Counterplay in Hearthstone
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Reynad gives his thoughts about counterplay in Hearthstone and good card design to encourage counterplay.
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Tempo Storm is a professional esports organization featuring some of the best players and casters in Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, The Fighting Game Community (FGC), FiFA, and World of Warcraft. Founded by Reynad, Tempo Storm has grown from a Hearthstone only organization to having a strong presence in a myriad of competitive esports scenes under his guidence.
This channel focuses on helping Hearthstone players develop deck building skills, game sense, as well as providing funny Hearthstone related content. Featuring guides, deck techs, and general strategies for Hearthstone this channel also has Videos on Demand (VODS) of professional gaming tournaments as well. In addition, this channel features a variety of funny stream highlights and esports moments from throughout the gaming community, including the founder of Tempo storm Andrey “Reynad” Yanyuk.
![Reynad on the Hearthstone Balance Patch [Update 6.1.3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/g3sHfpbKH2c/mqdefault.jpg)
reynad in the first round of a spelling bee:
teacher: okay andrey, your word is "burglar"
reynad: B-U-C-K-L-E-R
buck.... i mean... uhh... it is... buckl... no but yeah uhm.. hmm can you please use the word in a sentence?
Yeah and he was so good not saying "Babbling Brook"
To be fair until this comment I always thought it was called swashbuckler too.
Reynad entire plan is to tell Blizzard how to fix their game so eventually when he gets hired after his great ideas, he can kill the dude that's screwing with his rng. Become infamous.
Great video reynoodle. I stopped watching your streams, but it's YT content like this why you're still one of my favorite HS content creators.
Keep up the great work and cheers!
+1
I agree! This is a great video and I can't wait for the next one!
Yes! Like #100!
5 mana 3/8 Taunt. Show your opponent a random card from your hand. (Rare, Paladin)
7 mana 4/8 Deal damage equal to the number of your opponent's unspent mana crystals. (Epic, Neutral)
6 mana 2/6 Taunt. Restore health to your hero equal to the number of enemy minions that died this game. (Rare, Neutral)
4 mana 6/3 If your opponent has 4 or more minions, silence them. (Common, Neutral)
1 mana spell Next turn your opponent's minions cost (1) more for every spell they played last turn. (Epic, Hunter)
6 mana minion. Battlecry: Reduce the cost of the card on the far left of your hand.
2 mana 1/4. "Each player can only attack with one minion per turn".
Perhaps value graveyard mechanics? Such as:
5M: 4/6 Battlecry: Choose a creature that died this game and add it to your hand.
8M: 3/6 Taunt Battlecry: Summon 2 of your minions that died this game with half stats and taunt.
4M: 2/7 Passive: Targeted spells cannot be cast. (Perhaps all spells cost 2 more for 2 turns, or perhaps hero's cannot be targeted, or not minions.)
10M: 7/10 Cannot be targeted, Battlecry: Choose a spell you cast this game and put it into your hand. Deathrattle: Choose a spell you cast this game and put it into your hand.
3M: 2/4 Taunt Battlecry: Look at your opponents hand this turn.
2M Spell: Deal two damage and look at the top 4 cards of you deck (In the order you would draw them).
3M Priest Spell: If you survive next turn heal for all damage you took that turn.
4M : 4/4 Battlecry: Destroy Target friendly minion then re-summon it next turn and trigger it's battlecry. (Not C'thun but not sure how to word it to not be OP)
I'll end here but I want people to understand that I believe hearthstone just lacks many fun mechanics that are in other card games such as: Graveyard, Hand, and Choice mechanics.
I also think the game lacks good solid 10 drops, if you survive until turn 10 (possibly with a 10drop in you hand the whole time) YOU SHOULD BE REWARDED WITH A BOMB CARD.
Battlecries that don't have the world's shitiest stats. It might be a surprise to everyone but good battlecries that come on 1/3 statlines just aren't viable.
Finally, the only thing in my opinion that competes with borderline broken good cards is other borderline broken cards. If more cards just 'seemed' straight-up good then 4M 7/7 wouldn't be as scary. Other classes would have their own bomb cards to try and compete with.
4 mana 7/7 give all your tunnel troggs +2 attack, ftfy
mmm you have a decent (aka blizzard) design on those cards but the problem is that literally all of your cards but the last one basically function to counter different decks, meaning a) you're only problem solving outside of the game and b) depending on the meta they will be either overpowered or completely useless.
the last one just seems bad because the only deck that plays a shitload of spells and THEN plays minions is rogue, and it does all of that on one turn not 2
5:50 best reynad
that is the reynad i like :>
Me too.
Lol @5:50
@6:50
LMAO
why not just flip the phone on silent
SALT that's why
Hahaha, gotta love reynad.
These discussion videos are way better than the same old "Reynad gets fucked by RNG" videos we see every few days. Would like to see more of them :)
I'd like to see more positional effects. Maybe a battlecry that deals 1 damage to a minion and then 3 damage to the minion on its left. Or a spell that destroys the left most minion. Just cards with cool ways to interact with the board and reward proper positioning.
Ew. I think positioning is hard and you shouldn't need to care about it if you don't want to imo. Possibly make it a class-specific thing - eg give hunter more cards like powershot and explosive shot but not other classes so that you have to think about it versus hunter but not other classes.
On actually doing it, I think anything that punishes opponent for bad positioning is going to be hard to make without being too bad if opponent plays well or too good if they play badly, or else it just won't introduce meaningful counterplay a significant amount of the time.
Siveure I'd rather have a card that was op against bad players/mediocre against good players than a 3 mana 3/2 battlecry: flip a coin if heads you win the game.
+CrazedHamster99 they likely aren't going to introduce cards which punish newer or worse players, considering that that is their target market. Although I do like the idea
I don't think there is that much potential. All it does is introduce some additional "rules" to placing. There can't be more than "left", "right" "adjacent", "not adjacent" and maybe "l/r most". Kind of pointless if everyone aims to clear their opponents board each turn anyways.
I totally agree on the idea of positioning being elevated in importance. Players have difficulty with positioning because it so rarely matters. The time between being punished for ignoring positioning and having another opportunity to consider it nowadays usually has 4 or 5 yoggs between. If positioning potentially mattered in every match-up then it could be an integral part of the game.
Imagine a card that destroys the right most minion for both players. Shaman and Paladin would use their hero powers to counter that card in situations where tempo might encourage them not to. This kind of mechanic is not that hard to understand if it is present on a sizable fraction of the useful cards in the game and shows up in more than 1% of matches.
Just thought I'd point out that karazhan did have a good card that fits what reynoodle explained, Ivory knight is good because u can somewhat counterplay it due to how much it heals from the card it discovers, so the options of what they could've taken are limited based on this (Ex. +1 heal is a secret, +10 is Anyfin, etc.). So maybe they should make more cards like this?
ivory knight is a fantastic card. my fav from the set, not saying much tho, crap expansion
Not really. I have taken anyfin SO many times when I had less than 10 dmg. So in ANY scenario where you take a cars that heals more hp than you have lost you give the other player Zero information.
Period.
in that scenario thay have to take that into consideration. obviously if it heals for full, let's say 6, they know it is a card that is 6 mana+. So it does give some info, just less. So I understand what ur saying but Zero is an exaggeration. But regardless, what I'm trying to say is that it's a well designed card compared to others that's takes counterplay into consideration.
right so you might consider trying to get damage on them so that if they do play ivory knight you can better judge what they take
and even if you overheal you still get information; if you heal for 3 or more you cut out all the secrets and more importantly, equality and humility.
it's exactly like the spare part situation. you have a limited amount of information and you have to problem solve in order to narrow down what you can play around
Good stuff. Nice to see you putting more effort into this kinda content, not many players who've got the experience and insight into CCGs that you seem to have. Always interesting to hear you talking about this stuff.
I think white knight is pretty good, because it's limited to spells and you can narrow it down by mana costs.
heya like the actual video videos :)
Very enjoyable :)
:)
:^)
q8)
I'd like a "new" card effect, which lets you see your opponents hand/one card of it.
That itself makes counterplay in that round somewhat possible.
Kinda like mind vision?
I'd love a card that let you saw what the total mana cost of your opponents hand is its added together
If they have fewer cards it becomes more accurate. Could lead to getting awesome reads on your opponent.
Might be a little too much math, might be boring idk
+Ayush Kumar Not like mind vision, cuz you already know the opponent has a coin. It would need to be a neutral minion that when played you can see your opponent's hand for that turn.
Magic already has cards that let you see your opponent's hand for more or less free. (like one mana look at your opponent's hand, draw a card)
And guess what. Those cards are not considered very good. So it's not that big of a difference to introduce this to hearthstone. What hearthstone needs is actual hand disruption.
Those cards aren't good? What do you mean? gitaxian probe is one of the best cards in the game LOL
Take a drink every time Reynad says "Swashbuckler" instead of "Swashburglar", but make sure you update your last will and testament first.
I love these videos where you talk about game mechanics. I genuinely enjoy hearing your thoughts about design. it's really cool.
I guess good counterplay card example could be say Sylvannas, makes your opponent do weird shit as to prevent her from stealing strong shit
i thyink the best example of a card which is exactly the angle blizz should be taking on counterplay is the rogue card "deadly fork"
now this is not an amazing card, its pretty mediocre, the reason i think its exactly the angle blizz should take as far as counterplay is concerned is because it is a reasonable minion that puts a card into the layer hand which the oponent knows. when a rogue plays the fork early their opponent knows that they have a 3 attack weapon in hand and has the choice to play around that, and i think more cards like this would be great, cards with deathrattles or battlecries that have powerfull but delayed and predictable outcomes
another example of this sort of thing might be a minion that when played regardless if the minionsurvives or not at the start of your NEXT turn has an effect, because of the delay this effect can be quite powerfull but at the same time it tells the oponent a turn in advance of its happening, meaning they can set up a board or play cards in a way they think will best deal with that delayed effect.
another example of a "similar" sort of thing would probebly be ivory knight. it has a strong effect and while it doesnt draw a specific card it tells the opponent the mana cost of the drawn card giving them room to play around it, say if they picked a 5 mana card you know its most likely either the "draw a card deal its damage" or the "double a minions attack" card
Here's an example of one custom card similar to Molten Giant, since Molten Giant was also a really good example of counterplay in Hearthstone (before its nerf) and Arcane Golem doesn't come anywhere close to it.
www.hearthcards.net/cards/2c22b619.png
If your opponent's control Warlock decks runs this, then you know to try to keep your opponent above 9 life so they cant tap then play this to heal to 15 and summon a 7/4.
www.hearthcards.net/cards/e4b1fb7d.png
Another example with this card. it's effect is a reverse Chrommagus that forces your opponent to spam their draw cards before turn 8 (which in the current meta may not be that impressive but in a slower meta this could be a real threat).
www.hearthcards.net/cards/540567ee.png
An example of an early game Dragon card that can swing the board against aggressive decks in a non RNG way; now aggressive decks, if they know the opponent is running this, will have to trade their 1-drops early or save their stickier 1-drops or risk getting punished by this (especially with the coin).
Hope you enjoy the 3 examples. Credit to StarryD for the designs (all on Hearthcards.net)
Here's some neat ideas that would probably be fun and bring far more thinking and planning into each game as well as promote thinking how to counter your opponent by knowing and anticipating their moves. There's far too many to list, but here's some examples
Requires:
New mechanic "Peek" - A card in your opponent's hand is revealed and stays displayed "face up" to you until your next turn.
Basic Peeking:
Deathrattle: "Peek" at the amount of cards on top of your opponent's deck equal to the cost of the card that destroyed this minion.
High Cost Spell/Legendary Battlecry: Both players see each other's hands and pick 1 card to take from their opponent's hand into their own.
Battlecry: "Peek" at an opponent's placed secret.
Legendary Effect: When this card is drawn, "Peek" at your opponent's entire hand.
Inspire: "Peek" at a card in your opponent's hand
Aggressive Peeking:
Deathrattle: "Peek" at an opponent's card. Deal damage to a random enemy equal to its cost.
Battlecry: "Peek" at an opponent's card. If it's a spell, gain 2 mana crystals this turn.
Legendary Battlecry: "Peek" at an opponent's card. If it's a monster, summon a copy of it on your side of the board.
Secret: Activates when your opponent has 4 cards in their hand and plays one of them. "Peek" at the middle card of the remaining 3 cards, the cost of the other two cards is increased by 1.
Spell: Shuffle a 3/4 Snitch into your opponent's deck. When drawn, it is summoned on your opponent's side, but you get to see the next 3 cards they will draw.
Counter Peeking:
(3) 2/4 - If your opponent has peeked at your cards last turn, gain +2/+1.
Minion Effect: Your opponent can not use "Peek" cards.
Battlecry: Hide every card that's currently being "peeked" at in your hand, and gain 2 armor for each. The order of the cards in your hand is then shuffled.
Secret: Activates when your cards are being peeked at. Peek at 2 cards on top of your opponent's deck.
Spell: Reduce the cost of all cards in your hand that are currently being peeked at by 2.
And my favorite:
(8) Emissary of Blinding Light | Legendary
[8 | 8 ]
Legendary Minion Effect: This card can only be summoned if your opponent "peeks" at it (in your hand or deck). The enemy hero can no longer "Peek" for the rest of the game, and receives 1 damage for every card they've seen by "peeking" during this game.
RIP whoever took the time to read all of this.
Really enjoyed this video, thank your for the upload :)
I would enjoy more videos like this. Keep up with the good work and try to stay sweet ;)
The Phone beep salt lol
Reynad can you title these under the same name and put them in a playlist? It'll be easier for keeping track of all of these in the future! This one and "Micro Decisions.." could be title Hearthstone Philosophy: ...
Wow! Thanks Frodan! Looks like your appearance on Value Town was noticed by all.
I agree with you on the Swashburgler (and Burgle), and agree that this is a problem and has been since Blizzard printed Unstable Portal.
I disagree more on the specific portals, Moonglave might be the strongest but overall there is much more consistent range than Unstable Portal ever had.
I understand that the new Portals can be annoying (Firelands being common is dumb), but there's a certain point where RNG is pushed and a certain point where it's not. For some people any RNG is considered pushed because of exceptional outcomes. A more balanced approach considers additional factors, such as your definition of "ranges". Another way to look at this is to consider the ability of a card to outright win a game based off RNG (Yogg).
Magic has a similar RNG based mechanic based off "Reveal the top card of your library, then........". The reason this isn't overpowered in Magic is simply Lands.
If Hearthstone added an additional cardtype similar to energy in Pokemon for example, requiring you to have a "Powerup" in hand to activate an effect on the board, it would be design space that would include greater skill in deckbuilding, requiring calculating ratios and probabilities, and be far more balanced than "win the game off of this diceroll" RNG.
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD ITS SwashburGLar not SwashbuCKlar
I think the best way to add counterplay is with versatile cards. They could make more of the Druid cards use the choose mechanic, and they could make more discover cards. Also, they could make more cards like ice lance and revenge that do different things in different situations. I'd also like to see another Arch-Thief Rafaam type card where you discover a card from 3 known options. Imagine a neutral 6 mana 4/4 that discovers a 0 mana: gain 8 armor; a 0 mana: draw 2 cards; or a 0 mana: deal 4 damage. You get to choose the best option depending on how your opponent is playing, and I think it's strong enough to see a ton of play.
I actually enjoy the fact that you used in game examples of the good RNG you're talking about as opposed to showing a custom card. It gives those who have faced things like Xaril a much better understanding since we've seen it in play. Although custom cards can give a good idea of the topic, they don't give the same understanding you would playing against it in an actual game
There are a few options i can think of to add more counterplay to Hearthstone.
For example: *2 Mana spell* - _Reveal one random card in your opponents hand. Draw a card._ And to add a little bit to the mindgame, your opponent doesn't know which card he showed you.
Well said, Reynad. Your MTG, and gaming background in general really, shows in your discussions on strategy and balance. I do imagine blizzard will slowly introduce ideas similar to this in time as to keep the game interesting for longer.
5:53 MVP whoever was texting him
He is right on soooo many levels. I'm thinking about the same thing after I lost in a fatigue war yesterday.
I planned everything I counted the cards I had the advantage I calculated the fatige and I made the decision I have to play out in the next round Monkey to win the game.
----Than My opponent played out a Black Knight from a Shifter Zeus what made Prince Malcehezaar----
Reynad I really respect you, congratulations
Hey Reynad, been playing for some time now Elder Scrolls Legends. I would like to point out that the game has a really cool mechanic that I prefer to MtG's spam about using instants, it's called prophecy. Not sure if you are familiar with it, will explain anyway. So there are cards that have the keyword prophecy on them. Players start at 30 life (btw everyone can gain health more than 30 in this game as well) and 5 runes. Runes break for every 5 hp lost, at 25-20-15-10-5, and when they do you draw a card.
If that card is a prophecy one, you can play it for free at that same moment. This mechanic is really cool and works really fine since you 1) most likely know which prophecy cards each deck runs so you can avoid smorcing, 2) really can't just smorc and give the opponent that big of a card advantage easily and 3) have to think about hitting face as a second layer of strategy (can be punished really bad if you play a huge minion first then attack and opponent draw a destroy creature prophecy card for example).
What's your opinion about that mechanic?
PS : deck's size is 50 though and limit per card is 3. Still in HS it could mean less card draw slots, more cards to actually play.
I would love to see blizzard tap into the knowledge/skill/influence of popular streamers that take the time to discuss concepts like this to improve the game, and who act as "ambassadors" for large portions of the player community. Specifically, I've seen Reynad and Kibler spend a fair amount of time discussing core concepts related to game design that I think ring true for a lot of players. I'm sure there are other streamers who do this as well, these are just the two that I follow that I've seen discuss game design in this way. The design team may well take these discussions/videos into account, but it'd be great to see them address these concerns in a major, public way. I think these folks bring up some common concerns and take the time to discuss them in depth and to relate these concerns to game design concepts in a way that could be very valuable to the hearthstone design team, and it'd be great to see the folks at Blizzard respond to these concerns directly. Again, my knowledge is somewhat limited, but I know that Kibler at least has an extensive background in game design, and I think Reynad has a great mind for it as well. Please, please keep doing what you do, I love seeing you break down these concepts and feel like I learn more every time I watch one of these videos.
TL;DR Streamers like Reynad and Kibler have a lot of valuable ideas about game design that I'd love to see Blizzard incorporate or at least acknowledge in a major public way.
Name: Random card that I just made up.
Class: Priest
Cost: 3
Stats: 3/3
Text: Battlecry: If your hero has taken at least three damage during your opponent's last turn add a random card to your hand that restores health.
random :))))
Oh that is really cool. That is actually really fucking cool good idea blizzard should take some suggestions from fans. Put this on reddit Under /r/hearthstone
+Veochi please don't, put it on /r/customhearthstone
Veochi Meh I think it's pointless to try to make blizzard notice custom cards, since even a Hearthstone Dev sees this card there is a 0% chance of anything remotely close being added to the game because bilzzard Devs seem to not like to make what fans already did.
The exact Fandral card is one of the top three posts of all time on /r/customhearthstone
I miss cards like Loatheb. Sure he was in almost every deck, but he added counter play. Mana wraith on the other hand isn't good, but would it be played with better base stats etc?
Edit: Also props for the Xaril mention, it's an excellent rng card.
Andrey This was a great video. You should do more videos like this where you talk about game design and core elements.
Sup reynad just want a early comment currently watching vid its going good so far keep it up man
6 mana 4/7 faceless seer effect: show the mana cost of all cards in the opponents hand
Just as ivory knight introduced some counterplay in limiting the discovered cards to be spells with a mana cost equal to the heal value, knowing the mana cost limits the possibility each card has and allows some counterplay through that knowledge. I thought about having it be all spells but that seemed a bit too powerful for the statline as it tells you not only which are spells, and pretty solidly what they are based on class spells at that cost.
It also allows counter counterplay by messing with the mana costs, eg emporer thorizan, ethereal peddler.
Positioning cards also promote counterplay. Even though they aren't played often it is still good gameplay to play around Cone of Cold, Betrayal, Explosive Shot, Powershot. There's even more complexity if you're playing as something like Zoo or Shaman with your own positional buffs and you have to weight the advantages and disadvantages of both. More positional spells and buff minions could bring a lot of richness to gameplay.
Gonna pop my idea before a little rant paragraph: Someone remember Wee Spellstopper? Everyone knows dire wolf alpha and now especially flametongue totem. Really simple and good counterplay is moving the opponents board around. "Randomize your opponents side" or "switch two opponents minions places". +It can be played around, by not playing your wolf or flametongue until you get a good trade with it (+Betrayal viability yay).
Other idea: Swapping card texts. Works insanely good for both uses, countering opponent and making comboes yourself. Want to trade in sylvanas but there is nothing to steal? Swap her text with a ghoul on your board. Opponent has a large taunt protecting a high attack minion? Swap their texts and kill the high attack minion. In my opinion there is so much possibilities with this. Hope Blizzard at least looks into these two ideas.
These widespread rng cards have always been the most hated cards in Hearthstone. Unstable Portal, Piloted shredder etc. Just narrowing down these random would help a lot. For example if shredder read "drop a random 2-mana mech" you would when killing it try to have 1dmg and 2dmg separate prepared, so that you can kill annoy, minibot, or a flat 3 for warper, chugga and so forth. While all of these were considered insane outcomes from shredder, and the card liek it as would be busted, you would know what kinds of things you need after you kill it. You might also try to gamble on it being a 2/3 instead of a divine shield mech, or try to dig for a blood knight before killing it to counter it. This kind of direction on cards is what I personally would like to see from the cards (just don't make them retarded like shredder). The Doomsayer to Millhouse manastorm spread is what makes the card so annoying.
Damn, can't wait for more of these types of videos!
This is also the reason why I like playing Control Warrior. You're not just putting minions on the board, you wait for your opponent to make a play and you counterplay that accordingly with your own cards/removal. If you know your opponent still has a Edwin Van Cleef in hand you know you should save your execute for it.
5:50 xD classic reynad
I like random effects when they are known. My favorite card in the game is shadow boxer because it is an effect that is random, but no so random as to be game defining, that also telegraphs that it is coming, and helps carve out the priest's class identity as the 'utility board battler.'
Stuff like flame juggler is really annoying because it comes out of nowhere and can create a huge swing in the early game and from then on is just a standard creature. It only has the real function to wreck the curve, where as shadow boxer introduces actual risk vs reward analysis because your opponent can do multiple things to react to the threat even though it is random such as trying to pad their board with a lot of minions to spread damage, avoiding playing low health minions, or prioritizing boxer over other creatures on your board.
Also, Firey Bat, while still annoying as an early game RNG swing creature, is at least better than flame juggler because the bat is a known threat. Out of hand RNG attached to a creature I think does bad things to the game because it creates too much of a swing scenario.
i think with their recent brawl that had a card that effected portal cast costs they are testing for things like enchantments like in magic. losing a potential minion space for something that can effect hand/boardstate is interesting. They could build a whole bunch of things like this 1-2 for each class, and some shared cards that could buff the effect via battle cry or death rattle, and of course things that can disrupt/destroy those enchantments.
drawing certain specific cards from your deck that are necessary for strategy. For example, if you make a hunter deck built around lock n load, have a card that can put lock n load into your hand. For example the card could be a minion with a battle cry: draw a 2 mana card from your deck.
Reynoodle is right. That is it.
I'm not sure of any examples but I think it would be great to make minion positioning more relevant. Playing around betrayal and explosive shot etc. You don't often see these cards played anywhere but arena but if blizzard were to print more playable cards that could exploit bad minion positioning we would see them more often thus encouraging more active counterplay with minion placement.
I see so many people do this poorly eg playing tuskar totemic to the right of their minions instead of the left in case of flametongue totem. I would like to be able to punish this more than i can now.
09:20 This was my whole gripe with the top-3 tavern brawl and the mill mechanic, there's no opponent needed for mill druids. And all that's need to fix it is to do what every card game with discard mechanics does allow the *target* to choose which cards to discard, or place the discard phase at the end of the turn.
@reynad
I know you'll probably not see this but have you thought of doing a collaborate with someone to try and brainstorm up new card concepts? As a rough idea think of the one, two or three most problematic cards, scenarios in hearthstone and suggest a few counter cards? Maybe such as how you talked about withholding flamestrike, having a card that say in some way can view your opponents hand to see what you have to play against.
The mana, the stats, and the class are all variables but the concepts are what are truly important as they are the first step in this forward movement for hearthstone.
Around 9:30 this made a good amount of sense, nice video
Amazingly put together and plain out great!
I think that ivory knight is a good exemple of good/healthy rng. Not only you discover a card, which is way better strategywise than "spawn a X cost minion" or "put a random spell in your hand", but also your opponent can more easily guess what you have (not mentioning that this RNG doesn't immediatly affect the board, like Reynad said). So why not simply showing your opponent the cost of the card you got from babling book / other cards alike ? Even if it's a thin step towards the good direction, it might me good enough to bring more counterplay potential to these cards.
I VERY OFTEN pick a spell from the knight that heals me for more hp I had lost. Giving them zero information. So not really.
Extremely easy solution, print more cards like Betrayal and Explosive Shot. In arena, we have to play around those cards all the time. Positioning is a Hearthstone mechanic that hasn't been played around with much besides from the classic set.
I think printing more cards that interact with your opponent's hand would be nice for counter play. We've seen "Your opponent draws X cards" effects, minions that get buffs or discounts based on your opponent's hand, and as Reynad mentioned, cards like Divine Favor. We've also seen cards that pull out your opponent's minions, like Ancestor's Call and Deathlord. Personally, I've always like the idea of eliminating key cards by milling them or yanking them onto the battlefield prematurely. I'd like the devs to explore that more, and I'm still trying to decide if introducing effects that discard opponent's cards would be good or bad for the game.
One thing I've just noticed is that most of the hand interactions that exist currently stand in favor of aggro decks. Would be nice to see something like a reverse clockwork giant: 3 mana 8/8 costs 1 more for each card in your opponent's hand.
Great video. The worst feeling in Hearthstone is losing a game when you had no possible way of countering your opponent. Especially prevalent going second when your opponent just curves out. Sure, there's variance and unlucky draws, but it seems far too frequent that I find myself after a loss knowing I couldn't have done anything to improve my chances of winning.
They need more disruptive cards that force a response. A persistent effect on a minion like "players can't draw extra cards" or "minions with 2 or less attack can't attack". Disruptive one-time effects would be good as well. "Deathrattle: your opponent cannot play minions next turn." "Inspire: Your opponent's spells cost 2 more next turn."
Something like a Neutral 1 drop with 1/2 stats and stealth. Gain 2 health each time your opponent plays a spell. Directly disrupts Flamewaker and inhibits spell spamming for Yogg. Priest can capitalize on that with Confusion (?) or Inner Fire, and neutrally with Crazed Alchemist. Still removable with AoE--even if you only run 1 damage AoE, just wait for spell power before blowing it.
I have to disagree about Babbling book. It gives you a spell from the same class (Mage), so the pool of cards you expect isn't getting bigger. Except if we have stacked our minds to the meta spells, but again the game becomes more interesting. Great mindset in the rest of the video!
Lotheb and the hero power cards are great
EDIT : I enjoy ivory knight in design, in that it "shows" by heal-ish the card mana chosen.
I'd like to see more cards like nozdormu. Where it forces the other player to play faster except cheaper versions where the effect may last for only one turn.
More cards that fuck you when your connection is bad? No thanks
lmao if you're internet is so shit that it can't run hearthstone then i suggest you stop playing it
:P
It's not my fault blizzard's servers are constantly shitting the bed
true you have point
if reynad takes all of his own lessons to heart in the creation of the bazaar then we'll be in for a treat. one of the smartest guys in the scene.
If you want examples in Magic about role changes, watch matches of Jeskai Black (khans of tarkir-Oath of the Gatewatch standard). Even in the same matchup against the same opponent, the way the games play out vary.
We need "If" minions that change their attribute under certain circumstances. For example you have a minion that has taunt but "If" the opponent plays a minion with wind fury then taunt changes to +1 spell damage." these potential changes would be known to both players.
Awesome video. I can't underline enough how good it is.
I would love swashbuckler to be something like "add a random card to your hand from your opponent's class with the same mana cost as the amount of mana you have left". That way, its not a huge range of cards you can get from swashbuckler, and you can pretty easily figure out what your opponent could have gotten. That would also add a level of strategy to playing the swashbuckler. Do I hero power first to get a 5 mana card instead of a 7 mana card? It would add a whole lot more to the card instead of just immediately playing it on turn one.
There have been times and will be again where some classes have ZERO spells of a certain cost.
Play it at 10 mana....who has a 9 cost spell but Druid
Insightful video. Makes me think about face-only damage effects like Curse of Rafaam and Sinister Strike, versus cards like Fireball and Darkbomb, which can double as removal. I wonder if there's any good way to address the former, since once your opponent draws the card, there's no way to prevent you from taking the damage so long as they have the mana to pay for the cost. But while you have a board that threatens lethal, your opponent can toss down the Fireball to play around your lethal and give them a chance to win. Not sure where to go from here, but just wanted to type my thoughts out.
What I would want, is for someone to organize a small tournament consisting of the best control/heavy skill based players using only decks that require a lot of decision making. Now that would give us a lot of enjoyment and a lot of cool shit we can watch, instead of just seeing someone get run down by an aggro Shaman or whatever.
I agree with everything you say except I don't mind Portals so much. Since it dosen't trigger battlecry, its basically just summon a pile of stats.
Do you think that if the cards from Swash and Babbling were revealed it would be better? Maybe 1 mana discount to compensate? Would love to know your thoughts.
one small presentation tip for these types of videos, you should look at the camera most of the time rather than the computer screen so that it makes it so that you are looking at us rather than down below us.
loving the videos though, keep it up :)
I think blizzard should introduce spells that last over time to help with counterplay. Not a secret where its on the board and waits for the enemy to move, but something like "do 8 damage to a random enemy minion in 3 turns". Both players would know it would happen, but it could be used to stop streamlining combat and introduce a way to play ahead of time.
How about things like "Add a random card to your hand that your opponent played this game"?
Add the last card your opponent played would be awesome
@@dylangibson6349 they did it pog
@7:40
>>2016
>>druid having 4 mana on turn 4
shiggy diggy
An improvement to Swashburglar would be to show the Mana cost of the generated card. Narrow down what you need to play around, but still have a random aspect to every game.
12:39-12:52 Yeah, this is what I love about this game, the feeling of out playing your opponent through figuring out his cards.
I feel like control cards that would reveal your opponents hand (and maybe make them discard) could be good for the game. However, I feel like it might have to exclude legendaries? If you force an opponent to discard a card they can only have a 1 of, that could ruin their game plan pretty quickly. That and it'd be have to be pretty highly costed.
You have a surf board on the wall directly in front of a painting.
So today in arena, a rogue got flamestrike from Swashburglar. Completely agreed here.
5:50 the best example of counterplay
In yugioh when you search for a card you have to show what you took. I imagine that would make cards like thoughtsteal and swashburglar less stressful to at least know what they got since they're going to play it anyways. At least I think
Great vid man. Lost it at 5:46
10:43 your obviously forgetting counter play like silence, or just preventing the minion from dieing. Its the battlecrys like the 1 drop swashbuckler that involves no counter play. I really like huckster in that you can predictably play against it (most of the time) and it still keeps every single game fresh. I love cards like that.
Hey reynad, I'm really enjoying these videos. Keep it up!
Thank you for putting into words what I couldn't.
I'm so frustrated right now with hunter/shaman/tempo mage game plans (less with tempo mage as there actually is some choice with flamewaker timings and such). A lot of the ladder is "Did I survive the linear gameplan of the opponents deck? No? k. I lost." *or* "I'm also playing a linear deck. Let's see who draws better this game, because both of our decks pretty much only want us to play on curve/get tempo early and finish with attrition like doomhammer/hunter hero power". I rarely see games that are super fun like c'thun warrior mirrors where it becomes about techs, greed, fatigue planning and whatnot. Or murloc paladin where it becomes about planning around inevitability of murlocs and how you're going to survive or win before that time.
I guess the game has just gotten to the point where I want more out of it in terms of skill level/counterplay/deck building and it has actually gone a little bit backwards into making shaman have the same 28 shaman cards, Hunter playing to call of the wild on curve (even in the lock n load/yshaarj cheese decks, you do this), and tempo mage either pushing your shit in or playing yogg and winning off of the random shit it does. Maybe I've just grown out of the game, or maybe the game has actually gotten worse.
What do you guys think? I'm genuinely curious about other views (especially people who started in open beta or earlier like I did).
PS: When rogue turns into rng stealing, it's kind of a bad omen. Combo, high-skill deck moving the wrong direction if you ask me.
theres just not enough cards that encourage your opponent to pass their turn. the few neutral options that the game had to encourage this are slyvannas/dr.boom/doomsayers to prevent optimal/value trades. instead of playing minions that do this i think blizzard should implement cards that affect your opponent's terrain. Lets say shaman gets this card that turns your opponents board into a burning lava terrain. you get choose a friendly minion and mark it for the effect. for the next 5 turns all minions on the enemy side of the board take 1 damage at the beginning of their turn. the mark is invisible to the enemy and they have directly target the minion for the effect to stop. if it dies to boardclears or random rng the marked target blows up the entire board.
i dunno i always felt control warrior mirrors always came down to who got Justicar going first.
6:38
Silvermoon Portal.
I agree to an extent. But, there's a card for just about anything. That they're being played can be very unlikely, as everyone just follows the meta. Games like MTG, each card does resolve before any counter play is involved, but if you don't have a card to play around it that's how it is. The counter play and proper usage of cards is the difference between a good and bad player, and sometimes you just won't draw anything. Hearthstone is just a children's easymode card game in which everything is scaled down
Aw man, I wanted to watch a fun Reynad video, but instead he just gave me homework.
I think Shifting Shade is a great card at this point. For example, i play a lot of freeze mage and when i facing this card, im trying not to kill it untill i drew both my Ice Blocks, because Priest can play it, survive my burst and then heal himself, so i cant go for alexstrasza plan nor otk plan
Adding stuff like 9 damage 1 mana weapons and 4 mana 7/7 was really pushing it this year for me. The way the game can have more counterplay for me is to actually print more cards that have on board effects so that trading doesn't become optional for a few classes. Having bodies just for pushing damage on your enemy is one of the biggest problems I have with hearth right now.
I like to build up hordes of little minions, trade them and power them up to see how my opponent reacts to them. It's why I love hunter right now and used to like warlock. But discard lock is just so stupid... Here, let me play 3 cards and draw 2 with just a single card! >.>
Really valid points - impressed
What do you think about the randomness of thoughtsteal? Large pool of outcomes, but the opponent knows all the possibilities and usually can narrow the cards picked fairly quickly (compared to swashburgler, etc).
nice vid, reynad ftw , definitely in my top 5 hearthstone players
Ivory Knight is a good example, you know the cost of what they picked and it is not completely random either, they get a choice from discover.
Other honerable mentions would be Loatheb and Chillmaw
Thanks for the analysis. You got a new subscriber.
15:39 Naga sea witch value???