbyist because i don't know them by rank. i can't post links here but twyman-whitney and opensecrets has a list to give you an idea of some interest groups. besides that use google. they are everywhere. the free market isn't as complicated as you make it sound but if you think Chang makes any sense in the above discussion there are interests that keep the free market an illusion.
@michaeltickledick i think you are making a parallel argument since i did not mention or advocate for a free market. my observation was that Chang doesn't talk about how bad the free market is. he seems to make the point that the free market doesn't exist and as i mentioned to @resodan below i am hard pressed to find a pure free market situation. i will be thinking about it and i hope to find it.
@Nintendomanwill Ok, thanks for the answers. May I continue? What prevents monopolies from forming by force? What about that "perfect liberty" and free movement of labor that Smith talked about, do we, can we have that? He does posit it as a pre-requisite. Wasn't the UK in a privileged position by being the first nation to industrialize and by having a large colonial basin and a vast military? Do the latter 2 not violate any principle of free trade?
@Nintendomanwill Thanks again. I will continue, if I do not aggravate you. What happens when one party does not respect the volitional property rights of another? How are misappropriation and dishonesty dealt with? Are you aware of Adam Smith's fears about division of labour taken too far, or his case for public education and progressive taxation?
So Singapore is 80% private sector and 20% government? The government in the USA hires 27% of the population, which is service based and not production based, meaning they are takers not makers. The 20% of Singapore that is government is PAID by the people of Singapore, their 20% runs off of the TAX imposed on their private sector.Protectionsim and price fixing is what caused unemployment to stay in double digits for a decade,before gov intervention,unemployment dropped to 6% before skyrocketing
@quinnrasta "This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83 This clause if often intentionally misinterpreted by liberals to promote spending on their constituents for their relecetion
@quinnrasta So do you support the idea of anarchism? If so than Chomsky should be fun to watch because he also supports the idea of anarchism, My thought is that anarchism is best achieved through the means of government and democracy and using those to make a transition to anarchism and TRUE democracy. This one could also be good: "Noam Chomsky on the State-Corporate Complex: A Threat to Freedom and Survival" i know its a lot but I think you will agree with a lot in it. =)
The Asian countries that he mentions were protectionist countries before capitalism,what is the result now that they have adopted capitalist style policies?Have they become better or worse?The reason for their poverty prior to capitalism is held with the INSTATE protectionism, whats good for the individual is good for society &a country that allows"VOLUNTARY"trade will prosper,BTW how is N Korea doing?Like old china and germany, they would not let people leave their country...why?Protectionism!
@quinnrasta Did you watch all of it?I think he basically shows that it is because of state policies like protectionism some of us in the west have a good life. The US and Britain got rich because of it.But anyway there is a big differnce between the US and North-korea. I am not saying that all protectionism is good. It depends on the policies. The US had good protectionist policies and still has to a large extent. Try another vid: Noam Chomsky: "Free Markets?"Give it a try please =(
@Nintendomanwill You don't seem to realize the difference between short and long-term gain. You also don't seem to understand how economies develop. The point being made by Chang is that free trade prevents a developing country from being able to develop more sophisticated, capital-intensive industries that will help it become rich in the long-term. Chang explains why this is so; I'm not going to waste time repeating him. You sound like someone who just finished taking Econ 101.
@Auraruth8 "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" Ben Franklin "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49." Thomas Jefferson
@Auraruth8 “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce." James Madison
Austrian economics is not based on "sound science" - no science works off mythical axioms. It's also been proven in mathematics that there CANNOT be a single axiom that an entire complex (defined as having and the ability to perform arithmetical calculations) and complete system. Mises was neither a mathematician and a logician and in fact knew absolutely NOTHING about either field. In addition to the non-existence of axiomatic science, there is no such thing as non-mathematical science.
@quinnrasta The constitutuion also supported slavery (if Im not mistaken, if so than correct me) so again it depends on where you put your faith. I put my faith in democracy(and that is not what we have today). For instance worker owned buissnisses and we can get there through the government and government policy. And then government owning the banks, thats basically it developing democracy as much as possible. NO ONE in govenments talk about that.
@successfulbuild Finance is a ponsy scheme. Money is made by lending. Each time a loan is made there is an interest rate charged. The only way pay the interest back is borrow more money with more interest to pay back. As a whole the debt in the system must grow hence all the talk about "growth" by economists. Debt = Money + Interest. therefore Finance = Ponsy scheme.
@Auraruth8 This guy is full of it, as soon as I heard the word "fair" I pegged him for what he is a socialist. China "WAS" a protectionist, still is, but not to the same extent it was. Singapore is "NOW" 80% private market according to him and yet they have prospered and continue to. Cuba has instate protectionism, where the poor cannot own capitalist goods like computers and cell phones, travel is restricted to protect their aristocracy. What does this have to do with Milton Friedman?
@Nintendomanwill Ha, I must say your posting on a video that clealry, clearly (even in terms a Southern hillbilly could undertand) outlines the case for managed adjustment is hilarious. I never mentioned limiting yourself to a geogrpahical area's FOPs, you did with your theory back when people were still using horses to get around. Government economic policy has to be proactive not passive. Japan would never make cars today if wasn't for government intervention. Please argue this coherently.
@quinnrasta So If you do not support anarchism, you dont support democracy, ok you support the constitutuion but according to the constitution, the government should supply general wealfare, now cant that be interpreted in many ways? And again why do you dismiss chomsky so rapidly. He has pretty good ideas about this free trade subject as well I listened to the lecture you linked and I think he made decent points but he did not deny that the US became rich because of tariffs.
What's wrong with having a degree in finance? Finance is more "real world" based than modern neoclassical economics (not neo-Keynesian), which took equations from physics and mathematics in spite of the derision of mathematicians and physicists! Obviously, it is more grounded in reality than the discredited Austrian school of economics.
many places Allah is taking about earth as (1) 'spread out' (2) "flattened like a carpet for u to travel in road". Now answer my Question what happens on the surface of the balloon when u keep on blowing it? the surface upon balloon gets stretches/expands, Allah is talking abt this only as "'spread out" . when u keep on blowing it like room sized, can u stand/walk on it? No. when u make bigger like 'earth', YES u can walk/travel. the closer points are yet flat, but never say earth has corners!
@quinnrasta Again that can be interpreted in a few ways... It comes down to how it is interpreted(the constiution) and if you look at the polls the population is greatly in favor of, social security for instance. So the only "crime that is commited against the rich is that the poor take some of their money now you could eliminate this crime by having the government own all the centralbanks if not even all the banks and get rid of taxes. But anyway: Chomsky and Chang =)
@quinnrasta But anyway we both know so much and we both want freedome so I think its pretty impossible for the two of us to change our stance on these issues, but I think we also might agree on a lot. But we both know that government created possibilities for people to an extent, right like keaping law and order. That is what makes commerse possible for instance. Continues- =)
@quinnrasta And again Chomsky does not support, Nazi Germany, USSR, China or Cuba. But let me ask you this Chile is a free market economy right? then why are people not that well of? I would like to hear you take on that. But please watch the Chomsky stuff, it is good, I do not label people, if you want to do it fine, but think about what it entails when you do.
After Smoot-Hawley US exports declined and were in the red until the tariff was lifted, after our economy began to grow again, if I remember correctly. This guys argument is total BS, China grew going against Russian capitalism?Well there is all kinds of capitalism, I guess. Wasn't china one of the biggest protectionist nations before turning to capitalism? What was their economy like?Didnt they practice centuries of isolationism?This guy is off his rocker, greece is a huge protectionist country
@Auraruth8 “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” - Thomas Jefferson, “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” - James Madison
@Nintendomanwill ...hoping local entrepreneurs somehow get peasents working to make digitla camcorders and blu ray players. This aint going to happen by itself, the market is jsut a price mechanism, nothing more. And defintely not something to runa country by. Space travel, the internet...government can make somethings happen the market simply cannot. Modernisatio as SE Asia has shown is one of these things.
must see for milton friedman's fanboys on youtube. Fanboys love friedman so much it's almost like religion. always questions assumptions. Maybe chang is wrong on some parts too. It's a mistake to agree just because the argument sounds good.
@Nintendomanwill I think you're plain mad my friend. Its like arguing with an computer algorithm, it has a logic of its own and can't argue based on facts. Tell me 1 country with no economic activity inside its borders that has 'garnedered the fruits of the world'. In a Disney story, maybe, in real life, Korea, Japan and Taiwan as Chang points out don't make rice or other low margin, low linkage, low EXTERNALITY (please, please look this word up, Im begging you for you rown sake here) goods.
@Nintendomanwill You don't make a child do what and adult would. Unlike business which can faila and dissappear if they get it wrong, whole countries can't be subject to that sort of turbulence without riots on the streets. You speak about countries as if they have no people living in them! If you said what South Korea's compartivie advantage was in the 50s it would be something like making sackcloths, now they're producing samsung camcorders and mobiles.
@Nintendomanwill Thanks toright wing weirdos like you we keep goign back to disneyland stuff sadly. Making sackclothes doesnt create what MODERN economists like to call 'externalities'. Micheal Porter calls them linkages. Think about why Korean chaebols exist. If I specialised as a binman could I adapt in later years, well if I cant read, probably not. Specialisngin higher end stuf requires more skills-thats where the flex comes in.
This is probably the best economics presentation you are going to hear and watch in many years. And it is particularly gut-wrenching to have to watch a South Korean use gentle humor to remind us Americans of our own economic history!
About a question on the great depression, during the talk, Smoot-hawley tariff act was in 1930, who was that dork that interrupted Chang and said it was 1931?!! Chang was like "it was 1930, but whatever you say"
Very interesting and intelligent guy, one of the best economists of today, and a VERY shy man. :)
Mildly interesting and humorous. When was this shot? Still using a projector instead of one of those lame PowerPoint presentations on the megatron? I bet the original was on a VHS cassette. :)
This guy must be heard!
I think a lot of people misunderstood what this discussion was about. I don't hear much about how bad a free economy is as much as I hear that we really don't have now or ever had a free market environment.
You flat earthers don't have to worry about being proven wrong with this video. It's simply a history of economics& trade lesson.
I would like to recommend all people who liked Chang's book, to read Erik S. Reinert, How rich countries got rich and why poor countries stay poor. It's not as readable as Ha-Joon Chang's book but it's well worth it, it explains clearly WHY infant industry protection works. I mailed Chang and asked what he thought about Reinert's book, he responded: "I am very good friends with Erik and he has influenced my thinking a lot. I essentially agree with Erik's understanding of the growth process."
Excellent lecture. Big fan of economic history, its a veritifiable gold mine for policy if looked at properly like Chang has. If you think about it, protectionsim is failry intuitive for developing nations when you think about it as like raising a kid.
I can fully recommend this book! I read it and it was very, very enlightening. And very entertaining too.
@Bellantoni Ha-Joon Chang himself admits that Holland, Switzerland and Hong Kong developed capital without protectionism. The question is not whether there will be capital development without protectionism, clearly it will happen either way, the question is whether protectionism hurts or helps this development.
"I like wacky titles so no problems there."
xD I can tell! Man, I love this guy.
@Bellantoni I can accept that as a legitimate definition of protectionism. That being the case arguing for or against "protectionism" is too broad. Any debate must focus on a particular form of protectionism rather than the concept as a whole. Just because one method of protectionism is good/bad doesn't mean all methods of protectionism are good/bad.
Thank you for the book recommendation, perhaps I'll drop by the library today and pick it up. Cheers.
@Bellantoni Two points:
First, protectionism is largely defined as high tariffs on imports. Talking about other forms of state intervention is changing the subject somewhat.
Second, while I am not as familiar with Holland or Switzerland I do know something about the economic history of Hong Kong and I see no evidence the British government did anything to promote economic development there. Could you direct me to a source that describes the role of the state in Hong Kongs economic development?
Superb.
@Auraruth8 Well said, government is there to enforce contracts and yes protect its citizens from harming one another, but government goes beyond their means and starts creating laws to punish citizens from engaging in socially advantageous acts. the government is there to be the shield not the sword. Government IS there to keep law and order, but should not interject when there is no harm committed. You have been a pleasure to have an intelligent discussion with you, best of luck!!!
It's been proven in economics that ANY capitalist economy leads to centralization. That means that firms who are lucky enough to be at the right place at the right time, have good political connections, are able to acquire a large share of the equity of profitable enterprises will succeed, at the expense of the people who did the work. This is what capitalism protects.
Inequality of economic health motivates lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride.
The inequality of economic health is caused by limited access to comfortable standards of living. Access to better standards of living is only supportable by having appropriate distributability of energy and natural resources.
Today's inconveniences in accessing energy and natural resources, which today is largely controlled by geopolitical factors, is the primary threat to world economic health.
if you're gonna interrupt, at least get it right- Smoot-Hawley was June 1930!!
"America is loosing its industry and the national debt is exploding."
America can only recover its industrial capacity by producing its own stuff through increasing the use of technology in the design, production, and distribution of more and more inexpensive items (e.g. clothes, toys, etc.) traditionally produced by human hands.
Relative to America's current economic (read: balance of payment) problems, exporting products of automation is indispensable in reducing America's trade debt.
Yes i watched the whole video, inclusive the Q&A starting ca. 47th minute. Quite interesting to hear some not well-known backgrounds and connections which led to the situation of today. Alas could not find anything about the American W. Edwards Deming. He was initial in the success of Japanese and Asian manufacturers. By rigorous quality control and exact specifications, he could establish high quality products that were superior to the competition. For this, he was highly honoured in Japan.
@Nintendomanwill My final point on this is that adjustment in a world of market failure, war, famine, pestilence (yes a country that focues on crops will find specialising in agriculture pretty shitty a times) and a world where other countries have governments tha even more actively intervene in economies means govermen economic policy HAS to be a bit more inteleectualy demanding than sitting back and hoping loca
@Nintendomanwill If economics was all "common sense" then it wouldn't be an academic field that people have to study many years to receive a PhD in.
I'm not arguing against all free trade at all. But to think that things like subsidies, tariffs, etc are never beneficial is an extremely simplistic world-view that has been shown false multiple times throughout history. My point is that due to the world being a complicated place with market failures, government involvement is sometimes beneficial.
An excellent lecture, I recommend it to people all the time and thank the Foundation for posting this and keeping it available. Dr. Chang should be invited to be on the Obama economic team, with a mind like his working on the economy, we'd be way more likely to see real change come about that would benefit the vast majority of the population, rather than the small sliver of it Obama is beholden to and catering to..
@Nintendomanwill Many regulations are very necessary; some simple regulation of derivatives and banking capital requirements would have prevented the brunt of this crisis. The SEC is vital to the financial markets. Regulation against things like lead in childrens' toys is also helpful.
A great example is Japan's restriction on foreign car companies during the 20th century. Without the government's actions, Japanese companies wouldn't have had the opportunity to develop.
@Nintendomanwill Let me ask you some questions.
Are free markets intrinsically resilient to manipulation and monopoly formation?
Adam Smith did not believe in self-regulating markets if not in conditions of "perfect liberty." Do you think we can have perfect liberty or do you think he was wrong?
Which large industrial country grew according to neoclassical paradigms?
Milton Friedman just got owned.
@resodan i agree with you about the relevant regulatory benefits of government and how Chang brings out the hypocrisy of the free market people/companies. in most cases there isn't pure free market in any case because of the politics that get played by the either the special interest lobby or the already powerful big company lobbyist. even lemonade stands are shutdown by loitering/idle cops. i will be looking for a good example of free market to use in an argument.
As the US has become more and more socialist with regard to being government the largest landowner, employer, healthcare provider etc..we have seen our economy and median income decline,where as Singapore has seen there income and wealth increase "CHANGING" from their previous forms of trade.Greece has done real well with their protectionists & union policies haven't they?Protectionism does not protect society, but "certain" industries in a country.This guy tells half of the story "lets move on"
@Nintendomanwill The problem with your analysis is that you're assuming that government regulation is always bad and are only paying attention to individual cases which support your position and immediately ignoring those that don't. Anyone who makes the claim that all government involvement is bad would be laughed out of an econ classroom past 101.
I majored in finance at NYU, so this is something I've thought about and discussed in a lot. Derivatives regulation in particular was a big topic.
waw...............finally I understand something about economy
@Auraruth8 Chile's economy is far better off than the rest of Latin America and they are partially a free market, but more so than any other in Latin America. Chile ranks 7th for economic freedom and they are trending upward with President Sebastian Piñera and his center-right Alianza coalition assumed power in 2010. They have a median income of $15,000 and growth of 5.3%, but like the United States they have a top tax rate of 40%,a VAT and gov spening 24.1% of GDP, but debt under 10%
@Auraruth8 But we have different ideas is on how we get to the next level but anyhow nice talking to you. that link you gave was an interesting one, hope you achieve what you want I know I will certanly try. Good luck. =)
I never liked Friedman, he was trying extremely hard to prove the world was flat but as someone, who I unfortunately don't remember the name of once said; "Not because more Koreans have access to the internet means they are talking to others outside Korea."
@wilhelmdrake i didn't refer to the biggest lobbyist because i don't know them by rank. i can't post links here but twyman-whitney and opensecrets has a list to give you an idea of some interest groups. besides that use google. they are everywhere. the free market isn't as complicated as you make it sound but if you think Chang makes any sense in the above discussion there are interests that keep the free market an illusion.
@michaeltickledick i think you are making a parallel argument since i did not mention or advocate for a free market. my observation was that Chang doesn't talk about how bad the free market is. he seems to make the point that the free market doesn't exist and as i mentioned to @resodan below i am hard pressed to find a pure free market situation. i will be thinking about it and i hope to find it.
@Nintendomanwill Ok, thanks for the answers. May I continue?
What prevents monopolies from forming by force?
What about that "perfect liberty" and free movement of labor that Smith talked about, do we, can we have that? He does posit it as a pre-requisite.
Wasn't the UK in a privileged position by being the first nation to industrialize and by having a large colonial basin and a vast military? Do the latter 2 not violate any principle of free trade?
@Nintendomanwill Thanks again. I will continue, if I do not aggravate you.
What happens when one party does not respect the volitional property rights of another? How are misappropriation and dishonesty dealt with?
Are you aware of Adam Smith's fears about division of labour taken too far, or his case for public education and progressive taxation?
Good book.
So Singapore is 80% private sector and 20% government? The government in the USA hires 27% of the population, which is service based and not production based, meaning they are takers not makers. The 20% of Singapore that is government is PAID by the people of Singapore, their 20% runs off of the TAX imposed on their private sector.Protectionsim and price fixing is what caused unemployment to stay in double digits for a decade,before gov intervention,unemployment dropped to 6% before skyrocketing
@quinnrasta "This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended." - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83 This clause if often intentionally misinterpreted by liberals to promote spending on their constituents for their relecetion
@quinnrasta So do you support the idea of anarchism? If so than Chomsky should be fun to watch because he also supports the idea of anarchism, My thought is that anarchism is best achieved through the means of government and democracy and using those to make a transition to anarchism and TRUE democracy. This one could also be good: "Noam Chomsky on the State-Corporate Complex: A Threat to Freedom and Survival" i know its a lot but I think you will agree with a lot in it. =)
The Asian countries that he mentions were protectionist countries before capitalism,what is the result now that they have adopted capitalist style policies?Have they become better or worse?The reason for their poverty prior to capitalism is held with the INSTATE protectionism, whats good for the individual is good for society &a country that allows"VOLUNTARY"trade will prosper,BTW how is N Korea doing?Like old china and germany, they would not let people leave their country...why?Protectionism!
Obama,
Please fire Geithner and Summers, and the rest, and hire this MAN! Damn
@quinnrasta Did you watch all of it?I think he basically shows that it is because of state policies like protectionism some of us in the west have a good life. The US and Britain got rich because of it.But anyway there is a big differnce between the US and North-korea. I am not saying that all protectionism is good. It depends on the policies. The US had good protectionist policies and still has to a large extent. Try another vid: Noam Chomsky: "Free Markets?"Give it a try please =(
@Nintendomanwill You don't seem to realize the difference between short and long-term gain. You also don't seem to understand how economies develop. The point being made by Chang is that free trade prevents a developing country from being able to develop more sophisticated, capital-intensive industries that will help it become rich in the long-term. Chang explains why this is so; I'm not going to waste time repeating him.
You sound like someone who just finished taking Econ 101.
@Auraruth8 "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner" Ben Franklin
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49." Thomas Jefferson
@Air420 And Milton Friedman. =)
@Auraruth8 “The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;”The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce." James Madison
Austrian economics is not based on "sound science" - no science works off mythical axioms. It's also been proven in mathematics that there CANNOT be a single axiom that an entire complex (defined as having and the ability to perform arithmetical calculations) and complete system. Mises was neither a mathematician and a logician and in fact knew absolutely NOTHING about either field. In addition to the non-existence of axiomatic science, there is no such thing as non-mathematical science.
@quinnrasta The constitutuion also supported slavery (if Im not mistaken, if so than correct me) so again it depends on where you put your faith. I put my faith in democracy(and that is not what we have today). For instance worker owned buissnisses and we can get there through the government and government policy. And then government owning the banks, thats basically it developing democracy as much as possible. NO ONE in govenments talk about that.
@successfulbuild Finance is a ponsy scheme. Money is made by lending. Each time a loan is made there is an interest rate charged. The only way pay the interest back is borrow more money with more interest to pay back. As a whole the debt in the system must grow hence all the talk about "growth" by economists. Debt = Money + Interest. therefore Finance = Ponsy scheme.
At least he knows enough to realize he's pushing Hamilton's terrible ideas, that we're reaping the benefits of now.
@Auraruth8 This guy is full of it, as soon as I heard the word "fair" I pegged him for what he is a socialist. China "WAS" a protectionist, still is, but not to the same extent it was. Singapore is "NOW" 80% private market according to him and yet they have prospered and continue to. Cuba has instate protectionism, where the poor cannot own capitalist goods like computers and cell phones, travel is restricted to protect their aristocracy. What does this have to do with Milton Friedman?
Resume @ 25:00
@quinnrasta stopping trade with other countries, punishes the country we stop trading with. Protectionism destroys economies it does not support them!
@Nintendomanwill Ha, I must say your posting on a video that clealry, clearly (even in terms a Southern hillbilly could undertand) outlines the case for managed adjustment is hilarious. I never mentioned limiting yourself to a geogrpahical area's FOPs, you did with your theory back when people were still using horses to get around. Government economic policy has to be proactive not passive. Japan would never make cars today if wasn't for government intervention. Please argue this coherently.
@quinnrasta So If you do not support anarchism, you dont support democracy, ok you support the constitutuion but according to the constitution, the government should supply general wealfare, now cant that be interpreted in many ways? And again why do you dismiss chomsky so rapidly. He has pretty good ideas about this free trade subject as well I listened to the lecture you linked and I think he made decent points but he did not deny that the US became rich because of tariffs.
What's wrong with having a degree in finance? Finance is more "real world" based than modern neoclassical economics (not neo-Keynesian), which took equations from physics and mathematics in spite of the derision of mathematicians and physicists! Obviously, it is more grounded in reality than the discredited Austrian school of economics.
many places Allah is taking about earth as (1) 'spread out' (2) "flattened like a carpet for u to travel in road". Now answer my Question what happens on the surface of the balloon when u keep on blowing it? the surface upon balloon gets stretches/expands, Allah is talking abt this only as "'spread out" . when u keep on blowing it like room sized, can u stand/walk on it? No. when u make bigger like 'earth', YES u can walk/travel. the closer points are yet flat, but never say earth has corners!
Too bad it doesn't matter. Milton Friedman's lies are just too powerful for the world.
@quinnrasta Again that can be interpreted in a few ways... It comes down to how it is interpreted(the constiution) and if you look at the polls the population is greatly in favor of, social security for instance. So the only "crime that is commited against the rich is that the poor take some of their money now you could eliminate this crime by having the government own all the centralbanks if not even all the banks and get rid of taxes. But anyway: Chomsky and Chang =)
@quinnrasta But anyway we both know so much and we both want freedome so I think its pretty impossible for the two of us to change our stance on these issues, but I think we also might agree on a lot. But we both know that government created possibilities for people to an extent, right like keaping law and order. That is what makes commerse possible for instance. Continues- =)
@quinnrasta And again Chomsky does not support, Nazi Germany, USSR, China or Cuba. But let me ask you this Chile is a free market economy right? then why are people not that well of? I would like to hear you take on that. But please watch the Chomsky stuff, it is good, I do not label people, if you want to do it fine, but think about what it entails when you do.
After Smoot-Hawley US exports declined and were in the red until the tariff was lifted, after our economy began to grow again, if I remember correctly. This guys argument is total BS, China grew going against Russian capitalism?Well there is all kinds of capitalism, I guess. Wasn't china one of the biggest protectionist nations before turning to capitalism? What was their economy like?Didnt they practice centuries of isolationism?This guy is off his rocker, greece is a huge protectionist country
@quinnrasta with regard to the great depression.
@Auraruth8 “Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” - Thomas Jefferson, “I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.” - James Madison
soviet union /= life of marxism
marxism was around before and is around after
@quinnrasta Chile Protests: Al Jazeera's Fault Lines Follows Student Movement
Watch it. =)
@Nintendomanwill ...hoping local entrepreneurs somehow get peasents working to make digitla camcorders and blu ray players. This aint going to happen by itself, the market is jsut a price mechanism, nothing more. And defintely not something to runa country by. Space travel, the internet...government can make somethings happen the market simply cannot. Modernisatio as SE Asia has shown is one of these things.
must see for milton friedman's fanboys on youtube. Fanboys love friedman so much it's almost like religion. always questions assumptions. Maybe chang is wrong on some parts too. It's a mistake to agree just because the argument sounds good.
@Nintendomanwill I think you're plain mad my friend. Its like arguing with an computer algorithm, it has a logic of its own and can't argue based on facts. Tell me 1 country with no economic activity inside its borders that has 'garnedered the fruits of the world'. In a Disney story, maybe, in real life, Korea, Japan and Taiwan as Chang points out don't make rice or other low margin, low linkage, low EXTERNALITY (please, please look this word up, Im begging you for you rown sake here) goods.
thumbs up if you watched the whole video
huh......?
End times huxsters explanations of what the antichrist will be like are always a textbook description of Milton
@Nintendomanwill
You don't make a child do what and adult would. Unlike business which can faila and dissappear if they get it wrong, whole countries can't be subject to that sort of turbulence without riots on the streets. You speak about countries as if they have no people living in them! If you said what South Korea's compartivie advantage was in the 50s it would be something like making sackcloths, now they're producing samsung camcorders and mobiles.
11/09/89. Marxism is dead. Get on with the program.
no its not..if you live in america your school system is full of communists
@Nintendomanwill
Thanks toright wing weirdos like you we keep goign back to disneyland stuff sadly. Making sackclothes doesnt create what MODERN economists like to call 'externalities'. Micheal Porter calls them linkages. Think about why Korean chaebols exist. If I specialised as a binman could I adapt in later years, well if I cant read, probably not. Specialisngin higher end stuf requires more skills-thats where the flex comes in.
Why the w.isn,t flat?Nice try guys .But the MOTHER EARTH I.S F.LA.T
Admittedly I didn't watch any of the video, but I'm certain it doesn't take over an hour to say, "because it isnt."
It's fine. Do you, boo.