Wingspan really is too reliant on luck. I get making the comparison with Terraforming Mars because they are both card-based engine building games, but there is one thing that doesn’t make TM feel as much like a luck fest: drafting. TM with drafting is considerably better than TM without drafting. While Wingspan does reward skill, the game is still basically decided by if your opening hand synergizes with your goal cards and the end of round goals. Wingspan has no drafting variant like TM or even a simple mulligan rule to smooth out that glaring issue. However, I am glad to say Oceania does alleviate that design oversight by introducing ways to reset the bird feeder and bird bank.
You can easily house rule a mulligan. In fact I have done so several times. But also your game is not decided by your first hand, you can adapt. With TM I may have the plant Corp and then never receive any green cards wasting a crucial ability. Drafting won't eliminate luck you can still get hosed and it's three times longer to play then Wingspan.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Your example on TM, is actually exactly what happened to me when I played the game for the first time. Some corporations allow to adapt more easily, like the one that has a lot of capital. A friend was playing that corporation and ended up throwing a meteor on me when things were going slightly better for me. So after my rocky start with not a lot of plant cards, I was completely out of the game when we had just passed the midway point of the game. Ended up in last place and at no point in the game I could have been in first or second position. 3rd maybe, if that meteorite wasn't thrown on me. But 1st and 2nd were far ahead. It was a learning experience. Since, it was my first time playing it (and the others had played it 2 or 3 times at that point), I went for a corporation which gave me a clear direction to go in (plants). Because there's a lot of reading and I didn't really want to hold the game up because I wanted to read everything. Downside is, other corporations with more open decissions can adapt more easily to a setback. Don't get me wrong, I like Terraforming Mars, but it has luck involved as well. You can mitigate it quite a bit. Thanks to drafting, choice of corporation, etc. But you're absolutely right that you can get screwed over if you're unlucky. In that game the only thing I could do was try to learn as much about the cards as possible. Basically reading as many as possible before passing them through.
@@skyblazeeterno Some like the appeal of a game set in 19th century industrial age, to them I could say, read a history book as that setting bores me to tears. To each their own.
It is a “design oversight” to make a decision about the balance of luck versus skill in your game design? It did occur to you, did it not, that the designers know there is luck in the game? It does occur to you, does it not, that other people are also intelligent? Not sure if you have given wingspan much of a chance. I play with a common group, and the same person almost always wins, a strong sign that the game is more than luck. No, it’s not proof. Yes, it’s only one example. Geewhiz, turns out other people can think too.
I personally measure the weight of a game by how fast and efficiently I can explain the rules and basic strategies to new players. That being said Concordia is a game that many people probably overlook as "too heavy" but all it takes to introduce it to new players is just explaining the effects of each of the 7 starting cards each player gets for about 10 minutes.
Yeah but actually doing well is a while other level and that is still 7 effects to explain and they aren't basic actions. Those weird Meeples, for example are a fiddly unintuitive aspect. You got scoring income for regions which is a separate thing. Plenty enough to overwhelm a new or light player. Assuming they don't fall asleep 😂
Finally someone giving whistle stop some praise, I have it in my collection but the getting it to the table is my own qualm. Great to see it on the list one of the main reasons i decided to watch the video. I skimmed through a bit and noticed the name and said nah it cant be, im glad i wasnt right.
Agree with Whistle Stop, the rules are just a few paragraphs but the amount of shenanigans you can get up to and combo moves you can make is fantastic.
Wonderful list. I initially bought Wingspan to get my wife more into gaming after she fell in love w/ Viticulture EE. Wingspan at first was just plopping down random cards and hoping for a good score. However, once the combos started happening, the choices and various combos gained a whole lot of depth. I’ve ordered Rune Stones based upon your recommendation. The pictures of the board setup look very busy but it sounds like a great game. I found TheCrew for two players doesn’t work, even with the Jarvis AI. Thanks for a very helpful review.
Can still hate trains as a concept. Also Ticket to Ride could literally be rethemed into anything else and the game wouldn't change. Replace trains with taxis or buses - problem solved. With train games I'm talking about the awful 18XX style for the most part.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Makes sense. I don't think I have played a train game beyond TTR, so I can't really talk. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition. Nice list btw.
The scoring in Wingspan is not that easy. I question that pick. But here is a game to consider: Istanbul! :-). Coatl and Calico would also make good options. Thanks for the video.
Istanbul can fit, just not a massive fan. I don't find scoring in Wing hard at all, you just follow the pad and most things are simply "each is worth 1point" There's definitely depth in this game though, I win more often then lose and believe me I don't have great luck generally! 😂 You can't auto pilot this.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Wingspan is a great game I like but have yet to master. I rarely score higher than 75. What I ment about scoring is that you do not feel the scoring during the gameplay. An egg is a point. A tucked card is a point. But those end of round bonuses are not concrete. I love the birds. I love the game mechanic. Light reserve on score. Overall, a great game that will please a lot of people.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Thank you for making awesome videos! And it's such a neat idea to feature other boardgame reviewers. I've subscribed to them as well. I'm really enjoying the rise of so many new voices, and discovering existing ones I did not really encounter before (like all those top quality German reviewers). Teehee, so many more top X lists to go through. 😁
I have said in the past and will say it again you are a channel that deserve to be bigger, I don't like you tastes specially on game time for games all the time but I love you content that is well put out and shows a lot of care and love for the hobby. And about your list I think is a great one my only complaint is the crew but not your selection it makes sense is just the prize it got so please keep doing great content
By the way, regarding your original list, it had Innovation. I absolutely LOVE Innovation, but it's such a pain for me to teach and players have a hard time navigating the complexity in their first two plays. It's especially bad, since unless you hold yourself back immensely, new player is not going to enjoy it since they won't understand everything you are doing. And then there are the extra victory conditions.
Not a fan of trains? The Ticket to Ride boxes behind you speak a different story... ;) Thanks for the TTR list by the way, bought Nordic countries as our first TTR because of it. 👍
Ticket to Ride could be anything though. In fact the mini sets have already used buses and taxis. Trains in themselves are boring but I'm more referring to the typical train game of companies and shares.
This list definitely has moderate depth, but for those going for even more depth, here's a few to consider. (More depth is not necessarily better, just a preference) Going for ~15 minutes to teach 1. Bus 2. Age of Steam 3. The Estates 4. Hanimakoji 5. Roads & Boats 6. Castell These aren't for everyone, they're pretty deep (except maybe Hanimakoji) and some will say dry, but they're easy to teach and learn and have more intense depth. Also, Go and Chess, but I really don't like those...
Han might have been on the old list. I wouldn't even go near anything made by Splotter, just don't enjoy a single game they make. And I'm not sure I'd consider Age of Steam or Roads and Boats to be low complexity either. Bus maybe.
In my personal list I would add Concordia. I just opened the package and was able to pick it up in about 10 minutes and teach it to my wife, and were new gamers. The simplicity is in that you have 1 action each turn (play a card!) and the complexity is in the combination of points doled by the card at the end of the game.
I feel that Arboretum belongs on such a list: super simple rules, yet there's a lot of complexity in it. On your turn you draw two cards, either blindly or from discard piles. Then you play a card and discard a card. And you have to create a tableau of cards where you'll have chains starting and ending with the same tree type, while keeping enough value in your hand to score that tree type. Decisions can be really painful for such simple gameplay.
Super list, I’d suggest Bus, the rules are basically a flyer, it all seems so simple, the. You play..... the tightest knife fight in a phone booth I have ever come across
Great video! I have a few new games to pick up..... and deliver. Also, a lapel mic would make your videos even better! I recently picked up a wireless mic for $40, the average cost of a single game :)
I find my shotgun mic is fine for main videos but I have considered a lapel mic for the tabletop stuff, problem is I've never found one I considered good quality or didn't pick up every shirt ruffle.
Calico was a shortlist, but a lot of it is kind of push your luck. Quacks is all push your luck and I just find that mechanic isn't really one of depth. Tiny Towns I didn't find that enjoyable but I've only played the basic version of it.
Very interesting statement you made: In the Isle of Cats segment, you mentioned being "used to games" and that it made it easy for you to learn/teach one. Can you say more about that? I only recently got back into board games, and am a good reader generally, but rulebooks and even videos take me way longer than they should to grasp--even for some really simple games so that I'm kicking myself later wondering why it took so long! I keep wondering if there'll come a point where once I've learned a few of them I'll get faster at learning others, as if it's a skill one can develop. I desperately hope so...
Yeah it just comes with experience. I've played many forms of card and miniature games including RPG's all my life. Board Games have been in and out but the focus for the last 8 years. The more you play games, the more you get used to hearing certain rules over and over. Like someone can say to me "your manage your deck like most deck builders", I'll know already the gist of what I should be doing. Same for something like "worker placement". It's not something that comes instantly. I even did my Glossary series to help people with terminology. Don't feel downhearted if something takes a while to learn, everything takes practice. It also depends what games you're trying to get back into, maybe scale down the complexity for now? I see many try to jump into a huge 2-3 hour Euro while barely knowing board games in general and it's just too overwhelming for them.
@@PablowingUrMind They're working on the third expansion for it and you can already sign up to get notified. Just poke around the last KS update and you should find it.
Excellent, nice list.😃 I guess I will need to give a couple of them a try. Might be nice for my friends who do not regularly play. The Isle of Cats and Wingspan were already a great success with them 😁
I am pretty new to this board game hobby and love lists like these, specially when there are a few not so well know games on them. That chakra game looked beautiful! A game I find very easy to learn but very tricky to play is Tiny Towns. Great fun and beautiful production!
Abstract strategy game always have low complexity and great depth. Just look at onitama, hive and santorini. It's very simple to teach not complex at all but man it's complex
I'd much rather they were taxis or some other kind of transportation but the game doesn't feel like you're using trains really, it's just a connecting tool.
I don't like many of his games and the ones I do like wouldn't qualify for this list in terms of complexity. I've not played Through The Desert though.
How's Isle of cats with two players? Because I love me some polyomino games but most of the times I play them when I want to introduce players to boardgames or if I go to my family and need some easier games. I don't really pull them out when we play with two because with Barenpark for example it isn't that interesting with two. Where would you put Isle of Cats?
I find Baren just fine with two. This one works fine also because you have only one person to draft against therefore you gamble on seeing cards return to you.
Ooh, Wingspan is definitely not high depth! High variability definitely, but not a lot of depth. There's too much randomness of cards for it to have a lot of depth.
@@TheBrokenMeeple i hope they put mulligan as a mechanic in the game. My 2nd game with it was a disaster, my goal was almost useless the entire game. The cards in the market doesnt combo with any of my cards and goals, to the point im just randomly drawing cards than getting a useless bird that is faceup, while my opponent is doing crazy combos very early in the game. Damnnn
I disagree, I mean you can house rule a mulligan fine but even with the card draw there are plenty of tactical choices and decisions to make with the card abilities and the timing of when you get food vs cards etc. Also everyone is subject to the same card draw luck as each other. If wingspan can't count as high depth then I'm stating that Terra forming Mars has no depth because of the luck of card draw /draft in that, except that has repurcussions for a 3 hour game.
@@TheBrokenMeeple ah I see what you did there! IMO the depth comes from choosing a well rounded team from the pool of players (assuming you have less than the max player count), deciding on whether to split the party up or stay relatively together, trying to balance exploring versus reveal with the time deck, deciding if it is worth it to exert for that extra AP, etc.
I don’t remember the previous top ten so these may have been there: Abyss: Conspiracy Arboretum Azul Biblios Fantastic Factories Mandala (2p only though) Annnd Too Many Bones of course
Lol there is no way TMB would make this list! I considered Azul but there's only so much room for depth there. I'm not changing my style of play or tactics from game to game.
@@TheBrokenMeeple haha Too Many Rules?! TMB was a joke of course...but good point with Azul actually, hadn’t looked at it that way. Might explain why it hasn’t come off my shelf in quite a while
@@TheBrokenMeeple Thank you so much for replying to my comment. It may not be much, but it made my day. Being able to interact with other members of hobby board games gives me joy. I definitely agree with you on Wingspan as a choice. It is my favorite game and one of my family's favorite games. The combos and synergies of cards that you can put in the same row is always satisfying. Other choices that are on my low complexity/high depth list include Onitama and Carcassonne. In Onitama you lose only if you let the other person win, and in Carcassonne I have learned a strategy to position your meeples and connect your tiles in a way with other players tiles by adding a third piece between them, so you can "steal" the points. This was a great video just like almost all of your rest.
@@TheBrokenMeeple if you place your first settlement in a way so that it touches a few types of terrain then you are totally limited. That's bad play. If you play adjacent to only one (or none) and grab some special tiles early on then the game gets GREAT.
It works fine, but there's a variant in the rules for applying two player. To be honest it's not a player count I find myself playing often in most games.
I understand that you only considered games for this list that you personally enjoy. But if anyone were to create a somewhat objective list of this sort, there is no way Go (Baduk/Weiqi) would not be on the number one spot. I don't think it has ever been challenged as the boardgame with the most strategic depth and its rules can be taught to anyone in 10 to 15 minutes.
It was also a caveat that pure abstract games would not feature because by their very nature they all meet the definition so you might as well make a top ten abstract games list. Also putting games that I recommend personally does not make the list any less objective because no creator with a clue is going to suggest ten games they don't like.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Fair enough I guess, although the theme of many Euro games is so thin that the distinction between them and purely abstract games comes down to graphic design. And you might have taken the word “objective” here differently than intended. It was not meant in any way as a criticism of your selection. Complexity and depth are hard to quantify but in principle it should be possible, so I think there is some theoretical list ordered by the depth/complexity ratio. Of course that has nothing to do with which games anyone would recommend. The latter is by definition always subjective.
Wingspan really is too reliant on luck. I get making the comparison with Terraforming Mars because they are both card-based engine building games, but there is one thing that doesn’t make TM feel as much like a luck fest: drafting. TM with drafting is considerably better than TM without drafting. While Wingspan does reward skill, the game is still basically decided by if your opening hand synergizes with your goal cards and the end of round goals. Wingspan has no drafting variant like TM or even a simple mulligan rule to smooth out that glaring issue. However, I am glad to say Oceania does alleviate that design oversight by introducing ways to reset the bird feeder and bird bank.
You can easily house rule a mulligan. In fact I have done so several times. But also your game is not decided by your first hand, you can adapt. With TM I may have the plant Corp and then never receive any green cards wasting a crucial ability. Drafting won't eliminate luck you can still get hosed and it's three times longer to play then Wingspan.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Your example on TM, is actually exactly what happened to me when I played the game for the first time.
Some corporations allow to adapt more easily, like the one that has a lot of capital. A friend was playing that corporation and ended up throwing a meteor on me when things were going slightly better for me. So after my rocky start with not a lot of plant cards, I was completely out of the game when we had just passed the midway point of the game. Ended up in last place and at no point in the game I could have been in first or second position. 3rd maybe, if that meteorite wasn't thrown on me. But 1st and 2nd were far ahead.
It was a learning experience. Since, it was my first time playing it (and the others had played it 2 or 3 times at that point), I went for a corporation which gave me a clear direction to go in (plants). Because there's a lot of reading and I didn't really want to hold the game up because I wanted to read everything. Downside is, other corporations with more open decissions can adapt more easily to a setback.
Don't get me wrong, I like Terraforming Mars, but it has luck involved as well. You can mitigate it quite a bit. Thanks to drafting, choice of corporation, etc. But you're absolutely right that you can get screwed over if you're unlucky. In that game the only thing I could do was try to learn as much about the cards as possible. Basically reading as many as possible before passing them through.
never ever understood the appeal of Wingspan - if you want to look at pictures of birds buy a book about birds
@@skyblazeeterno Some like the appeal of a game set in 19th century industrial age, to them I could say, read a history book as that setting bores me to tears. To each their own.
It is a “design oversight” to make a decision about the balance of luck versus skill in your game design?
It did occur to you, did it not, that the designers know there is luck in the game? It does occur to you, does it not, that other people are also intelligent?
Not sure if you have given wingspan much of a chance. I play with a common group, and the same person almost always wins, a strong sign that the game is more than luck. No, it’s not proof. Yes, it’s only one example. Geewhiz, turns out other people can think too.
I personally measure the weight of a game by how fast and efficiently I can explain the rules and basic strategies to new players. That being said Concordia is a game that many people probably overlook as "too heavy" but all it takes to introduce it to new players is just explaining the effects of each of the 7 starting cards each player gets for about 10 minutes.
Yeah but actually doing well is a while other level and that is still 7 effects to explain and they aren't basic actions. Those weird Meeples, for example are a fiddly unintuitive aspect. You got scoring income for regions which is a separate thing. Plenty enough to overwhelm a new or light player. Assuming they don't fall asleep 😂
Finally someone giving whistle stop some praise, I have it in my collection but the getting it to the table is my own qualm. Great to see it on the list one of the main reasons i decided to watch the video. I skimmed through a bit and noticed the name and said nah it cant be, im glad i wasnt right.
Right on!
Agree with Whistle Stop, the rules are just a few paragraphs but the amount of shenanigans you can get up to and combo moves you can make is fantastic.
I feel bad I didn't return to it sooner! But expect it to hit the Top 100 next year at this rate!
I find these types of lists extremely helpful as I am introducing my husband to a hobby that I love. Thank you, Luke!
Wonderful list. I initially bought Wingspan to get my wife more into gaming after she fell in love w/ Viticulture EE. Wingspan at first was just plopping down random cards and hoping for a good score. However, once the combos started happening, the choices and various combos gained a whole lot of depth. I’ve ordered Rune Stones based upon your recommendation. The pictures of the board setup look very busy but it sounds like a great game. I found TheCrew for two players doesn’t work, even with the Jarvis AI.
Thanks for a very helpful review.
"I hate trains," as a Ticket to Ride is plastered all over your wall.
Can still hate trains as a concept. Also Ticket to Ride could literally be rethemed into anything else and the game wouldn't change. Replace trains with taxis or buses - problem solved. With train games I'm talking about the awful 18XX style for the most part.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Makes sense. I don't think I have played a train game beyond TTR, so I can't really talk. I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition. Nice list btw.
The scoring in Wingspan is not that easy. I question that pick. But here is a game to consider: Istanbul! :-). Coatl and Calico would also make good options. Thanks for the video.
I would question it since I don't feel it has much depth at all :/
Istanbul can fit, just not a massive fan. I don't find scoring in Wing hard at all, you just follow the pad and most things are simply "each is worth 1point"
There's definitely depth in this game though, I win more often then lose and believe me I don't have great luck generally! 😂 You can't auto pilot this.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Wingspan is a great game I like but have yet to master. I rarely score higher than 75. What I ment about scoring is that you do not feel the scoring during the gameplay. An egg is a point. A tucked card is a point. But those end of round bonuses are not concrete. I love the birds. I love the game mechanic. Light reserve on score. Overall, a great game that will please a lot of people.
Great video and list Luke. Enjoyed your comments 👍
Awesome, thank you!
Love Awkward Guests. The companion app makes it even better.
I'd add Roland Wright & villagers to the list
This is such a great video: subscribed!
Yay! Thank you!
@@TheBrokenMeeple Thank you for making awesome videos! And it's such a neat idea to feature other boardgame reviewers. I've subscribed to them as well. I'm really enjoying the rise of so many new voices, and discovering existing ones I did not really encounter before (like all those top quality German reviewers). Teehee, so many more top X lists to go through. 😁
I have said in the past and will say it again you are a channel that deserve to be bigger, I don't like you tastes specially on game time for games all the time but I love you content that is well put out and shows a lot of care and love for the hobby. And about your list I think is a great one my only complaint is the crew but not your selection it makes sense is just the prize it got so please keep doing great content
By the way, regarding your original list, it had Innovation. I absolutely LOVE Innovation, but it's such a pain for me to teach and players have a hard time navigating the complexity in their first two plays. It's especially bad, since unless you hold yourself back immensely, new player is not going to enjoy it since they won't understand everything you are doing.
And then there are the extra victory conditions.
Well it's not on the new list! 😉
Wow! Great list!
Glad you enjoyed it
Not a fan of trains? The Ticket to Ride boxes behind you speak a different story... ;)
Thanks for the TTR list by the way, bought Nordic countries as our first TTR because of it. 👍
Ticket to Ride could be anything though. In fact the mini sets have already used buses and taxis. Trains in themselves are boring but I'm more referring to the typical train game of companies and shares.
This list definitely has moderate depth, but for those going for even more depth, here's a few to consider. (More depth is not necessarily better, just a preference)
Going for ~15 minutes to teach
1. Bus
2. Age of Steam
3. The Estates
4. Hanimakoji
5. Roads & Boats
6. Castell
These aren't for everyone, they're pretty deep (except maybe Hanimakoji) and some will say dry, but they're easy to teach and learn and have more intense depth. Also, Go and Chess, but I really don't like those...
Han might have been on the old list. I wouldn't even go near anything made by Splotter, just don't enjoy a single game they make. And I'm not sure I'd consider Age of Steam or Roads and Boats to be low complexity either. Bus maybe.
In my personal list I would add Concordia. I just opened the package and was able to pick it up in about 10 minutes and teach it to my wife, and were new gamers. The simplicity is in that you have 1 action each turn (play a card!) and the complexity is in the combination of points doled by the card at the end of the game.
I have to enjoy the game though. 😁
@@TheBrokenMeeple Hahah that is a good standard to maintain :)
I feel that Arboretum belongs on such a list: super simple rules, yet there's a lot of complexity in it. On your turn you draw two cards, either blindly or from discard piles. Then you play a card and discard a card. And you have to create a tableau of cards where you'll have chains starting and ending with the same tree type, while keeping enough value in your hand to score that tree type. Decisions can be really painful for such simple gameplay.
I love On The Underground. I am chomping at the bit for the Paris/New York game.
Oh yes, that's taking forever!
Super list, I’d suggest Bus, the rules are basically a flyer, it all seems so simple, the. You play..... the tightest knife fight in a phone booth I have ever come across
Great video! I have a few new games to pick up..... and deliver.
Also, a lapel mic would make your videos even better!
I recently picked up a wireless mic for $40, the average cost of a single game :)
I find my shotgun mic is fine for main videos but I have considered a lapel mic for the tabletop stuff, problem is I've never found one I considered good quality or didn't pick up every shirt ruffle.
Calico fits this category pretty well, as does Tiny Towns or Quacks of Quedlinburg
Calico was a shortlist, but a lot of it is kind of push your luck. Quacks is all push your luck and I just find that mechanic isn't really one of depth. Tiny Towns I didn't find that enjoyable but I've only played the basic version of it.
Very interesting statement you made: In the Isle of Cats segment, you mentioned being "used to games" and that it made it easy for you to learn/teach one. Can you say more about that? I only recently got back into board games, and am a good reader generally, but rulebooks and even videos take me way longer than they should to grasp--even for some really simple games so that I'm kicking myself later wondering why it took so long! I keep wondering if there'll come a point where once I've learned a few of them I'll get faster at learning others, as if it's a skill one can develop. I desperately hope so...
Yeah it just comes with experience. I've played many forms of card and miniature games including RPG's all my life. Board Games have been in and out but the focus for the last 8 years. The more you play games, the more you get used to hearing certain rules over and over. Like someone can say to me "your manage your deck like most deck builders", I'll know already the gist of what I should be doing. Same for something like "worker placement".
It's not something that comes instantly. I even did my Glossary series to help people with terminology. Don't feel downhearted if something takes a while to learn, everything takes practice. It also depends what games you're trying to get back into, maybe scale down the complexity for now? I see many try to jump into a huge 2-3 hour Euro while barely knowing board games in general and it's just too overwhelming for them.
Great little two player game that's on my list and doesn't get enough attention: Crimson Company
I regret not having backed it.
@@PablowingUrMind They're working on the third expansion for it and you can already sign up to get notified. Just poke around the last KS update and you should find it.
@@gravyboatman awesome. Thanks!
Excellent, nice list.😃 I guess I will need to give a couple of them a try. Might be nice for my friends who do not regularly play. The Isle of Cats and Wingspan were already a great success with them 😁
I am pretty new to this board game hobby and love lists like these, specially when there are a few not so well know games on them. That chakra game looked beautiful!
A game I find very easy to learn but very tricky to play is Tiny Towns. Great fun and beautiful production!
Glad you like them!
Carcassonne and lost cities
Thank you for include a portuguese game. I love Viral 😀
Gave a few games on my wishlist a star after this episode, like Viral.
Knizia's Samurai has always been my go to for this niche.
I have played 6 out of the 10 that you mentioned, thanks
I am never letting anyone I play with to get that many blue cats! From playing it 3 times would add Calico.
Omg, Calico is so deceptive. The rules are easy, but when it comes time to decide what piece goes where, your brain fries.
Great to see awkward guests getting some love... such an awesome game!!! Plays solo very well too
Will we ever see a list of the Top 10 Games with High Complexity & Low Depth! 😛
Retitled "Bad Games" or "Bad Rulebooks" :P
Seasons
@@skyblazeeterno No way, Seasons is an awesome game. But wouldn't qualify for this list, it's got a bit of complexity to it.
Abstract strategy game always have low complexity and great depth. Just look at onitama, hive and santorini. It's very simple to teach not complex at all but man it's complex
"Despite the fact I hate trains" -A guy with five covers of Ticket to Ride on his wall 🤣
I'd much rather they were taxis or some other kind of transportation but the game doesn't feel like you're using trains really, it's just a connecting tool.
Hahahah..my thoughts exactly!
Ticket To Ride is essentially Rummy with a board
I still find it interesting you've now done two lists with honorable mentions and yet I don't recall a single Knizia title.
I don't like many of his games and the ones I do like wouldn't qualify for this list in terms of complexity. I've not played Through The Desert though.
How's Isle of cats with two players? Because I love me some polyomino games but most of the times I play them when I want to introduce players to boardgames or if I go to my family and need some easier games. I don't really pull them out when we play with two because with Barenpark for example it isn't that interesting with two. Where would you put Isle of Cats?
I find Baren just fine with two. This one works fine also because you have only one person to draft against therefore you gamble on seeing cards return to you.
Ooh, Wingspan is definitely not high depth! High variability definitely, but not a lot of depth. There's too much randomness of cards for it to have a lot of depth.
So does Terraforming Mars and yet people call that complex. Also I house-rule a mulligan for starting hand.
@@TheBrokenMeeple i hope they put mulligan as a mechanic in the game.
My 2nd game with it was a disaster, my goal was almost useless the entire game. The cards in the market doesnt combo with any of my cards and goals, to the point im just randomly drawing cards than getting a useless bird that is faceup, while my opponent is doing crazy combos very early in the game. Damnnn
I disagree, I mean you can house rule a mulligan fine but even with the card draw there are plenty of tactical choices and decisions to make with the card abilities and the timing of when you get food vs cards etc.
Also everyone is subject to the same card draw luck as each other. If wingspan can't count as high depth then I'm stating that Terra forming Mars has no depth because of the luck of card draw /draft in that, except that has repurcussions for a 3 hour game.
Curious what you think of Whistle Mountain. I love it.I know they are different but i would play that game any day over Whistle stop.
No UK release yet but it's high on wishlist! But yeah they look nothing alike other than they both have whistles.
Sadly nothing rocks my boat on that list. But interesting to hear your thoughts, Luke. Thanks.
Been wanting to purchase awkward guests for awhile... can’t find it available anywhere
Same lol, and I think uts like $100
No Knizia? Shocking...
I wanted fun games also I enjoy! 😁 Some of his small two player only games are fine but there is only so much in those even.
I would add Sub Terra to this list
Where's the depth? Or was that a pun? 😁
@@TheBrokenMeeple ah I see what you did there! IMO the depth comes from choosing a well rounded team from the pool of players (assuming you have less than the max player count), deciding on whether to split the party up or stay relatively together, trying to balance exploring versus reveal with the time deck, deciding if it is worth it to exert for that extra AP, etc.
I don’t remember the previous top ten so these may have been there:
Abyss: Conspiracy
Arboretum
Azul
Biblios
Fantastic Factories
Mandala (2p only though)
Annnd Too Many Bones of course
Lol there is no way TMB would make this list!
I considered Azul but there's only so much room for depth there. I'm not changing my style of play or tactics from game to game.
@@TheBrokenMeeple haha Too Many Rules?! TMB was a joke of course...but good point with Azul actually, hadn’t looked at it that way. Might explain why it hasn’t come off my shelf in quite a while
I'm having a hard time finding the part 1 video. Link pls?
Link is in the description now. Plus the link appears during the video and once in the end credits.
That really bothered me to see a Grassland only bird in the Forest Row on the Wingspan slide. I know it is just B roll, but grrr.
Ha ha, blame the photographer.........oh wait........
@@TheBrokenMeeple Thank you so much for replying to my comment. It may not be much, but it made my day. Being able to interact with other members of hobby board games gives me joy. I definitely agree with you on Wingspan as a choice. It is my favorite game and one of my family's favorite games. The combos and synergies of cards that you can put in the same row is always satisfying. Other choices that are on my low complexity/high depth list include Onitama and Carcassonne. In Onitama you lose only if you let the other person win, and in Carcassonne I have learned a strategy to position your meeples and connect your tiles in a way with other players tiles by adding a third piece between them, so you can "steal" the points. This was a great video just like almost all of your rest.
Concordia
Go.
Quirky Circuits
UFS
Onitama?
Pure abstract game which I excluded from the list.
The game you rate 1/10 - Kingdom Builder ;). A fantastic game.
I only win about 1/5 on BGA, but great game.
I question how much depth it has, but you're not the first to peg it! At least others will be aware of it! :-)
@@TheBrokenMeeple if you place your first settlement in a way so that it touches a few types of terrain then you are totally limited. That's bad play. If you play adjacent to only one (or none) and grab some special tiles early on then the game gets GREAT.
Rune Stones was so boring. We sold it after 5 plays.
Unfortunately, it really needs the expansions.
Had to laugh about whistle stop, trains and xxxx game mechanics next thing you will be bigging up barrage lol
Ha ha no chance!
@@TheBrokenMeeple 🤣
Would you get awkward guests for mostly 2 player?
Im wondering the same 🧐
It works fine, but there's a variant in the rules for applying two player. To be honest it's not a player count I find myself playing often in most games.
Gods Love Dinosaurs
Draftosaurus
New York Zoo
Cloud City
Horizons
Gunkimono
I understand that you only considered games for this list that you personally enjoy. But if anyone were to create a somewhat objective list of this sort, there is no way Go (Baduk/Weiqi) would not be on the number one spot. I don't think it has ever been challenged as the boardgame with the most strategic depth and its rules can be taught to anyone in 10 to 15 minutes.
It was also a caveat that pure abstract games would not feature because by their very nature they all meet the definition so you might as well make a top ten abstract games list.
Also putting games that I recommend personally does not make the list any less objective because no creator with a clue is going to suggest ten games they don't like.
@@TheBrokenMeeple Fair enough I guess, although the theme of many Euro games is so thin that the distinction between them and purely abstract games comes down to graphic design. And you might have taken the word “objective” here differently than intended. It was not meant in any way as a criticism of your selection. Complexity and depth are hard to quantify but in principle it should be possible, so I think there is some theoretical list ordered by the depth/complexity ratio. Of course that has nothing to do with which games anyone would recommend. The latter is by definition always subjective.
classic games like Go are kryptonite to modern gamers
You are suffering from saying "you know". If we did know, we dont need see your video.
Force of speech habit! 😁
The crew is a horrible horrible game , don't think there is any complexity in it at all. Sorry
"Top 10 Games with Low Complexity ... " !
I like card games (Bridge, ). The crew is fine.