Why the ARC-170 Failed
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- The ARC-170 was one of the most interesting Star Fighters in Star Wars History, but I think by most metrics, it was ultimately a failure. We'll discuss that and more for today's Star Wars lore video!
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I used to think the ARC 170 was the best of both worlds. It's basically an X-wing with bombing capabilities and a gunner. Makes me think of a miniaturized Republic Gunship.
what if tie but hyperdrive
the Z95 headhunter meets the Y wing
I think it would be much better in universe if the perfect multi role fighter didn’t already exist in the x wing.
personally i like to think of the ARC-170 and Y-wing to be similar star fighters but being targeted at different markets. ARC-170 is like the M1 Abrams while the Y-wing is like the Leopard 2 tank. Both have very similar capabilities and mission but the Abrams has better performance but much higher cost due to its turbine engine while the Leopard's standard Diesel is cheaper. Thus the Leopard is MUCH more common with more countries using them.
ARC-170 was also exclusively used by the Republic while the Y-wing was in service with many worlds of the Galactic republic. Thus the Rebelion started out with lots of Y-wings from planetary militias who joined the Rebelion- while the only ARC-170s they had in service were once they salvaged from scrap yards of found as relics from the Clone wars.
Of course everyone needs to remember that Fighter Sized Hyperdrives are new technology that was developed around the Clone wars since we see the Jedi using Hyperdrive Rings to travel long distances and we don't see true Hyper drives in service until Revenge of the Sith.
my guess would be Hyperdrives were only present on custom built Star fighters that were too pricey for mass production and the ARC-170 was the First Generation of Hyperdrive Snub fighters to enter full service making it a trail blazer- but like many trail blazers they have lots of faults and technical issue to overcome.
The Empire fighter line was dominated by Sienar Fleet Systems which was why the ARC-170 was retired from service gradually. the TIE ADVANCED and TIE DEFENDER were intended as replacements for the ARC-170 in Imperial service.
the 170 is the best of both worlds, it just doesn't do them well enough to warrant it's cost of a 3 man crew and an astromech droid.
The ARC 170 wasn't as bad as its given credit. It just needs to be used properly
Yeah it has the battle cruiser problem. Talking real world not sci-fi, battle cruiser were basically just cruisers with battleship sized weapons and anything it couldn’t kill it could run away from. However, Admirals saw it had enough firepower to be in the line of battle so they kept on putting it in the line where they got chewed up quickly.
@@Mike5Brown Like the Alaskas, little ANGRY sisters of the Iowas..
@@CidVeldoril The Alaskas were...weird. Not quite battlecruisers in the British/German/Japanese sense, and not designated as such by the US.
Agreed
@@benjaminbrockway5998 Perhaps, but they were cool as heck. Sadly none are preserved, it would've been really cool to see one berthed next to an Iowa.
The Arc 170 would have benefit from whatever the Star Wars equivalent would be to our real life modernization programs. Imagine an upgraded version with better engines, one less crew, and additional blasters or even heavy ion cannons. Could give the B-wing a run for its money as an anti capital fighter
I think the E-wing fills that role well. Even has a similar nose
retrofit one and it'd be a far better ship for Din Djarin as well. Remove the rear gunner and copilot seats to be a tiny habitation area, slap an ion cannon on it for disabling targets, stuff like that. Far better than a Naboo starfighter IMO.
What is the second Pilotes role anyway? Looking targets for the torpedos? Giveing more situational awarness for the Pilot as he can concentrate on other stuff?
@@larslaufer301 to work In shifts on long missions
@@Restilia_ch yeah
Republic basically used the ARC 170 in the wrong role. The ARC 170 is a attack fighter that hit hard and can support ground troops for long time
so essentially an A-10 being used by the typical Ace Combat protagonist
So.....basically it was the 'A-10' of the Star Wars universe?
Also in canon ARC170 was actually broadly used by both Rebels and Empire, but intended role as heavy reconnaissance fighter.
@@madisonatteberry9720 No the K-Wing in legends is the A-10 of star wars that thing had enough weaponry on it to make a a-10 blush.
@@phoenixx913 Oh.
I think in a Rebellion-era or post-empire setting, an ARC-170 could make for a pretty good central pillar of a show. 3 characters, and droid as the cast. whether they be mercenaries or Rebels, trying to keep the aging fighter active as it’s original design becomes increasingly obsolete could even lend the ship itself becoming a character, much like the eponymous Battlestar Galactica in the RDM reimagining
Of course it would have to start out heavily modified, much like Mando’s N1
*Hey there!*
I saw your comment, like the idea, and posted one that I had, along similar lines and wondering what you thought of it, anyways, you don't have to read it, but if you are interested, then here's the 'copy and pasted' comment I made, if you do, then I thank you for your time;
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My issue with the Republic air forces was that they had too many classes, bringing up the cost.
I actually like the concept of the ARC-170, but was probably poorly used in battle, similar to how later the Empire misused their Super Star Destroyers. The ARC-170 should have been a 'special opt only' fighter.
How I would have built and used it, was give it a buoyant hull (more on that in a moment), increase the crew number to either four or six, give it bombing abilities.....which I think the ARC-170 could, in some models, already do- Anyways;
Lets go with the crew of 'six' and each members themselves have multiple skills of engineers and medical training, of course combat training from saboteur to sniper or even recovery missions for data or some intel on a certain vessel or experiment, which training alone would be expensive, but being a 'special ops' is to be expected, as well not used in large numbers anyways.
When this ARC-170 goes on a mission, one crew stays behind as a pilot to get out and go if need be, or using the automated gunners and astromech, give support. Five of the crew go out on the mission to do what is needed, if the world is a water world, like Mon Cal, and a base is underwater, then this ARC-170 is buoyant (told you I was coming back to this) and close to the water line, possibly even colored to look like the surrounding water itself so to not make it standout. The five team members go into an area, recover what they were sent to recover, or scout out, or destroy, then go back to the ARC and get the Hell out.
I would love to make a show about something like this, maybe not an 'ARC-170' but a variant or updated version, 'ARC-180' or something like that.
You need to start writing these Star Wars shows man
The ship would need a catchy name, which in turn could be the name of said show
@@thesolarhunter "The Last Arc"?
that sounds like it could be good so Disney would never go for it.
Even though this fighter was a handfull its still my favorite. It looks mean and agressive, its got big guns to punch well above its weight, and that tail gun likely made this ship come home a lot more.
Yeah, like 90% of all casualties in SW dogfights are preceded by some variant of "there's a bogey on my tail". The fact that they can't just do a quick 180nlike in Battlestar Galactica is a huge weakness.
Going by the "WWII _in space"_ theme for _Star Wars_ starfighters, most of the time a tail gunner does more to make you a sitting duck than it helps. Unless you're already so slow/unmaneuverable it doesn't matter.
@@boobah5643 why is that? Genuinely curious here
@@commandercody2980 Because the faster, more maneuverable plane gets to choose the fight, and you can (to simplify a bit) always make a faster, more maneuverable fighter by removing the tailguns and gunner and shortening the fuselage. Because a tailgunner probably only had a couple .30 cal MGs while six .50 cals is an average forward armament; even ignoring the problems caused by the pilot's maneuvering and the limited firing arcs for the tailgun the pursuing plane is throwing a _lot_ more lead.
Which isn't to say that no one tried it; both the RAF and Luftwaffe fielded fighters with tailguns at the beginning of WWII. The German plane was more useful as close air support or a night fighter (big plane could carry bombs, rockets, radar) while the British was so bad they were removing them from service during the Battle of Britain.
@@boobah5643 that actually makes sense. Thank you for the information.
The arc 170 basically went the same way the F-14 tomcat did a super strong dominant and heavy fighter that requires two pilots and sadly the maintenance cost was way too much to justify it
Not exactly. The F-14 was faster than its successor, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, while the ARC-170 was slower than an X-Wing. The F/A-18F is a tandem seat fighter. Not sure regarding the ranges of the X-Wing and ARC-170, but the F-14 had the longer range. The F-14 carried more ordinance than the Super Hornet, while the ARC-170 and X-Wing carried about the same. Too bad the F-14 couldn't be a cropped-delta wing, or some other more contemporary design.
@@pepperedash4424 would the arc be similar to the F35?
@@KarimAlKharsa I've seen the ARC-170 be described as a multi-role fighter. So in a way, yes. But I've also seen them be compared to heavy fighters of ww2.
@@KarimAlKharsa yeah but the f-35 is successful while the arc 170 wasn’t
isn't arc 170 just basically the B-Wing.
Many of the problems with the ARC-170 can be mitigated with droid technology. For example, automating the back turret, a droid co-pilot etc. all reduce crew costs greatly. Once you do that, all you need are some minor improvements, a somewhat improved engine etc. The ARC-170 just needed a little more engineering work and a change in doctrine and that would have made it one of the most terrifying starfighters in the galaxy. It also has some of the best stats for a starfighter in the Star Wars FFG RPG.
Alternatively, scrap the sucker and build 3 X Wings out of that.
@@thebighurt2495 The ARC-170 only costs 50% more (in credits) than an X-wing, and has correspondingly more firepower, armor, and shields. In other words, you are definitely getting what you are paying for. Also, the X-wing was not available for sale in the same era the ARC-170 was in use.
@@Madwand99 Eh, it's not worth the loss of 3 trained crew to one. That having been said, fair point about the timing.
@@thebighurt2495 Gair point about the crew, but the uses for the two ships are different, honestly if the Rebels used ARC's for their intended use, Aggressive Reconnaissance, I think it would've fared very well. In fact the same could be said of the Republic. It was just used in the wrong role, as a short range heavy fighter, instead of the long range hit and run capabilities it was built for. It's damn near the perfect ship for the Rebels, who use hit and run tactics quite often
@@thotpatrol9885 Generation Tech did a whole video on the A-Wing (and it's predecessor, the R22 Spearhead) and basically pointed out they're a superior scout to the ARC. Faster, stealthy, dodgy and with better sensors. That having been said, they weren't available until around Yavin.
I always though it would have been a better ship for the mandalorian with custom upgrades making it a ugly for the Mandalorian as it would fit his needs both for being a bounty hunter with holding prisoners, having the firepower to bring down other ships and armor and shields to take a punishment.
Damn that’s actually a hell of a lot better than the Naboo star fighter in terms of versatility, missed opportunity there, the amount of modifications you could do is insane, it could essentially be a completely different ship
that was my first thought too, it would also help when dealing with heavily defended targets thanks to those massive guns
While I agree on the versitility part and good options for costumization, the question is how well do you get spare parts. If the ARC was allready very little produced during its hight, I have my doubts that getting parts for repairs later on might be even possible.
Even when you switch out parts for something that is avaible during Mandos time, the performance might be hampered.
Still I would have loved to see a Mando Version of the ARC. Also I think they would had to go in a bit different direction. The Naboo fighter was made faster. Something I don't see with the ARC. Here I would guess that it would become more armored, maybe switching one of the rear turrets for a grabbling hock or some other utility device or make the rear turret even bigger and loosing the torpedos. Attacking capital ships isn't something Bounty Hunters normaly do but giveing a clear signal to persuers that you don't appriciate them with a big rear gun...yah I could imagne that.
In regards to acquiring spare parts seeing as the ship was Encom parts were readily available either in main storage on coruscant or even on decommissioned venators cruisers. Plus given the era being 60 some years in the future it would make sense to upgrade the ship with parts from other Encom ships hence my comment on making it a Ugly with say adding X wing foils to replace the heat sink foils for added power both weapon and added maneuverability even in short bursts to compensate a upgraded dual engine gutted from say a y wing or such. Even the controls can be adjustable as the main flight pod could be wired for one pilot with the secondary pod being modified into a containment tube that could be jettisoned or extracted to make deliveries and bounty collection.
Tbh the only reason I believe the naboo star fighter was chosen was because it was wider known with its nostalgia and given the nature of him transitioning from bounty hunter to mandalor him going fast from place to place was needed but impractical for him to make a living.
I completely agree. I always thought of the ARC 170 being a great choice for a Bounty Hunter as a super well rounded ship. So once the Razorcrest got destroyed in the Mandalorian I thought it would make perfect sense as an actual replacement/evolution with the hyperdrive, greatly improved dogfighting, and still some extra capacity. But when they dropped the Naboo Star Fighter I was like - what??? Dope ship but makes 0 sense for his uses. Like basically he can fit a small child (or Grogu) in the retrofitted astromech space but that’s it, so good luck bring a bounty in.. whereas an ARC 170 with some mods to improve its speed/handling (basically it’s only weakness excluding the need for an astromech) it would have been perfect and fit his aesthetic much better.
It was too much. In space superiority, you need five different fighters: Escort, Bomber, Gun Ship/Transport, Interceptor, and Light Interceptor. The ARC-170 tried to be everything and good at nothing.
Hmm, I'll see your list, and presuppose my own; Escort/Interceptor, Heavy Bomber/Transport, Light Transport/Assault Ship, Gunship variants of one or both of the heavier ships, and a close-in Superiority Fighter/Light Interceptor.
It's like everything in StarWars... stupid and fake
@@xephael3485
For the sake of establishing the setting of Star Wars, it has to be stupid and fake at some points.
I disagree... Gunships and shuttles aren't fighters.
My list:
Scout/Long Range Reconnaissance Fighter [X-Wing Variants]
Space-Superiority Fighter / Interceptor [A-Wing]
Anti-Ship Bomber [Y-Wing]
Fighter-Bomber [X-Wing]
Heavy Fighter [B-Wing]
ARC-170 attempted to be a Heavy Fighter... but the downside of Heavy Fighters is their lack of mobility compared to the rest of the spacefighters.
@@aralornwolf3140
Where do you suggest the Arc-170 role should be compared to your preferred list?
This starfighter has always been my favorite in the star wars universe. It can do just about anything, and it looks cool.
I think it made sense to have a jack of all trades fighter in the clone wars considering the variation in Separatist starfighters and capital ships, however against any other star fighter it's outperformed in each design field.
I think the ARC-170 Follows the same design philosophy as the venator, as a multi role fighter, where the venator was both a carrier and a star destroyer.
Good overall, but outperformed against a traditional carrier or traditional star destroyer.
In the end it's a good breakdown and reflection video, I enjoyed it :)
Yeah thats a good way to put it.
The point of multi-role is to be the workhorse and you can add specialize craft to a mission as needed to augment the force for the mission’s objectives. And so it’s cheaper without reducing its effectiveness. It can also swap objectives more ably than more specialized craft.
The ARC-170, though, is not multi-role. It is a fighter/attacker like the F/A-18.
Props to you for being able to look at this objectively. I just can't, i'm biased and I love the ARC-170 too much.
It is nice to still be able to get Har hitting journalism on which spaceships are the coolest in this day and age.
I feel the same way about a TIE Fighter.
"A starfighter that can't dogfight, a reconnaissance craft that's too conspicuous to do reconnaissance...
...and a quasi-bomber that has more crew than a Y-wing, but has enough firepower to take out a capital ship"
Col Burton
Someone else has seen Pentagon Wars.
@@Mourtzouphlos240 I was thinking the same
no, Col.Burton is from Command and Conquer Generals and Zero Hour, I am not trying to be rude, for all I know he is also from what you said.
“Maybe you should leave a couple of fellows behind! Put the ammo where the men go!”
“Sir…..it is a troop….carrier.”
“So? Make a couple extra trips, what’s the difference?”
I realized the other day thag whereas the OT is inspired by WWII aerial combat and fighters, it seems like the PT is based kind of on WWI. Whereas the X-Wing has 4 wings, the ARC-170 has 6 and that tail gunner; it is the Star Wars equivalent of a biplane. Actually, there WERE even triplanes in WWI, which the ARC can also be seen as.
The design influence for the ARC-170 is the P-61 Black Widow, which was also a heavy fighter
@@MichaelCasanovaMusic I could see it.
All that said, the ARC-170 is my favorite Clone Wars era fighter. I quite like it simply aesthetically, but also from a narrative POV. A ship that can perform any kind of mission is convenient because you can easily justify including it in any kind of aerospace combat scenario. And having three crew plus the droid opens up the potential for all kinds of intra-crew dynamics that you can't have with the single seat craft you typically see in Star Wars.
I could think the ARC-170 would make for a great planetary defense ship. Either based on the ground or in an orbital station. It has the punch and armor to keep itself alive while making life hell for any attacker. Strip out the no longer needed sensors to lighten the load or replace them with more weapons but keep the weight the same. Then you have a pretty darn viable defense weapon.
Head canon: The Republic had too many clones, and Palpatine thought the best ways to get rid of them faster was to shove 3 in a metal coffin instead of 1.
@@night6724 To be blunt, the ARC-170s would've been shredded by the defensive guns or Vader's X1 and Black Squadron due to their sheer size and lack of the X-Wing's agility, and if you're taking them for defensive guns, why not use two-seat S3 model Y-Wings with their own defensive turrets rather than the one-seater A4s Gold Squadron used?
To say nothing of the literal impossibility of actually making the shot without the force.
@@night6724 Cool, the big fat heavy fighters with the 19m wingspan have even less room to maneuver than the X-Wings and Y-Wings then because they're nearly twice the width of an X-Wing. The trench is barely wide enough for two 11m wide X-Wings to fly side by side to act as living shields, ARCs could only fit single file, effectively nullifying any combined defensive fire without presenting a large vertical target for the defensive turbolasers. They'd be eaten alive with even more ease than the Y-Wings or X-Wings who were putting everything into shields and engines.
@@night6724 So you're throwing out an opinion that means nothing.
Good job losing the argument.
so brutal, I love it
@@night6724 bro, the thing wound not have even fit in the trench lol
More starfighters need to follow in the ARC’s footsteps in terms of having a full crew, especially the tail gunner
Or just take advantage of basic Newtonian physics and flip over.
Well it was modeled after the P-61 Blackwidow, which had the 2 in the front and a gunner for a turret slapped on top of the fuselage. It's why the 170 is one of my top 3 fighters in SW.
Why? Just like in our world they moved from having gunners to having dedicated air superiority fighters. Look at something like the B52, after I think 3 or 4 models they removed the tail gunner position. Less man power and weight to manage.
@@xXatomic2009Xx WW2 plane?
I think starfighters just need a automatic tail gunner so less crew
I'm more of a fan of the X-wing variants, but there's just something classic about the ARC-170 to me. Might be because I saw Revenge of the Sith when I was really young, probably too young to fully understand what was happening on-screen lol.
As a quick explanation of what was happening: Spaceship go whoosh, pew pew, boom.
@@RorikH Younger me thanks you!
The ARC-170 is like a WW2 late German tank, like the Tiger.
Sure, it was deadly, and it took a lot of effort to bring one down, but they were was expensive, high maintenance, crew intensive, and difficult to produce.
If it takes 5 cheap and easy to make Vulture Droids to take down a ARC, then clearly the Vulture has an advantage in the long run.
MORE ME 110
@@thelonious2213 P 61 was succefull
True but the Tiger wasn't a late war tank
@@sunil_de6856 Maybe he meant the Tiger’s bigger, badder successor, the King Tiger
It should of been more of a bomber. Imagine the Death Star run, how different that would of been if Darth Vader had tried to come up behind one of these. The loses the rebels suffered would of been less and they would of got that thermal hole first time. It would be perfect for long range bombing of planetary targets, like you say.
Haven’t watched you in a while. Nice to see you’re still coming up with great content
Don't listen to him ARC-170 your beautiful
The overall design and mission statement of the Arc-170 reminds me a lot of the P-61 Black Widow
It might not have been especially practical, but man, was it cool as hell.
The ARC-170 is my all time favorite star fighter. I would have loved to see them used in the Rebel Alliance. I would also love to see a modified one used by a bounty hunter or something.
I like to think that the ARC has a lot in common with the P-47 performance wise; Good acceleration, excellent top speed, obsenely tough and very well armed, but they have the turning radius of a brick. The should be used as fighter-bombers. The main targets are warships, tanks, structures... wherever their advantage would be most useful. If they have to deal with fighters, then they use the same tactics the P-47's used: they get up to speed, make one good pass, run like hell, and then either line up for another run, or escape. The ARC's firepower can maximize the amount of kills in the brief amount of time the droids are in gun range, and if the Droids pursue, the tail guns, speed, and especially their durability to escape.
In short, the ARC-170 flies in straight lines, dives in straight lines, targets heavy units, and avoids turnfights with the CIS at all costs.
Now that I think of it, the ARC= P-47 comparison justifies the Z-95. Flesh it out with better performance and similar range in exchange for lighter armor and firepower, and you have a P-51 of the Headhunter, and a proper mainline fighter, to go along with the P-47 of the ARC.
Honestly, I'd be tempted to slap ARC-170 engines on a Y-Wing. I imagine that the speed of the new ugly could get up to 1250 kilometers per hour
It's funny bringing readily comprehensible real-world units like km/h immediately breaks the suspension of disbelief and underscores how broken physics is in SW because 1250 km/h is ridiculously slow in space. For reference the ISS orbits earth at roughly 25,000 km/h
1250 kph?
Star Wars space travel is usually measured in the esoteric Megalight/MGLT - are you refering to atmospheric speed?
@@starsilverinfinity yes. A bomber that flies as fast as an interceptor would be quite useful, in my opinion, on a ground base
@@starsilverinfinity Interesting! I don't remember MGLT from the books I've read, but googling it, it looks pretty standard. And then reading the unit conversion for MGLT is even more bonkers! 1 MGLT = 667 times the speed of light??? And this is supposed to be a measure of "sub-light" speed lolol
@@SolWake I wouldnt trust any conversions I dont think there are any official ones out there - but yeah, in space ships use MLGT and in atmosphere they use kph. This is interesting because ships with wildly different MLGT can often have close enough kph measurements due to the limits put in place by an atmosphere - anyways, slapping ARC engines on a Y-wings sounds fun, I wonder how it'd hold up long term tho lol
the ARC-170 was very successful for its time, but Progress always moves forward
Was replacing it with the TIE fighter really progress though?
@@RorikH for the purposes of maintaining military power over a galaxy of systems as a tyrannical galactic empire? Honestly, yeah. But for fighting an actual enemy? Hell no.
It may have failed but it's probably my favorite prequel trilogy starfighter, followed by a tie between the Delta-7 Aethersprite and the Eta-2 Actis, with the Naboo N-1 picking up 4th place and the Clone War Era Y-Wing coming in fifth.
I think it's funny how they use ARC-170s in the early seasons of clone wars, but later on switched to Headhunters, even though at the end in ROTS we only see ARCs. Seems like they should've switched the order around.
Actually if you know our worlds military history - it actually makes sense still to see the ARC-170's. When new planes are introduced, it's exceedingly rare it's completely phased out, especially in WW1/2 (Which Clone Wars is closer to WW1 with a bit of 2 thrown in). More often than not they find their ways to the rear lines/defense and training squadrons as production allows squadrons to trade up to the new aircraft. The Z-95's in Clone Wars are the new frontline fighters and seen everywhere in Clone Wars. Other than the one shot during order 66 (not sure where that is) the only real time we see ARC-170's is the battle of Coruscant - not someplace there was expected to be fighting, so more likely all units near Coruscant, and actually there, were equipped with the older ARC-170's that had been pulled from the front lines since they didn't need the newest and best where fighting wouldn't happen - and could settle on the former frontline unit till production reached a point they too could be equipped without denying frontline units of ships and replacements.
Which is either a great coincidence that it can actually work still logically - or someone really knowing there stuff though more likely I'd say it's the first option.
@@anthony7697 cool that makes sense
@@anthony7697 As new ships are introduced older ships can change roles as well. Again going back to WWII, The P-47 was originally designed to be a high altitude fighter/bomber escort until the P-51 replaced it. The P-47 then switched roles and became a low altitude close air support/light bomber, a role which it was probably better suited for than a high altitude fighter. I imagine the ARC-170 fell more into a bomber support role near the end of the war, probably escorting Y-Wings on bombing runs. The Republic seemed to have very few shielded fighters and having something that could survive within a capital ship's point defense range during a bombing run and engage fighters while the dedicated bombers hit their target would have been an invaluable asset.
@@TheSuperhomosapien Nice. Lots of info in the replies👍
@@TheSuperhomosapien I would personally place ARC-170 as ground support fighters like the A10 instead of escorting bombers since they already are going to be the main target to rank hits and I would want something fast enough to deal with other fighters
They tried to treat the Arc-170 as a fighter instead of an interceptor-bomber.
Basically a F-4 phantom
Why does the ARC-170 need 3 pilots plus an astromech anyway? What could the ship possible have that requires so much pilot input? You could definitely get rid of one pilot at least I think.
I think the co-pilot handled the advanced sensors arrays and some of the weapons systems.
The "copilot" probably functioned more like the RIO (Radar Intercept Officer) in an F-14. He likely ran the sensor suite and could lock up targets beyond visual range, basically extending the effective range of the weapons. Being able to accuratly shoot at your enemy before they can shoot back at you is a significant advantage. That extra pilot was also probably the most important crewmember when the ARC-170 was fulfilling the ReConnaissance portion of its Aggressive ReConnaissance mission profile.
Pilot, sensor / weapon operator, rear gunner
@@tomaskops7119 you’d think they could’ve let the droid handle the rear gun, or the navigator if it really needed human control
Perfect ship for wolf pack raiding and anti piracy. Sadly they were not used for that
I think the ARC-170 is one of the coolest starfighter designs in SW and an absolute beast in combat, but I can see how things like maintenance costs and personnel requirements would make for a quick fall from favor once there was no longer an army of clones ready to pilot them. For both the Empire and the Rebellion, cheaper craft just make more sense.
For me I feel like another problem with this craft is that it’s too big, especially for its role. If the Republic wanted a recon ship, they could have made a smaller, more nimble craft in order to better fulfill that role, especially if they got caught by patrols. The ARC-170 sticks out like a sore thumb with its size and should have just been used solely as a heavy fighter instead
That same problem would have probably effect the rebellion, though in a different way. I doubt many of the smaller cells would be able to use them simply because if they didn't have a hanger big enough to hold it, then the moment it is damaged it becomes useless. I don't think that to many small ships or hide bases could really hold enough of them to justify getting whatever specific parts/tools needed.
I still have to admit this is one of my favorite fighters alongside the V-Wing
Still my favorite Clone Wars era fighter
I missed this kind of content from you, please bring back the battle breakdowns!
Hey! I have that book in an updated edit. Really informative it is.
Yeah, while I'm sure it could be useful in certain situations, if I were a venator captain I'd be pretty quick to trade in a single ARC 170 for three Z-95s.
I agree. The z95 is a great multi-purpose fighter with great flexibility. The arc 170 seemed to be made with the idea of being able to destroy gunships, light and medium corvettes, and assist in bombing runs by destroying gun fortifications with it's medium laser cannon and it's torpedoes. Not exactly good at dealing with the absurd number of fighters the cis had that's for sure.
Or 10 v-wings
@@alaskanbullworm5500 Umm, don't follow. A single ARC 170 requires a crew of 3 to operate, so 3 potential pilots. Where do you get 10 from? Who pilots the other 7 v-wings?
@@Cornel101 sorry, didn’t realize we were doing exact math, I thought we were talking about more effective interceptors.
But would you trade 3 ARCs for 3 Z-95s? I assume you can't fit three Z-95s in the same hanger space as one ARC
Not to mention, in the Empire’s case, it’s easier to control a star fighter corps, if they don’t all have hyperdrives and are reliant on a capital ship.
You mentioned the scout y wing ....thank you so much. A awesome small recon ship. That is not talked about much . Another reason this channel is great ,you hit subjects an things rarely spoken of . 👍🏻
It’s interesting to compare the ARC-170 to its real-world inspiration, the Northrop P-61 Black Widow. And it’s not just the visual design that was used for the inspiration. The P-61 was armed with 4 forward-facing 20mm cannons, which on their own were on the larger side of aircraft-mounted weapons of the time. It also used a radar mounted in the nose, and was the first US warplane to do so. Plus, the P-61 was designed as a night fighter, which can be compared to the hit-and-fade missions you mentioned.
Plus, an additional four .50 caliber machine guns in a dorsal turret and wing hard points for bombs and rockets.
Looking at this ship from a historical perspective (i.e. WW2) I think the ARC-170 was based on the common heavy fighter of the time (i.e. the Junker series or, to some degree, the P-38). Applying that point of view. I think scrapping the rare gunner system and slapping a bigger droid, increasing thrust of the engines, and perhaps giving it a longer range would give it a neat role. Course, that sounds a hell of a lot like an X-Wing, but considering using mothballed units and modifying them would be cheaper than running with new units, I think it certainly could have become a space P-38, which has a very special place in my heart.
Between the hunchbacked shape, rear gunner, and heavy armor, my guess is the IL-2.
@@IncredibleMD Check out the P-61 Black Widow. In many aspects beyond aesthetics, the ARC-170 is as close as one can get to a Black Widow in space.
@@MalfosRanger I definitely see where you're coming from, there.
How would you change the Ship, to make it better?
I'd use the X-Wing
@@EckhartsLadder Agreed.
Remove the need for a gunner, commit to being 2 classes of fighter at once, best of both worlds. ATM it's trying to be 5 different ships at once with no compromise and ends up being mid af
@@EckhartsLadder Didn't you say that the Arc could beat the Xwing?
yay a vid on my favourite fighter!
I used 2 Revell X wings to build a sort of engineering mule fighter with the Revell ARC 170 model; basically widened the X-wing S-foil hinge assemblies to fit in the hull cutout, and it worked awesome. Modified the 3rd seat to be a camera/droid assembly, and gave the 2nd seat a sort of viewfinder/scope for the rear pilot
Essentially, it was an ARC 170 hull with X wing engines and S-foils. Looked awesome to me. Very similar scale so I could put the X-wing pilots in the front seats. My headcanon is that it was the engineering mule for the X-wing S-foils and engine systems.
Can't wait to watch the Kenobi next week
I think seperating the Arc 170 into
1.Aggressive raiding craft and
2.Advanced Reconnaissance craft is better
1. Aggressive raiding craft 170 -
* Remove the heavy sensors and the rear and secondary gunner , replaced with specialized droid
* decrease the target profile
* The slow heavy turbo laser cannon is replaced with light , rapid (fastest fire rate if it's era ) blaster laser cannons moved to nose of ship
* Wing mounted bomb bay 6 ion torpedoes (removing shields for the things following), 16 micro Concussion missiles(for quick anti fighter ) , bomb bay with siesmic charges to destroy pursing swarm of droids , medium shields, Faster engines
2. Advanced Reconnaissance Craft - advanced long range powerful scanning sensors , jamming and hacking tech , droid electronic warfare systems, moderate stealth coating equipment. No weapons and light shields (as not expected to fight)
The Aggressive raiding craft is a Quick hit and run craft , escorting the y wings into , hit and run attacks on separatist targets , The Arc 170(raid) and the Ywing are complementary to each other
A first wave of very fast Arc 170 clear the swarms of droids with rapid laser and Concussion missiles and Neutralize the shields with ion torpedoes, the following wave of moderately fast y wings bombard the unshielded Target and leave in the Arc 170's cover fire , a third wave may depend on the damage done to enemy
The Advanced Reconnaissance craft is a heavy Scout , reconn, patrol craft with far powerful droid warfare of it's era , its difference appearance and role to the original Arc 170 is like of a Standard Gozanti and the IGV -55 surveillance vessel (Listener Gozanti from Rebels) , It can hack and Listen ito Enemy , Hack and Control enemy Small units , patrol, or even jamm the Enemy swarm of droids , it can stealthyly patrol an area and can request a Task force if enemy is spotted
Looks like a. Rebel hit and run Squadron but with better Republic starfighters and planned by designed by thrawn
Maybe a modular Experimental weapons platform like the tie m's
Maybe
Arc 170 matches with the Arc trooper , maybe personal starfighters for arc troopers
I noticed one of the few Republic era ships the Empire used a lot and even made it’s main fighter before the TIE Line would be the V Wings, they even remained relatively common long after the Galactic Civil War.
I'm hearing some smack talk about my baby (Y-Wing).
The "Workhorse of the rebel fleet" was significantly more agile than assumed and could dogfight far better than other ships carrying similar payloads. It was a lowercase b bomber that was so good at it's job that nobody could imagine it being a multirole ship. But it was.
The Y-Wing breaks the mould of "jack of all trades, master of none".
I think that the Arc170 truly shines as an escort fighter for larger ships, particularly things like supply convoys and transports. From a dogfighting perspective it's absolutely a formidable ship thanks to the rear gun and heavy shielding, but it's low speed makes it ineffective at pursuit, something you have to worry about less if your job is protecting a slow moving ship as it makes it's way through space. (That being said, being able to chase down enemies that you've driven back has significant value as it weakens potential follow-up attacks... assuming they're not luring you away to strike your charge while you're pursuing. )
Being able to go for long distances without need of resupply is another perk. Not every convoy will be able to bring support craft for their escorts, after all.
Given that, I do think that the Arc170 can easily find itself a sitting duck, caught out by larger numbers of faster ships without the protection of it's own fleet. I'm sure the republic lost a great deal of pilots by simply being unable to effectively escape from superior numbers of vulture droids.
As for the "Aggressive Reconnaissance" tag... I'd say that it's almost as poorly named as the Protoss "Scout". It is neither good at aggression nor reconnaissance. Leave the scouting to a ship that can actually run away, and the aggression to ships that can pursue their enemies effectively.
I agree, escort missions, ground attack and CAS are much better uses for it. I do think it’s not all that bad for long-range, independent scouting missions tho, raw speed doesn’t matter so much for those compared to range, survivability, communications suite, etc. The heavy crew especially is good for that, 3 clones and an astromech is ridiculous if the fighter is in a space superiority role, but for long range reconnaissance you could have one pilot fly while the other sleeps, and you have a second person to handle comms and navigation once you actually make contact with the enemy.
#askeck: I know the Galactic Empire would devastate the UNSC, but how would Zinji’s Empire or the Pentastar Alignment fair against the UNSC at it’s greatest extent pre covenant war?
Nice video man
Eck going out of his way to make a video attacking the best Clone Wars Era fighter
#askeck what warships, asides from dreadnoughts, did the Mon Cal have during the clone wars?
Lore Versus video request:
Resurgent vs. Starhawk
Tie Striker vs. New Republic V-Wing
World Devastator vs. Vong Worldship
Tie Silencer vs. X-83 Twintail
Tie Silencer vs. Tie Defender (legends version)
Keldabe vs. ISD II
MC90 vs. Nebula class star destroyer
Nebula class vs. Pellaeon class
Majestic class vs. Bothan Assault Cruiser
FOTR’s Mandator II portrayal vs. Subjugator
Praetor vs. Subjugator
EAWX: TR’s Mediator portrayal vs. Resurgent
Starhawk vs. Bulwark MK III
The ARC had an Imperial variant? Makes me wonder if you could make a video on every Imperial ship that was a variant to a Republic counterpart/predecessor.
I always love to see the dogo at the end. Can't help it but smile every single time. I wonder what's his name.
Outtro never gets old
I can see it being used by Government backed Space Navy. But for Rebels who didn't have that many resources, maybe you could keep couple of them maintained and with crews when you don't need speed, but firepower will do. IDK troop support? But Rebels didn't do much ground operations apart from special operations etc.
I always used to think the ARC 170 was a bad a Republic Star Fighter it was good for CAS or Ground support in Planet but in space the ARC 170 seemed worsed then the Z95 which was
1: Way more faster
2: Way faster fire-rate because their vulture droids and super fast and can maneuver pretty good
3: It still also had shields making it perfect agasint the Vultures and Hyena's
Spams like button because it’s Eck, only to realize the video is about the failure of one of the coolest fighters ever. Talk about complex feels
I can see the ACR-170 being useful as an anti-frigate sort of ship, blasting away with its heavy cannons instead of having to spend proton torpedoes. Also has some use against gunships and corvettes, which proper capital ships may have trouble hitting.
It might also be useful in a role that we don't see very often - as anti-heavy fighter/bomber fighters. AGAINST a shields-heavy foe like the X-wing, Y-wing or TIE Defender, the substantial power of the cannons allows them to one-shot targets that would otherwise take multiple hits to take down.
Maybe useful against a y wing but the defender or the x wing would outmanouver it very easy.
"For one there was a better successor ship, the x wing."
Do you honestly believe that x wings were more readily available than arc 170's were? By the GCW era, arc 170's would've been military surplus. I'd imagine the rebel alliance used quite a bit more than we actually see on screen, simply due to their availability compared to that of an x wing.
An x wing was a brand new starfighter and was not easy to get ahold of. In legends it took several raids just to get enough to replace their old z95's.
It's not like these ships were popcorn, available at any old convenience store.
Edit: if lack of flight crews were the problem, they should have had a heavier focus on capital ship combat.
I think the lack of flight crews are exadurated to an extent. However, for every 1 arc 170, they could field 3 x wings... the problem is getting the x wings.
Edit 2: I don't think you can justifiably say it was "overshadowed by other star fighters of its era" when you openly admit it could do what they did and fairly well. The main difference in its era was cost, not how effective it was.
You literally state that Y wings were cheaper. As such the republic probably chose to field more Y wings and z95's, since Y wings never ran alone.
I feel like you lost your point towards the end of this video.
It was not over shadowed by them, it was a matter of practicality, and logistics.
Edit 3:to your point that they wouldn't use arcs as recon fighters because they had y wing long probes for that.
starwars.fandom.com/wiki/T-65BR_X-wing_reconnaissance_starfighter
What's the point of this fighter then? Sorry if I'm coming off passive agressive, but I really think you did this fighter dirty in this video. The rebels would find uses for this thing. They aren't stupid.
The Rebellion favored the X-Wing for several major reasons- it was easier to source parts, it had the same controls as many common 'hoppers' and other craft, and it was overall easier to build and maintain. They may have been 'new' but the overall guts of the ship relied on a lot of stuff that already existed in plenty around the galaxy.
The ARC may have performed well, and used similar design principles, but my understanding was it reached that performance by using some much harder to come by materials, and much more complicated manufacturing.
@@chrisblake4198 Source parts?
Easier to source parts for a brand new fighter?
Somehow I think somebody writing that didnt understand how surplus works.
The more readily available parts would've been for old ass stuff like the arc 170.
@@chrisblake4198 Well, the parts for the arc 170 logically had to still be around aswell.
At least with the turbo tank they explain that parts for it were hard to find after a while due to the empire scrapping them in favor of something easier to maintain. And by scrapping I mean melting down.
Alot of arcs would've been melted down too, but I would say the availbily of something like an arc (mass produced easier than a turbo tank) compared to the turbo tank would be alot higher, given the nature of the complexity behind the way the turbo tank moved.
I don't see why the rebels wouldn't have used these.
@@chrisblake4198 Honestly I'm not sure about the lore concerning the ARC's manufacturing process, it was obviously mass produced enough for them to be a somewhat main line fighter in episode 3, which means whatever techniques they used, logically, couldn't have been too complex.
I'll have to look up the lore on the manufacturing process, but I could've sworn it wasnt anything too complicated.
@@mr_h831 Because TWENTY YEARS passed between then and the GCW. Most of the surviving ARC-170 parts stocks were either depleted or scrapped well by then due to simple attrition. It's like asking why nobody but minor nations that can't afford anything new fly F-86s by 1980 despite like 10,000 of them having been built
That two-decade interval was enough to kill any real Alliance interest in using ARC-170s over the far easier to acquire Z-95 or Y-Wing. And then the X-Wing came along after that two-decade period doing everything the ARC-170 does, and doing it better with less pilot workload, meaning it can be smaller, nimbler, easier to modify, easier to build and repair, and only require a pilot and astromech droid compared to the three-crew ARC-170.
Is fáil? I like that ship have a frickin turret on the backpack
I think using it for scouting, hit and runs and escorts would be fine. I would link the forward laser canons to the pilot and add a droid to be the rear gunner. Incom used similar parts in all their ships so finding parts wouldn’t have been a problem and the price would’ve been cheaper than an x-wing. It wasn’t meant for dog fighting but I think an average pilot would live longer in a Arc than a Eta or Tie despite being interceptors do to shields, armor, rear gunner and a hyperdrive.
I'm always going to have a soft spot for the ARC-170 as I love crew served vehicles.
My issue with the Republic air forces was that they had too many classes, bringing up the cost.
I actually like the concept of the ARC-170, but was probably poorly used in battle, similar to how later the Empire misused their Super Star Destroyers. The ARC-170 should have been a 'special opt only' fighter.
How I would have built and used it, was give it a buoyant hull (more on that in a moment), increase the crew number to either four or six, give it bombing abilities.....which I think the ARC-170 could, in some models, already do- Anyways;
Lets go with the crew of 'six' and each members themselves have multiple skills of engineers and medical training, of course combat training from saboteur to sniper or even recovery missions for data or some intel on a certain vessel or experiment, which training alone would be expensive, but being a 'special ops' is to be expected, as well not used in large numbers anyways.
When this ARC-170 goes on a mission, one crew stays behind as a pilot to get out and go if need be, or using the automated gunners and astromech, give support. Five of the crew go out on the mission to do what is needed, if the world is a water world, like Mon Cal, and a base is underwater, then this ARC-170 is buoyant (told you I was coming back to this) and close to the water line, possibly even colored to look like the surrounding water itself so to not make it standout. The five team members go into an area, recover what they were sent to recover, or scout out, or destroy, then go back to the ARC and get the Hell out.
I would love to make a show about something like this, maybe not an 'ARC-170' but a variant or updated version, 'ARC-180' or something like that.
You realize your modified ARC is more-or-less an _Omicron_ class attack shuttle, right?
@@boobah5643 Okay, I never got a notification on your comment, so I am sorry I did not respond when it was first posted.
Second off, nope.
It’s cool but too over designed
Not gunna lie I’d love a lore breakdown like this for the z-95 headhunter
@Eckhartsladder Could you do a battle between the GDI Mammoth MK2(Mammoth walker) from C&C(command and conquer) 2 Vs the AT-AT, I know you probaly don't know anything about Command and Conquer(no offense to you), but I feel like it would be an interesting little discussion/comparison thing for you.
Arc 170 is perfect yet should have removed the large cylinder engines, the heavy turbo cannons , mid Cockpit and the droid cockpit... remodeling for a pilot , co pilot , replaceable droid for repairs and control light twin turbo laser's. The hyper drive and shields should remain...
At least it wasn't a copy of everything before it like everything in the newer prequels lmao or an outright abomination of a slow moving bomber.
I like the idea of the Star Fortress, mostly because it's been bothering me that the Y-Wing doesn't seem to have a bomb/torpedo bay anywhere. (They might just stick them to the hull with magnets, at which point why couldn't you stick them to anything you wanted?) In my ideal scenario, the Star Fortresses would've been mostly for cargo hauling but retrofitted to carry as many bombs as they could to explain why they were so weak, and then in episode 9 (a few years later) we could see that they took the basic design, did a major overhaul to boost the shielding, engines, and turrets, and re-christened it the T-Wing.
Hopefully you do one for the LAAT gunship
Holding by that this is the coolest design of a star-wars fighter
Coming back to this, I've had a couple thoughts- the ARC-170 has uses beyond combat that the dedicated bombers or interceptors lack, mainly it's reconnaisance abilities. You send out your Y and V wings when you're engaging in combat and need something blown up, but the vast majority of the time at war is spent waiting for the fight. But when the fight isn't happening, you can send the ARCs out on scouting missions, sometimes long ones that may require sleeping in shifts (the benefit of it's 3 man team), to find where the enemy is. Then when the fight is happening, the ARCs are obviously going to get involved rather than sit in the hangers. Though it would've been nice if we'd gotten some info like "it doesn't strictly need a co-pilot, and often during large engagements the co-pilot would instead be out piloting another fighter". There's also the possibility that it was designed before the outbreak of the Clone Wars, when making a ship that can do things other than just battle like doing double duty as a policing vessel might be appealing and play a part in it's design philosphy- like how the cloud cars had two pilots, and one could pilot while the other checks out another ship's permits or cargo manifest.
Could you do a video about startfighter combat, weapons, ships tactics etc
It'd be interesting if the mounted those ball-turret lasers from the laats on a starfighter - imagine making strafing runs against capital ships with them!
I’ve always seen this ship as bait similar to the German ju-87 G, the Stuka with cannons that served a strike aircraft role, but could fend off fighters and serve a light bomber roll if necessary.
I had the Hasbro ship. It was pretty big and hard for my kid to play with. But looked cool.
The worst part of the arc 170 has gotta be its ridiculously high requirement of pilots, when your army has 3 million soldiers which is puny for a war, and new troops take 10 years each to be battle ready, you can’t be wasting 3 men for every single starship, especially when their your main fighter
The ARC-170 reminded me of the WW2 Planes that were outfitted with large guns - JU-87 G Variant, the IL-2-37 and the Hurricane 40mm.
I think that the fact that the Republic used so many generalized ships and vehicles really shows the quality of the Clone pilots and operators. They didn't need a dedicated dogfighter because the Clones were skilled enough (and could coordinate together) that a heavy fighter was sufficient. But because it requires such complex coordination between the crew, it fell out of use once the Empire stopped relying on high quality Clones in favor of drafted soldiers and servicemen
I had a ARC-170 mini model that was 100% metal and was very detailed, brought me a lot of joy as kid. I passed it down to my nephew along with all my figures. He enjoyed them a lot as kid until he found out what an iPad was lol but he has his favorites set up in his room now and has been telling me about SW stuff he’s learned. I’m a proud uncle to say the least
My head cannon is that the ship was named by Anakin with the "reconnaissance" part of the name being similar to the "negotiations" part of "aggressive negotiations."
I think it could work quite well as a bounty hunter ship, you could use the second seat as a small living area and the rear seat as a prison and have an astromech deal with the rear turrets and co-piloting
The ARC170 has always hit me as an idea mercenary ship for a small team of 3 or maybe even 4 with some modification. The way that it can carry a surprisingly large amount of cargo, travel long distances, and do a lot of damage with its impressive firepower honestly put it in the running for ships that I thought would replace Mando’s old ship.
The ARC-170 reminds me in some ways of the Northrop P-61 Black Widow of WWII, particularly in the profile of the canopy.
Reminds me of the Douglas Skypirate, now that I think about it.
I was a bit shocked to hear you say "zed" then I remembered that you're Canadian.
The impression of Arc-170 gave me when I was playing Starsector is that the large wingspan of it make it a high profile target.
a slightly bigger than usual gun would eb great for strafing runs and taking on larger droids (or corvettes) but for the most part the empire had their big fast ships for those duties.
I actually like that there was some doctrinal dead ends in the clone wars vs direct transition to the empire format.
I always thought the notion of a starship classified as "fighter" but being way way bigger than a traditional one-man ship to be fascinating. The Longsword from Halo definitely fits that definition, being extremely heavily armed with both guns and ordnance, as well as the real-life Tu-28, which was the single biggest plane to still be classified as a fighter. the ARC very much feels like the SW version of a ship like those, only a great deal smaller. I am actually curious about possible SW ships, in either the Legends or Disney canon, that are sort of like that. The Skipray Blastboat comes to mind, at least for me.
Vs matchup Sgt. Johnson(Halo) vs Captain Rex(Star Wars)
Johnson gets Br 55, 1 m6 sidearm and marine BDU
Rex gets DC 15 rifle his pistols and phase 2 clone armor
Have you done a video on the Snowspeeder
The ARC-170 reminds me of a WWII Northrop P-61 Night Fighter, America's first purpose built radar equipped with both four .50 cal. heavy machine guns and four 20 mm auto-cannons. It, too, had a crew of three; pilot, Gunner, and radar operator.
I love the sound of the engine, it reminds me of WW2 fighter plane engines.
Please do a video on the z95 headhunter in my opinion is the unsung hero of the rebel alliance
The ARC 170 has a amazing look to it. Now it think we can keep the overall look of it by beefing up the size and turning it more into a freighter with more cargo and moving spaces so that the three pilots have somewhere to move around in long voyages. Or if the slim it down. I don't see why a astromech can't take over for the pilot and rear gunner. Then use the extra space for either bomb storage or room for a better faster engines