I was prepared for Bardsung, knew it was a grind by the time it arrived. Well , with a few house rules. No initiative shuffling when no enemy are on the board and removing 2 to 3 explorations per chapter, it had turned out to be a fun game. I have no idea why they designed the campaign with so much repetition. I now will skip a few explorations and just give my self the rewards and draw 4 to 6 exploration cards are resolve them. Has really helped the game and kept it on my shelf. Unsure if I will sell.
That sounds like the best thing to do (and relatively easy to do), though it's disappointing the designers didn't realize it was too grindy during play testing. I wonder if there will be community written scenarios that build these house rules in.
Wife and I found Bardsung a big big grind... I wanna like it but it doesn't feel worth it. Will play some Bardhammer with it but otherwise the campaign is really grindy. Also thank you for saying how cumbersome the board is. We don't need spots for Fate tokens, Tools, campfires, etc AND some moral tracker that lacks weight. What Alex has set up on the table doesn't come close to the magnitude of how big of a table you need. The map alone is like 43x30inches alone (can't remember, been a while I measured it) and the game wants you to have so many of the parts nearby. You need like a banquet hall table to play this. When my wife and I got to the end of a long crawl, we were walking around the table to reach the minis... And wow the damage tokens by enemy minis start getting cluttered. Poor ergonomics.
Thanks for the honest review, although I picked up a bit of almost guilt there. I hope you feel you can always be free to say what you think about a game, regardless. I backed this all-in, but ultimately things change and when the game arrived I think it wasn’t for me anymore. Glad I managed to flip it pretty much immediately
Good review, I like the honesty and bravery that you can provide a balanced but ultimately negative review because it didn't float your boat. I chose Bardsung over MD2, Bardsung felt more D&D than MD2 (I'm looking for a D&D type campaign game for solo play) and MD2 seemed to be just too many boxes and plastic for me. Agree the board is stupidly large and probably unusable for many. I don't know why they didn't put the play parts that go around the outside on a separate side board to keep the size down. I don't use the board and use a token holder for the cards and bardsung tokens instead, reduces the table space requirements a fair bit. Still not made my mind up on bardsung tho, not far in but not blown away by it yet. I guess my temptation to sell is evident by me keeping the huge delivery box nearby... :)
Seems to be my consent with the company. Their games are always grindy or sub par. At least with my Kickstarter for dark souls house rules and the wave two content fixed/made the grind more interesting with mini bosses and summons. With this game it can't be modded because you would either cut story content or make it too easy to enjoy. It's also my fear with steamforged tackling a boardgame version of monster hunter. The one shots from the Kickstarter looked fun. But the game loop is built in the fun of the grind... Funnily enough all the good aspects of this game made me want to play my copy of too many bones, or middara.
The TTS demo during the campaign was enough for me. I couldn’t possibly see how they could stretch out content for gameplay based on rng without just making it a grind. Thanks for the honest review. I don’t feel bad I passed on this game... if only I was so restrained on so many others.
I like your review - and i do not disagree with some of what you say. However it is so easy to move through the campaign at a quicker pace the way the adventure book is designed. All you really need to do is skip a couple of nodes within a map and add the xp which is already listed on the page. This way you effectively speed the game up and concentrate on the nodes that contain narrative. With this simple fix you effectively remove a lot of grind and just get on levelling and enjoying quickly. I get the arguement that the design of the game has a flaw but to not play or sell when a solution is apparent seems a shame. All that said - is there actually a dungeon crawl thats good that doesnt involve grinding through maps anyway? I think this is one of the best entry level dungeon crawls and its so easy to set up any dungeon style you want as its all done via card decks so you can just switch cards in and out at will. Mechanically and content wise for me this beats Massive Darkness by a mile, i have played a number of chapters and its always been fun and not too long - we easily get two dungeon crawls done in one evening and boss encounters are actually different too. Its a great box for designing your own theme dungeon run to play through.
After a few plays with different heroes (2 hero plays) I find the grind level is directly tied to the heroes used. Those that can deliver 2 wounds speed up gameplay greatly, and I think its why some do not think its as grindy as others. Being able to 1-shot many of the monsters speeds up gameplay a great deal. If you play 2 hero and take Wyldshell and Dawnguard, get ready for some really slow and grueling fights. The 2 wound system the enemies have unfortunately mean the characters are not created equal from a grind point of view.
I'm playing through Bardsung with a friend currently and we are enjoying ourselves. The grind is real, but at least for us, it doesn't diminish the experience. Also, the Foreteller narration is excellent and adds a lot to the story bits.
I have 3 words for you: Shadows of Brimstone. That's the only dungeon crawler you ever need (if you have a lot of content for it). Then you don't need to back such games as Bardsung.. ;)
After playing a few games of Gloomhaven, I realized grindy campaign board games aren't very rewarding gameplay for me. Of course, I learned that after going all-in on Frosthaven.
I've been through a similar amount of game and don't mind the repetition. I think it's a fantastic, albeit light, dungeon crawler. Can't wait to get back to it (Middara is on the table now).
Same here, I thought there were enough minor changes through each chapter (new enemies appear, introduced narrative challenges, and different encounter types) that kept it interesting. Also the buying/finding lost treasure complements some of the slower XP gain in certain chapters. The only thing I'm not very keen on are the "find the hidden door" encounters since they can take forever and you can keep running into dead-ends and wandering monsters. I wish wandering monsters gave you money or something when you end up having to fight like 4 in a single encounter!
I totally understand your "I want to like it more than I do". I have so many games that are perfectly summed up with this sentence. Like Divinity Original Sin (to name one). I am i. The processo of getting Bardsung but I do plan o playing it solo and with some hosue rules to avoid too much grind. Here's to hoping I like it as much as you would like to like it 😉
I think your pretty right on, where felt it being pretty grindy once i got into chapter 4, to where I think were just going to start cutting out some of the dungeon grinds, to where maybe the ultimate setup would be more like 1 to 2 maps per chapter max.
Quick Question, is there any Dungeon Crawler that you have play that is fast, rewarding and not grindy? Also, you mentioned that Gloomhaven is better because although it's also grindy it has enough complexity and reward that make the slowness and grindyness ok. Does that mean if Bardsung is more difficult and every decision you make can lead to life and death you'll like it as much as gloomhaven? Finally, have you tried the fable adventure? It's a single scenario experience where you get all your progression immediately, you can create character with the given exp, distribute loot, basically built a complete and strong party and then go into the dungeon that can be completed in a few hours. This should satisfy you enough since it's not as grindy as the main campaign.
Well I think grind is kind of expected when you play a dungeon crawler. I guess it comes down to the variability of enemies and also other things you can do besides fighting. In this Shadows of Brimstone is absolutely unparalleled. If you have enough content for it the variability of monsters is enormous and as for the fighting, there could be missions where you meet very few enemies or even just one. Also, it's kind of choose you own adventure, you don't have to go through an enormously long campaign (although you can play fan made campaigns)..
Massive Darkness 2. One shot scenarios, super fast paced rewarding gameplay and level up system. Each class plays completely different and a lot of fun to try different classes each play-through. You constantly get new equipment that makes your class and rolls more powerful. Otherwise you can never go wrong with the HeroQuest 2021 re-release and all expansions. Simple, timeless fun.
@@dav1dgear Massive Darkness 2 Hellscape gameplay was built around it being one shot scenarios. Big difference compared to games designed to be campaign games with the option to do oneshots. Massive Darkness 2 does have a campaign expansion, but it takes away what makes the base game great, because the game was not originally designed to be a campaign game. So, it makes progression MUCH slower, grindy, and not as exciting. Maybe the issue is that it's hard to make a campaign board game that does not feel grindy, slow and keeps you engaged for a long time. I feel long campaign games translate better to videogames format. To me the board games I enjoy more are the ones that are easy to learn, fast paced, and not too complex. I have been playing Tales of The Red Dragon Inn recently and have been extremely surprised with it. It's a story driven campaign game, fun story, very well written, and gameplay is fast and easy to learn yet strategic enough when it needs to be. Super easy setup. I recommend checking it out!
Certainly one of the better board game reviewers Alex with an honest review like this. People in international regions where conversion rates are rubbish need to part with a LOT of money to 'try' these games, and honest reviews help filter the 'worthy must haves' from the rest. I am getting sick of seeing other people disclaimer paid reviews at the start and then watch them only struggle to try and prattle through 10 minutes of what slim-picking positives they could find, never touching on potential pain points Well done mate.
House rules might correct the GRIND that Bardsung requires, but the changes might be real surgery. (1) Find a way to radically change combat so that players will have similar chances as they do now, but each combat will be BRIEF; (2) Shorten the board traversals that are needed to get to the next one. What do you think? - toby
I feel this about most dungeon crawlers. Kingdom Death, Middara, Massive Darkness, Swords & Sorcery, Gloomhaven... even Dark Souls. There is always one thing they do amazingly well and a couple they don't, so it really is pick your poison.
awesome! I agree with your problems with this game. for any one reading this comment, I absolutely love this game. although gloomhaven does most things better....I actually like this game more. even though the table space is crazy, I think its easier to table. I also love the boss fights in this game a lot.
Xp gain is a grind. I learned I was gaining xp incorrectly, which was good, but having to clear a dungeon to gain a single point of experience is a chore. There isn't a good thematic reason why going through DOZENS of enemies in one dungeon gives nothing but money, which also brings another issue: money isn't very helpful. I am gonna have to houserule some things in it.
My son and I went through Gloomhaven and each time we wanted money we would replay a level that gave out a lot of money. After we did this for about 4 times with different characters, we finally said, let’s just average the gold and experience we got, and next time we need money, we will skip actually playing it. Take the average money and experience and move on to the next scenario. So I imagine after playing the game normally a few times, you can determine the average state you are in, gold earned , wounds taken and treasures gained and just take that and skip to the boss fight. Instead of playing similar scenarios multiple times. Sounds like it might work, but will have to play normal for a couple of chapters to build up some data and statistics. I’m just starting to play. So hope it works for me!
I absolutely agree with your review. It seems we both reached the same conclusion around the 15 hr mark. After two boss fights. I also feel disappointment I won’t be around to see the story develop. The grind and sameness of the dungeons…. Finally when I turned the page on a new chapter and saw that I would have to grind my way to a dungeon exit at least 4-6 times…. I just couldn’t push on
Is there any house rules that you or Alex can think of that might improve the experience. Picked this up but likely not going to be able to play for a while, so curious whether there is anything that can be done to improve the experience.
@@PoorlyTimedNedStark the issue is that in each chapter there are a bunch of identical dungeons you can see you will have to get through to advance the story. Short of just skipping ( essentially cheating) most of them I don’t see it.
@@Zilong09 that’s a one-shot dungeon crawl variant. It’s not a truncation of the campaign’s rate of progression, which is the primary problem with the game.
I think this has to do with you being a content creator, but I feel your too time constrained to enjoy games like this. It Just seemed like you really enjoyed the game, but because you have other things you need to do, you just don't think its worth it to go through the game completely . If you had no deadline for your channel, and no obligations would you be willing to play a game like this all the way through? The problem for you was the Crawl part of the Dungeon Crawl. Honestly didn't get this game, but when you stated your problems with it, which were mainly that you had to spend 3-4 hours to even get though a game session, you made me want to get this game. My recent problem with Dungeon Crawl games, is their really Dungeon Skirmish games, their just too short to give you the satisfaction of even going through them. My first game I ever played that I loved was Descent 1st edition, and I haven't had that real Dungeon Crawl experience since then. Even Gloomhaven, while expansive as a whole, the Dungeons inside are really short. I have been craving that really long Dungeon Crawl game, and honestly I am hoping once I get Chronicles of Drunagor, I get that experience I want. Just Interesting how we differ on so much but I still love your channel, and appreciate your honest feelings on games.
Hey, love your video's! I do want to say again that the auto-focus (or whatever it is) is very annoying. In this video you can really notice it when looking at the mini's in the main camera view. I have no idea what causes this but it would be great if you can resolve it! Thanks for all your hard work! Cheers, Alex (yes that's my name too :)
Bardsung is definitely one that I still want to try, but I am not too shocked with the grind. That is why I didn't back it, watching some of the TTS play throughs, it seemed like a lot of grind of the main dungeon crawl. If this one every shows at my FLGS used, well, I'd definitely grab it then.
It sounds like if the game was house rules and sandboxes it could be truly outstanding. For example, I don’t play Bloodborne campaign *at all* but I love playing Chalice dungeon on its own with house rules and mixed monsters
A customer of mine has me painting up his minis for this game. I asked him how many of each shade he needed and he replied, "I don't really know. Just go with your own ideas." So, I went looking for reviews and game play. Wow. I feel you on your points about the grind and footprint. I have a 2'x4' play space so a lot of games wont fit and that space is at a premium with other activities, such as the above mentioned miniatures painting, so I can't invest more than a few hours for a 'campaign'. I'm not so interested in character progression as I am in exploration and combat, but to go through that many hours for a single level up? Might as well play Elder Scrolls Online. Well, nice review.
This is one that just looks sooo amazing. The production quality drew me in fast and hard, and I kept regretting not pledging. But I can’t help but watch the content and feel like I made the right call even though I still regret not backing the campaign! They are very contradictory and confusing thoughts…
This video is so on point with how I feel about Bardsung. I wanted to love this game, I really did but there's just so many things stopping me from fully enjoying it. It's a real shame as from day one of the campaign I was excited for this game having been a huge fan of Ian Livingstone in my younger years and his Fighting Fantasy books. I can't bring myself to part with it just yet as I keep telling myself il give it one more chance but I think it's inevitable it'll leave my collection especially when I have AltarQuest to scratch any dungeon crawler itch I may have given I find it so much easier to table and play for me.
The problem with Bardsung is that the adventure book has 180 pages, and only 2 of those are dedicated to illustrating the types of quests present for the sessions. The remainder illustrates schemes composed of nodes where each node is simply the same type of encounter that follows one another incessantly, interspersed with narrative elements that are not even so engaging. Most of the sessions are all the same, i.e. go north and exit the perimeter to find the ladder and as the review points out, the campaign seems to have been expanded three times. To further undermine the experience is the fact that the monsters are always the same for long sessions, some appear only following certain narrative lines. First you find the hobgoblins, then if you follow a narrative line you meet the zombie hobgoblins, who have nothing particular and use the same miniatures as the common ones. There are tons of miniatures and the campaign always uses the same ones, and the wandering monsters are always the same again. I honestly can't understand how STG could have made a potentially so good game fail this way. They seem to have only been interested in the narrative system of event cards, as if they had extricated themselves into their own world, without realizing that the campaign on the practical side did not have a mission system worthy of the name and would become too repetitive too soon. Personally it is not a problem for me to redo the campaign in part, inventing new kinds of sessions, expanding the bestiary, increasing difficulty and variety, filling the nodes with content that they do not have but you cannot ask all buyers to do it same I fear.
Some chapters are definitely more grindy than others. Which can feel like a slog sometimes. I really enjoyed the Forteller narration and the boss battles, plus the characters feel very different and have some great upgrade paths. Plus setting up and ‘saving’ progress is very easy. Overall I really like it but the grind holds it back from being truly great in my eyes
3 chapters were enough for me. Kept waiting to fight something else other that brigands, brutes and reavers, kept waiting for a cool gameplay twist but none came. I enjoyed the core loop and I love the characters (especially the Fables heroes) but ultimately couldn’t get myself to play more. There is so very little variation to each session that it just felt tedious and unfun. Sold it a week ago.
Ty for the insight😊 follow question. Would you prefer Drunagor over e.g. decent legends of the dark or summerlair games like it? Maybe that is a good play this not that🤓
Really good review, Bardsung definetly gets too grindy, especially at later chapters I'm finding, but for me I do like everything else! I plan to finish this playthrough 'honestly' and then with the next playthrough skip some encounters by drawing X aspect cards - should cover story content and reduce grind! Also drop to 3 characters from 5, as the tiles get crazy crowded 😂
sounds like not really, based on the review. it's not like an MMO where you're killing respawning baddies or anything; "Grind" in this case is about the repetitive nature of the dungeon crawling and how far you have to go to feel like the experience is advancing; maybe having half the dungeon crawls in each chapter "fast forward" until a decision point and just assume the players win every encounter would be the kind of house rule that would help. too much content that feels ultimately like filler in the context of the overall experience is the issue, it sounds like.
The issue is that each chapter has too many nodes which have to be played to get through. So you’ll be doing almost the exact same thing for 4-8 hours depending on the chapter (including fighting the same 4 monsters).
I have a lot of campaign dungeon crawls, but after this Kickstarter funded, I regretted it. I couldn't quite put my finger on why. Since receiving it, I have laid it all out, but not played it. Probably because of the table space, I have a 4' x 6' games table and the board plus characters plus other components is obnoxious large even on this table. It is just too hard to table physically
I've spent some money on these big games, and find them never getting played. Mainly the biggest problem, is this needs to be a group effort in learning game play. This can't be where one person learns and teaches the game. everyone needs to help get through the instructions to make it worth it.
Aside from not having much faith in the publisher I passed on this for the same reason as a lot of fantasy games. It just didn’t sell me on the story/world. Games like Middara and Tanares sold me without a bunch of spoilers so it can be done.
The rulebook was one of the bad things for me, being first contact with the game via the tutorials, I felt that it was leaving too much stuff not explained which led to constant doubts during the tutorials. When I finished them I hoped I had not done the tutorials and had access from the start to the complete rules. For me that idea of tutorials seemed ok before doing it but it was in fact a disaster of a first contact.
I played this game the weekend before last and though it was enjoyable my feelings mirrored yours greatly. We got to the Outlast chapter before calling it for the day. It was very unforgiving, especially when you get overwhelmed by the brutes.
That is probably the biggest table hog I've seen in a while, and I just played 7th Continent after playing Sleeping Gods :D The materials look good, but I immediately see "steamforged game" as a concern by the material shown before you even describe it. I feel that it is a bit weird too. You have a mechanic (the deck) for random dungeon construction AND a dungeon book, which seems pretty thick too. This clashes with what I feel was one of the weakest parts of all previously played Steamforged games, the complete lack of level design. I feel that they tend to go for "a lot of fights in a lot of encounters and maps" rather than *designing* encounters. Level design is absent. This was extremely visible in dark souls (where everything was random, and regular enemies had no chance to really feel distinct. Only one boss even had a really special map and thus got to be the only really different boss). Which brings me back here. If they have a scenario book which you even have to review a lot...why have random cards too? Why not design interesting dungeons and enemy patterns? This seems to really be part of Steamforged's Style, and it really makes things feel interchangeable and not as interesting to me. TO me at least, designed dungeons almost always feel less "grindy" and more interesting. RNG just never comes up with really interesing challenges.
I think you were very kind in this review. I was a first day backer and definitely wanted to love this but the grind is only a small part of the negatives for me : terrible rule book, awful tokens, unbalanced characters, actual movement rules that are totally vague. The miniatures are pretty good but you could have done it with standees but I feel this was a giant set of miniatures with a rushed game attached.
I think almost all positive reviews and BGG ratings are from people who try to justify big ammount of money drowned into Bardsung 😀. Even they see big problems with game, they still try to defend it . But I see it that someone can still enjoying Bardsung 😁 Honestly from what I've seen, read and heard about Bardsung this game deserved much lower average score 6-7/10 maybe at best. 8/10 is too much high score for game like this. That's why I am ignoring BGG community ratings on boardgames :P it means nothing for me ;).
This was such a great review. I can hear the disappointment in your voice that this is a game that you're going to leave behind. I think it likely wouldn't work for me either. If I had all the time in the world then maybe, but that is sadly not the case. Thank you again for such a thoughtful review.
Based on early reviews, I sold my copy without playing. The big box took so much space. I am not really looking an entry level dungeon crawler. I might have liked this on some level if trying to tackle the rulebook. People saying the game is repetitive and that didn’t sound good. Sounds like shorter campaign would be better. And the board… My game table does not fit a board that size.
One more issue, that this game has is positive feedback - first campaign I played started bad and it went only worse and worse and in the end it was almost impossible to finish the play. Restarted campaign and the second time were more lucky with first few leves and then it started to be more and more easy, with last games having no difficulty at all.
Finally a not positive review. I disagree about the game, but I'm big fan of dungeon crawlers (and I own a huge table) in general so I don't mind most of your complaints. It's not the best experience from these types of games, but pretty solid nonetheless (and better than any other Steamforged games I have seen, especially comparing to those IP-related, maybe with an exception of Resident Evil titles).
Is it only me? A lot of those games don't offer anything unique or new, And dice rolling alone is pushing me away, come on! 2022 and we still roll dices way too many times.... well, another of the same, don't you think?
So you're playing solo so there's no reason to role-play and no one depending on your dice rolls and grinding it out and not switching characters to keep things interesting. You could try some of the one shots where you start with leveled chars too. I think you discovered how to play this game and not have fun and aren't really trying to have fun with it. Of course it's not fun and boring for someone with your experience with in depth strategy games and complex euros. This is like playing a competitive area control game solo by playing three factions and then saying it lacks strategic depth cause you always know what your opponent is going to do. Only someone new to gaming could have fun playing this solo I think. Also you made it sound like it's one exp per dungeon so 4 hours plus before you can do anything but there are dungeon levels that award multiple exp. The strategy you choose can reduce the grind and the play time as well. Will that be the best strategy to actually complete? Who knows... But I actually enjoy the dread and risk and time it takes to do a dungeon. It makes it feel like an adventure but that can also feel like work if you're not doing it in a way you enjoy the strategy, discussion, dice rolls, and role playing. On top of it the minis are great and def want to paint them. I think this game is easily a 4-5 rating if: 1. A introductory to role playing is wanted and enjoyable 2. A D&D light dice roll feel 3. Can manage the grind in a way to keep it fun with breaks from the game, swapping characters, and using strategy (etc.) 4. Don't mind the game will probably take years to get through. 5. Have a large dedicated play space. 6. You paint minis PS Some things scale 4 vs 5 and some don't. I chose 5 for my 2 player game cause I just wanted more characters
I don't get the name though. As a non-native English speaker, I have to ask if it 's playing with words, using incorrect conjugation on the word 'Birdsong'? It sounds like dad humor to my dad ears, but it doesn't feel like the name it's meant as a joke?
I recently bought a retail copy of bardsung, but i was kinda put off by the mistakes in the box wich weirdly no youtuber has commented on it yet or the kickstarter did not have these problems? There are 38 Boss Initiative cards (rule book says 37), 17 Misc Boss cards (rule book says 18), and 66 Enemy Profile cards (rule book says 65) and There are 5 N004 cards (different possession creatures named on each) ,There are 3 cards labelled B128 instead of B128, B129 and B130. for a 200 dollar game this is ,for me at least, unacceptable , can any of you confirm these mistakes in their box?
@@JevousGaming thx for answering , where have you found that it is not a mistake, and like lucky 666 has said, in his kickstarter version is everything ok
Minis are fragile (2x already have broken for me as far as I know).. Setup is “quick” but all those cards, event cards it takes a lot of time and is fiddly. One encounter takes far too long, far too long for me, because it gets repetetive and booring.. Pluses, interesting initiative track, a lot of variabilit, like really a lot of content there. At the end of the day it is not for me, as I am not a fan of dungeon cralwers in general and I kinda thought this could be accesible enough for me to start liking them. Frosthaven will have the second chance for dungeon crawlers for me 😀
In the past you have admitted that narrative campaign games are not your thing, so i wonder why you continue talking about them. I know that you try to give us your honest opinion, but even so it is the opinion of someone that doesn’t like this kind of games. Can you tell me how many campaign games have you finished? I want to say that i’m not defending Bardsung… i haven’t played it and i didn’t back it, just because it’s too light for me. On the other hand let me say that i enjoy your content, exept when you try to talk objectively about something you dislike. 😅
Gloomhaven’s scenarios are varied enough and the challenge is balanced enough that each session felt at least somewhat unique. This is literally the exact same thing, over and over again.
This sounds pretty good to me. Getting skills slowly, lots of grinding. However, I don't have any faith in the company that made it. They botched Dark Souls board game, tabletop RPG, maybe the card game too? Hard to justify sinking money into their games when they just botch a game and abandon it yet keep selling it anyway.
I couldn't disagree more and its unfortunate that you influence people to not play the game. I think people need to think of this not as a board game, because it isn't, but as a replacement for D&D for those that don't have time for everything that goes into a D&D adventure. A board game is something you can complete with your friends over an evening, day, or weekend. This game is a commitment, just like D&D. Go in with that mindset and you'll have a great time. And of course playing by yourself is nothing but grind. What did you think it was going to be?
So are you getting rid of this now because it’s a new game and easier to sell with it being so new and shiny rather than going through everything first and then sell it? Game looks like a commitment but a good commitment if you have time.
This sounds more of a roguelike boardgame. A genre which is still very different then your cookie cutter WHQ template (but very popular in video games). Thank you for the review/first impression! I am now looking forward to my play of this!
Yeah, was looking forward to this one and we played it once. Then i looked at the campaign book to see what would be next and it looked like we'd have to play almost the same scenario again. Same enemies, no hero advancement, etc. I was hoping the pace would pick up later on, but you're only confirming what i've feared. Back to Drunagor!
Listened to the review a couple times now because of how bizarre a taste this game has left me with. It's so true how badly paced it is. You seriously get 1 exp for finishing one of those "nodes" in a chapter, or something to that matter. That can be hours of play especially if like me it takes so long to configure the set up so your second player doesn't want to pull their hair out. Of that node there can be four or even ten in a chapter.. I think Alex is being a tad too kind to it with the 3.5/5, because like him I am very enamored by the characters and the potential but the design of the game is intended to be unbelievably drawn out to the point of ennui. that 1 exp mentioned above? is 1 of 3 or more exp to get your Skill, or action or passive to the next level. For some that is barely any progression. A node with so many encounters needs to reward you with way more. Gold feels useless. It just fuels the grind because it is used solely to purchase means to crawl longer (i.e. campfires to save you progress in a node and tools to solve certain encounters). The Echo mechanic is actually really fun and the vast characters and character mechanics are so exciting to try (except for the centaur. Holy shit is he bad). The Hex warrior? she literally does damage based on the marching order. That's pretty neat! Did we mention you can also roleplay as Animal Adventure dogs/cats from SFG? yes, there is skin overs for the base characters. You can be a dog mage obliterating a Cave Shark! Alas those good points don't carry the game. It's just too long and so much ruined potential. You fight and fight with pennies as the reward. You have to go through so much set up! 2-2.5 out of 5 is a generous enough rating I say. I'm sad. It's pretty. It will collect dust unless I feel up to Bardhammer. Cheers to you Alex for giving this game so much time. After 15 hours, I did not care to be bardsung...
@@Unit17 That actually is what turned me off of the game. I loved it for a while but eventually I realized I prefer dice chucking. I'm tired of every damn board game being a puzzle.
I find the use of the word 'grind' to be over-used in reviews. I get increasingly frustrated by viewers of such reviews who see it as the easy takeaway for them review. They then repeat this lazy soundbite, yet with no understanding at all. All of a sudden a game is known of as 'the grindy game' by people who have never played it. Remember that one gamer's grind, might be another's 'core gameplay' or even 'highlight'. For them there is no 'grind' and they'll hear that word as being dismissive of what they love, because that word may already carry a deeper intimation from prior usage. Let's say they loved Tainted Grail and were frustrated about their favourite game being a 'grind'. Now hearing that word again for Bardsung may reignite that frustration. So don't review differently, but beware of leaning on a word like 'grind' too much. It could end up being problematic to your viewers, seeing it as a shallow dismissal of their enjoyment.
But if the gameplay is a grind, then it’s a grind. However if you are into games that require lots of time to produce little results and need to have more sessions to progress in that game, then this is the game for you. It’s not a lazy soundbite, but rather an accurate term to be used to help people understand what kind of game you are getting into. One could argue that a game that is labeled as a grind makes it more appealing to a certain group of people. Would you prefer that he uses a term like slogfest, monotonously repetitive, or too much work for too little reward? I can’t think of a better term to use.
Yeah, he’s describing it as a grind because that’s exactly what it felt like to him. He did say it might not be a grind for others. Beware of telling a reviewer they’re lazy or taking the easy way out or going for sound bites just because you don’t agree with them.
A reviewer should not have to inaccurately describe their playing experience just because using the word "grind" might offend the delicate feelings of a commenter. The real takeaway here is that perhaps you shouldn't use reviews as validation for your purchasing decisions. If you're this angry that people didn't like a game you liked, you're not understanding what reviews are for. The game is a grind in its current form for man people, and as such you'll correctly encounter the word in reviews. That's the nature of grindy games.
@@fy8798 FWIW I very much don't use reviews for validation, and you've incorrectly interpreted that. I'm certainly not at all angry, so again, please don't assume that. *ALL* I am saying, is not to overuse a single word that is already starting to carry baggage. I like Alex's recognition that others may have differing views, and for me that sets him aside from the stridency of (say) NPI or SUSD. That subtlety and balance can be lost though, through over-reliance on a single word. It's an altogether different setting (and I'm not likening the two), but the word 'woke' gives an example of how overusing a single word, starts to build baggage from prior use. People hear that word and assume it fits their prior experience. That word is now one I won't use, as it's become an indicator to which trench someone argues from, and I don't believe in trenchant views. So to reiterate, all I'm saying is to avoid overusing the word 'grind', as it will distract the viewer's attention from the more nuanced comments that are where Alex shines. I hope that clarifies.
I was prepared for Bardsung, knew it was a grind by the time it arrived. Well , with a few house rules. No initiative shuffling when no enemy are on the board and removing 2 to 3 explorations per chapter, it had turned out to be a fun game. I have no idea why they designed the campaign with so much repetition. I now will skip a few explorations and just give my self the rewards and draw 4 to 6 exploration cards are resolve them. Has really helped the game and kept it on my shelf. Unsure if I will sell.
That sounds like the best thing to do (and relatively easy to do), though it's disappointing the designers didn't realize it was too grindy during play testing.
I wonder if there will be community written scenarios that build these house rules in.
Wife and I found Bardsung a big big grind... I wanna like it but it doesn't feel worth it. Will play some Bardhammer with it but otherwise the campaign is really grindy. Also thank you for saying how cumbersome the board is. We don't need spots for Fate tokens, Tools, campfires, etc AND some moral tracker that lacks weight. What Alex has set up on the table doesn't come close to the magnitude of how big of a table you need. The map alone is like 43x30inches alone (can't remember, been a while I measured it) and the game wants you to have so many of the parts nearby. You need like a banquet hall table to play this. When my wife and I got to the end of a long crawl, we were walking around the table to reach the minis... And wow the damage tokens by enemy minis start getting cluttered. Poor ergonomics.
Bardhammer?
@@JM32JM32 User made mode/variant on BGG
Oh man, you had me laughing with "you need like a banquet hall table to play this". Thank you for that, that was funny.
Thanks for the honest review, although I picked up a bit of almost guilt there. I hope you feel you can always be free to say what you think about a game, regardless. I backed this all-in, but ultimately things change and when the game arrived I think it wasn’t for me anymore. Glad I managed to flip it pretty much immediately
Oh I always feel bad when a game isn't "amazing" but practically speaking they aren't all amazing.
This is why I like Massive Darkness 2. Fun dungeon crawling in 2-ish hours and then you’re done.
Exactly the same reason I bought it and spent a bit extra on the KS exlusives. One off, fast game without being too complex.
70$ on sale rn. Might pick it up for the minis
It's likely worth it at that price!
Good review, I like the honesty and bravery that you can provide a balanced but ultimately negative review because it didn't float your boat. I chose Bardsung over MD2, Bardsung felt more D&D than MD2 (I'm looking for a D&D type campaign game for solo play) and MD2 seemed to be just too many boxes and plastic for me. Agree the board is stupidly large and probably unusable for many. I don't know why they didn't put the play parts that go around the outside on a separate side board to keep the size down. I don't use the board and use a token holder for the cards and bardsung tokens instead, reduces the table space requirements a fair bit. Still not made my mind up on bardsung tho, not far in but not blown away by it yet. I guess my temptation to sell is evident by me keeping the huge delivery box nearby... :)
My advice, James is to keep that box handy…….
Seems to be my consent with the company. Their games are always grindy or sub par. At least with my Kickstarter for dark souls house rules and the wave two content fixed/made the grind more interesting with mini bosses and summons. With this game it can't be modded because you would either cut story content or make it too easy to enjoy. It's also my fear with steamforged tackling a boardgame version of monster hunter. The one shots from the Kickstarter looked fun. But the game loop is built in the fun of the grind...
Funnily enough all the good aspects of this game made me want to play my copy of too many bones, or middara.
Guildball was their only good game and they cancelled it.
@@anab0lic it would also seem that resident evil is another outlier
Great review Alex, I was considering this game for a while but now I need to consider the space and setup time before I decided to pull the trigger.
The TTS demo during the campaign was enough for me. I couldn’t possibly see how they could stretch out content for gameplay based on rng without just making it a grind. Thanks for the honest review. I don’t feel bad I passed on this game... if only I was so restrained on so many others.
Good review. I'm just getting into Bardsung, but so far, my experience mirrors yours.
I like your review - and i do not disagree with some of what you say. However it is so easy to move through the campaign at a quicker pace the way the adventure book is designed. All you really need to do is skip a couple of nodes within a map and add the xp which is already listed on the page. This way you effectively speed the game up and concentrate on the nodes that contain narrative. With this simple fix you effectively remove a lot of grind and just get on levelling and enjoying quickly. I get the arguement that the design of the game has a flaw but to not play or sell when a solution is apparent seems a shame. All that said - is there actually a dungeon crawl thats good that doesnt involve grinding through maps anyway? I think this is one of the best entry level dungeon crawls and its so easy to set up any dungeon style you want as its all done via card decks so you can just switch cards in and out at will. Mechanically and content wise for me this beats Massive Darkness by a mile, i have played a number of chapters and its always been fun and not too long - we easily get two dungeon crawls done in one evening and boss encounters are actually different too. Its a great box for designing your own theme dungeon run to play through.
I would love to know how this compares to Dungeon Universalis
After a few plays with different heroes (2 hero plays) I find the grind level is directly tied to the heroes used. Those that can deliver 2 wounds speed up gameplay greatly, and I think its why some do not think its as grindy as others. Being able to 1-shot many of the monsters speeds up gameplay a great deal. If you play 2 hero and take Wyldshell and Dawnguard, get ready for some really slow and grueling fights. The 2 wound system the enemies have unfortunately mean the characters are not created equal from a grind point of view.
Can you house rule the game to improve it?
I'm playing through Bardsung with a friend currently and we are enjoying ourselves. The grind is real, but at least for us, it doesn't diminish the experience. Also, the Foreteller narration is excellent and adds a lot to the story bits.
I'm glad you're enjoying it :)
Curious to know how this turned out for you? Finished the campaign?
I have 3 words for you: Shadows of Brimstone. That's the only dungeon crawler you ever need (if you have a lot of content for it). Then you don't need to back such games as Bardsung.. ;)
I have a huge stack of SOB content. Its a lifetime worth of game.
After playing a few games of Gloomhaven, I realized grindy campaign board games aren't very rewarding gameplay for me. Of course, I learned that after going all-in on Frosthaven.
I've been through a similar amount of game and don't mind the repetition. I think it's a fantastic, albeit light, dungeon crawler. Can't wait to get back to it (Middara is on the table now).
Same here, I thought there were enough minor changes through each chapter (new enemies appear, introduced narrative challenges, and different encounter types) that kept it interesting. Also the buying/finding lost treasure complements some of the slower XP gain in certain chapters. The only thing I'm not very keen on are the "find the hidden door" encounters since they can take forever and you can keep running into dead-ends and wandering monsters. I wish wandering monsters gave you money or something when you end up having to fight like 4 in a single encounter!
It looks like the sort of game where you could easily do house rules to remove the grind.
I totally understand your "I want to like it more than I do". I have so many games that are perfectly summed up with this sentence. Like Divinity Original Sin (to name one). I am i. The processo of getting Bardsung but I do plan o playing it solo and with some hosue rules to avoid too much grind. Here's to hoping I like it as much as you would like to like it 😉
You-"...in the dark of the night...", Me-has Anastasia music running through head for rest of the day.
I think your pretty right on, where felt it being pretty grindy once i got into chapter 4, to where I think were just going to start cutting out some of the dungeon grinds, to where maybe the ultimate setup would be more like 1 to 2 maps per chapter max.
Quick Question, is there any Dungeon Crawler that you have play that is fast, rewarding and not grindy?
Also, you mentioned that Gloomhaven is better because although it's also grindy it has enough complexity and reward that make the slowness and grindyness ok. Does that mean if Bardsung is more difficult and every decision you make can lead to life and death you'll like it as much as gloomhaven?
Finally, have you tried the fable adventure? It's a single scenario experience where you get all your progression immediately, you can create character with the given exp, distribute loot, basically built a complete and strong party and then go into the dungeon that can be completed in a few hours. This should satisfy you enough since it's not as grindy as the main campaign.
Well I think grind is kind of expected when you play a dungeon crawler. I guess it comes down to the variability of enemies and also other things you can do besides fighting. In this Shadows of Brimstone is absolutely unparalleled. If you have enough content for it the variability of monsters is enormous and as for the fighting, there could be missions where you meet very few enemies or even just one. Also, it's kind of choose you own adventure, you don't have to go through an enormously long campaign (although you can play fan made campaigns)..
Massive Darkness 2. One shot scenarios, super fast paced rewarding gameplay and level up system. Each class plays completely different and a lot of fun to try different classes each play-through. You constantly get new equipment that makes your class and rolls more powerful.
Otherwise you can never go wrong with the HeroQuest 2021 re-release and all expansions. Simple, timeless fun.
@@Laius-ns5yu bardsung also has one shot scenario
@@dav1dgear Massive Darkness 2 Hellscape gameplay was built around it being one shot scenarios. Big difference compared to games designed to be campaign games with the option to do oneshots.
Massive Darkness 2 does have a campaign expansion, but it takes away what makes the base game great, because the game was not originally designed to be a campaign game. So, it makes progression MUCH slower, grindy, and not as exciting.
Maybe the issue is that it's hard to make a campaign board game that does not feel grindy, slow and keeps you engaged for a long time. I feel long campaign games translate better to videogames format. To me the board games I enjoy more are the ones that are easy to learn, fast paced, and not too complex.
I have been playing Tales of The Red Dragon Inn recently and have been extremely surprised with it. It's a story driven campaign game, fun story, very well written, and gameplay is fast and easy to learn yet strategic enough when it needs to be. Super easy setup. I recommend checking it out!
Certainly one of the better board game reviewers Alex with an honest review like this. People in international regions where conversion rates are rubbish need to part with a LOT of money to 'try' these games, and honest reviews help filter the 'worthy must haves' from the rest. I am getting sick of seeing other people disclaimer paid reviews at the start and then watch them only struggle to try and prattle through 10 minutes of what slim-picking positives they could find, never touching on potential pain points
Well done mate.
House rules might correct the GRIND that Bardsung requires, but the changes might be real surgery. (1) Find a way to radically change combat so that players will have similar chances as they do now, but each combat will be BRIEF; (2) Shorten the board traversals that are needed to get to the next one. What do you think? - toby
I feel this about most dungeon crawlers. Kingdom Death, Middara, Massive Darkness, Swords & Sorcery, Gloomhaven... even Dark Souls. There is always one thing they do amazingly well and a couple they don't, so it really is pick your poison.
awesome! I agree with your problems with this game. for any one reading this comment, I absolutely love this game. although gloomhaven does most things better....I actually like this game more. even though the table space is crazy, I think its easier to table. I also love the boss fights in this game a lot.
Xp gain is a grind. I learned I was gaining xp incorrectly, which was good, but having to clear a dungeon to gain a single point of experience is a chore. There isn't a good thematic reason why going through DOZENS of enemies in one dungeon gives nothing but money, which also brings another issue: money isn't very helpful. I am gonna have to houserule some things in it.
My son and I went through Gloomhaven and each time we wanted money we would replay a level that gave out a lot of money. After we did this for about 4 times with different characters, we finally said, let’s just average the gold and experience we got, and next time we need money, we will skip actually playing it. Take the average money and experience and move on to the next scenario. So I imagine after playing the game normally a few times, you can determine the average state you are in, gold earned , wounds taken and treasures gained and just take that and skip to the boss fight. Instead of playing similar scenarios multiple times. Sounds like it might work, but will have to play normal for a couple of chapters to build up some data and statistics.
I’m just starting to play. So hope it works for me!
It's for me. With work, kids, wife and friends, I have little free time and do not mind the grind :)
Good, enjoy it :)
I absolutely agree with your review. It seems we both reached the same conclusion around the 15 hr mark. After two boss fights. I also feel disappointment I won’t be around to see the story develop. The grind and sameness of the dungeons…. Finally when I turned the page on a new chapter and saw that I would have to grind my way to a dungeon exit at least 4-6 times…. I just couldn’t push on
Is there any house rules that you or Alex can think of that might improve the experience. Picked this up but likely not going to be able to play for a while, so curious whether there is anything that can be done to improve the experience.
@@PoorlyTimedNedStark the issue is that in each chapter there are a bunch of identical dungeons you can see you will have to get through to advance the story. Short of just skipping ( essentially cheating) most of them I don’t see it.
I wonder if people will come up with a variant to speed up progression so you only have to do one dungeon run instead of 3-4.
Hopefully, I enjoyed my first play of the game but can understand how grind would make it less fun.
@@Zilong09 that’s a one-shot dungeon crawl variant. It’s not a truncation of the campaign’s rate of progression, which is the primary problem with the game.
Yep, I'm curious to see what happens. I know I'm not the only one who had a problem with the grind.
Very curious about this game, almost backed it but decided not due to the grind
I think this has to do with you being a content creator, but I feel your too time constrained to enjoy games like this. It Just seemed like you really enjoyed the game, but because you have other things you need to do, you just don't think its worth it to go through the game completely . If you had no deadline for your channel, and no obligations would you be willing to play a game like this all the way through?
The problem for you was the Crawl part of the Dungeon Crawl. Honestly didn't get this game, but when you stated your problems with it, which were mainly that you had to spend 3-4 hours to even get though a game session, you made me want to get this game. My recent problem with Dungeon Crawl games, is their really Dungeon Skirmish games, their just too short to give you the satisfaction of even going through them.
My first game I ever played that I loved was Descent 1st edition, and I haven't had that real Dungeon Crawl experience since then. Even Gloomhaven, while expansive as a whole, the Dungeons inside are really short. I have been craving that really long Dungeon Crawl game, and honestly I am hoping once I get Chronicles of Drunagor, I get that experience I want. Just Interesting how we differ on so much but I still love your channel, and appreciate your honest feelings on games.
Hey, love your video's!
I do want to say again that the auto-focus (or whatever it is) is very annoying. In this video you can really notice it when looking at the mini's in the main camera view. I have no idea what causes this but it would be great if you can resolve it!
Thanks for all your hard work!
Cheers, Alex (yes that's my name too :)
Bardsung is definitely one that I still want to try, but I am not too shocked with the grind. That is why I didn't back it, watching some of the TTS play throughs, it seemed like a lot of grind of the main dungeon crawl. If this one every shows at my FLGS used, well, I'd definitely grab it then.
It sounds like if the game was house rules and sandboxes it could be truly outstanding. For example, I don’t play Bloodborne campaign *at all* but I love playing Chalice dungeon on its own with house rules and mixed monsters
A customer of mine has me painting up his minis for this game. I asked him how many of each shade he needed and he replied, "I don't really know. Just go with your own ideas." So, I went looking for reviews and game play. Wow. I feel you on your points about the grind and footprint. I have a 2'x4' play space so a lot of games wont fit and that space is at a premium with other activities, such as the above mentioned miniatures painting, so I can't invest more than a few hours for a 'campaign'. I'm not so interested in character progression as I am in exploration and combat, but to go through that many hours for a single level up? Might as well play Elder Scrolls Online.
Well, nice review.
This is one that just looks sooo amazing. The production quality drew me in fast and hard, and I kept regretting not pledging. But I can’t help but watch the content and feel like I made the right call even though I still regret not backing the campaign! They are very contradictory and confusing thoughts…
Fascinating informative review. Have you played Dungeon Universalis then and if so, how would you compare the two.
Have you played Dungeon universalis? I’m super curious and noticed the publisher has a few available for sale and may take the plunge.
@@geoffdenham5063 yes I currently am and loving it. Seems similar in ways to Bardsung but have not played this..
This video is so on point with how I feel about Bardsung. I wanted to love this game, I really did but there's just so many things stopping me from fully enjoying it.
It's a real shame as from day one of the campaign I was excited for this game having been a huge fan of Ian Livingstone in my younger years and his Fighting Fantasy books.
I can't bring myself to part with it just yet as I keep telling myself il give it one more chance but I think it's inevitable it'll leave my collection especially when I have AltarQuest to scratch any dungeon crawler itch I may have given I find it so much easier to table and play for me.
The problem with Bardsung is that the adventure book has 180 pages, and only 2 of those are dedicated to illustrating the types of quests present for the sessions. The remainder illustrates schemes composed of nodes where each node is simply the same type of encounter that follows one another incessantly, interspersed with narrative elements that are not even so engaging. Most of the sessions are all the same, i.e. go north and exit the perimeter to find the ladder and as the review points out, the campaign seems to have been expanded three times. To further undermine the experience is the fact that the monsters are always the same for long sessions, some appear only following certain narrative lines. First you find the hobgoblins, then if you follow a narrative line you meet the zombie hobgoblins, who have nothing particular and use the same miniatures as the common ones. There are tons of miniatures and the campaign always uses the same ones, and the wandering monsters are always the same again. I honestly can't understand how STG could have made a potentially so good game fail this way. They seem to have only been interested in the narrative system of event cards, as if they had extricated themselves into their own world, without realizing that the campaign on the practical side did not have a mission system worthy of the name and would become too repetitive too soon.
Personally it is not a problem for me to redo the campaign in part, inventing new kinds of sessions, expanding the bestiary, increasing difficulty and variety, filling the nodes with content that they do not have but you cannot ask all buyers to do it same I fear.
Some chapters are definitely more grindy than others. Which can feel like a slog sometimes. I really enjoyed the Forteller narration and the boss battles, plus the characters feel very different and have some great upgrade paths. Plus setting up and ‘saving’ progress is very easy. Overall I really like it but the grind holds it back from being truly great in my eyes
Yep, I like the engine...just wish the fun vs repetitiveness were more prevalent.
3 chapters were enough for me. Kept waiting to fight something else other that brigands, brutes and reavers, kept waiting for a cool gameplay twist but none came. I enjoyed the core loop and I love the characters (especially the Fables heroes) but ultimately couldn’t get myself to play more. There is so very little variation to each session that it just felt tedious and unfun. Sold it a week ago.
Hey are you coming to CHARCON in Charleston West Virginia in JULY!!!!!! you have some fans here!!
Sadly not :(
Hey Alex, do you find that chronicles of drunagor is better that Bardsung? If so what makes chronicles stand out more for you?
Yes. I find the upgrading faster and the cube puzzle more rewarding.
Ty for the insight😊 follow question. Would you prefer Drunagor over e.g. decent legends of the dark or summerlair games like it? Maybe that is a good play this not that🤓
Really good review, Bardsung definetly gets too grindy, especially at later chapters I'm finding, but for me I do like everything else! I plan to finish this playthrough 'honestly' and then with the next playthrough skip some encounters by drawing X aspect cards - should cover story content and reduce grind! Also drop to 3 characters from 5, as the tiles get crazy crowded 😂
Maybe Steamforge Games needs to do a bardsung 1.5 with some streamlined rules and a new smaller and more space optimised board.
What about adding house rules? Like every experience gain is doubled? Would that fix it?
sounds like not really, based on the review. it's not like an MMO where you're killing respawning baddies or anything; "Grind" in this case is about the repetitive nature of the dungeon crawling and how far you have to go to feel like the experience is advancing; maybe having half the dungeon crawls in each chapter "fast forward" until a decision point and just assume the players win every encounter would be the kind of house rule that would help. too much content that feels ultimately like filler in the context of the overall experience is the issue, it sounds like.
The issue is that each chapter has too many nodes which have to be played to get through. So you’ll be doing almost the exact same thing for 4-8 hours depending on the chapter (including fighting the same 4 monsters).
Very helpful. Thank you..
Absolutely :)
I have a lot of campaign dungeon crawls, but after this Kickstarter funded, I regretted it. I couldn't quite put my finger on why. Since receiving it, I have laid it all out, but not played it. Probably because of the table space, I have a 4' x 6' games table and the board plus characters plus other components is obnoxious large even on this table. It is just too hard to table physically
Do you think it could work if you house rule an XP multiplier?
I was thinking about it too. Maybe double ou triple XP? What do you think?
Trying to mimic your shelf. We just got ankh and my game groups loving it
Are you getting sick? Just a bit concerned.
I'm already better :) This was filmed when I was just starting to recover.
My brother just got his copy in the mail. No chance of house rules diminishing the grind and make it more enjoyable to play?
You prefer RE3 over RE2?
I've spent some money on these big games, and find them never getting played. Mainly the biggest problem, is this needs to be a group effort in learning game play. This can't be where one person learns and teaches the game. everyone needs to help get through the instructions to make it worth it.
Aside from not having much faith in the publisher I passed on this for the same reason as a lot of fantasy games. It just didn’t sell me on the story/world. Games like Middara and Tanares sold me without a bunch of spoilers so it can be done.
The rulebook was one of the bad things for me, being first contact with the game via the tutorials, I felt that it was leaving too much stuff not explained which led to constant doubts during the tutorials. When I finished them I hoped I had not done the tutorials and had access from the start to the complete rules. For me that idea of tutorials seemed ok before doing it but it was in fact a disaster of a first contact.
I played this game the weekend before last and though it was enjoyable my feelings mirrored yours greatly. We got to the Outlast chapter before calling it for the day. It was very unforgiving, especially when you get overwhelmed by the brutes.
Thanks for saving me time, table space, and most of all money 😂
Always happy to help :)
That is probably the biggest table hog I've seen in a while, and I just played 7th Continent after playing Sleeping Gods :D
The materials look good, but I immediately see "steamforged game" as a concern by the material shown before you even describe it. I feel that it is a bit weird too. You have a mechanic (the deck) for random dungeon construction AND a dungeon book, which seems pretty thick too. This clashes with what I feel was one of the weakest parts of all previously played Steamforged games, the complete lack of level design.
I feel that they tend to go for "a lot of fights in a lot of encounters and maps" rather than *designing* encounters. Level design is absent. This was extremely visible in dark souls (where everything was random, and regular enemies had no chance to really feel distinct. Only one boss even had a really special map and thus got to be the only really different boss). Which brings me back here.
If they have a scenario book which you even have to review a lot...why have random cards too? Why not design interesting dungeons and enemy patterns? This seems to really be part of Steamforged's Style, and it really makes things feel interchangeable and not as interesting to me. TO me at least, designed dungeons almost always feel less "grindy" and more interesting. RNG just never comes up with really interesing challenges.
I think you were very kind in this review. I was a first day backer and definitely wanted to love this but the grind is only a small part of the negatives for me : terrible rule book, awful tokens, unbalanced characters, actual movement rules that are totally vague. The miniatures are pretty good but you could have done it with standees but I feel this was a giant set of miniatures with a rushed game attached.
I think almost all positive reviews and BGG ratings are from people who try to justify big ammount of money drowned into Bardsung 😀.
Even they see big problems with game, they still try to defend it . But I see it that someone can still enjoying Bardsung 😁
Honestly from what I've seen, read and heard about Bardsung this game deserved much lower average score 6-7/10 maybe at best.
8/10 is too much high score for game like this.
That's why I am ignoring BGG community ratings on boardgames :P it means nothing for me ;).
It was pretty cheap really compared to games of similar component structure
This was such a great review. I can hear the disappointment in your voice that this is a game that you're going to leave behind. I think it likely wouldn't work for me either. If I had all the time in the world then maybe, but that is sadly not the case. Thank you again for such a thoughtful review.
Remember, you did not plan to back Bardsung. No wonder the result, often gamers have a good instinct, what is right for them.
Based on early reviews, I sold my copy without playing. The big box took so much space. I am not really looking an entry level dungeon crawler. I might have liked this on some level if trying to tackle the rulebook. People saying the game is repetitive and that didn’t sound good. Sounds like shorter campaign would be better. And the board… My game table does not fit a board that size.
this might be a better game to play on PC....
One more issue, that this game has is positive feedback - first campaign I played started bad and it went only worse and worse and in the end it was almost impossible to finish the play. Restarted campaign and the second time were more lucky with first few leves and then it started to be more and more easy, with last games having no difficulty at all.
100% agree. 3.5 for me. But I really want to at least go through it once.
What dungeon crawl would u recommend ?
Arena: The Contest
What Kyssy said :)
Finally a not positive review. I disagree about the game, but I'm big fan of dungeon crawlers (and I own a huge table) in general so I don't mind most of your complaints. It's not the best experience from these types of games, but pretty solid nonetheless (and better than any other Steamforged games I have seen, especially comparing to those IP-related, maybe with an exception of Resident Evil titles).
Is it only me? A lot of those games don't offer anything unique or new, And dice rolling alone is pushing me away, come on! 2022 and we still roll dices way too many times.... well, another of the same, don't you think?
So you're playing solo so there's no reason to role-play and no one depending on your dice rolls and grinding it out and not switching characters to keep things interesting. You could try some of the one shots where you start with leveled chars too. I think you discovered how to play this game and not have fun and aren't really trying to have fun with it. Of course it's not fun and boring for someone with your experience with in depth strategy games and complex euros. This is like playing a competitive area control game solo by playing three factions and then saying it lacks strategic depth cause you always know what your opponent is going to do. Only someone new to gaming could have fun playing this solo I think.
Also you made it sound like it's one exp per dungeon so 4 hours plus before you can do anything but there are dungeon levels that award multiple exp.
The strategy you choose can reduce the grind and the play time as well. Will that be the best strategy to actually complete? Who knows...
But I actually enjoy the dread and risk and time it takes to do a dungeon. It makes it feel like an adventure but that can also feel like work if you're not doing it in a way you enjoy the strategy, discussion, dice rolls, and role playing.
On top of it the minis are great and def want to paint them.
I think this game is easily a 4-5 rating if:
1. A introductory to role playing is wanted and enjoyable
2. A D&D light dice roll feel
3. Can manage the grind in a way to keep it fun with breaks from the game, swapping characters, and using strategy (etc.)
4. Don't mind the game will probably take years to get through.
5. Have a large dedicated play space.
6. You paint minis
PS
Some things scale 4 vs 5 and some don't. I chose 5 for my 2 player game cause I just wanted more characters
This is a contentious game on BGG. But still gets an 8/10 rating.
Kickstarter hype scores. Most people rate games based on their campaigns and not the actual game.
Honestly even just reading the comments here I'm seeing mixed opinions.
I don't get the name though. As a non-native English speaker, I have to ask if it 's playing with words, using incorrect conjugation on the word 'Birdsong'?
It sounds like dad humor to my dad ears, but it doesn't feel like the name it's meant as a joke?
This was so funny to watch. Thanks for the entertainment!
Lol happy to help :)
I so want to buy this game, but I have heard this criticism too often from too many people. Think I'll pass.
I got mentally exhausted just seeing all of that "stuff" on the table.
The game is actually pretty simple, it just takes a good chunk of space
What Adam said. It's a lot physically, not mentally.
I recently bought a retail copy of bardsung, but i was kinda put off by the mistakes in the box wich weirdly no youtuber has commented on it yet or the kickstarter did not have these problems?
There are 38 Boss Initiative cards (rule book says 37), 17 Misc Boss cards (rule book says 18), and 66 Enemy Profile cards (rule book says 65) and There are 5 N004 cards (different possession creatures named on each)
,There are 3 cards labelled B128 instead of B128, B129 and B130. for a 200 dollar game this is ,for me at least, unacceptable , can any of you confirm these mistakes in their box?
I read the 3 cards numbered 128 isn’t a mistake.
I counted everything in the kickstarter version and it's spot on.
@@JevousGaming thx for answering , where have you found that it is not a mistake, and like lucky 666 has said, in his kickstarter version is everything ok
@@lucky6666 thx for answering , maybe they screwed up the retail version somehow?
@@vanessarinaldi9551 On BGG and on the FB page one of the designers clarified this. I also thought it was a mistake.
Minis are fragile (2x already have broken for me as far as I know)..
Setup is “quick” but all those cards, event cards it takes a lot of time and is fiddly.
One encounter takes far too long, far too long for me, because it gets repetetive and booring..
Pluses, interesting initiative track, a lot of variabilit, like really a lot of content there.
At the end of the day it is not for me, as I am not a fan of dungeon cralwers in general and I kinda thought this could be accesible enough for me to start liking them. Frosthaven will have the second chance for dungeon crawlers for me 😀
In the past you have admitted that narrative campaign games are not your thing, so i wonder why you continue talking about them. I know that you try to give us your honest opinion, but even so it is the opinion of someone that doesn’t like this kind of games. Can you tell me how many campaign games have you finished?
I want to say that i’m not defending Bardsung… i haven’t played it and i didn’t back it, just because it’s too light for me.
On the other hand let me say that i enjoy your content, exept when you try to talk objectively about something you dislike. 😅
Welp! Saved me a hundred bucks. Thanks, mate.
Absolutely:)
Disappointed to hear about the grind. I almost backed this but I'm almost happy I didnt
Yep, good game, but wish for more.
Kind of described gloomhaven there. Is it truly slower.
Gloomhaven’s scenarios are varied enough and the challenge is balanced enough that each session felt at least somewhat unique. This is literally the exact same thing, over and over again.
There were clear red flags in this campaign…still feel sorry for those who backed this
Don't feel sorry...this sells for twice what I paid for it.
This sounds pretty good to me. Getting skills slowly, lots of grinding. However, I don't have any faith in the company that made it. They botched Dark Souls board game, tabletop RPG, maybe the card game too? Hard to justify sinking money into their games when they just botch a game and abandon it yet keep selling it anyway.
Might be a good thing I passed. I play on a 6x2 folding table 😅
That would be....tough.
@@BoardGameCo The MUX playmat doesn't even fit haha
Agreed. This game is a total waste of Earth's natural resources and our time.
I mean...harsher than I would have put it :) I'm just not keeping it.
I couldn't disagree more and its unfortunate that you influence people to not play the game. I think people need to think of this not as a board game, because it isn't, but as a replacement for D&D for those that don't have time for everything that goes into a D&D adventure. A board game is something you can complete with your friends over an evening, day, or weekend. This game is a commitment, just like D&D. Go in with that mindset and you'll have a great time.
And of course playing by yourself is nothing but grind. What did you think it was going to be?
So are you getting rid of this now because it’s a new game and easier to sell with it being so new and shiny rather than going through everything first and then sell it? Game looks like a commitment but a good commitment if you have time.
This sounds more of a roguelike boardgame. A genre which is still very different then your cookie cutter WHQ template (but very popular in video games). Thank you for the review/first impression! I am now looking forward to my play of this!
Yeah, was looking forward to this one and we played it once. Then i looked at the campaign book to see what would be next and it looked like we'd have to play almost the same scenario again. Same enemies, no hero advancement, etc. I was hoping the pace would pick up later on, but you're only confirming what i've feared. Back to Drunagor!
What did you get for winning the first scenario? I heard you "don't get treasure". Do you find new weapons and armor, gold, etc? Can you buy stuff?
@@p0ck3tp3ar you get 3xp and the chance to spend your gold to buy back items you used or a treasure.
@@AdamHennebeck What kind of treasure?
Finally!!
:)
Actually is downsite of every big box campaign game.
Listened to the review a couple times now because of how bizarre a taste this game has left me with. It's so true how badly paced it is. You seriously get 1 exp for finishing one of those "nodes" in a chapter, or something to that matter. That can be hours of play especially if like me it takes so long to configure the set up so your second player doesn't want to pull their hair out. Of that node there can be four or even ten in a chapter.. I think Alex is being a tad too kind to it with the 3.5/5, because like him I am very enamored by the characters and the potential but the design of the game is intended to be unbelievably drawn out to the point of ennui. that 1 exp mentioned above? is 1 of 3 or more exp to get your Skill, or action or passive to the next level. For some that is barely any progression. A node with so many encounters needs to reward you with way more. Gold feels useless. It just fuels the grind because it is used solely to purchase means to crawl longer (i.e. campfires to save you progress in a node and tools to solve certain encounters). The Echo mechanic is actually really fun and the vast characters and character mechanics are so exciting to try (except for the centaur. Holy shit is he bad). The Hex warrior? she literally does damage based on the marching order. That's pretty neat! Did we mention you can also roleplay as Animal Adventure dogs/cats from SFG? yes, there is skin overs for the base characters. You can be a dog mage obliterating a Cave Shark! Alas those good points don't carry the game. It's just too long and so much ruined potential. You fight and fight with pennies as the reward. You have to go through so much set up! 2-2.5 out of 5 is a generous enough rating I say. I'm sad. It's pretty. It will collect dust unless I feel up to Bardhammer. Cheers to you Alex for giving this game so much time. After 15 hours, I did not care to be bardsung...
Besides Gloomhaven.
At least Gloomhaven has complex puzzle-ly combat which keeps it interesting.
@@Unit17 That actually is what turned me off of the game. I loved it for a while but eventually I realized I prefer dice chucking. I'm tired of every damn board game being a puzzle.
Yep, Gloomhaven is awesome, but not for everyone.
@@BoardGameCo I played about 40 scenarios and it was incredible but eventually I learned I prefer faster paced combat.
I find the use of the word 'grind' to be over-used in reviews. I get increasingly frustrated by viewers of such reviews who see it as the easy takeaway for them review. They then repeat this lazy soundbite, yet with no understanding at all. All of a sudden a game is known of as 'the grindy game' by people who have never played it.
Remember that one gamer's grind, might be another's 'core gameplay' or even 'highlight'. For them there is no 'grind' and they'll hear that word as being dismissive of what they love, because that word may already carry a deeper intimation from prior usage. Let's say they loved Tainted Grail and were frustrated about their favourite game being a 'grind'. Now hearing that word again for Bardsung may reignite that frustration.
So don't review differently, but beware of leaning on a word like 'grind' too much. It could end up being problematic to your viewers, seeing it as a shallow dismissal of their enjoyment.
But if the gameplay is a grind, then it’s a grind. However if you are into games that require lots of time to produce little results and need to have more sessions to progress in that game, then this is the game for you. It’s not a lazy soundbite, but rather an accurate term to be used to help people understand what kind of game you are getting into.
One could argue that a game that is labeled as a grind makes it more appealing to a certain group of people.
Would you prefer that he uses a term like slogfest, monotonously repetitive, or too much work for too little reward? I can’t think of a better term to use.
Yeah, he’s describing it as a grind because that’s exactly what it felt like to him. He did say it might not be a grind for others.
Beware of telling a reviewer they’re lazy or taking the easy way out or going for sound bites just because you don’t agree with them.
A reviewer should not have to inaccurately describe their playing experience just because using the word "grind" might offend the delicate feelings of a commenter.
The real takeaway here is that perhaps you shouldn't use reviews as validation for your purchasing decisions. If you're this angry that people didn't like a game you liked, you're not understanding what reviews are for.
The game is a grind in its current form for man people, and as such you'll correctly encounter the word in reviews. That's the nature of grindy games.
@@fy8798 FWIW I very much don't use reviews for validation, and you've incorrectly interpreted that. I'm certainly not at all angry, so again, please don't assume that.
*ALL* I am saying, is not to overuse a single word that is already starting to carry baggage. I like Alex's recognition that others may have differing views, and for me that sets him aside from the stridency of (say) NPI or SUSD. That subtlety and balance can be lost though, through over-reliance on a single word.
It's an altogether different setting (and I'm not likening the two), but the word 'woke' gives an example of how overusing a single word, starts to build baggage from prior use. People hear that word and assume it fits their prior experience. That word is now one I won't use, as it's become an indicator to which trench someone argues from, and I don't believe in trenchant views.
So to reiterate, all I'm saying is to avoid overusing the word 'grind', as it will distract the viewer's attention from the more nuanced comments that are where Alex shines.
I hope that clarifies.