Things got so heated because he is caught in that uncomfortable space between caring and fearing change. Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable. Growth is uncomfortable. I hope you pushed him to grow.
@@stevenmarkhansen It's not an appeal to futility to point out facts. How can he be a 'person who does not eat or use animal products' while using animal products needlessly and pretending to be against it?
Wow Cip this this one was a challenge, I think she was more receptive yo what you were saying, and she if they are a couple must have a hard life with him I think that is the most heated I've seen you get since I have been following you but you still kept your cool. Well done
The Vaush-esque appeal to hypocrisy argument that "microphones tho" and "clothes tho" don't add up How does boycotting a microphone or sweat shop clothing improve conditions of people in third world countries? explain it to me? It seems that it would not - if everyone collectively boycotts a sweatshop factory in Indonesia and it goes out of business, those people actually seem worse off right? Am i missing something? Boycotting animal products has an actual measurable effect of animals not being bred into existence and undergoing the treatment us vegans all know about..
Yeah, I think you're actually already granting too much by making a positive argument towards utility / rights-promotion decrease in the case of consuming sweatshop products. Even if we'd simply remain agnostic towards the effect of boycotting sweatshop products, then the case for boycotting animal products is immeasurably more convincing. (and all of this is not even considering the nearly unimaginably cosmic difference in scale and conditions between the 2 cases)
One is either for or against abusing animals, eating less body parts of animals that don't want to die still makes you an animal abuser/murderer. This man was more interested in defending his rights to take someone's life for his own pleasure than giving any thought to his victims of choice. Great vegan outreach, I hope he will listen to Gary Yourofsky and think again about the conversation he had with you, the lady was not as closed minded,hopefully she will also think about the conversation . No one should have to suffer and die so we can live, this is 2024, we can choose to live kindly and choose to live a nonviolent life because we are so privileged to have access to thousands of wonderful nutritious delicious healthy foods that don't deliberately cause suffering and death to anyone.
Completely agree! And, looking back, it does seem that she was more open to it. When I was there I was really invested in what this guy was saying and didn't notice that she was actually somewhat understanding the message. I guess, lesson learned: when outreaching more people, actually pay attention to all of them. You are right! He was defending his right to enslave and slaughter innocent sentient individuals more than anything.
I think at least part of the reason why this discussion got so heated is because you never properly addressed his main argument. His main argument was an appeal to futility and however ridiculous that is, he seemed to really be invested in it. It would have been interesting to hear him explain why he thinks that because "everything is immoral" justifies paying for animals to be sent to the slaughterhouse in the absence of necessity.
That’s a very good point. I think I got sucked into the whole thing, but indeed, it’s not about being moral or immoral. It’s about animals not being used, abused and slaughtered. Thanks for the suggestion, Lobo 🤗💚
Well done, Cip. It’s so hard to think about the best rebuttal at times and you more often than not do think of it! When he was saying about clothes and phones I was thinking that a response would be to explain that they are things we need, and if he has any suggestions on how we can get either of them items in a more ethical way then please enlighten- I don’t this he would have had an answer and of course it was a deflection attempt and appeal to futility fallacy, as you said. You keep going, my friend!
That's a good idea, but I feel like with people like this they could see grey areas everywhere. He said that he thinks that he needs it. And, with other people, they could still consume dairy products and claim that it "can be done ethically". One of my first discussions I had when doing outreach was with the son of a dairy farmer and he claimed exactly that: he wished it were done better, but it's the system's fault, it's the government's fault for them not receiving enough money... And, I just don't want to end up debating that... But, I do agree that perhaps making the "need" argument in this case may have added a bit of gravity to how ridiculous his argument is. Thanks for the suggestion 🤗
Thank you Cip. I love, love, love your approach! You are amazing. 🔥🔥🔥 My only suggestion (to consider) is to have a vegan sign, like 'Amber for Animals' does. Otherwise 99% walk past and do not receive a vegan message.
Thank you so much! 💚 I've been holding onto this conversation for a while because I didn't think it was a good one, but I see that it's good to also post these more intense conversations. Thanks for watching 🤗
Would have been good to explain to him that there are different degrees of immoral. What we do to animals is pretty high up there compared to everything else
That is true. But, I think that I explained that a person cannot be moral or immoral, but rather the actions that they do are. But, indeed, when there are victims, we could argue that even some actions are worse than others. Thanks for the suggestion 🤗💚
Wow! I heard one argument I hadn't heard in the last million of these I've seen. Great work! You looked good! He looked bad! How many times do you need to hear that? Have a pat on the back. There are so many of these here already, do you honestly believe this is the most effective use of your time if your desire is animal liberation any time soon? Or are we just paying the bills? If so then I understand, any activism is better than none?
What? Based on your handle I assume you're not vegan and yet you think there is a better way to get the world to be vegan (to not use&abuse animals)? Please, tell me.. what better way is there other than talking to people and publishing the conversations (at this point in time)?
@@veganpowerlab And sadly there it is, no ideas, just follow the herd looking for pats on the back and make some $ knowing that this method is far too slow to cause more to become vegan today than those who are being born to meat eaters. Overall numbers of meat eaters are increasing daily and you think this is the best way forward? It has a place but if you truly want to end it in your lifetime then as well as encouraging others to think, you need to do so yourself.
@@veganpowerlab Do you want me to breathe for you? Think for yourself man. Overall numbers of meat eaters are increasing daily and you think this is the best way forward? It has a place but if you truly want to end it in your lifetime then as well as encouraging others to think, you need to do so yourself.
@@Vegan4TheAnimalsNOT2SellTShrts So, you don't have any better method. You came here to criticise and can't even hold your own argument. The minute I question it you turn it around on me? Your argument is that how I'm doing it is not effective enough, so please tell me how to do it otherwise. Clearly I've done my research and I think that this is the best way. So, again, you disagree with it, but don't mention a solution. And again, if you have a solution, how come you haven't applied it to yourself?
This guy's logic is basically serial killer logic like "Oh yeah I killed this man but I took the time to learn everything about his life, where he grew up and where he studied, so it's okay"
Do you ask these people's permission to publish the video after the convo? I was just wondering how confident this guy was about how he came across during this exchange 💀
@@veganpowerlab similarly to how you do it, except replace 'would it be moral' with 'do they still deserve rights' or 'would it still be a holocaust' (you probably at least need 'mass killing' as well; perhaps mentioning the gas chambers and concentration camps + trucks, or even social defamation etc. would do well). Even with differences to the Holocaust, like the animals aren't hated, you can continue it as a comparison (for example, in the (animal) holocaust, the victims aren't hated - but they are defamed as products). As with here czcams.com/video/XATYJTbn_Mc/video.html I think there's also a value in helping them identify the relevant positive internal trait (sentience) before bringing up animals. It highlights ad hoc discrimination (speciesism, racism etc.) as a denial of that, rather than mere unfairness.
I wonder if a large number of people going partially vegan is more impactful than a small number of people going completely vegan. Just to ballpark it: If 8 billion diets have 11% meat consumption, then that's equivalent to 880M carnivorous diets. If 8 billion diets have 10% meat consumption, then that's 800M carnivorous diets. If 80M people have a diet of 11% meat consumption, and give it up completely, then that's equivalent to removing 8.8M carnivorous diets. Thus, getting the entire planet to give up 1% of the meat they eat, assuming 11% of their diet is meat, is 100x more impactful than getting 1% of the planet to go vegan. This is a very basic calculation, but I think the idea is right. Getting a large number of people to give up a small amount of meat is more impactful than getting a small number of people to give up all meat and animal produce. This is not to say that a vegan diet is the most impactful diet a single person can switch to, but if the goal is reducing animal suffering on a large scale, then telling people "unless you go vegan, it's unacceptable" is probably not the most effective way to reach that goal. There is a Japanese philosophy of small, gradual changes leading eventually to large change, and the philosophy is called Kaizen.
Being vegan is not about reducing suffering though. It's about granting animals rights. Are we really granting them rights when we use them? I don't advocate for reductionism. I think it's a good step, as I mentioned in the video, but it is not enough. Imagine someone who says women should have rights but then violates their rights once a week..
@@veganpowerlab I look at it from a more practical point of view. We can pretty much be 100% certain that everyone will not go vegan tomorrow. We can also be fairly certain that everyone won't be vegan in a year from now. I would ask you if you think this is the case but I think we can just take it as given. We certainly need vegans leading the way, but I think asking people to be reductionists and to eventually transition to veganism instead of asking them to be vegan tomorrow is more likely to get a response. People need time to overhaul their diets, and some vegans themselves were omnivores at some point in their past. If someone could give me a vegan diet right now that got all the nutrients I need, and the food didn't spoil, and it was the same amount of effort as my current diet, and it was food that had enough variety and worked for me, I would switch now. Those things are not all the case. I'll probably get there eventually, but I have already found a lot of vegan alternatives to what I was eating a month or two ago.
@@wiggles7976 It's great to hear that you're trying. I fully support that! And, if you need any help or have any questions, let me know. Maybe I can point you in the right direction. As for asking people to reduce. Well, I will always advocate for abolition. If people choose to reduce meanwhile until they abolish it, I can't dunk on them. I understand some people find it difficult, even if it really isn't that big of a deal. But, as long as their goal is to go vegan and stop exploiting animals, I'm supportive!
@@veganpowerlab I have a simple question, actually. I'm just trying to find a vegan alternative to a ham sandwich. I'm looking for something that's as easy to prepare as a ham sandwich and will keep in a lunchbox unrefrigerated for 4 or 5 hours. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich is one type, but I'm looking for something else. I am thinking that an avocado sandwich would oxidize, and tofu needs to be fried, so I would only be able to make these at home and not bring them to work. Are there any vegan sandwiches that can replace a ham sandwich in a lunchbox?
@@wiggles7976 i mean, there’s vegan ham. If you’re in uk or europe you can find one from the brand la vie. Pretty good. And, I’m sure US also has some good vegan ham
How is it in this guy's mind veganism is about being a saint basically? Yeah we should care about all those issues but that is another subject lol. The subject of veganism is animal suffering, that is all. Lol.
Absolutely loved watching her facial reactions to the things you were saying, because she actually took the information in and understood what you were saying and that it was objectively true, and then her reactions to her friend/partner, who was extremely triggered and actually had no real arguments because he clearly doesn't know what he's paying for and for unnecessary reasons, that were essentially just reactions of pure disappointment and most definitely embarrassment haha. Great outreach Cip, one of these people definitely understood better than the other and i think it's very clear who that was 🌱
Sometimes you have to realise that you cannot change people views time to walk away and realise that sometimes. You have to let people be the away they are
Things got so heated because he is caught in that uncomfortable space between caring and fearing change. Cognitive dissonance is uncomfortable. Growth is uncomfortable. I hope you pushed him to grow.
That is TRUE! He was so triggered because he knew he does something unethical.
I hope so too. He did seem intelligent enough to understand
if i don't smoke crack for 3 hours i feel like crap, so crack is good for you
I need MEAT or else i feel BAD!!! (i haven't even tried being vegan, and btw Meat has Fiber)
@@leeduli haha
That’s a good comparison.. haha
the women's rights comparison was super good in that moment 👌
I agree. I thought that maybe I should've brought it earlier 🤔
Thanks for watching 💚🤗
this guy's appeals to futility are ridiculous. he is like a dog whose bone is being taken away❣
I think he was upset or something before having a conversation with me
@@veganpowerlab yeah it kinda seemed like the two of them had already been discussing the topic before hand❣
@@stevenmarkhansen It's not an appeal to futility to point out facts.
How can he be a 'person who does not eat or use animal products' while using animal products needlessly and pretending to be against it?
Wow Cip this this one was a challenge, I think she was more receptive yo what you were saying, and she if they are a couple must have a hard life with him I think that is the most heated I've seen you get since I have been following you but you still kept your cool. Well done
It did get heated, yes. I think that it got heated not just because of the arguments, but also because of the interruption and just discussion ethics
The Vaush-esque appeal to hypocrisy argument that "microphones tho" and "clothes tho" don't add up
How does boycotting a microphone or sweat shop clothing improve conditions of people in third world countries? explain it to me?
It seems that it would not - if everyone collectively boycotts a sweatshop factory in Indonesia and it goes out of business, those people actually seem worse off right? Am i missing something?
Boycotting animal products has an actual measurable effect of animals not being bred into existence and undergoing the treatment us vegans all know about..
Yeah, I think you're actually already granting too much by making a positive argument towards utility / rights-promotion decrease in the case of consuming sweatshop products. Even if we'd simply remain agnostic towards the effect of boycotting sweatshop products, then the case for boycotting animal products is immeasurably more convincing. (and all of this is not even considering the nearly unimaginably cosmic difference in scale and conditions between the 2 cases)
@skeej_ yeah it's an annoying cope. It's not like when you buy a t shirt it puts someone to death.
the day she realized she had an egocentric hypocrite boyfriend
One is either for or against abusing animals, eating less body parts of animals that don't want to die still makes you an animal abuser/murderer.
This man was more interested in defending his rights to take someone's life for his own pleasure than giving any thought to his victims of choice.
Great vegan outreach, I hope he will listen to Gary Yourofsky and think again about the conversation he had with you, the lady was not as closed minded,hopefully she will also think about the conversation .
No one should have to suffer and die so we can live, this is 2024, we can choose to live kindly and choose to live a nonviolent life because we are so privileged to have access to thousands of wonderful nutritious delicious healthy foods that don't deliberately cause suffering and death to anyone.
Completely agree! And, looking back, it does seem that she was more open to it. When I was there I was really invested in what this guy was saying and didn't notice that she was actually somewhat understanding the message.
I guess, lesson learned: when outreaching more people, actually pay attention to all of them.
You are right! He was defending his right to enslave and slaughter innocent sentient individuals more than anything.
Oh i found delusionally cruelty free vegan
Great outreach, i admire your patience, it was hard work .
Thank you so much, Martin 🙏🤗💚💚
I think at least part of the reason why this discussion got so heated is because you never properly addressed his main argument. His main argument was an appeal to futility and however ridiculous that is, he seemed to really be invested in it. It would have been interesting to hear him explain why he thinks that because "everything is immoral" justifies paying for animals to be sent to the slaughterhouse in the absence of necessity.
That’s a very good point. I think I got sucked into the whole thing, but indeed, it’s not about being moral or immoral. It’s about animals not being used, abused and slaughtered.
Thanks for the suggestion, Lobo 🤗💚
Well done, Cip. It’s so hard to think about the best rebuttal at times and you more often than not do think of it! When he was saying about clothes and phones I was thinking that a response would be to explain that they are things we need, and if he has any suggestions on how we can get either of them items in a more ethical way then please enlighten- I don’t this he would have had an answer and of course it was a deflection attempt and appeal to futility fallacy, as you said.
You keep going, my friend!
That's a good idea, but I feel like with people like this they could see grey areas everywhere. He said that he thinks that he needs it. And, with other people, they could still consume dairy products and claim that it "can be done ethically".
One of my first discussions I had when doing outreach was with the son of a dairy farmer and he claimed exactly that: he wished it were done better, but it's the system's fault, it's the government's fault for them not receiving enough money... And, I just don't want to end up debating that...
But, I do agree that perhaps making the "need" argument in this case may have added a bit of gravity to how ridiculous his argument is. Thanks for the suggestion 🤗
Amazing job. 👏👏👏💚
Thank you! 😊🤗💚
Thank you Cip. I love, love, love your approach! You are amazing. 🔥🔥🔥
My only suggestion (to consider) is to have a vegan sign, like 'Amber for Animals' does. Otherwise 99% walk past and do not receive a vegan message.
Thank you so much! I’ve been thinking about that more and more.
You are right, a good sign may give out information even to people just walking by
Amazing, Cip. You're an inspiration.
Thank you so much! 💚 I've been holding onto this conversation for a while because I didn't think it was a good one, but I see that it's good to also post these more intense conversations.
Thanks for watching 🤗
Background music is chefs kiss.
Video title should have been "my heart will go on"
Hahaha.. it’s a bit annoying when I’m there, cause it’s quite loud. This is with enough voice isolation
Be Vegan, live vegan, love vegan 💚💚💚💚💚💚
The only way 💚💚💚
Great way of handling the conversation, Chip! Stayed right on track with ethics in the focus.
Thanks! I think I got sucked into being moral instead of focusing on the reason for being moral: the animals
great approach, not easy to escape after the reveal lol
i still don't get why one would fight for his right to eat meat, it's so stupid
He can eat meat if he wants. There is plant based meat. The point is to not violate animal's rights.
Thanks for watching 🤗💚
Would have been good to explain to him that there are different degrees of immoral. What we do to animals is pretty high up there compared to everything else
That is true. But, I think that I explained that a person cannot be moral or immoral, but rather the actions that they do are. But, indeed, when there are victims, we could argue that even some actions are worse than others.
Thanks for the suggestion 🤗💚
Ah, the desperate appeal to hypocrisy. The last refuge of every reactionary. Let's not have a better world. because the best of us aren't perfect.
Exactly! 🤗 His statement means that we could never ever do anything... after all, we'll never be perfect...
Wow! I heard one argument I hadn't heard in the last million of these I've seen. Great work! You looked good! He looked bad! How many times do you need to hear that? Have a pat on the back. There are so many of these here already, do you honestly believe this is the most effective use of your time if your desire is animal liberation any time soon? Or are we just paying the bills? If so then I understand, any activism is better than none?
What? Based on your handle I assume you're not vegan and yet you think there is a better way to get the world to be vegan (to not use&abuse animals)?
Please, tell me.. what better way is there other than talking to people and publishing the conversations (at this point in time)?
@@veganpowerlab And sadly there it is, no ideas, just follow the herd looking for pats on the back and make some $ knowing that this method is far too slow to cause more to become vegan today than those who are being born to meat eaters. Overall numbers of meat eaters are increasing daily and you think this is the best way forward? It has a place but if you truly want to end it in your lifetime then as well as encouraging others to think, you need to do so yourself.
I ask again, what is that method that is better? And why don’t you apply it on yourself?
@@veganpowerlab Do you want me to breathe for you? Think for yourself man. Overall numbers of meat eaters are increasing daily and you think this is the best way forward? It has a place but if you truly want to end it in your lifetime then as well as encouraging others to think, you need to do so yourself.
@@Vegan4TheAnimalsNOT2SellTShrts So, you don't have any better method. You came here to criticise and can't even hold your own argument. The minute I question it you turn it around on me?
Your argument is that how I'm doing it is not effective enough, so please tell me how to do it otherwise. Clearly I've done my research and I think that this is the best way. So, again, you disagree with it, but don't mention a solution.
And again, if you have a solution, how come you haven't applied it to yourself?
This guy's logic is basically serial killer logic like "Oh yeah I killed this man but I took the time to learn everything about his life, where he grew up and where he studied, so it's okay"
💚💚💚💚💚🌱
Allyyy 🤗💚💚💚 thanks for being there at the premiere
What is biological food? I live in USA, is like that free range/grass fed or something?
"Biological "is what they call " Organic" here in europe .
It's what you'd call organic in the US
❤
💚🤗
First
Great conversation, planting seeds, building forests.
Well done, beautifully handled 💗💗
Do you ask these people's permission to publish the video after the convo? I was just wondering how confident this guy was about how he came across during this exchange 💀
I don’t. Legally, I don’t need permission, but I also don’t feel like it’s needed. After all, they do see the camera and the mic
"I totally agree and support animal rights blah, blah, blah...........BUT MY BODY NEEEEEEDS IT!!!!!!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah, exactly... 🤣🤣 He supports animal rights until it becomes inconvenient for him to do so
Yes, Lex Luthor. Animal rights did not come from an animal.
Whether he indulges in murder and abuse or he cuts down on murder and abuse, it's still murder and abuse.
Third
🥉
maybe you could even lead the setup-reasoning on to recognising the animal holocaust and animal rights violations
How would you do that?
@@veganpowerlab similarly to how you do it, except replace 'would it be moral' with 'do they still deserve rights' or 'would it still be a holocaust' (you probably at least need 'mass killing' as well; perhaps mentioning the gas chambers and concentration camps + trucks, or even social defamation etc. would do well). Even with differences to the Holocaust, like the animals aren't hated, you can continue it as a comparison (for example, in the (animal) holocaust, the victims aren't hated - but they are defamed as products).
As with here czcams.com/video/XATYJTbn_Mc/video.html I think there's also a value in helping them identify the relevant positive internal trait (sentience) before bringing up animals. It highlights ad hoc discrimination (speciesism, racism etc.) as a denial of that, rather than mere unfairness.
Is there any non biological food? 😂😂😂
In EU biological is a different word for "organic"
This man is too selfish to become vegan. There is no hope for him, however there is hope for his girlfriend.
Indeed. I wish I saw it in the moment. But, I got sucked into the conversation
I wonder if a large number of people going partially vegan is more impactful than a small number of people going completely vegan. Just to ballpark it: If 8 billion diets have 11% meat consumption, then that's equivalent to 880M carnivorous diets. If 8 billion diets have 10% meat consumption, then that's 800M carnivorous diets. If 80M people have a diet of 11% meat consumption, and give it up completely, then that's equivalent to removing 8.8M carnivorous diets. Thus, getting the entire planet to give up 1% of the meat they eat, assuming 11% of their diet is meat, is 100x more impactful than getting 1% of the planet to go vegan. This is a very basic calculation, but I think the idea is right. Getting a large number of people to give up a small amount of meat is more impactful than getting a small number of people to give up all meat and animal produce. This is not to say that a vegan diet is the most impactful diet a single person can switch to, but if the goal is reducing animal suffering on a large scale, then telling people "unless you go vegan, it's unacceptable" is probably not the most effective way to reach that goal. There is a Japanese philosophy of small, gradual changes leading eventually to large change, and the philosophy is called Kaizen.
Being vegan is not about reducing suffering though. It's about granting animals rights. Are we really granting them rights when we use them?
I don't advocate for reductionism. I think it's a good step, as I mentioned in the video, but it is not enough. Imagine someone who says women should have rights but then violates their rights once a week..
@@veganpowerlab I look at it from a more practical point of view. We can pretty much be 100% certain that everyone will not go vegan tomorrow. We can also be fairly certain that everyone won't be vegan in a year from now. I would ask you if you think this is the case but I think we can just take it as given. We certainly need vegans leading the way, but I think asking people to be reductionists and to eventually transition to veganism instead of asking them to be vegan tomorrow is more likely to get a response. People need time to overhaul their diets, and some vegans themselves were omnivores at some point in their past.
If someone could give me a vegan diet right now that got all the nutrients I need, and the food didn't spoil, and it was the same amount of effort as my current diet, and it was food that had enough variety and worked for me, I would switch now. Those things are not all the case. I'll probably get there eventually, but I have already found a lot of vegan alternatives to what I was eating a month or two ago.
@@wiggles7976 It's great to hear that you're trying. I fully support that! And, if you need any help or have any questions, let me know. Maybe I can point you in the right direction.
As for asking people to reduce. Well, I will always advocate for abolition. If people choose to reduce meanwhile until they abolish it, I can't dunk on them.
I understand some people find it difficult, even if it really isn't that big of a deal. But, as long as their goal is to go vegan and stop exploiting animals, I'm supportive!
@@veganpowerlab I have a simple question, actually. I'm just trying to find a vegan alternative to a ham sandwich. I'm looking for something that's as easy to prepare as a ham sandwich and will keep in a lunchbox unrefrigerated for 4 or 5 hours. A peanut butter and jelly sandwich is one type, but I'm looking for something else. I am thinking that an avocado sandwich would oxidize, and tofu needs to be fried, so I would only be able to make these at home and not bring them to work. Are there any vegan sandwiches that can replace a ham sandwich in a lunchbox?
@@wiggles7976 i mean, there’s vegan ham. If you’re in uk or europe you can find one from the brand la vie. Pretty good. And, I’m sure US also has some good vegan ham
@11:30 1/6 of the world population lives in "1st world countries", far from 1 per cent ^^
second
🥈
How is it in this guy's mind veganism is about being a saint basically? Yeah we should care about all those issues but that is another subject lol. The subject of veganism is animal suffering, that is all. Lol.
Lol
"I FEEL like I need it" lmao. Freaking feelers. Maybe if he thought instead of felt he would have a different opinion.
I shall be eating a lunch which follows the close of dietary experimentation.. mild, cod loin, coconut curry. I'm not a herbivore.
Not just accused, confirmed.
You use animal products just like everyone else.
Gary Yourofsky sucks
You wish.
@@Vegan4TheAnimalsNOT2SellTShrts What is that supposed to mean?
deemstars
@@Iam-not-VEGAN-but- yes
@@Vegan4TheAnimalsNOT2SellTShrts He doesn't make content
Absolutely loved watching her facial reactions to the things you were saying, because she actually took the information in and understood what you were saying and that it was objectively true, and then her reactions to her friend/partner, who was extremely triggered and actually had no real arguments because he clearly doesn't know what he's paying for and for unnecessary reasons, that were essentially just reactions of pure disappointment and most definitely embarrassment haha. Great outreach Cip, one of these people definitely understood better than the other and i think it's very clear who that was 🌱
Sometimes you have to realise that you cannot change people views time to walk away and realise that sometimes. You have to let people be the away they are
Eventually I realized it too. But, you’re right, yeah