I made an error in this video and said that the Singxer SU-6 accepted a master clock input. In actual fact, it provides a masterclock OUTPUT if your DAC accepts it (e.g. Aune X1S GT). Apologies for the error!!
This is fascinating, especially the results. I appreciate how many different tests and things that you put the equipment through, always in depth, and it’s good to anticipate the questions everyone has. Thanks again.
I have owned an SU-6 for about a year now and based on this video I just upgraded to a regulated linear power supply and the difference in audio quality was amazing - so thanks for reminding me that the SQ improves with a good PSU. BTW anyone who thinks that "digital is digital" and therefore different cables or a different Power supply or a DDC cannot make a difference simply does not understand digital audio. Digital signals are actually analogue electrical signals that carry digitally coded information. These analogue signals can also have analogue noise of various kinds and it is this noise that can disrupt the operation of the DAC and give poor sound - it's simple, with digital just as with analogue, everything makes a difference.
Nice that you gave a shout-out to A British Audiophile. I really like him. He's the quintessential British gentleman and his reviews are fair and comprehensive. As are yours! He covers more hifi than head-fi the latter of which is my interest. Kudos to you for acknowledging other content creators.
loved the intro and the vibe of the P4S channel... We need more of this attitude in life and less of the alternative. I am a huge fan of DDCs and have owned the Singxer SU2 and now a SU6. I've always wanted to try a Matrix Spdif 2 and now a Gustard U18. For me owning a Holo Spring KTE the USB is a terrible implementation by I2S is fantastic. My streamer and pc sources do not have I2S output so the DDC is a great way to improve the signal path in my chain. Other Dacs may have better spdif and USB inputs. I've also thought about investing in a better reclocker as well to improve the timing domain.
That's interesting to hear about the USB implementation on the Spring being subpar. It's a shame I didn't have the DDCs here for the Spring review to try I2S.
I have been using similar devices in my system for years as my older was doesn't accept usb. Also have experience with usb regenerators and they work to great effect in my systems, headphone and 2 channel. One thing I have noticed is getting better and better linear ppwer supplies to feed them improves the sound further. I have considered a jplay usb card or one of their network cards. I have used their jplay software over the years. Some of the best sound out of a generic pc but is not the most user friendly. Thanks for mentioning hans channel. I enjoy his reviews !
I'd rate the Jcat card as comparable with the Singxer SU-6 so if you're just after a quality USB output then that's the way to go, but the SU-6 provides greater versatility (as long as you don't need a USB connection to any of your DACs)
I love you how you use dog pics as part of the introduction for a controversial topic in the hobby. Made me laugh lol. I haven't really explored usb bridges yet, and neither am I looking to, but I enjoyed the vid nonetheless!
Great video! Does anyone know if the MCLK SEL (master clock select) switch on the back of the U90 should be set to 22/24 or 45/49, which is more optimal? I'm planning to connect the U90 to the D90LE via I2S, much thanks.
Hello there ! Great video once again. I have a questions unrelated. If you had to choose only one and money wasn't a factor, which would it be, Meze Elite or Susvara?
Definitely the Elite. The Susvara is technically superior in some ways, but the Elite isore enjoyable for me across a wide range of genres and source devices. It also has two pad options to help tune its sound should you wish to.
@@PassionforSound thank you Lachlan ! I was just about to press the buy button on the Susvara and sell my Elite 🤣 I must say , I agree with you , I've auditioned the susvara multiple times and they seem to be very genre specific headphones. Loved then with Jazz , hated them with Hip Hop. Elite just sounds amazing with everything. Phew thanks alot mate.
Good video as always Lachlan. I think we've seen enough proof from enough places now to agree that digital is not just digital. We understand a lot about the world, but our brains are still mostly a mystery to us. Ten years ago, if you had told someone that a human being could tell the difference between a 320 Hz display and a 500 Hz display, they would have laughed at you. I believe the same is true for audio, and its exciting to think that there is so much for us still to learn about how our brains work! In saying that though, I do wonder where the high price tag is coming from here on these DDCs. Surely such a device could be sold for much cheaper than this?
Based on the fact that I heard benefits from the SU-6 over the U90, I think it's like any device where (in most cases) you get what you pay for. There are cheaper DDCs/USB bridges on the market like the Topping D10S, but I found that degraded the sound so I think the price equates to the quality of components (including the clocks) and therefore the quality of the output.
It confuses me that you heard a sound quality degradation in your test @ 16:13 using a good quality Supra spdif to BF2 from both DDCs (SU-6 stock power supply). If interconnects made the difference how do you explain it? Was the Supra not good enough to keep the sound quality on par when compared to direct connection PC-to-BF2? The U90 cannot use a LPS so if the latter is critical then the U90 cannot maintain at least the same sound quality when compared to not using it? Thanks.
Every digital interconnect (other than optical) is still sending an analog signal that just represents the digital data, but it means that the interconnects can influence (filter) the sound. I'm still seeking a clear answer as to how this occurs so I can't explain it precisely yet.
I’ve used many cables ranging from $0-700 for my SU6 I2S setup and the best cable for me was a Belkin high speed cable, specifically from the Apple Store as the ones they sell at other stores are slightly different. It sounds basically the same as Audioquests higher end cables.
@@PassionforSound curious which ones you tried specifically? I’ve got an Audioquest Forest (really short) that I’m using but haven’t experimented with others yet.
I have the Gustard DDC U18 in the mail, hopefully it proves good, or ill be exchanging for a better power conditioner or sine wave battery. Do you regularly use one now, or w/ certain dacs only. I upgraded my Pangea USB cable a while back to the upgraded Pangea USB cable with split usb-a ends, i use it to get 5v usb bus power to the cable from a P50 lps or ipower smpsbi nstead of it being derived from my pc motherboard, this makes my sound come across more analog, so I hope this DDC will do more than just galvanic isolation, which Im hoping the clock crystal timing does.
I think you'll be happy. I use the Singxer SU-6 constantly so I can run two quality USB audio feeds from my JCat USB cards and then another range of outputs (I2S, Coax, AES, etc.) from the SU-6. The DDCs (if they are good and the Gustard should be) definitely improve the overall refinement thanks to better signal clocking it seems
@@PassionforSound what I also find fascinating is the plug order of the devices into the mains power strip. The difference that exists between plugging in the HPA in first then the DAC second or vice versa, and Plugging my Source PC in ahead of both of them or after them or into a different power strip. I also find the providing usb bus power for the dac usb data bus sounds a little better if coming from the same power strip as the PC is plugged into vs where the dac is plugged in, better synched.
I am considering one of these since my Hegel HD25 dac is meant to have exceptional coax input. I use usb from PC, so need to good USB to Coax converter.
Have you compared DDC to hugo TT2, with and without M-scaler? Curious if this DDC devices could replace the much pricier M-scaler without missing much on the sound quality.
I have used the SU-6 with the DAVE and then the M-Scaler and it's not a replacement in any way I'm afraid. The M-Scaler is upsampling the signal using complex algorithms while the SU-6 is just translating it to a different protocol. It might clean the signal up a little, but that's all
@@PassionforSound thanks Lachlan! wasn't the answer i am hoping for, since m-scaler is too pricey for me when considered as an additional device for your DAC in the chain. DDC is also additional, but seems like you get what you paid for. Great Info!
Really enjoyed the review and I can agree with the results. I have been trying to improve my USB inputs to various DACs for some time. Changes to cables and inline USB conditioning via IFI type products have been of some benefit. However I have recently Purchased both the Topping U90 and the Gustard U18. The Improvements has been really impressive using both DDC units via I2S connections. Topping U90 into Topping D70s and Gustard U18 into Audio GD R28 R2R DAC section. Really good improvement in Audio Definition from my Desktop PC. Certainly if you have a DAC that accepts I2S then the improvement I think is worthwhile in signal Quality and there is a need to also use a good HDMI cable as well for connection between the DDC and the DAC.
I can't get iFi sample units unfortunately. As for why they don't have USB outputs on most DDCs, it's because a DDC is specifically designed to convert from USB to something else. USB purifiers and reclockers are the ones with USB to USB
I have the iFi iGalvanic which is a neat little unit that dramatically cleaned up the noise from my gaming PC into my Lyr 3 multibit dac/tube amp, because the multibit dac does not come with Schiit’s unison usb.
It's the jitter. The USB cables vary on the jitter they add. If only the USB going to the dac matters and varies that means the ddc is doing its job and eliminating noise and jitter. We are more sensitive to jitter than the noise as we can filter the noise out and it's only EMI noise and the final sound will have noise from many different sources mostly inaudible so it must be the ddc's jitter elimination via its clock.
Been using many a DDC for years within streamers I have made. and I also use the SU6, Gustard U12 + others today lf you stream via a Raspberry Pi then a DDC will make a difference IMHO (for roon endpoints for example). Good modern DACs implement USB better! Well done Passion for Sound for this video and exploring this topic😀
@@PassionforSound I'm thinking the IanCanada hardware with a PI4 will be hard to beat (it cut's out the need for a DDC) and can be built with super-caps for a rock solid voltage source. The IanCanada route will cost no more than a dedicated DDC.
I actually learned about this and not many know but yes ddc's do improve sound quality but for very interesting reasons. Without the ddc what happens is the USB takes the data package and translates it to iis (i2s) which is the native language for data to the dac. The ddc basically does this and either outputs USB or i2s with the bigger benefit being from the straight i2s output. Using the ddc fixes jitter and provides basically a USB hub that's isolated and noise free continuing out of it while a computer is extemely noisey. Also ddc's allow external clocks. People mistake that feature as something stupid because the clock is outside the dac and they think the jitter from using it would be insane but actually because it reclocks the data package and processes it with its own so that the dac can just sample and play the data at line level its perfect. And you can use a temperature controlled clock which is the best kind (lowest jitter). =)
I'd love to hear your opinion on the Gustard U18. Gustard tends to do power supplies really well and I think that could make a worthwhile difference. In my experience, I2s is a VERY worthwhile upgrade on every single DAC I've used I2s with.
@@PassionforSound will your new channel sponsorship (sorry forgot the site) allow you to get access to Gustard gear? If so the Gustard R26 dac and U18 DDC might be interesting products for your channel.
Your finding about USB cables not making any difference is strange to me because found that when I upgraded my generic USB cable to Supra Excalibur it made a very big difference to the sound of my SU6 ( feeding a Venus 2 via I2S ) Conversely, I tried an audioquest Carbon HDMI for I2S and found that I much preferred a Cheap 2 meter KabelDirekt HDMI from Amazon. However, the really interesting thing is that although the 2M KabelDirekt sound nice and musical and relaxed, Identical KabelDirekt HDMIs of 1M and 0.25M sounded progressively worse the shorter they were. ( there is a logical explanation why this might be so )
I've definitely found USB cables to make significant differences in most circumstances, but didn't find the SU-6 to be affected by the upstream cable. Maybe I should try again some time...
What do you think about the AES connection? I have the topping D70 Pro SABRE which only have aes input that would be compatible with the su-6 that I intend to purchase in a few days.
I really like AES as a connection. I like the convenience of USB, but when using other types of connections, I try to go for IIS first (if available) and then AES as my next preference
Hi my friend; you are intimately familiar with the Gungdin and subsequently bought the Pontus II. Please give me the skinney on these as this represents 2 months savings for me! I have pre-ordered the Schiit, but I am worrying the Pontus is a better choice worth saving for...can u shed light? I had the Bifrost 2 and it's lack of detail in the highs is why I sent it back and purchased the next in line as reviewers said it's 15-20% better in this regard. As always I hit the like button 4 u 2 get paid baby!
Thanks Chris! Unfortunately, I haven't yet tried the Pontus II so I can't provide a comparison, but my old Gungnir Multibit (pre Analog 2 board) was almost as good as the Qutest so I think you might have made a good decision. Lots of the R2R DACs can get a bit too smooth so if you want more bite than the BF2, a true R2R might not have been the best choice (although the Pontus II might be an exception to my other experiences)
The DDC I use has a linear psu and 2 separate gold coloured TCXOs for USB audio 2 clocking, however these boxes just seem to be jittery digital splitters. These devices should use a TCXO or an OCXO in my opinion.
Ah. I understand now - sorry for the confusion. From memory, the SU-6 uses an OXCO. I can't remember what the U90 uses. I THINK I might have mentioned it in passing on the video, but I'm not certain on that.
You might want to buy a power supply with changeable tips any have different DC barrel style connectors that can be swapped). That said, most devices use the same size and wiring config so it's pretty standard. I can't recall the specs, but it should be available on the spec sheet for the SU-6
I have the SU-6 and when I first got it, I emailed Leter (Singxer) and asked him if an LPS would be better than the original power brick and he replied "yes, if you have a very good LPS". I'm using the farad super3 with the SU-6 and prefer the aes/ebu connection into my dacs over the i2s connection.
Excellent opening! And also.. cool, I run the Musician Pegasus feeding the Burson Soloist and the Hifiman Arya SE. Have done too much research really about digital interfaces, I'll see what I end up with (right now I lean towards the Audio-GD DI-20, which actually has an inbuilt linear PSU).
The Pegasus is lovely! I've got one here now for review soonish. There are lots of great DDCs, reclockers, etc. on the market. I imagine it would be hard to choose.
@@PassionforSound Really? I don't know what to make of it. So, you'll have to rely on patrons to help out with iFi product reviews. Unfortunately, I do not own one, actually seeking to determine its usefulness from a review, so regrettably cannot assist. Thanks for always replying to my comments, I really appreciate it.
My friend as much as I love your passion and honesty if you want to make a point when it comes to pursuing real results/quality of a device class you should do it BLIND and record it. I don't even suggest you to go through all that rigid academic setting to do true ABX tests. Just get yourself a blindfold, a switcher and a friend to switch it for you and then you review your own results. Anyway, even if you dismiss what I said it's fine, I love your format as long as you keep being real to your hearing and opinion.
I've done blind testing in the past for my own interest - to test how it influenced what I could hear/not hear, etc. And it only proved to me that while blind listening does remove potential sources of bias, it also introduces a different problem where the brain becomes more focussed on trying to find differences and sometimes that gets in the way of actually understanding the gear. For a reviewer like me, blind tests actually make me a less accurate listener. To add to that, there are multiple ways to combat biases. These are just assumptions and expectations so you can break them by testing against them. For example, if I know that I am likely to expect a more expensive product to be better, I can do a comparison listening test (after my general listening) with the specific goal of proving to myself that it's not better than a cheaper device. That way, I'm looking specifically for reasons it's not better and that creates an opposite expectation to my original bias. If I succeed, then bias had me preferring the product initially. If I fail then it really is better. Finally, keep in mind that at this point in my audio journey, I am incredibly happy with my existing gear and setup so I don't "need" anything to be better or worse so I rarely have expectations going into a listening test and, if I do, I use the approach above. Thanks for watching and commenting 🙂
@@PassionforSound Fair point. I don't expect anyone's hearing to be flawless and consistent at all times so I still lean in the preposition that only proper ABX test can tell us the whole picture (but I admit I might be biased due to my background in academic environments). I respect your solution and your ability to be truthful to what you experience and to me that has been a big selling point of your channel. Keep delivering interesting videos my friend and keep your passion alive I know it could be exhausting or repetitive at times :).
Thanks CE. The blind, ABX approach is great when you're controlling for a single variable, like in medicine, but there are two many variables that can be altered in music (timbre, frequency response, soundstage size, image focus, etc.) so it makes trying to control for a single variable a bit of a fool's errand. Thank you for discussing it respectfully and for your support of the channel!
i'm brazilian and actually don't speak English so well. so if anyone can help: the conclusion is that use a DDC with the schiit bifrost 2 didn't has much improvement because the schiit usb input is good enough? in my case: I already used my PC with normal USB output > schiit bifrost 2/64 > singxer SA-1. so, for example, the SU-6 didn't will make a significant upgrade the overall performance? Sorry for the writing mistakes. 15:36
That's exactly right! The SU-6 improved the sound a bit with Bifrost 2, but not as much as with other DACs that are not galvanically isolated on their USB input.
Hans Beekhuyzen’s videos explain very well how digital signals are still analog in nature and don’t contain actual 0’s and 1’s , and so the “digital is digital” argument is misleading at best. What I haven’t seen is if a DDC made a noticeable improvement in SQ with a CD transport (any one) as the source.
I think the SU-6 KTE edition is the best implementation for non native IS2 conversion while ensuring the more esoteric consumers (and those who have invested in top of the line gear) they have a top of the line transport for other digital signals. Utility wise, these make alot of sense absent a quality clock, but I'm not sure you'd want to run something like a Holo May via IS2 on the same rack as some integrated stereo set up with a "lesser" clock lacking IS2 thus leading you to utilize AES/Optical/Coaxial skipping the Holo DAC to utilize the onboard integrated conversion over a line level input (balanced or unbalanced). Perhaps if you have "lesser" gear down chain and believe this is a superior clock between streamer/source/networker DDC's are a master clock/decrapifier between something like a Raspberry Pi or Wiim Mini streamer so someone doesn't have to reinvent the wheel to introduce streaming when the reality of someone's home space requires it (i.e. having a single PC/library no longer at the same desktop space as the listening set up). I strenuously reject tone and stage claims regarding DDC's but I support their utility and believe most high end DAC's in 2022 have very good clocks and galvanic isolation. Have a good weekend!
I believe most DACs today aren't galvanically isolated at all. I think Singxer's DAC and Schitt's Unison USB are really the only DAC's that host actual galvanic isolation.
@@epochphilosophy most midfi and entry sure. Summit DAC's aren't lacking. So like I said, If the downstream isn't this may be for those looking to intervene between source amd conversion.
@Ace of Spades you're right it was the SU-2 KTE. The SU-6 is better and the same price. The 2 accepts a 10mhz reference clock while the SU-6 doesn't. However reference clocks/master-slave set-ups (feels like we should have better descriptions in 2023 but I digress) work best as a chain not a single point of drift accuracy correction.
Yes, it does so the impact of the LPS doesn't make sense logically, but makese wonder if the SMPS is still introducing some noise into the ground plane of the device or something - I don't know
Yes a great improvement indeed. Also try this: stream your files from an ipad to a upnp bridge. Huge difference! Even streamers can be noisy... I use the mconnect ipad app to stream bit perfect tidal to a upnp bridge to my dac. First time the music is all there!
Kudos for being up-front about your earlier quick test. I also own the SU-6 and have been doing quite a bit of testing. - External power supplies do make a difference on the SU-6 in my situation. Hans claims otherwise, but perhaps his mains power is better than mine. - I found that on my motherboard, there is a difference between a plain USB port and the Thunderbolt 3 port. This makes sense due to the far higher bandwidth on TB3 and the necessity of greater signal integrity. - I found that on both the TB3 port and on a generic USB port, a my Audioquest Diamond cable made a big difference. (different computers may yield different results). That cable is quite expensive, so I really did not want it to work, but it does..... - I found that, once again on my computer, that putting an ifi iPurifier3 between the SU-6 and the Audioquest Diamond cable to the computer, improved the sound quite a bit. I then, just for fun, tried a second iPurifier3 so that I now had two of them between the SU-6 and the Audioquest Diamond. This also yielded an improvement to my ears. In all cases, I found that generic, even well regarded generic, USB cables are inferior in my system to the Audioquest Diamond. It may be that my computer has particularly poor signal quality on the USB and TB3 ports, but that is just speculation. I offer no rationalization for all of these system interactions, just the results of my testing. I am listening with a pair of Amphion Two18 studio monitors, using Grimm audio cables and the AES connection to two different DACs from the SU-6. (Not both at the same time, of course.) Personally, I did not want to like the SU-6, but I do. I did not want to keep the Audioquest Diamond cable, but I had to. I did not want to add more USB "conditioning and clean up" with the iPurifier3 units, but they really help. At the end of the day, my primary concern is the combination of sound quality and ear fatigue. I want to maximize sound quality and minimize ear fatigue, the SU-6 helps me do that.
I lost my job. My wife left me. I'm homeless. I'm addicted to pain killers. And. My dog died. All because I bought a USB cable this channel recommended. I could have returned it but I didn't. I told myself "I hear a difference".. but it was a lie. What proof did I have? That's when in a sleep deprived state from endless hours of A/B testing I mistakenly left my cable dangling from my workstation. The dog got hold of it and electrocuted himself. This caused an electrical fire that spread throughout my home in what seemed like an instant. My wife and I were forced to tie together bed sheets and climb out a window on our second floor, except I fell and shattered my leg. The fire caused significant damages to a neighboring home and our insurance only partially covered the costs. My health insurance only partially covered my time in the hospital and almost none of the ambulatory/emergency services. Finding myself in substantial debt I began over-relying on the pain killers I was prescribed to cope with the physical and emotional pain. My work became sloppy and I'd miss meetings and days due to the effects of the pills. My employer eventually fired me as a result, before I even got a chance to disclose a substance abuse problem. Then, my wife, fed up with our circumstances and my seeming resignation towards getting treatment I couldn't afford decided she'd be better off elsewhere. She even took the dog's ashes. All I have now is a wireless pair of Skull Candy headphones and a bunch of empty orange pill bottles. So be advised.. this channel can, and will, ruin your life. That being said I enjoyed the video and I'm definitely interested in trying out a USB bridge at some point in my future. Provided I am able to not be so homeless.
Lol! I love it! Come to my place, you can live in the corner of the garage (only the corner) and have the world's largest collection of dodgy wireless headphones and IEMs that companies are constantly trying to send me 😉
Great video, as always! Seems to me these units are really only useful if your dac has I2S as an input. Probably not worth it for just optical or coax. Pity not all dacs have I2S!
I use a Denafrips IRIS DDC from my Roon Nucleus + into my Chord Qutest via coaxial AND it absolutely makes an obvious, non-subtle improvement. Can't speak for these two units in the video, but I imagine they would be beneficial for coaxial as well.
Definitely! I'm using the SU-6 to feed coax (using a Wave High Fidelity cable) to multiple DACs and it sounds great! I2S is a great option when available and might be the absolute best in terms of maximum possible improvement, but the other outputs are still an upgrade over a stock motherboard USB output.
@@PassionforSound I would love to try I2S but I am really happy with my Qutest. HOWEVER, a 12G SDI coaxial cable from Belden (4794R) with two 9-10mm ferrites on the Qutest end was an enormous step up from a Wireworld Starlight Platinum 8 and an AQ Diamond RCA coaxial. As Rob Watts says, it created a lot more space in the recording, pushed the walls out, and really increased the smoothness AND apparent darkness.... but no detail was lost. So, the Belden 4794R cable was like adding another IRIS DDC. 👍
Nice! Yeah, I wouldn't recommend switching DACs just to get I2S. If you happen to have a DAC with I2S, I'd recommend using it, but the DAC design internally is more important to begin with.
I have an SU-6, which I chose after testing multiple other digital options into my M-Scaler feeding a DAVE. I have a dedicated NUC-based Roon Core running Roon ROCK, and I tried (1) a BlueSound Node (only as Roon endpoint), (2) and ifi Zen Stream (only as Roon endpoint), (3) Chord 2go/2yu (Roon endpoint), and (4) the Singxer SU-6 as DDC between my Roon Core and M-Scaler. The "best" USB outputs on all options were universally worse than even the worst digital COAX, with the SU-6 having the best combination of (low) noise floor and perceived timing accuracy, mostly manifesting as having the crispest transients. The ifi Zen Stream did have a slightly lower noise floor, but the transients were a bit too blurred in comparison. It's important to note that a lot of this depends on how good the internal clock and/or USB implementation is on your DAC. With few exceptions USB gets reclocked in nearly all DACs, so Jitter isn't really a USB issue (though it is often sold as it would be). Noise from the source certainly is, though. However, ALL digital coax is timed by the source rather than the DAC, so if you're using digital COAX, you want your source (e.g. the SU-6) to have a better clock than your DAC AND for the source to isolate noise better than a USB alternative. Unfortunately, this means your choice of USB vs Coax vs other is going to be very system dependent, and there is no single "right" answer. There are also external galvanic USB isolators available, like the Intona 7055-c.
Funny T-Shirt. I do however believe that we could measure most emotions perhaps via an ensemble of feedback from magnetic resonance angiogram, cat scans, pupil dilation (eye-tracking), skin conductance (EDA/GSR), brain activity (EEG, fMRI), heart rate (ECG), and perhaps even through hemodialysis' live hormone tracking. And from all this, we could finally show people's effort and suffering more blatantly and undeniably, and perhaps one day, make this area of the world far better than it is :) I also enjoyed your blind test from a previous video, and, hey, if it sounds different, then the difference is there :D
No. I had problems with matching the settings on the I2S DAC I had at the time. I don't think there's any reason to expect a change in performance from I2S compared to all the other protocols (which all compared about the same between the two DDCs)
Many major players like PS audio believe it does and the reason just about every high end DAC has a connection for it must count for something. It is the main reason I am interested in a DDC.
Sorry. My point was that the I2S from the SU-6 and the I2S from the U90 wouldn't be distinctly different. I definitely think I2S is the best connection choice when available.
usb is not the best way to connect your computer to a DAC. the problem is that you get a lot of noise from the power supply inside your PC and other noise from all the electronics. A computer is always connected to GND in your house, so you get that too. spdif or coax digital with galvanic isolation
Many DACs now offer galvanic isolation too and for lots of people, optical and SPDIF aren't an option. Add to that the fact that different devices work better/worse with optical and SPDIF and there's no clear cut best or worst
Yeah, that's always the challenge in this hobby. What's good or bad for one setup might not be the same on another. That you've got it sorted for your system though 🙂
The Topping M50 would actually benefit from the U90 or SU-6, Adam. Compact transports like these don't have the space (or budget) to include quality clocks like the ones in quality USB bridges.
There's absolutely no need to add something like this if you don't feel the need, but some people want the benefit of multiple or different digital connections or have very crappy USB outputs from computers, etc. Nothing I review is ever a necessity (I think?)
Jitter can still be a factor within a DAC when using USB as the input. The fact that the USB signal is being clocked locally isn't a guarantee that all jitter will be completely eradicated as jitter can be introduced in multiple ways
@@PassionforSound i think youre over thinking my friend... I had ifi usb cleaner, compared it with pc and phone outputs and phone sounded by far least fatiguing and noise free while ifi usb cleaner sounded somewhat clean, but also incredibly harsh. Maybe usb sound card is the better option since it have 1 source of noise instead of reclocker having 2.
Man so much dialogue but so little insight. It would help if you looked into the science behind signal processing to understand why a DDC does improve the (timing of the) signal. It’s a bit of a waste to use any output except I2S. The PSU comments on the Sinxer don’t mesh with reality since they have special capacitors which manage the power supply internally. Overall a super odd and not very insightful review. Good luck!
Alex, I specifically referred in here to a different video that tackled the benefits of DDCs so I didn't have to extend the length of the video. There are also plenty of examples of things that "shouldn't make a difference" where they do. Overall a super odd and not very helpful comment.
ANY USB BRIDGE FOR STABLE SIGNAL TO OLD & DAC WITH SENSITIVITY FOR SIGNAL DROPPING IS THE WAY TO GO. MY AUDIOLAB M-DAC IS FANTASTIC, BUT DROPPING A SIGNAL ON CZcams WHEN ADD IS COMING, WITH SINGXER SU1 I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM.ALSO. SAVE THE $ GO WITH USB connection, & a good USB CABLE. THEN GOOD COXIAL FROM USB CONVERTER TO DAC. PLZ NO SNAKE OIL!!!!!
I made an error in this video and said that the Singxer SU-6 accepted a master clock input. In actual fact, it provides a masterclock OUTPUT if your DAC accepts it (e.g. Aune X1S GT). Apologies for the error!!
Thanks Lauchlan, Much appreciated. Cheers.
I hope you like the results with the DDC
Great news! So glad you're enjoying it!
That would make sense. I've got the DMP-A6 here now too. Hope you enjoy it
This is fascinating, especially the results. I appreciate how many different tests and things that you put the equipment through, always in depth, and it’s good to anticipate the questions everyone has. Thanks again.
Glad you found it interesting! Thanks Rocket!
I have the SU-6 and the I2S connection is outstanding. Very noticeably better with my Topping D70s. Good job.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, MOD. Glad you're enjoying the SU-6/D70S combo
Best intro to wake up to in the morning!
Haha. Glad you liked it 😁
Thanks for an eye opener video!!
Glad you liked it!
I have owned an SU-6 for about a year now and based on this video I just upgraded to a regulated linear power supply and the difference in audio quality was amazing - so thanks for reminding me that the SQ improves with a good PSU. BTW anyone who thinks that "digital is digital" and therefore different cables or a different Power supply or a DDC cannot make a difference simply does not understand digital audio. Digital signals are actually analogue electrical signals that carry digitally coded information. These analogue signals can also have analogue noise of various kinds and it is this noise that can disrupt the operation of the DAC and give poor sound - it's simple, with digital just as with analogue, everything makes a difference.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Mike! I'm so glad you like the upgrade of the SU-6 using a better power supply!
Nice that you gave a shout-out to A British Audiophile. I really like him. He's the quintessential British gentleman and his reviews are fair and comprehensive. As are yours! He covers more hifi than head-fi the latter of which is my interest. Kudos to you for acknowledging other content creators.
I'm a big fan of a number of the outstanding creators in this hobby. British Audiophile and Hans Beekhuyzen are two of my favourites for sure.
That intro is awesome
Glad you liked it 😁
loved the intro and the vibe of the P4S channel... We need more of this attitude in life and less of the alternative. I am a huge fan of DDCs and have owned the Singxer SU2 and now a SU6. I've always wanted to try a Matrix Spdif 2 and now a Gustard U18. For me owning a Holo Spring KTE the USB is a terrible implementation by I2S is fantastic. My streamer and pc sources do not have I2S output so the DDC is a great way to improve the signal path in my chain. Other Dacs may have better spdif and USB inputs. I've also thought about investing in a better reclocker as well to improve the timing domain.
just got the Su-2... only using the i2s connect.. why you convert to the 6?
Also , the 6 has less sample rate for I2s than the Su-2
That's interesting to hear about the USB implementation on the Spring being subpar. It's a shame I didn't have the DDCs here for the Spring review to try I2S.
Even with the top tier (KTE) USB socket, you were unimpressed with its performance? Perhaps the Spring 2 is a better choice🤔
Love the sen-like introduction for the easily triggered!
Haha. Yeah, I had a bit of fun with this one 😁
hello, what changes between the HiFiMan he400i and the he400i 2020? the differences...
I have been using similar devices in my system for years as my older was doesn't accept usb. Also have experience with usb regenerators and they work to great effect in my systems, headphone and 2 channel. One thing I have noticed is getting better and better linear ppwer supplies to feed them improves the sound further. I have considered a jplay usb card or one of their network cards. I have used their jplay software over the years. Some of the best sound out of a generic pc but is not the most user friendly. Thanks for mentioning hans channel. I enjoy his reviews !
Thanks for your comment, Brandon. I agree about the power supplies being important and also that Hans' channel is fantastic!
Another great review. Btw off topic, what is the keyboard you are using? :)
Glad you liked the review. The keyboard is a Drop CTRL with a custom keycap set (I can't recall which one)
Excellent content! Ok, how does the Jcat USB card compare to the DDC's? Thanks
I'd rate the Jcat card as comparable with the Singxer SU-6 so if you're just after a quality USB output then that's the way to go, but the SU-6 provides greater versatility (as long as you don't need a USB connection to any of your DACs)
I love you how you use dog pics as part of the introduction for a controversial topic in the hobby. Made me laugh lol.
I haven't really explored usb bridges yet, and neither am I looking to, but I enjoyed the vid nonetheless!
Glad you liked the video (and the puppy opening) 🙂🙂
Great video! Does anyone know if the MCLK SEL (master clock select) switch on the back of the U90 should be set to 22/24 or 45/49, which is more optimal? I'm planning to connect the U90 to the D90LE via I2S, much thanks.
I believe you need to match that to the required settings for the DAC so just check the manual for the D90SE for the correct I2S settings
I have had my Fostex HPA4 dac, usb from my computer for years. Best, D.
I wonder what effect upgrading the power cable on the bifrost 2 would have on your test
I might have some answers for that coming soon... 😉
Do you have Denafrips Hermes? Is it better than SU-6? Do i have to configure SU-6 if i want to pair it with Pontus II via I2S?
I haven't tried the Hermes as yet. Sorry
Was it call the Lifatec optical usb-c cable? where could you buy it> Thanks!
It was a Cosemi one, but they seem to have stopped selling them (on Amazon at least)
Hello there ! Great video once again. I have a questions unrelated. If you had to choose only one and money wasn't a factor, which would it be, Meze Elite or Susvara?
Definitely the Elite. The Susvara is technically superior in some ways, but the Elite isore enjoyable for me across a wide range of genres and source devices. It also has two pad options to help tune its sound should you wish to.
@@PassionforSound thank you Lachlan ! I was just about to press the buy button on the Susvara and sell my Elite 🤣 I must say , I agree with you , I've auditioned the susvara multiple times and they seem to be very genre specific headphones. Loved then with Jazz , hated them with Hip Hop. Elite just sounds amazing with everything. Phew thanks alot mate.
So glad I could help. I think you've made the right choice if you listen to a wide range of genres
Good video as always Lachlan. I think we've seen enough proof from enough places now to agree that digital is not just digital. We understand a lot about the world, but our brains are still mostly a mystery to us. Ten years ago, if you had told someone that a human being could tell the difference between a 320 Hz display and a 500 Hz display, they would have laughed at you. I believe the same is true for audio, and its exciting to think that there is so much for us still to learn about how our brains work!
In saying that though, I do wonder where the high price tag is coming from here on these DDCs. Surely such a device could be sold for much cheaper than this?
Based on the fact that I heard benefits from the SU-6 over the U90, I think it's like any device where (in most cases) you get what you pay for. There are cheaper DDCs/USB bridges on the market like the Topping D10S, but I found that degraded the sound so I think the price equates to the quality of components (including the clocks) and therefore the quality of the output.
How does the Bifrost 2 connect to this and where does your PC/source plug in?
PC connects to the DDC via USB. The DDC can supply optical or coaxial to a Bifrost 2.
It confuses me that you heard a sound quality degradation in your test @ 16:13 using a good quality Supra spdif to BF2 from both DDCs (SU-6 stock power supply). If interconnects made the difference how do you explain it? Was the Supra not good enough to keep the sound quality on par when compared to direct connection PC-to-BF2? The U90 cannot use a LPS so if the latter is critical then the U90 cannot maintain at least the same sound quality when compared to not using it? Thanks.
Every digital interconnect (other than optical) is still sending an analog signal that just represents the digital data, but it means that the interconnects can influence (filter) the sound. I'm still seeking a clear answer as to how this occurs so I can't explain it precisely yet.
Interesting take! In your opinion, does it matter what type of HDMI cable you use from DDC to DAC?
I’ve used many cables ranging from $0-700 for my SU6 I2S setup and the best cable for me was a Belkin high speed cable, specifically from the Apple Store as the ones they sell at other stores are slightly different. It sounds basically the same as Audioquests higher end cables.
I haven't tried lots of different HDMI cables, but my experience with all other digital interconnects would suggest that they all make a difference
@@PassionforSound curious which ones you tried specifically? I’ve got an Audioquest Forest (really short) that I’m using but haven’t experimented with others yet.
I've got a Supra HDMI cable as a quality option and then just some generic one that either came with devices or that were cheap store-bought ones
I have the Gustard DDC U18 in the mail, hopefully it proves good, or ill be exchanging for a better power conditioner or sine wave battery. Do you regularly use one now, or w/ certain dacs only. I upgraded my Pangea USB cable a while back to the upgraded Pangea USB cable with split usb-a ends, i use it to get 5v usb bus power to the cable from a P50 lps or ipower smpsbi nstead of it being derived from my pc motherboard, this makes my sound come across more analog, so I hope this DDC will do more than just galvanic isolation, which Im hoping the clock crystal timing does.
I think you'll be happy. I use the Singxer SU-6 constantly so I can run two quality USB audio feeds from my JCat USB cards and then another range of outputs (I2S, Coax, AES, etc.) from the SU-6. The DDCs (if they are good and the Gustard should be) definitely improve the overall refinement thanks to better signal clocking it seems
@@PassionforSound what I also find fascinating is the plug order of the devices into the mains power strip. The difference that exists between plugging in the HPA in first then the DAC second or vice versa, and Plugging my Source PC in ahead of both of them or after them or into a different power strip. I also find the providing usb bus power for the dac usb data bus sounds a little better if coming from the same power strip as the PC is plugged into vs where the dac is plugged in, better synched.
Yeah, it's incredible how power quality can alter these different devices
Would like the SU-6 but it seems not I2s compatible with my SMSL M400
The SU-6 has switches to adjust the I2S output settings. I think it should work
I am considering one of these since my Hegel HD25 dac is meant to have exceptional coax input. I use usb from PC, so need to good USB to Coax converter.
I'd definitely choose the SU-6, but both are strong options
Have you compared DDC to hugo TT2, with and without M-scaler? Curious if this DDC devices could replace the much pricier M-scaler without missing much on the sound quality.
I have used the SU-6 with the DAVE and then the M-Scaler and it's not a replacement in any way I'm afraid. The M-Scaler is upsampling the signal using complex algorithms while the SU-6 is just translating it to a different protocol. It might clean the signal up a little, but that's all
@@PassionforSound thanks Lachlan! wasn't the answer i am hoping for, since m-scaler is too pricey for me when considered as an additional device for your DAC in the chain. DDC is also additional, but seems like you get what you paid for. Great Info!
Sorry I couldn't give you the cheaper response! 😉
@@ramasuharman7962 just use HQ player, higher upsampling than the M Scaler but it does use some CPU/GPU power
HQ Player does approximate the M-Scaler, but doesn't match it. Audio Bacon did a great write-up some time ago.
This was an outrageous review. I was totally triggered and 3 days later I’m still wobbling. Loved it!
Haha. Glad you enjoyed it 😁
I usually watch jacked up on COFFEE ☕️
Really enjoyed the review and I can agree with the results. I have been trying to improve my USB inputs to various DACs for some time. Changes to cables and inline USB conditioning via IFI type products have been of some benefit. However I have recently Purchased both the Topping U90 and the Gustard U18. The Improvements has been really impressive using both DDC units via I2S connections. Topping U90 into Topping D70s and Gustard U18 into Audio GD R28 R2R DAC section. Really good improvement in Audio Definition from my Desktop PC. Certainly if you have a DAC that accepts I2S then the improvement I think is worthwhile in signal Quality and there is a need to also use a good HDMI cable as well for connection between the DDC and the DAC.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Robert!
why most DDC doesn't offer USB output? can review the iFi iDefender + iPower-X + ipurifier3 vs both su6 & u90?
I can't get iFi sample units unfortunately. As for why they don't have USB outputs on most DDCs, it's because a DDC is specifically designed to convert from USB to something else. USB purifiers and reclockers are the ones with USB to USB
@@PassionforSound
👍 👍 👍
I have the iFi iGalvanic which is a neat little unit that dramatically cleaned up the noise from my gaming PC into my Lyr 3 multibit dac/tube amp, because the multibit dac does not come with Schiit’s unison usb.
Galvanic isolation can make a nice improvement. It seems these DDCs can go a step further still
@@PassionforSound I also use the iFi iPurifier3 USB Type B on my Bifrost 2 which makes a noticeable improvement.
That combo might be closer to what the SU-6 is doing while still outputting USB instead of switching to a different protocol
Phew, that sounds like some tedious testing. Glad someone is willing to do it, because I have no desire to.
That's what I'm here for! 😉
It was a bit tedious, but also very interesting as I started to understand the results
It's the jitter. The USB cables vary on the jitter they add. If only the USB going to the dac matters and varies that means the ddc is doing its job and eliminating noise and jitter. We are more sensitive to jitter than the noise as we can filter the noise out and it's only EMI noise and the final sound will have noise from many different sources mostly inaudible so it must be the ddc's jitter elimination via its clock.
That makes quite a bit of sense I think
Been using many a DDC for years within streamers I have made. and I also use the SU6, Gustard U12 + others today lf you stream via a Raspberry Pi then a DDC will make a difference IMHO (for roon endpoints for example). Good modern DACs implement USB better! Well done Passion for Sound for this video and exploring this topic😀
Thanks Derek! It makes a lot of sense to chuck one of these after a Raspberry Pi to create a top notch endpoint
@@PassionforSound I'm thinking the IanCanada hardware with a PI4 will be hard to beat (it cut's out the need for a DDC) and can be built with super-caps for a rock solid voltage source. The IanCanada route will cost no more than a dedicated DDC.
That one's new to me - I'll need to go have a read
I actually learned about this and not many know but yes ddc's do improve sound quality but for very interesting reasons. Without the ddc what happens is the USB takes the data package and translates it to iis (i2s) which is the native language for data to the dac. The ddc basically does this and either outputs USB or i2s with the bigger benefit being from the straight i2s output. Using the ddc fixes jitter and provides basically a USB hub that's isolated and noise free continuing out of it while a computer is extemely noisey. Also ddc's allow external clocks. People mistake that feature as something stupid because the clock is outside the dac and they think the jitter from using it would be insane but actually because it reclocks the data package and processes it with its own so that the dac can just sample and play the data at line level its perfect. And you can use a temperature controlled clock which is the best kind (lowest jitter). =)
Great explanation, VB
Fake theory
Love the puppies, order if brought the anger down at all?
Haha. Glad you liked them 😁
I'd love to hear your opinion on the Gustard U18. Gustard tends to do power supplies really well and I think that could make a worthwhile difference. In my experience, I2s is a VERY worthwhile upgrade on every single DAC I've used I2s with.
I'm still trying to get my hands on some Gustard gear. It's not from lack of trying 😉
@@PassionforSound If only shipping to you Aussies wasn't so damn expensive I'd just send you mine in a heartbeat lol.
I know - it's crazy! Thanks for the thought
@@PassionforSound will your new channel sponsorship (sorry forgot the site) allow you to get access to Gustard gear? If so the Gustard R26 dac and U18 DDC might be interesting products for your channel.
I think they do carry Gustard, but not all models so we'll see what I can arrange
Your finding about USB cables not making any difference is strange to me because found that when I upgraded my generic USB cable to Supra Excalibur it made a very big difference to the sound of my SU6 ( feeding a Venus 2 via I2S ) Conversely, I tried an audioquest Carbon HDMI for I2S and found that I much preferred a Cheap 2 meter KabelDirekt HDMI from Amazon. However, the really interesting thing is that although the 2M KabelDirekt sound nice and musical and relaxed, Identical KabelDirekt HDMIs of 1M and 0.25M sounded progressively worse the shorter they were. ( there is a logical explanation why this might be so )
I've definitely found USB cables to make significant differences in most circumstances, but didn't find the SU-6 to be affected by the upstream cable. Maybe I should try again some time...
What do you think about the AES connection? I have the topping D70 Pro SABRE which only have aes input that would be compatible with the su-6 that I intend to purchase in a few days.
I really like AES as a connection. I like the convenience of USB, but when using other types of connections, I try to go for IIS first (if available) and then AES as my next preference
Hola, felicidades por tu canal, todo muy bien cuidado y tus revisiones impecables. Que opinas del Drop Hifiman He5xx?
I haven't tried the 5Exx so I can't comment on them - sorry
Hi my friend; you are intimately familiar with the Gungdin and subsequently bought the Pontus II. Please give me the skinney on these as this represents 2 months savings for me! I have pre-ordered the Schiit, but I am worrying the Pontus is a better choice worth saving for...can u shed light? I had the Bifrost 2 and it's lack of detail in the highs is why I sent it back and purchased the next in line as reviewers said it's 15-20% better in this regard. As always I hit the like button 4 u 2 get paid baby!
Thanks Chris! Unfortunately, I haven't yet tried the Pontus II so I can't provide a comparison, but my old Gungnir Multibit (pre Analog 2 board) was almost as good as the Qutest so I think you might have made a good decision. Lots of the R2R DACs can get a bit too smooth so if you want more bite than the BF2, a true R2R might not have been the best choice (although the Pontus II might be an exception to my other experiences)
@@PassionforSound thx bud, ur a scholar and a gentleman!!
Always a pleasure, Chris
The DDC I use has a linear psu and 2 separate gold coloured TCXOs for USB audio 2 clocking, however these boxes just seem to be jittery digital splitters. These devices should use a TCXO or an OCXO in my opinion.
I'm confused. You've said it uses TXCOs and then said that it SHOULD use TXCOs or an OXCO. If it's already using TXCOs, what's the problem?
@@PassionforSound I said my DDC uses a TCXO, perhaps I should have asked you about what type / grade of clock they use.
Ah. I understand now - sorry for the confusion. From memory, the SU-6 uses an OXCO. I can't remember what the U90 uses. I THINK I might have mentioned it in passing on the video, but I'm not certain on that.
I love adding things but it’s got to make a difference
I do believe the DDCs make a difference if you're running a generic USB output.
This is equivalent to a serious examination of whether the Earth is flat.
how do i plug up the LPS to the su 6? I'm confused.
The LPS replaces the provided switch mode power supply, inline brick so it connects to the DC power socket of the back left of the SU6
@@PassionforSound do different power supplys come with different cables? Which one do you recommend to get the best of the su6?
You might want to buy a power supply with changeable tips any have different DC barrel style connectors that can be swapped). That said, most devices use the same size and wiring config so it's pretty standard. I can't recall the specs, but it should be available on the spec sheet for the SU-6
Hey mate did you use a USB-C to USB-C optical cable?
Not for this one. They both use USB-B inputs
I have the SU-6 and when I first got it, I emailed Leter (Singxer) and asked him if an LPS would be better than the original power brick and he replied "yes, if you have a very good LPS". I'm using the farad super3 with the SU-6 and prefer the aes/ebu connection into my dacs over the i2s connection.
Thanks for sharing that information, Gavin. Very helpful to get confirmation about the LPS! Glad you're enjoying your SU-6
how do you hook up the super3 to the singxer su 6? I have it as well.
Excellent opening! And also.. cool, I run the Musician Pegasus feeding the Burson Soloist and the Hifiman Arya SE. Have done too much research really about digital interfaces, I'll see what I end up with (right now I lean towards the Audio-GD DI-20, which actually has an inbuilt linear PSU).
The Pegasus is lovely! I've got one here now for review soonish. There are lots of great DDCs, reclockers, etc. on the market. I imagine it would be hard to choose.
Test sound
Test sound ! Sound! Sound !
Totally love the Eye-bleach :DD
The eye-bleach?
@@PassionforSound Eye Bleach refers to the act of "washing ones eyes with cute images, preferably puppies or cats" lol
Haha. I probably could have googled that 😂
It would be great if you could review the iFi iDefender Ground Isolator (it's a USB flash-drive-looking accessory costing
Unfortunately, the local iFi distributor has blocked multiple requests (from iFi) to send me gear ☹️
@@PassionforSound Really? I don't know what to make of it. So, you'll have to rely on patrons to help out with iFi product reviews. Unfortunately, I do not own one, actually seeking to determine its usefulness from a review, so regrettably cannot assist. Thanks for always replying to my comments, I really appreciate it.
Yes, it's all about the fact that I was personal friends with a competitor of theirs once upon a time. 🤷
My friend as much as I love your passion and honesty if you want to make a point when it comes to pursuing real results/quality of a device class you should do it BLIND and record it.
I don't even suggest you to go through all that rigid academic setting to do true ABX tests. Just get yourself a blindfold, a switcher and a friend to switch it for you and then you review your own results.
Anyway, even if you dismiss what I said it's fine, I love your format as long as you keep being real to your hearing and opinion.
I've done blind testing in the past for my own interest - to test how it influenced what I could hear/not hear, etc. And it only proved to me that while blind listening does remove potential sources of bias, it also introduces a different problem where the brain becomes more focussed on trying to find differences and sometimes that gets in the way of actually understanding the gear. For a reviewer like me, blind tests actually make me a less accurate listener.
To add to that, there are multiple ways to combat biases. These are just assumptions and expectations so you can break them by testing against them. For example, if I know that I am likely to expect a more expensive product to be better, I can do a comparison listening test (after my general listening) with the specific goal of proving to myself that it's not better than a cheaper device. That way, I'm looking specifically for reasons it's not better and that creates an opposite expectation to my original bias. If I succeed, then bias had me preferring the product initially. If I fail then it really is better.
Finally, keep in mind that at this point in my audio journey, I am incredibly happy with my existing gear and setup so I don't "need" anything to be better or worse so I rarely have expectations going into a listening test and, if I do, I use the approach above.
Thanks for watching and commenting 🙂
@@PassionforSound Fair point. I don't expect anyone's hearing to be flawless and consistent at all times so I still lean in the preposition that only proper ABX test can tell us the whole picture (but I admit I might be biased due to my background in academic environments).
I respect your solution and your ability to be truthful to what you experience and to me that has been a big selling point of your channel. Keep delivering interesting videos my friend and keep your passion alive I know it could be exhausting or repetitive at times :).
Thanks CE. The blind, ABX approach is great when you're controlling for a single variable, like in medicine, but there are two many variables that can be altered in music (timbre, frequency response, soundstage size, image focus, etc.) so it makes trying to control for a single variable a bit of a fool's errand.
Thank you for discussing it respectfully and for your support of the channel!
I believe DDC is essential for connecting DAC to gaming PC.
If it's prone to sending noise out the USB socket then for sure
i'm brazilian and actually don't speak English so well. so if anyone can help: the conclusion is that use a DDC with the schiit bifrost 2 didn't has much improvement because the schiit usb input is good enough? in my case: I already used my PC with normal USB output > schiit bifrost 2/64 > singxer SA-1. so, for example, the SU-6 didn't will make a significant upgrade the overall performance? Sorry for the writing mistakes. 15:36
That's exactly right! The SU-6 improved the sound a bit with Bifrost 2, but not as much as with other DACs that are not galvanically isolated on their USB input.
Hans Beekhuyzen’s videos explain very well how digital signals are still analog in nature and don’t contain actual 0’s and 1’s , and so the “digital is digital” argument is misleading at best. What I haven’t seen is if a DDC made a noticeable improvement in SQ with a CD transport (any one) as the source.
That's an interesting question about the CD transport. I don't currently have one, but hope to in the nearish future. (Also, Hans is great!)
I think the SU-6 KTE edition is the best implementation for non native IS2 conversion while ensuring the more esoteric consumers (and those who have invested in top of the line gear) they have a top of the line transport for other digital signals.
Utility wise, these make alot of sense absent a quality clock, but I'm not sure you'd want to run something like a Holo May via IS2 on the same rack as some integrated stereo set up with a "lesser" clock lacking IS2 thus leading you to utilize AES/Optical/Coaxial skipping the Holo DAC to utilize the onboard integrated conversion over a line level input (balanced or unbalanced).
Perhaps if you have "lesser" gear down chain and believe this is a superior clock between streamer/source/networker DDC's are a master clock/decrapifier between something like a Raspberry Pi or Wiim Mini streamer so someone doesn't have to reinvent the wheel to introduce streaming when the reality of someone's home space requires it (i.e. having a single PC/library no longer at the same desktop space as the listening set up).
I strenuously reject tone and stage claims regarding DDC's but I support their utility and believe most high end DAC's in 2022 have very good clocks and galvanic isolation.
Have a good weekend!
I believe most DACs today aren't galvanically isolated at all. I think Singxer's DAC and Schitt's Unison USB are really the only DAC's that host actual galvanic isolation.
@@epochphilosophy most midfi and entry sure. Summit DAC's aren't lacking. So like I said, If the downstream isn't this may be for those looking to intervene between source amd conversion.
@@epochphilosophy the Chord Qutest & 2Qute DACs has galvanic isolation, along with the dCS Lina network DAC
Is there such a thing as the SU-6 KTE? I've seen a SU-1 KTE and SU-2 KTE editions but I've only seen a regular SU-6 for around ~ $750 USD.
@Ace of Spades you're right it was the SU-2 KTE. The SU-6 is better and the same price. The 2 accepts a 10mhz reference clock while the SU-6 doesn't. However reference clocks/master-slave set-ups (feels like we should have better descriptions in 2023 but I digress) work best as a chain not a single point of drift accuracy correction.
Don't the su-6 uses super caps which works like a battery, so using a linear power supply on it don't make much sense?
Yes, it does so the impact of the LPS doesn't make sense logically, but makese wonder if the SMPS is still introducing some noise into the ground plane of the device or something - I don't know
Yes a great improvement indeed.
Also try this: stream your files from an ipad to a upnp bridge. Huge difference! Even streamers can be noisy...
I use the mconnect ipad app to stream bit perfect tidal to a upnp bridge to my dac. First time the music is all there!
Interesting tip! Thanks for sharing
Kudos for being up-front about your earlier quick test. I also own the SU-6 and have been doing quite a bit of testing.
- External power supplies do make a difference on the SU-6 in my situation. Hans claims otherwise, but perhaps his mains power is better than mine.
- I found that on my motherboard, there is a difference between a plain USB port and the Thunderbolt 3 port. This makes sense due to the far higher bandwidth on TB3 and the necessity of greater signal integrity.
- I found that on both the TB3 port and on a generic USB port, a my Audioquest Diamond cable made a big difference. (different computers may yield different results). That cable is quite expensive, so I really did not want it to work, but it does.....
- I found that, once again on my computer, that putting an ifi iPurifier3 between the SU-6 and the Audioquest Diamond cable to the computer, improved the sound quite a bit. I then, just for fun, tried a second iPurifier3 so that I now had two of them between the SU-6 and the Audioquest Diamond. This also yielded an improvement to my ears.
In all cases, I found that generic, even well regarded generic, USB cables are inferior in my system to the Audioquest Diamond. It may be that my computer has particularly poor signal quality on the USB and TB3 ports, but that is just speculation.
I offer no rationalization for all of these system interactions, just the results of my testing. I am listening with a pair of Amphion Two18 studio monitors, using Grimm audio cables and the AES connection to two different DACs from the SU-6. (Not both at the same time, of course.)
Personally, I did not want to like the SU-6, but I do. I did not want to keep the Audioquest Diamond cable, but I had to. I did not want to add more USB "conditioning and clean up" with the iPurifier3 units, but they really help. At the end of the day, my primary concern is the combination of sound quality and ear fatigue. I want to maximize sound quality and minimize ear fatigue, the SU-6 helps me do that.
Thanks for sharing your experiences, DG!
yes - pure sound ------ and i have GOOOOOD Sounds for mental timeswitch biotuning orcestra from other galaxy for you to listen
I lost my job. My wife left me. I'm homeless. I'm addicted to pain killers. And. My dog died. All because I bought a USB cable this channel recommended. I could have returned it but I didn't. I told myself "I hear a difference".. but it was a lie. What proof did I have? That's when in a sleep deprived state from endless hours of A/B testing I mistakenly left my cable dangling from my workstation. The dog got hold of it and electrocuted himself. This caused an electrical fire that spread throughout my home in what seemed like an instant. My wife and I were forced to tie together bed sheets and climb out a window on our second floor, except I fell and shattered my leg. The fire caused significant damages to a neighboring home and our insurance only partially covered the costs. My health insurance only partially covered my time in the hospital and almost none of the ambulatory/emergency services. Finding myself in substantial debt I began over-relying on the pain killers I was prescribed to cope with the physical and emotional pain. My work became sloppy and I'd miss meetings and days due to the effects of the pills. My employer eventually fired me as a result, before I even got a chance to disclose a substance abuse problem. Then, my wife, fed up with our circumstances and my seeming resignation towards getting treatment I couldn't afford decided she'd be better off elsewhere. She even took the dog's ashes. All I have now is a wireless pair of Skull Candy headphones and a bunch of empty orange pill bottles.
So be advised.. this channel can, and will, ruin your life. That being said I enjoyed the video and I'm definitely interested in trying out a USB bridge at some point in my future. Provided I am able to not be so homeless.
Lol! I love it!
Come to my place, you can live in the corner of the garage (only the corner) and have the world's largest collection of dodgy wireless headphones and IEMs that companies are constantly trying to send me 😉
Check the duok U2 pro for an entry-level option
Thanks George!
Great video, as always! Seems to me these units are really only useful if your dac has I2S as an input. Probably not worth it for just optical or coax. Pity not all dacs have I2S!
I think it's definitely helpful for I2S DACs, but also if you have a bad USB output from your computer/streamer, etc. it can really help there too
I use a Denafrips IRIS DDC from my Roon Nucleus + into my Chord Qutest via coaxial AND it absolutely makes an obvious, non-subtle improvement. Can't speak for these two units in the video, but I imagine they would be beneficial for coaxial as well.
Definitely! I'm using the SU-6 to feed coax (using a Wave High Fidelity cable) to multiple DACs and it sounds great! I2S is a great option when available and might be the absolute best in terms of maximum possible improvement, but the other outputs are still an upgrade over a stock motherboard USB output.
@@PassionforSound I would love to try I2S but I am really happy with my Qutest. HOWEVER, a 12G SDI coaxial cable from Belden (4794R) with two 9-10mm ferrites on the Qutest end was an enormous step up from a Wireworld Starlight Platinum 8 and an AQ Diamond RCA coaxial. As Rob Watts says, it created a lot more space in the recording, pushed the walls out, and really increased the smoothness AND apparent darkness.... but no detail was lost. So, the Belden 4794R cable was like adding another IRIS DDC. 👍
Nice!
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend switching DACs just to get I2S. If you happen to have a DAC with I2S, I'd recommend using it, but the DAC design internally is more important to begin with.
I have an SU-6, which I chose after testing multiple other digital options into my M-Scaler feeding a DAVE. I have a dedicated NUC-based Roon Core running Roon ROCK, and I tried (1) a BlueSound Node (only as Roon endpoint), (2) and ifi Zen Stream (only as Roon endpoint), (3) Chord 2go/2yu (Roon endpoint), and (4) the Singxer SU-6 as DDC between my Roon Core and M-Scaler. The "best" USB outputs on all options were universally worse than even the worst digital COAX, with the SU-6 having the best combination of (low) noise floor and perceived timing accuracy, mostly manifesting as having the crispest transients. The ifi Zen Stream did have a slightly lower noise floor, but the transients were a bit too blurred in comparison. It's important to note that a lot of this depends on how good the internal clock and/or USB implementation is on your DAC. With few exceptions USB gets reclocked in nearly all DACs, so Jitter isn't really a USB issue (though it is often sold as it would be). Noise from the source certainly is, though. However, ALL digital coax is timed by the source rather than the DAC, so if you're using digital COAX, you want your source (e.g. the SU-6) to have a better clock than your DAC AND for the source to isolate noise better than a USB alternative. Unfortunately, this means your choice of USB vs Coax vs other is going to be very system dependent, and there is no single "right" answer. There are also external galvanic USB isolators available, like the Intona 7055-c.
Also, my apologies for not thanking Lachlan up-front for another measured, unbiased review. Love your videos. Keep sharing these experiences!
Thanks for the great write-up of your experiences, Andris. Glad you liked the video! 🙂🙂
On a dissimilar observation, rocket science is becoming more and more simple when compared to audiophilia lol
LOL There's mythical things in all kinds of high end manufacturing. Just ask someone worked in electronics or mechanics.
Funny T-Shirt. I do however believe that we could measure most emotions perhaps via an ensemble of feedback from magnetic resonance angiogram, cat scans, pupil dilation (eye-tracking), skin conductance (EDA/GSR), brain activity (EEG, fMRI), heart rate (ECG), and perhaps even through hemodialysis' live hormone tracking. And from all this, we could finally show people's effort and suffering more blatantly and undeniably, and perhaps one day, make this area of the world far better than it is :)
I also enjoyed your blind test from a previous video, and, hey, if it sounds different, then the difference is there :D
Lol. That's the last thing we need - boiling all emotions down to measurements! Thanks for watching and commenting!
You never tested I2S?
No. I had problems with matching the settings on the I2S DAC I had at the time. I don't think there's any reason to expect a change in performance from I2S compared to all the other protocols (which all compared about the same between the two DDCs)
Many major players like PS audio believe it does and the reason just about every high end DAC has a connection for it must count for something.
It is the main reason I am interested in a DDC.
Sorry. My point was that the I2S from the SU-6 and the I2S from the U90 wouldn't be distinctly different. I definitely think I2S is the best connection choice when available.
If someone says cables don't make a difference should go and learn audio 101
Sadly, they would tell us the exact same thing ☹️
usb is not the best way to connect your computer to a DAC. the problem is that you get a lot of noise from the power supply inside your PC and other noise from all the electronics. A computer is always connected to GND in your house, so you get that too.
spdif or coax digital with galvanic isolation
Many DACs now offer galvanic isolation too and for lots of people, optical and SPDIF aren't an option. Add to that the fact that different devices work better/worse with optical and SPDIF and there's no clear cut best or worst
@@PassionforSound Ok. Not the ones i have. Possibly they are too old or too cheap.
Yeah, that's always the challenge in this hobby. What's good or bad for one setup might not be the same on another. That you've got it sorted for your system though 🙂
Great opening, sadly true.
Glad you liked it 🙂
Probably would have bought one but at £500+ each I'll give them a miss.
They're definitely something I'd only recommend if you've got everything else in place or specifically need multiple digital feeds from a single USB.
Ha Ha... the opening is great. kill 'em with kindness. No sense in giving the trolls what they want anyway.
Sad but true 🙂
Topping M50 replaces them, usb bridges, all for way less with far more features, such as network Wi-Fi & Bluetooth ect ect.
The Topping M50 would actually benefit from the U90 or SU-6, Adam. Compact transports like these don't have the space (or budget) to include quality clocks like the ones in quality USB bridges.
I passed out around the 6 minute mark because no one told me to exhale. Worst meditation video ever.
Lol. Sorry, mate!
If your happy with the sound your getting why add something else into the chain that cost a lot more? That doesn’t make much sense
LOL... the question of the year. This hobby is in pursuit of "better sound" -- we are talking about very discerning nuances.
because why not reach higher
There's absolutely no need to add something like this if you don't feel the need, but some people want the benefit of multiple or different digital connections or have very crappy USB outputs from computers, etc. Nothing I review is ever a necessity (I think?)
Unlike optical or coaxial, or I2S, jitter doesn't apply to USB.
Jitter is absolutely critical in USB. Not sure where you got the sense that it's not
@@PassionforSound usb is async input therefore jittery source have 0 difference.
Noise is only issue.
Jitter can still be a factor within a DAC when using USB as the input. The fact that the USB signal is being clocked locally isn't a guarantee that all jitter will be completely eradicated as jitter can be introduced in multiple ways
@@PassionforSound i think youre over thinking my friend...
I had ifi usb cleaner, compared it with pc and phone outputs and phone sounded by far least fatiguing and noise free while ifi usb cleaner sounded somewhat clean, but also incredibly harsh.
Maybe usb sound card is the better option since it have 1 source of noise instead of reclocker having 2.
Man so much dialogue but so little insight. It would help if you looked into the science behind signal processing to understand why a DDC does improve the (timing of the) signal. It’s a bit of a waste to use any output except I2S. The PSU comments on the Sinxer don’t mesh with reality since they have special capacitors which manage the power supply internally. Overall a super odd and not very insightful review. Good luck!
Alex, I specifically referred in here to a different video that tackled the benefits of DDCs so I didn't have to extend the length of the video. There are also plenty of examples of things that "shouldn't make a difference" where they do. Overall a super odd and not very helpful comment.
ANY USB BRIDGE FOR STABLE SIGNAL TO OLD & DAC WITH SENSITIVITY FOR SIGNAL DROPPING IS THE WAY TO GO. MY AUDIOLAB M-DAC IS FANTASTIC, BUT DROPPING A SIGNAL ON CZcams WHEN ADD IS COMING, WITH SINGXER SU1 I DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM.ALSO. SAVE THE $ GO WITH USB connection, & a good USB CABLE. THEN GOOD COXIAL FROM USB CONVERTER TO DAC. PLZ NO SNAKE OIL!!!!!
I'm unsure if you're asking a question or making a declaration here.