The Briefing Room: Would the UK ever overturn Brexit and rejoin the EU?
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- It’s almost 4 years since the UK left the European Union. Recent polls show a majority of people want to re-join the EU. But is this a realistic option?
So in this week’s programme David Aaronovitch asks could we re-join the EU if we wanted? If we did, would it be of any benefit to the UK? And under what terms would the EU have us back?
David is joined by the following experts:
Peter Foster, Public Policy Editor at Financial Times
Mujtaba Rahman, Managing Director for Europe at Eurasia Group who advise investors on political risk
Jill Rutter a Senior Fellow at the Institute of Government who directed the organisation's work on Brexit
Anand Menon, Director of the UK in a Changing Europe
Production team: Sophie Eastaugh, Kirsteen Knight and Alex Lewis
Production Co-ordinators: Katie Morrison
Sound: Rod Farquhar
Editor: Richard Vadon
Certainly the UK would not be "forced" to join Schengen and the Euro. Once the UK asks for opt outs of any kind it will be seen as lack of committment and the "negotiations" will come to a halt. It is quite telling that one of the first things these people discuss is their former membership conditions.
I COMPLETELY agree. Just what I thought! It’s simply unbelievable that even “rejoiners” or “remainers” or whatever one would call them, are discussing exemptions and exceptions. No spirit of commitment, cooperation or solidarity whatsoever. It is SAD!
Greetings from Belgium, EU.
Totally irrelevant as the UK doesn’t want to rejoin the cesspit EU and never voted to ever join in the first place.
@@louis-philippearnhem6959 I think they need hard wakeup call.
Yeah, it's like being stopped by a pan-handler who then proceeds to tell you what kind of currencies he will and won't accept.
@@AChapstickOrange Recently pan-handlers have been using those portable lightweight credit-card machines.
The UK was never really IN. First, they didn't want to join the EEC. Then, in the sixties, they wanted to join but only on their own terms. In 1975, only two-and-a-half years after having entered, the UK had a first referendum.
In 1979 Margaret Thatcher provoked a major crisis because she wanted her money back. No compromise was possible during 5 years. And when an agreement was signed 31 May 1980 in Brussels, it was immediately called into question in Maastricht at the end of March 1981. She eventually did get her rebate in 1984. And so it goes on for years.
Just before 2016, the UK had the best deal with exceptions and opt-outs (and even opt-ins for opt-outs!) but it was still not enough as Cameron wanted yet more and more exceptions. It was never enough and it never would be enough. The UK saw (and still sees) the EU as a profitable free trade zone. Nothing more.
Yes, never a Team Player, only a resentful substitute allowed into the football match claiming to be far more important than all the rest combined. Out now and stay out!
UK measures everything through a lens’s of economic advantage. Johnny foreigners start at Calais. Hardly a member of who believes in a European peace plan
UK never voted to join the EU! FACT!
@@PollieBrooon-cz5yg Read the Treaty of Rome, it’s all there. The Treaty of Rome set up the European Economic Community (EEC), bringing together Belgium, Germany, France, Italy, Luxembourg and the Netherlands to work together towards INTEGRATION and economic growth through trade. It established a common market based on the free movement of goods, people, services, and capital. It NEVER was a free trade zone only. Hence the C (Community) in EEC.
You did not know what you voted for, that’s the problem (and you still don’t, that’s the worrying part).
"Where IGNORANCE is bliss, it is folly to be wise"! Brits are Brats, entitled brats!@@louis-philippearnhem6959
Jill Rutter mentions the stark choice that Monsieur Barnier gave to the UK; that was the mandate the member states gave to him.
As regards a bespoke deal like that of Theresa May, while M. Barnier had great personal respect for Mrs May, he regarded her wish for a bespoke deal, and her saying that "we will never be a third country like any other" as simply her determination to indulge in cherrypicking.
The UK would do well to stop talking to itself and listen to what the EU is saying.
Not the right question to ask.
The real question is: Why should the EU member states ever want a country back that is openly hostile towards them individually and the EU as a whole?
Britain is not hostile to individual European countries. It's the EU that is hostile to individual European countries - it wants to destroy the individual nation states, that is the entire point of the EU. To be an anti-democratic superstate ruled by an unelected clique of WEF deep-state leftists like Ursula Von Der Leyen.
If it was a 'young' former Soviet Bloc country recently 'liberated', I'd say the UK's actions were Adolescent Hubris. But it's too old for that, so it must be put down to pre-senile dementia, imagining it's still a world-dominating power. Out means Out, forever!
what a dull question, how have the uk ever been openly hostile towards them? or do you mean the politicians when brexit was happening? but you fail to recognise the vote was split 52/48 and only because we were fed propaganda, i was 18 and voted to leave not knowing anything but what politicians said, looking back that was the stupidest thing I and many other around me could've done and i own up to that. You look at the populas vote predication now of if we should rejoin or not and its a landslide to rejoin. I genuinly dont think ive met a human in the UK whos hated any EU country, seems bitter to claim open hostility when in reality no-one hates the EU states and none of the population has anything negative to say about them.
@@Diontb Admitting that you made a mistake is commendable and I know that many Brits are not hostile towards the EU on a personal level, however many are.
The british Media and the british government are 100 % hostile.
They are using the EU as scapegoat for 40 years now. Whenever the UK government makes a decision and this decision backfires they blame it on the EU even though the decisions had nothing to do with the EU at all. And it didn't stop with brexit, they continue doing that kind of thing.
Not to mention that they openly attack France and Germany all the time.
Calling the EU "the Fourth Reich" - that's hostile. Showing Angela Merkel with a Hitler mustache as was done by the British Media - even on the front page - that is an affront to Germany and an insult to every single German. Neither the Media nor the British government ever apologized for this btw.
Threatening to send warships into French waters as was proposed by Priti Patel when she was in Johnsons government - that's not only hostility, that would have been an act of war.
And on a more personal level: British tourists harrassing spanish people working in hospitality - IN SPAIN! - for speaking spanish...that is beyond ludicrous, as is the case of that british Leave voter who went on vacation in Spain and then complained that there where "foreigners" at the hotel; she demanded a refund from the hotel (of course the didn't get anything).
Or what about the young italian woman who wanted to visit her sister (who is married to a Brit and lives in England) but was arrested by British border controlls, detained for two days and then deported back to Italy only because she wanted to help her sister babysitting with her own niece...something the British Border agents interpreted as "illegal work". That's not a singular incident either - thousands of young EU citizens have been treated in this way over the last few years.
Or what about that murder case where a bunch of teenage Brits murdered a polish immigrant because he was speaking polish on the Phone.
The list goes on and on.
As long as this British Exceptionalism mindset a remnant of the days of the British Empire which are still a living memory for older Brits - is still a thing this will not change. Let's hope that your generation doesn't fall into that same trap.
@@Diontb You are kidding yourself.
Read my lips: No more exemptions, exceptions or opt-outs!!! This ship has sailed.
Yes indeed. The UK has left cherry picking so let's start with cherry picking again while the first steps are made to rejoin. Obviously Anand still hasn't learned his lessons yet. The EU might not be the same which btw nobody of the public understands (talking about referendums) what is far more important is that the UK is not the same. It will have much less leverage to justify any further cherry picking.
As an EU citizen, I have say its 'too soon'. The gratuitously insulting carry-on of Farage, Widdecombe et al, particularly as they departed the EP, is stll fresh in the memory. Until all of these Brexit nutters are comprehensively vanquished, then it's a clear 'Non' from me.
As much as I sympathise with you, I don't think penalising an entire population of ordinary citizens because of a few extremists is a particularly proportionate response.
@andrewbuchanan217 17,4m extremists and 15m that could not bother to vote, topped off with 15m that voted mostly to remain in the sm/CU.
There's only a handful that stand behind the goals of the EU.
Simply ask "do you accept €, Schengen, no Rebates" and you're as good as alone in the room.
@@ab-ym3bf And don't you dare even mention "ever closer union" although it is the VERY FIRST sentence in the preamble of the Treaty of Rome which is the founding paper of the EEC, the predecessor of the EU - and even Churchill said in his Zurich speech that we need a kind of "United States of Europe". Not many Britons see any of that as positive.
@@andrewbuchanan217 If only they were "a few". Let's face it. They said the quiet part out loud for at least 52% of the population. And how many times have we heard even Remainers say "I voted with my head, not my heart"? Oh, really? And just what was your heart telling you that you felt the need to overrrule...?
In France they have LePen, In Italy Salvini etc...all EU states have a Farage.
Highly unlikely for at least a generation , 25 years. Frankly, existing EU members would be very suspicious , given the British past behavior, of any British application.
Then again we also used to be the 5th largest economy on the Planet, and the 2nd Largest in the EU itself.
So any sensible person in any Country that doubted the wisdom of taking us back, just needs to tell their Government "Close your Eyes and think of the Money !"
@@tomsdaddy most certainly not on the terms that previously applied and that includes Thatchers rebate. Continental Europeans see no reason whatsoever for special conditions or exceptional treatment ("cherry picking")) for the UK. You are delusional.
@@tomsdaddy The USA is the first economy, then the EU, then China, then Germany then the UK, what is missing from that analysis is that sa soon as you go bast China most economies are tiny!! Being in the EU ghives massive advantages of sheer scale. We are now alone in relative ters and not doing well!! Stagflation Brexit Britannia is nothing like what was promissed in 2016 by the Leave cabal, the rich have got richer, that si true! As Rees Mogg etc know whith their £ shorting and off shore-ing to evade tax; that the EU was moving to counter!!!
@@michaelmazowiecki9195 It doesn't matter whether I am delusional or not, what matters is the answer people will give to the question "Am I better off now, in 'brexit britain', than I was before Brexit ?"
And the answer will be a resounding 'No !'
Because for all the brexiters' BS, and no matter how high the price of rejoining, - we will STILL be better off as a 'once again' Member of the Biggest, Richest, Free Trade Bloc on the Planet, than we are now, outside of it.
@@tomsdaddy "So any sensible person in any Country that doubted the wisdom of taking us back, just needs to tell their Government "Close your Eyes and think of the Money !""
The UK left in a very unpleasant way, costing the EU billions of dollars. The UK's attitude towards the EU up until now hasn't been very positive either: UK still grumbling about the TCA, not upholding their part of agreements (such as the TCA) still blaming the EU for many things that the UK government itself is to blame for. Why on earth would citizens of EU countries want such a nation back? Just for the money, you think? People in the EU haven't become poorer due to the UK leaving. Some became richer, due to new business opportunities in EU counties, resulting from Brexit. So nobody's worrying about less money due to the UK leaving. The general sense is: one less troublemaker within the union.
It is pointless sitting here in the UK looking at things in a parochial fashion. The EU member states determine whether an application from us should be entertained - unanimously. Many EU members have done well out of Brexit - relocation of businesses, access to centrally organised loans for reconstruction - and know that the return of the UK could threaten these things in future. Supposedly our military and security assistance was a key loss to the EU, but we've shown through Ukraine that if things kick off in Europe we'll offer full assistance regardless of any tie ups on sn EU level. Yes they're happy we've rejoined Horizon and some members would prefer us to be in Erasmus, but essentially we have nothing significant to offer that would justify agreeing to readmit us. We're out and we'll stay out, and most member states are probably quite happy with that arrangement.
If more Brits had realistic views like yours I would change my mind about being opposed to allowing the UK "rejoin".
@@fintonmainz7845I agree!!!
You sound like a Minnesotan. I cannot speak for the EU, but your attitude is encouraging.
@@JohnnyinMN A Minnesotan? I didn't once hear him say, "Ohhh, Mr. Grant!"... :D
Thank you for the realism. It's so tiresome listening to people who think it's the EU 's job to make Brexit work.
Wow. As an American, I am simply astounded on how they don’t understand? They still think they can almost ‘just’ join with just travel again. I would be on my knees saying everything correctly. “Maybe we don’t want to be a member, but move to a ‘cakest’ position.” Are you kidding me?!?!
“We can opt out. We’re an island.” Umm. Nice try, but no more deals.
You can have your old master back.
@@jcvastgoed1490 Nah, we declared our independence from the British in 1776 and stuck it through not whinning about it 4 years after because we longer got the economic support. Independence isn't free you work and build it.
@@Itravelbackintime Independent is not free, but union is also not free. It requires certain commitments.
@@exander77 You have to start somewhere. America did in worse circumstances with hardly a self sustaining economy after declaring it's independence from the British. The UK today has a better advantage economically estanblished than what America was faced with right after 1776.. You must fight to keep your sovereignty. London is the capitol of the UK not Brussels. If an island like Japan can stay independent so can the UK. Look at Austrailia and they aren't part of the EU. Like America you have to work to build your independence. Nothing is for I agree. I mean common The British Empire once managing other countires around the world (that wasn't easy).. It's only an island you have to focus on. The UK has a proven track record historically of independence and even one time global dominance. So yes the Uk can do this like America did. Stay strong
@@Itravelbackintime I think you need history lessons. The EU and US are entirely different. The ECSC (EU's predecessor) was born out of war that destroyed Europe, because We love killing each other here. We can't be independent here, because We will go to war with each other. All of Europe agreed to that and ECSC was established. If EU breaks down, there will be such a war in Europe likes the world never seen.
That's the main difference between Europe and US in general: US had one civil war, and it was enough (but who knows in the future). Europe was fighting each other for centuries, then 1st World War, then 2nd World War. Because there is no European nation, Europe never had an enemy that would unite it together like US had. Our enemies are within.
UK leaving was more like Texas wanting to leave US.
EU Countries wouldn't touch England and Wales with a forty foot pole!
Once bitten.....
we won't be the last to leave
@@dolmen6613 but that’s the thing - not one of the 27 countries is even considering leaving. No-one wants to be in your shoes. You’re on your own.
@@Inglese001 -we'll see.. the next EU election will tell a pretty tale
@dolmen6613 hungary will leave and Ukraine will join.
@@dolmen6613
"we won't be the last to leave"?
Yes, you will be.
Back in objective reality, there are 27 current members, and NONE of them have expressed the slightest in leaving the EU.
On the one hand, the EU has a queue of some eight or nine countries with confirmed applicant candidate status...
On the other hand, the queue to copy the UK's self-mutilating stupidity has precisely ZERO MEMBERS....
The UK is basically 'Johnny No-Mates', and that status is not likely to change.
More the question, would the EU accept them back?
That doesn't become an issue until after the UK decides it is interested in rejoining.
@@andrewwatson5324 Of course, but it's worth considering and would certainly enter into preliminary negotiations if GB demonstrated any desire to consider such. GB would want to expose itself to further international embarrassment by publicly asking for membership only to be summarily denied or unwilling to accept the terms for re-entry that would prevent a repeat occurrence as well as delineate reparations to be paid by GB to the EU member countries and length of GB's probationary status since their word can no longer be trusted till proven different.
@@theshadow5800 of course I would expect the government of the day to begin with informal discussions to work out the best way to proceed, however you can only really rely on the rules based nature of the EU, because over time politicians, governments and even the EU parliament and commission change and a fast accession is about 3 or 4 years if I remember correctly.
@@andrewwatson5324 whatever the case, they will and should make GB pay for their shenanigans.
@@theshadow5800 well, the UK won't get back all of it's opt outs or it's rebate.
No rebate, no opt-outs (maybe the £), no cherry picking, no exceptionalism, both political parties must agree on joining, the normal procedure must be followed, no express lane.
No not even the £. No more exceptions.
Definitely not the pound. It was the source of most hassle the UK caused. If they ever rejoin, the will have to be committed to the ever-closer fiscal union.
Sitting here listening to a nation of supplicants blithely musing among themselves about what rules of the club they're aching to join they will and won't have strikes me as the biggest STAY AWAY sign they could possibly be showing the EU.
I see an escape hatch
🏴
There it is !
The other EFTA members don't want you in so no.
The EU has moved forward better and faster. No one talks about Brexit anymore, there are more important issues than British whims.
As an American in Minnesota, also remember, we are a sovereign state, but can only ‘leave’ if 2/3 of the other states agree. You are FREE to leave. 😉 We never think about leaving. I love how they still think they can just strut in and cherry pick. Please treat them as any other country. No favors!!
If you want an objective gauge to the success of Brexit, ask yourself how many EU countries are even considering following the UK out of Europe? Zero!
I disagree with the statement that the UK could opt out of Shengen because Britain is an Island. Probably the most contentious issue during the Brexit process was the land border with Ireland. There are only two options to maintaining freedom of movement on the island of Ireland. Either the entire UK rejoins, or Northern Ireland becomes a permanent part of the EU. The only way that could be achieved is reunification of the island of Ireland. The NIP/ Windsor Framework is at best a stop gap agreement until such time as either of the two options occur.
From the EU point of view, they will not forget Londons unwillingness or inability to implement the NIP.
What do you want, democracy on a national level or democracy on a continental level? It is al about majority and not the majority with wich Brexit has been implemented. By the way, when the UK wants to come back the people of the UK need to be better informed about same EU. At this very moment that information level is crap.
Please also note that, beyond signing up to the acquis of Schengen, the euro, the "federal" goal, Frontex, the UK would have to accept the ATAD, i.e. the directive against tax evasion. The UK has always been a promoter of money laundering and tax evasion via its overseas territories. I doubt very much it would accept to become a clean country when Jersey, Man, etc bring so much money to it.
As a U.S. auditor for global companies, THAT’S the reason for Brexit. London financial institutions were going to be severely exposed with new financial regulations.
Not like Eire???????
new EU rules from January 2024.
Each country must meet the new revised!!!.copen hagen criteria to apply for membership.
every new incoming country must adopt the euro within five years and must therefore meet the euro criteria. Rebaits and op-outs can only be requested if they have been members for ten years or more.
the banking system must comply with the manual drawn up by the eu.
By becoming a member, the new incoming country automatically accepts the Schengen rules.
and hundreds more adjustments and new rules have been introduced. It actually means that with Brexit the UK has burned all ships behind it. Due to the Brexit application, the entire system for becoming a member of the European Union has actually been adjusted to prevent this happening again.
So becoming a member again will not be an option for the UK for the next fifty years
Hi. Thanks for your useful information. I actually wanted the UK to join the Euro right at the start. No chance of that of course. I remember at one point having loose change in French francs, Dutch guilders, Belgian francs, Luxembourg francs, Brit pounds and Deutsche Marks all in my pocket at the same time. Those were fun times. But I guess the UK may never re-apply on those terms. Silly old Brits actually. I don't have as much sympathy for them as some here seem to think :)
Jill Rutter said "the EU is open to applications for membership from any European country". That's not the whole truth though. It's open to applications from any country anywhere. Turkey has an application to join the EU. That was a key reason we voted to leave - British people didn't want free movement with a country of 125 million muslims.
The UK had a veto right within in the EU so it could block Turkey's membership (which has never been likely to happen anyway since Turkey doesn't meet the criteria) for as often and as long as it would like. Once again, you're parroting the 2016 fearmongering Brexiter nonsense that hardly anybody still believes anymore.
In theory, Turkey is a European country because part of it is in Europe.
Not in my view though.
Well, rather than scaremongering, as members the UK could have simply vetoed an application from Turkey. Instead they chose to leave the club. Turkey still isn’t a member and I don’t see them becoming one during my lifetime. So if a potential membership from Turkey was the issue, that makes Brexit even more foolish, doesn’t it?
Firstly, Turkey does not have 125 million Muslims or inhabitants and secondly, Turkey was a secular state when it received candidate status. The European Union demands that Turkey recognize Cyprus during accession negotiations, which the Turks did not do. There is no reason to deny admission to a country that meets all the criteria just because the majority are Muslim. However, Turkey never met the criteria, so the talks are on hold, if they are even revived at all.
Turkey has just slightly more chance of being accepted into the EU than Canada does.
_"British people didn't want free movement with a country of 125 million muslims."_ Oh, bullsh!t. You certainly did when YOU gave yourselves "free movement" to India. Hypocrites.
6:12 The OBR forecast is as follows: in the long run, a 15% reduction in imports and exports. Long-term productivity will be down 4 %. So why does he not acknowledge this. He is, after all, intelligent (??).
I always have this concern that Anand Menon is slightly Brexity.
Other than saying the EU has changed, Anand Menon still thinks in terms of the EU before Brexit.
Nah. He's not arguing that. He's just saying that the current wows of the UK are to do with other things more than Brexit only. Anand has always said that Brexit is a slow puncture to the economy and it's impacts are hard to detect because nobody lives in the alternate reality in which the economy is 4% larger and the exports have not been reduced. Really how a normal person feels the impact of Brexit is when traveling to the EU and how often does that happen for the majority?
He also comes from an International Relations perspective like me, so he's very clear about the EU driving a hard bargain here, because it is in the interest of members. Unlike Jill Rutter, Anand is not a British exceptionalist.
Regarding the rule taking. Yes, the rules of multiplying numbers or the acceleration of free fall can be passed there (not here), at Westminster.
And they can be either the same as in Europe or they won’t work.
Measures and standards can be passed by few hundreds of individuals at Westminster who crave to exercise their sovereignty over people in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. But they will be either the same as in Europe or… well, we can opt out of trade with Europe and ship in hormone-infested frozen rotten corpses from elsewhere. Or stop eating at all.
But yes, soreveignty rules! We make our own laws of physics! We stop migrants from taking care of our elderly and gather crops. Of course, we will! Soreveignty!
UK made its choice! Eu is my choice as a Czech fleeing from Russian invasion as a child!
What very few people do know is that in 1972 a referendum on the enlargement of the EEC has been held in France. It was basically to make sure the French would approve the UK membership inside the club. If the UK would like to rejoin, I am convinced this kind of referendum would be held by few countries in Europe. Meaning the road to ever access the EU would be a bumpy ride.
I'm quite sure the Tories will try to torpedo any effort to rejoin the EU as they can't stand to have egg on their face. I hope for the sake of the younger Brits, especially the ones that lived and worked in other EU countries, that you manage to pull it off.
A prerequisite to joining again would definitely be a strong committment by all major UK parties to want to rejoin and accept full EU membership without requesting opt-outs or rebates again. As long as the Tories have not changed fundamentally, negotiations will not even start.
You are not suggesting that the British public is coming to a conclusion that it has to have more of EU membership benefits, are you? Surely that cannot be true. (Sarcasm warning.)
In reality, the political dynamic with euro-scepticism and the far-right in the EU (plus the strategic decision made that membership benefits are for members) dictates the exact opposite. Frosty negotiated the UK out of leverage and the UK is where it is.
I agree with the comment below...the REAL question is '...would there be agreement across the EU for the UK to rejoin?' I very much doubt there would be ...even support from neighbouring Ireland, let alone France etc. is v. doubtful. Plus, by the time the UK might be 'ready', I doubt also it would be the SAME UK ...ie, there will prob be a United Ireland in some shape or form in a decade or so, not to mention Scotland and how far the EU itself will have changed. The Euro would be a pre-requisite for sure, and def. no rebates and CERTAINLY no CAKE'isms!! A long road ahead, a generation I would say and prob. a break up of the uk in the meantime.
That is a very far-sighted comment. Yes, in all likelihood some EU members could block the return of the UK. Also, it may be moot because Ireland might unite, and even Scotland might secede and apply to the EU itself (not that likely but fun to consider)
Scotland 🏴 get out asap 🇪🇺
@@louis-philippearnhem6959 If only Scotland could do that, I would be very happy. unfortunately, the EU has a rule that it can't encourage countries to break up. So Scotland has to leave the UK in a 100% legal and correct way. Those horrible government people in Westminster are making it hard for the Scots to get out. Unfortunately, the SNP hasn't done its cause any favors recently either.
Another fun question about an independent Scotland is what currency it would use. It ought to join the Euro of course. But I gather not all the Scots are sure about doing that. I guess with the (new) EU rules it would have to commit to joining the Euro in 5 years... Also, Scotland has to first exit the UK in a 100% legal way, and only then can it apply to the EU. So Scotland would have to be its own rather small country for some years while its application to the EU was considered. Here's hoping.
You are not wanted. God grief you left.
"Would the UK ever overturn Brexit and rejoin the EU?"
No, for two reasons;
a) The EU has NO mechanism whereby a previous member could return to the status quo ante after leaving.
b) The UK CANNOT "...overturn Brexit and rejoin the EU...", because that is not in the UK's power. The EU's member states decide which country(s) can become members.
Regarding Schengen, the claim that the UK is an island so can secure an exemption, overlooks, AS ALWAYS, the existence of Northern Ireland(NI).
Ireland would be quite happy to see the UK obliged to join Schengen, because that would allow us to join as well....
At the end of the day, the European Commission would be utterly unlikely to even open the envelope containing the UK's FOURTH membership application for the foreseeable future. A period of between 30 to 50 years seems reasonable....
Any future UK membership will be a normal membership, not the cosseted, semi-detached model previously enjoyed by theUK, with all its opt-outs, rebates and special treatment.
There can be NO return to that. Think of it as 'Paradise Lost', if you will....
Before the UK re-enters the EU, the EU needs to be changed even more. It shall become a multi tiers EU which means that the UK can enter on a lower level. Veto-ing shall come to an end ( countries such as Hungary need to be controled). Countries that want to do more together shall take the lead.
"It shall become a multi tiers EU"
It won't any time soon.
God I hope not. One of the worst ideas I've ever heard.
You are either in or out, and nothing in between. No one expects the USA or any other country to completely open up its internal market for 3rd countries, so why expect the EU to do so?
When you consruct a house you start with a proper fundation. Not with building a roof.
For the UK to join the EU would require unanimous support of all EU countries.
That's not going to happen.
I'd like to see a single piece of evidence for that
@@BiggusDiggusable you show me evidence that Donald Trump isn't going to the next Miss World first.
@@BiggusDiggusable Two pieces of evidence:
Some marbles and a rock.
@@marinusvos Lol! I really hope you aren't being serious. The marbles will be returned and you are delusional if you think Spain will object.
@@BiggusDiggusable Spain will object. Why? They hold the all the cards and there is nothing the UK, or anybody else for that matter, can do about it.
Pointless debate. We are not going back.
I'm up to rejoin and use the Euros.
I rejected an offer from one of the top US consulting companies because I got an offer from a start-up. The start-up offer fell through. Then shamelessly I called back the first company.
It did not go well. They pretty much told me I will never be able to join them again.
I certainly hope this principle applies to any misconceived future UK application to join the EU. The British people don't support it. We voted to leave.
@@JupiterThunder So you speak for the British people do you? What presumption! What arrogance! What allows you to claim that the "British people don't support it"> Have you seen any recent opinion polls in the UK about the failure of Brexit and the majority now wanting to rejoin? Or have you been living under a rock? not impressed by your comment.
Thanks for your interesting comment. And did the top US consulting company lose out by not hiring you in the end? I think so. They should have realized that you were an opportunity and it was in your perfect right to explore the opportunity with the start-up. That kind of emotional reaction to being rejected once leads to poor decision-making in the future. I sincerely hope that the EU will rise above that petty tit-for-tat attitude. Yes, I have definitely seen a lot of anti-UK sentiment from people who feel scorned by the Brexit decision. But they should remember that the vote was rather close 48-52% and a lot of young people didn't even vote. Views have changed in the UK now and so have the demographics. Shame if the EU behaves like your stupid short-sighted consulting company.
@@russmarkham2197 Big companies don't behave like that. They have such a huge applicant pool that they can hire someone else with good skills. They don't have the time to think about someone who didn't join them. And huge corporations don't have feelings. But if you reject their offer you show that you are not committed to them. So why should there be a committment later? It is a rational decision, not an emotional one.
Same with the UK and the EU. Don't let politicians' statements about "being welcome" etc. misguide you. That's just diplomatic and polite so they keep room to manouver. The EU is not emotional or even vindictive. It acts and decides for their interest. What can they gain and what do they have to give? Do they think the EU would work better with the applicant country or would it cause trouble (again) as soon as it is a member? Trust plays a huge role in that and I think the UK lost a lot of that since the infamous referendum.
@@JupiterThunder I support a second referendum
Before rejoining the pound needs to sink to half its value vis-à-vis the dollar (as it did between 1945 and 1967 and again between 1974 and today). Do you see a pattern here?
Ironically it would require a referendum in Ireland haha
👌😉 Give ‘em hell. They shouldn’t even think or mention opt outs. Remember: EU Equality = British Oppression 🙄
One wonders how that would go😂
No it wouldn't.
Free travel only applies to EEA citizens in Schengen. It’s not open borders!!!
Exactly right
Crawling back impoverished humiliated having to show our contrition by accepting everything and asking for nothing. Who's laughing now Nigel?
"It would take some incredibly skillful negotiating by the British"
😮😮
ie. 'Not done by Brexiters !' 😁
On track record we know what that means.
@@PanglossDrLet’s give them a fake telephone number where they can call 📞
It’ll take a miracle.
@@tomsdaddyie not done by the British.
To add to the other points made regarding possible conditions, reforms, etc., the UK may have to make in order to rejoin: the UK and Belarus are the only European countries that still exclusively use "first past the post" voting. Another example of UK archaic and antiquated traditions that are out of step with EU practice.
With the migration issue still not handled and Labour at the helm, britain is doomed
on his way to perdition. What european country does want you to rejoin ? Just as
with ukraine, you will have all our symphathy but you can do this on your own .
Geting rid of freedom of movement was one of the reasons of Brexit. After Brexit UK has higher migration. How can you explain this?
Skills gab, they cannot manage without educated labour from abroad, because their own tertiary education policy is dysfunctional and will take at least a decade to fix.
@@samhartford8677 Yes but they were getting labour from Europe everyone was opposing it. They get now from mainly commonwealth countries, net migration even higher and no one is opposing it and seems everybody is happy. Is it not anti European agenda?
@@SK-hv3zn Nah, they are not at all happy about the 745.000 immigrants in one year. EU net migration is negative and there were the Ukrainians and the people from Hong Kong, but work-based immigration was still up from before. They are not at all happy. And let's not mention the boats.
We should improve relationship with our neighbours, but Brexit is here to stay.
probably right. I also don't see how the UK can easily rejoin at least for now.
We?
The former remain crowd aren't paying enough attention to events on the continent. The tower of Babel is not a universal salve to our problems, they have their own problems.
All the bright young Italians serving you coffee at Pret won't resolve the underlying faults in our values that brought about the referendum in the first place. If you want to rejoin maybe we should seriously get our own house in order first.
Yes
There is no hope of that.
Great if they will have us. Someone is going to adopt us shortly if we are to retain any sort of adequate living standards. Demise is our current disease.
You are very well where you are. And we LOVE that. Good riddance!!
Thank God we got rid of that awkward racist uncle. This was a toxic relationship into which we don't want to go back to.
Long live DeGaulle!!!
If the EU changes rules associated with the UK/EU trade relationship and the UK does not change rules to match, then that is also divergence which will make trade more difficult. So to avoid divergence the UK must be a rule taker.
Neither party can unilaterally change the rules of the mutual relationship.
Divergence happens when the UK does not copy-paste EU rules.
@@ab-ym3bf yes and no. The video suggests that divergence can be avoided by the UK not changing UK law, however I was trying to point out (as per your comment) that the UK has to change laws to match the EU (aka copy and paste) in order to avoid divergence.
@@andrewwatson5324 yes, but those are not rules that change the trading relationship. The trading relationship is documented and agreed upon in the TCA. No unilateral changes to the TCA are possible.
The rest, we agree.
@@ab-ym3bf In essence the TCA says that divergence of UK and EU rules makes trading more difficult. I think the term level playing field was bandied around.
Irrelevant. If the UK wants to sell into the single market, it has to follow the rules of that market. Companies are finding that grim reality every day. My shop, My rules!
No more British politicians in the EU Parliament. That ship has sailed. Get a Norway style deal as rule takers and get on with your life.
Oh dear - Out means out.
"Recent polls show a majority of people want to re-join the EU." I mean: it's not an *overwhelming support for rejoining* now, is it?
Rejoining: 33% strongly support - 18% somewhat support - 13% don't know - 11% somewhat oppose - 25% strongly oppose. *So 51% want back in. 2016: 52% wanted out* . 'Big difference' (not).
What does a poll in the EU say? You know, the EU decides if the UK will be allowed to join, so it is much more relevant ;-)
@@RealMash I don't know. I think the EU only does polls on subjects relevant to the EU. Brexit is a done deal.
Such a poll is meaningless if it doesn't ask the right question.
Change the question to "would you like to apply to join the EU and accept Schengen, the € and no opt outs" and those numbers will really be "overwhelming".
For not becoming a member.
You assume that don't knows will vote. They didn't in the past. So that makes it more 65% Rejoin and 35% Stay Out. The don't knows did not vote in 2016, otherwise according to your logic we would still be in by a large majority. Big difference...yes. Huge difference indeed.
@@stephenconway2468 I don't assume anything. Just comparing percentages while understanding a poll and an actual referendum vote are not the same. But from my personal perspective as a EU citizen, these figures do not invoke al whole lot of trust. This doesn't convince me at all that the UK wants back, all-in. It only tells me that the negative impact of Brexit is being felt more, and by more people.
Were these 'recent polls' done by the same pollsters who assured us that Remain would win the Referendum?
Would the UKs application ever be granted? Not likely.
I wish
The EU wouldn’t want to touch this nasty toxic island with a barge pole again! That’s the biggest barrier to us rejoining
Never.
Everyone is talking as if the EU is going to be around for all that long ;)
So when has the prophet said this time the EU is going to end? Next Tuesday?
You people are ridiculous. Grow up. The EU is currently more important to its members than it has ever been given the geopolitical upheaval globally.
Overturning Brexit is one thing, rejoing the EU is another.
There are some surprising comments made. The first is that is EU is different from few years ago, and that is correct. Is the UK the same as few years ago? I would argue that it is now less influential and incapable of taking long term decisions in any fields. The second the gentleman argues that Brexit will inevitably eventually, maybe in 50 years deliver the famous unicorns promised during the referendum and everyone is going to be so ecstatic that EU will not have any appeal. Ok maybe but why have they have not materialised yet? Why in an undetermined future?
We need another referendum
Addy is starting to sound like Nigel’s puppet!
That´s correct. I didnt know he was a Brexiteer.
I understand that besed on complexity of the issues, UK may de facto re-join EU. I dont see another possibility.
There is no such fe facto option available. Turns out that dishing out membership benefits to non-members is not in the interest of members.
@@samhartford8677 It is possible when U.K. compromises and has realistic expectations.
@@SK-hv3zn No. This is not anymore about what the UK wants. 27 countries will decide whether they want to waste their time on UK psychodrama about the EU or not. Only one country out of 27 can veto it and none of those conversations about rejoining anything will not start until the Tories will want to rejoin...
@@SK-hv3zn
"It is possible when U.K. compromises and has realistic expectations"?
No, it simply ISN'T possible, regardless of whether the UK compromises or not.
The EU has NO legal mechanism whereby a Third Country, which is what the UK has been since Brixit, "...may de facto re-join EU."
NONE of the 27 member states have the remotest interest in introducing such a mechanism, because it would not be in their interests to do so.
Firstly because that would mean opening up the foundational treaties, and any changes would have to ratified by more than 31 national and regional parliaments, as well as the European Parliament. The ratification process would involve at least two national referenda, so just NOT happening.
And secondly, no member state is happy about extending membership privileges to non-members.
This notion would not even make it on to the European Council's agenda.....
@@gloin10 Ok! to be clear on de-facto membership. I meant by de-facto membership U.K. joins custom union and single market accept free movement of goods and labour but not be part of EU. In but out…
They might rejoin if they were accepted but it will not be in the same way again - I expect some kind of associate membership might be there but there will be conditions like about jo8ningvthe Euro and situation within of Northern Ireland and Gibraltar?
There is no such thing as a permanent "associate member". In or out, that's it.
The UK is in a no-win situation and cannot advance its economy until it has full free trade with the European Union with full freedom of movement of all peoples of Europe.
The problem is the UK is a centralised union of 4 different nations.
While Wales and Scotland would be much better becoming full members of the European Union, England currently has political forces in the opposite direction.
The only solution to this issue and most other problems faced on these islands is for the current UK to be replaced by an open confederation of independent countries: Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland (if it doesn't decide to be part of an united Ireland). They would each be independent countries as recognised by the UN as members but share a voluntary union with the other British Isle nations and beyond.
These new countries will have their own political cultures which could be more acceptable for EU member as individuals.
For example, Wales and Scotland could rejoin EFTA, EEA and the EU more quicker than waiting for the English to sort themselves out and remove the problems the UK has: Meanwhile, saving the economies.
Until it has trade with the CPTPP you mean.
Uhm, what would that "voluntary" union with England entail in your view?
The casual way Brits throw around phrases like "join the EFTA"...
They really have not a clue how organizations like ehe EU or EFTA operate.
@@Buckets1000 I'm impressed that they managed to spell EU.
French, Irish, Greeks and Spanish (to name a few) are happy to have the UK back 🥳 Oh wait 🤔😆🤣😂
The Dutch were also delighted to hear of plans for an invasion.
@@ab-ym3bf How could I forget that?? 🤦🏻♂️ The list is EU27 wide 🥳
@@verttikoo2052 I'm here to remind you, don't worry.
We could always legislate to not be a European country
....like we want to legislate that Rwanda is a safe country!!! Bonkers! The UK is a European country, as is Ireland, or Greece!
And that two plus two is 24.5 😂
They wouldn’t want us.
We’re out and we’re staying out!
The question as posed implies that the u.k. has some sort of control of the question, I.e.o k so we left ,our decision .,now we will rejoin ,our decision,... The first we leave our decision yes, but rejoin is not your decision , that decision is in the hands of the member states, and we all know just how the rest of is miss those brexiteers with their little union flags waving in our parliament,, ... the continent is now isolated from the canter of all wisdom of ,the u.kippers, the faragista and the rees troglodytes and the empire loyalists,, how will we ever do without this formidable body of world leaders,, will drive the u.k. into a new era of world domination and leadership.. and the e,u. will be left crying into bleak future that lies ahead. Without england i shudder to think just how we will manage, please discuss.. CETERUM CENSEO IMPERIUM BRITANNIUM DELENDUM EST SUPPORT UKRAINE FREE AND AT PEACE
we would have to eat a lot of humble pie. when we can elect a repesentitive of the people, unique to that trading block, then not be so stupid as to elect and send farage, and in a decadent and fading empire, where an exploited population is so suspect to tub thumping, these things are a ling way away
Would the EU accept the UK? Under what conditions? Brexit was a generational decision. Try 2050! Better negotiate small concessions over the next few years.
Why ?
Are you paying ?
Are you really happy ruining the life chances (compared to ours in the Single Market) for an entire generation of our kids ?
No thanks.
@@tomsdaddy First, we did not ruin the life chances of your kids, you did that all by yourself and endangered the life chances of our kids in the process..
Second, Brexit did cost us all whole lot of money. We are now slowly earning some of that money back. Until we have all money back, our kids will have to pay the difference.
Third, you lot are already squabbling for 7 years. How long will you keep procrastinating and keep ruining the life chances of your kids in the process?
Four, we have our own priorities and once you have made up your mind we will see how your request will fit in our priorities at that moment in time.
Five, we are not a charitable organisation but a block to protect the interests of our members rather hen accommodate the whims of the English voter.
@@tomsdaddy It was a UK decision that ruined their chances and the EU has no obligation to help the UK out of the mess they created upon themselves. The EU looks after its member states and their citizens, not after third countries' citizens.
I personally would like if our British friends would rejoin. This would not be a small thing. It would change history. I think without the UK in the European countries would be closer together, may be one big state in may be in 50-100 years. With the UK in the EU it probably goes into another direction. This would not necessarily be bad, just different. Fact is that with every year passing it becomes more difficult for the UK to rejoin.
Hello, out of interest which country are you from? What do people think about Brexit where you live? I see what you are saying. But 50-100 years is a lifetime away. We just don't know what could happen. Maybe the EU will have fragmented by then. I really believe Britain is not going to be the last member state to leave. Take a look at the Netherlands and France with Geert Wilders and Le Pen, they are Eurosceptic. The right is rising in Europe and will take about 1/3 of the seats in the upcoming EU elections.
With the right rising, we will be seeing an EU more focused on trade and less focused on political integration. I do not recall any politician seriously talking about leaving recently -partly because of the UK example. Personally, I do not like what EU has become (too long to explain here) and it has a high lével of corruption too. But after Brexit, it is crystal clear we should change it from within.
You conveniently ignore that the EU works much better since Brexit.
Of course you're entitled to your opinion and many agree with you but it's hard to see the UK application getting the unanimously support required from member states.
@@AC-tn9hg neither Wilders not Le Pen favour leaving the EU.
How is it possible to be so illinformed about your neighbours?
Nope. What we will see is Norway style agreements to access to single market without freedom of movement.
Nope, already ruled out by the EU and Efta.
Come on Mr. Farage please come and be an MEP again, we need you LOL.
10 years talking to Brexit STOP please you are very heavi. The EU is better without us!!
Speaking as a 2016 remainer, I think now the political shifts to the Right within the EU that are growing make membership , even if feasible, much less attractive than it was back in 2016. There is the rise of the Right in Italy, France, Spain, and even Germany. There is also the frank illiberalism of hungary and the conflicted situation in Poland. Britain may better weather the storm of a rising neo-fascism outside the European union, than pulled into a European vortex of spreading authoritarianism. The EU is cahnging. It is important not to idealise it - as a kind of unacknowledged centrist utopia. Increasingly it is becoming nothing of the sort.
Tory is a right-wing, even semi-fascist party. Why are you upset about what happens in the EU?
@robertbrennan
"Britain may better weather the storm of a rising neo-fascism outside the European union, than pulled into a European vortex of spreading authoritarianism"?
Ha!
Britain is suffering from its own, homegrown "...rising neo-fascism...", not to mention sliding into a "...vortex of spreading authoritarianism" facilitated by the UK's lack of a written constitution!
We can only hope that the EU does not move so far to the right that it becomes a problem for a socially democratic future Britain to consider re-joining. All you say about Britain is of course true, and should this be mirrored in Europe any memebrship would add a legitimation and reinforcement to "post liberal"tendencies in the UK. Having awritten Constitution does not protect nations bent on fascism from proceeding down that line. To an extent the "custom and practice" of British constitutional practice may be a better brake. These are dangerous times. There is not going to be an "off the shelf" solution to the crisis of Western democracy.
But suppose each of us had to pay an EU tax of £500-00 per year just as we make Tax and NI contributions,
then how many would be so keen to re-join?
@@markb9983 Twisted, manic, delusional rot. Instead of UK govt. handing over £20+ billion every year to the Brussels greed, gravy train,...divvy it up, could be £500 per year per person which would give a cutting edge of accountability....no taxation without representation....haha...you go ballistic at such a sensible, democratic concept. Grow up you daft benny.
@@PollieBrooon-cz5yg
17 million Leave voters:
We save ourselves the EU contribution of 8 to 15 billion pounds a year (varies from year to year)
All the other intelligent Brits:
But then we won't get the trade concessions that EU members have with each other. How much is that?
Calculation by Bloomberg for 2022:
UK Brexit loss: £100 billion
Calculation by Cambridge Econometrics for 2023
UK Brexit loss: 140 £billion
The intelligent Brits:
That's daft if we lose several times what we paid to the EU.
8 billion people minus the 17 million Leave voters:
Yeah, no one else is as stupid on the planet as the 17 million Leave voters. No one who went to school could possibly be that stupid.
17 million Leave voters:
Yes we are, we are that stupid despite going to school
You don't and never did. And I find it quite sickening that the only thought the English have concerning joining the EU (or living the EU) is money, money you receive, money you think you might lose....
@@marleneMS UK was the second highest
contributor to the EUSSR,...paid in £300 billion net. during 47 wasted years.....but if we EACH had to pay the membership fee, then there would be a very sharp cutting edge of accountability.
We'd want to know how wisely our money was being spent!
@PollieBrooon-cz5yg and is used wisely since you left the EU? In addition, I am sure you know pretty well that Britain did not pay 3000000 per week to the EU, even you lying Johnson admitted that. And I think your answer also shows that you don't have the faintest idea what the EU is and how it works. In my experience though, that is true for most of the english
This discussion is like listening to people who still have their heads in the sand and are still living in 2015. It’s not going to happen, absolutely no chance, no way would the UK accept Schengen and the Euro, and that’s before we consider the obscene contributions to CAP to suit France, and to top it off, Germany is on its arse. This chat about the EU accepting us is hilarious, we won’t even be applying.
Rest assured we dont want you back.
And you asked to come in, votes, warts and all.
So no trespassing, thank you very much.
@@inigoromon1937 Rest assured the feeling is mutual, you’ll have to find some other poor sap of a country to prop up your farmers now. Oh and BTW, de Gaulle talked the talk while he fled to our country, and hid like a coward while the rest of the country suffered, or worse collaborated with the Germans and rounded up the Jews, you are welcome to each other.
Agree with the furry part, England will probably not accept the € or Schengen.
And that is where any application will end. The rest of your "considerations" are just bullshit.
But it is always funny to see and hear English "experts" talking among themselves showing their arrogance when they completely forget the EU makes up its own mind, not the ones debating.
The only reason for a return would be the fact that the UK is in a process of impoverishment without EU membership. This is characterised by the high Brexit losses:
Calculation by Bloomberg for 2022:
UK Brexit loss: £100 billion
Calculation by Cambridge Econometrics for 2023
UK Brexit loss: 140 £billion
Every year: Record deficit trade with EU, every year the deficit gets bigger and bigger. Almost £100 billion last year.
In a few years, the UK will be teetering towards national bankruptcy.
@@ichbinbluna3504 Absolute bollocks.
The EU has changed but so has the UK, the younger generation is far more in favour of the EU and I don't think people are as precious about the pound as they were when the Queen was alive.
After 5 or 10 years of a Labour Government with a far more EU friendly attitude then opinions in both the UK and the EU may have change dramatically and re-joining might not be anywhere near as contentious as it is now.
Many put their hope in Labour but seem to forget Labour never has been EU friendly.
Maybe in 10 years time a female lesbian pope will also not be so contentious.
@@AlexGys9 I suspect it is now.
@@ab-ym3bf yes, that would be lovely.
We ain't ever going back in the EU and anyone who believes otherwise is completely deluded.
The EU is still in its infancy. I doubt it will reach puberty.
You clearly have no clue. The single market is much more integrated than the internal US or Chinese markets for its members. That's why it is the world's largest single market.
Some in these comments have said that the EU has no incentive to allow the UK to rejoin (if ever the UK becomes more sincerely committed to the EU). This is not true. The economic benefit of the EU (and the Euro by the way) derives largely from the large size of the EU single market (and the part of that in the Eurozone). When the UK left, the EU single market became smaller. The UK has a substantial domestic market. That most certainly hurt the EU. For example German exporters who exported to the UK have suffered. The UK was hurt much more than the EU, but the EU was most certainly hurt also. By the way, the UK used to champion wise economic policy in the EU, to help the single market to be more efficient and more beneficial, and that the EU has also lost. The UK is also still reasonably prosperous and resourceful compared with some of the smaller EU member countries. The EU lost that benefit. Germany by the way was on balance very sorry to see the UK leave. France less so for selfish national reasons. I could also mention the loss of political influence that both the UK and the EU have suffered by not working closely together. That kind of thing encourages aggression from large neighbors to the East who see a weaker Europe overall (we all know who) which has hugely damaged the EU. So the EU would clearly benefit if the UK would wise-up and be honest about where its future should be - Back in the EU
Overinflating the UK, its economy and importance again? The EU has moved on and the UK is no priority for it. Economywise the EU lost a bit while the UK lost a lot. But more important is that the EU won politically. It works much better since Brexit. No, there is no benefit the UK could give the EU. One troublemaker is enough, no need for another one.
@@Harry-tb8yo Probably needless to say that I strongly disagree that there is no benefit the UK could give to the EU. Doesn't seem like you listened to me at all. I do agree that the EU lost much less than the UK. I also wish the EU well. I am very pro-EU. But I also don't think Brexit was a political win for the EU. Yes, the UK experience after Brexit is a strong warning of the bad consequences of leaving the EU. But Brexit also plays into the hands of far-right populists in EU member states. What is the current political situation in the Netherlands now? I have not been following the last few days but was concerned by the result of the election there. Populism is not far short of power in France either. No EU country is as immune to this as you so confidently seem to think. Anyway, I rest my case. I gave many arguments why the EU should consider a new UK application carefully and not indulge in stupid tit-for-tat punishment of the UK for Brexit. I also don't think the UK will rejoin anytime soon. More's the pity. Definitely a loss for the EU.
@@russmarkham2197 My personal observation is much different and several other people I regularly speak to shar that observation. Of course there is no objective measure on how the EU works but in my view the cohesion within the EU and the process for making desicions has improved a lot. The UK alwaays resisted further political integration, Cameron even spoke it out loud in 2016. That's a mindset I don't see to go away anytime soon so of course the EU will be wary of the UK's committment to the EU. From what I read and hear the UK hasn't changed its view and still sees the EU just as a trading bloc. Therefore it is predictable that the UK will again block further political integration if it became a member again. That might change in the future but as of now the chances of the UK joining the EU are low.
What arguments did you give? Just some things without substance, platitudes like "EU and UK are better together" and the like but I am still waiting for things the UK could give the EU. Things the EU doesn't have and could not get without the UK. What are those things?
The EU is about much more than money.
De Gaulle was right.
The Brits did not fit in (to be overpolite).
@@fintonmainz7845 whatever. Never did like De Gaulle very much.
Just look at the monumental waste of young British life in two European world wars. Absolutely tragic.
And not a word of thanks or gratitude from the beleaguered Europeans. So hostile and selfish.....and just plain nasty.
Stupid lies!
Thanks for all the sincere and thoughtful comments on whether the EU should allow the UK to rejoin, if it ever applies. There are some very simple things that the UK would offer the EU, many of which I already mentioned, but here is some more background. The UK is a European country that is quite close to the EU both physically and culturally (There is of course the small issue of the English channel hehe). That alone makes the UK a desirable EU member and should be quite enough for the EU to take the UK seriously if it re-applied. As I mentioned, the UK still has more weight and more resources and capability than many of the smaller EU members. The UK also has the ability to pay its share for EU programs and actually still has some good ideas that the EU would benefit from. The UK also has the financial expertise of the city of London. Yes, I quite understand that the EU wants to take over all Euro-clearing, and I would too. But having London inside the EU was a great benefit for the EU and would also be in the future. And as to the point about the UK being a nuisance inside the EU I disagree. There is plenty of dissent and debate now within the EU. The EU is therefore working on having different levels of EU membership. There would be the inner circle of the Eurozone. Then countries who want to be in the single market and customs union and have free labor movement would be in the next circle. Then there are those that just want a trading block. Maybe like the UK. So actually the EU is well aware that not every member country may want to be in the Euro or have complete political union. (Actually I think the UK should join the Euro but that's another topic for another time.) Then there are many other scientific and cultural benefits that would come to both sides. The lack of freedom of movement now is a terrible loss for both the UK and the EU. I think some people are far too wrapped up in a blame game about Brexit. Please remember that the Brexit vote was only a narrow win for the Leave campaign. Things are changing now in the UK. The UK and the EU would greatly benefit by having a much stronger joint defense agreement that does not totally rely on NATO. Having said all this, I agree that the UK will likely not rejoin the EU anytime soon.
Entitled nonsense.
All eligible countries have the same opportunity to apply for accession status. There is no correlation between size of economy, weight, resources, capability, having good ideas or other imagined qualities, and countries being granted accession status
The EU is not working on having different levels of EU membership. A tiered EU was put forward as a possible future in an academic paper by a group of experts, none of whom are EU office holders
.
"The UK and the EU would greatly benefit..."
To paraphrase Michel Barnier, the EU will decide what benefits it.
"The lack of freedom of movement now is a terrible loss for both the UK and the EU"
How is it a terrible loss for the EU? EU citizens can travel, work, study, and settle, freely, in 27 countries, instead of 28.
@@frankoneill5675 unless you're Irish, in which case it's still 28.
@@fintonmainz7845 Entitled to what exactly? My opinion? Why not address the arguments instead of making such a cheap toxic reply. As I mentioned, perhaps the UK is better off out of the EU if you are representative of what the EU is like these days.
@@frankoneill5675 And your comment on freedom of movement or lack thereof reveals indeed your personal toxicity towards the UK. I am sorry to get a really visceral dose of that from you. It is a learning experience. I maintain however, that it is a great pity that cultural exchanges between the EU and the UK which were once so easy are no longer. Clearly it's not a loss for toxic little you though.
Over my dead body.
It would be in the interests of the EU as a whole to re-admit a sincerely pro-EU UK. But I doubt that the UK will sincerely stop lying to itself and sincerely change its mind and realize the huge benefits of the EU and the benefits of being "at the heart of Europe". The biggest economic benefit of the EU is the large size of its single market. So the EU and the UK both lost a great deal due to Brexit. The UK belongs at the heart of Europe in my view, but getting there seems almost impossible from here.
The UK never wanted to be close to the heart, only close to wallet. The UKs populace are the Ferengi of Europe. I don't like the Ferengi.
Mhm, sincerely. Do you have a Bridge to sell, too?
One only belongs to the heart of an organization if one is behind the goals of that organization.
And since the goal is ever oser union, all members are the heart, not just a few. As long as the UK does not get that, it has non place in the EU.
"it would be in the interest" is the usual, fact free English claim. Either come with proper arguments or not use unsubstanciated platitudes like this.
And no, the EU did not loose a "great deal" with brexit. Only the UK did.
The big issue is not Brexit, but rather the end of populist right wing extremism in the UK. Once that set of emperor's clothes are managed, then the UK might be able to move forward. The EU is not the biggest stumbling block.
I haven't changed my mind one bit i would still vote no
To even think of rejoining the EU would be a giant step backwards for the UK...just as joining it was unnecessary.
The UK had its hands untied at Brexit and became free to trade with any country around the world...British politics has failed to take advantage of this and a rejoin cry is nothing but a cover for failure...
Sad to witness a giant trading nation wishing to rejoin a Union that itself has its days numbered...
Most developed countries are already in one trading bloc or another. Trading blocks by mandates are protectionist. If not protectionist why have a trade agreement ?
Delusional.
We must be talking about different countries. The UK is not a giant trading nation, nor were there any restrictions on trading with non-EU countries while a member.
Inform yourself to save yourself some humiliation.
@@dantownsend4246countries are protectionist as well. The USA is even (slightly) more protectionist than the EU.
Facts vs dumb lies
Calculation by Bloomberg for 2022:
UK Brexit loss: £100 billion
Calculation by Cambridge Econometrics for 2023
UK Brexit loss: 140 £billion
Every year: Record deficit trade with EU, every year the deficit gets bigger and bigger. Almost £100 billion last year.
In a few years, the UK will be teetering towards national bankruptcy.
Scotland Wales & England are welcome to join the EU 😊🎉🎉😊
Scotland for sure. Wales? Hmmm. Maybe.
England? No way. Not until they get rid of their Empire mindset, english exceptionalism and the tendency to blame all of the political mistakes their government makes on the EU. They have used the EU as a scapegoat for decades and look what that has caused. Not to mention that the open hostility they show towards Germany and France in particular has to stop.
@@HH-hd7ndnot just those 2. They have shown hostility towards every single member. "club med" during the gfc, Eastern Europe when it came to FOM, invading the Netherlands, and of course Ireland.
@@ab-ym3bf Sure, but Germany and France are their go-to scapegoats and are blamed for literally everything.
What a total load of rubbish! UK is not hostile to any European country.
@@HH-hd7nd “Let's become an empire, an empire of the good and not of the bad.”
(Guy Verhofstadt, interviewed by the International Business Times, 29 11 2016.)
“The world order of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation-states, on countries - it’s a world order that is based on empires. China is not a nation, it’s a civilisation - Han. India - you know it better than I do - is not a nation. There are 2,000 nations in India; there are 20 different languages that are used there; there are four big religions…. The U.S. is also an empire, more than a nation - maybe tomorrow they will speak there more Spanish than English, I don’t know what will happen - and then finally, the Russian Federation. The world of tomorrow is a world of empires, in which we Europeans, and you British, can only defend your interests, your way of life, by doing it together, in a European framework, and in European union.”
(Guy Verhofstadt, speech to the UK Liberal Democrats, 14 09 2019.)
Brexit disaster
Here's a fun story about French bureaucracy for you all. In case the discussion needs livening up. Perhaps the poor old UK is better off outside the EU after all. Francophone Belgian couple caught in bureaucratic struggle to prove they speak French. It's a story from CNN. Just a bit of fun really. I love the French....
I think that Churchill and De Gaulle got it right the first time. The UK is and always will be an outward looking nation with links to the Anglosphere and an interest in the Rest of the World. Becuse the EU is inward looking to the point of being protectionist it's not possible to maintain the UK's position at the same time as being in the EU.
Don't forget we have the Trade and Co-Operation Agreement and that's not a bad deal though it would be a lot better if the EU hadn't added over 1500 non-tariff barriers to it. Perhaps we'll break tose down over time.
As for becomig a full member ever again, I really don't see it.
Sadly, I agree, the UK is doomed to increasing irrelevance and decline. Brexit has done permanent and long term damage to the UK economy, we are much poorer because of the vote, and we need to accept this.
@@knightsnight5929 Outside the EU is not necessarily a bad place to be. Certainly in terms of economic growth, most of that happens outside the EU where the level of regulation tends to slow progress and stifle innovation. We do however need a government with the cojones to take advantage of Brexit freedoms, it won't happen all by itself.
Nope, Churchill was an imperalist, his vision was only valid if we were an Empire, he was even canvassing about that in the 50's. Clearly becomming out of touch.
We are and will remain a post Imperial country that is now out in the cold! The T&C A is almost No Deal, its terrible, it does not include services our main export, hence £2.3 trillion of Euro Derivative trade left the City in March 2021 for ever into the EU and Wall St. France now attracts more inward investment as it is in the Single Market, the £ devalued and has never fully recovered since 2016, making inflation worse as we have to import a lot, including 50% of our food 30% from the EU. We have stagflation, and the EU on aggregate is in a better place than the UK, despite war on the continent!! Brexit is a disaster compared to what was promissed by the Leave cabal, that amounted to all the benefits of EU membership for zero costs or responcibility of membership, and that was never going to happen as everyone in a rational place warned about and were ignored, or dismissed as 'traitors', Project Fear etc. Well, we were right!
@@paullarne I am afraid we are not in the Indo Pacific, nor are we by force of will part of the USA area of economic activity as the 'Anglosphere' which is a Brexiteer retreat into fantasy!
@@paullarne "Outside the EU is not necessarily a bad place to be" (Sigh) Yes it is, for the UK. The “gravity” result that the level of international real and financial trade is inversely proportional to the distance between countries, is a well-established fact in international macroeconomics. For example: increasing physical distance between two countries by one standard deviation lowers trade in goods by 23%.
How's Germany getting on? AdF doing well. Has macron appointed a new PM, as his last one failed? Le pen to win? Meloni in power. The Netherlands? Orban? All looking so good......not.
Look!
Over there!
A squirrel!
Three remainers talking about rejoining don't they ever give it a rest we're out accept it no one's interested anymore.
..thats not true!! But when were facts relevant to Brexiteers!
@@bryangeake5826 Part of it is true (punctuation notwithstanding).
@@Martin-bx1et .....YouGov's most recent poll is showing a clear majority of British people wish to join the EU! Lots are 'interested' in the subject!
@@bryangeake5826 I was referring to the scintilla of truth that was buried in there somewhere... "we're out".
It would have been easier to spot if Mr Jones hadn't been deflecting and gaslighting, both at the same time.
Exporters and importers are and there are a lot of them. It part of the reason why food and goods are more expensive due to the self imposed restrictions
What are the advantages of returning? Most rejoiners are economically illiterate and live in the past. The EU has serious problems. The German economy is in decline and it can no longer afford to prop up the EU in the way it did. That spells doom for the euro. The EU is a low-growth region. The EU faces Russian troops on its eastern borders. Its members are pacifists who don't have the will to defend themselves. EU countries are moving to the right politically. Schengen won't last much longer. Russia won't allow Ukraine to join the EU, it objected in 2014. The EU project is toast. Britain needs a new security alliance, it can't defend the EU and the US is losing interest, The UK needs to move closer to Asia and the Anglosphere.
'Most *Leavers* are economically illiterate and live in the past.' There, I fixed it for you.
Delusional analysis but sums up the state of mind of the uk perfectly.
Typical English arrogance.
@@ab-ym3bf Funny how you say everything you don't like is "delusional" but you can't come up with a single rational argument. not very impressive.
@@russmarkham2197 that is because I had nor have any intention of setting the record straight, as you seem to have noticed.
There is a difference between "not being able to" and "not doing". The lies and false analysis of the OP have been answered so many times since 2016 that I feel no need to once again make any effort.
My comment only pointed towards him being a good representative of the delusional English mindset.
How about you respect the democratic vote and accept that the UK is not going back into a failing non democracy.
The UK is not going back to a failing non-democracy, it still is a failing non-democracy and seems to remain so for the foreseeable future.
Hallelujah! God is good 😂
No as much as remainers want it the eu would never allow the uk back. They have seen how thick remainers are, they had 6 years to leave for the eu and not one went. They can still move to Ireland yet not one has left. They keep banging on about fom that they never used. They go on like they cannot buy eu products yet they can. They bang on how smart they are yet tell you they are locked up in prison if they were so smart they could leave on visas. Really do the eu really want these people.
@terryj
"They can still move to Ireland yet not one has left"?
That claim is horse manure.
There has been a noticeable influx of people from Britain into Ireland, POST-Brixit. There has been a very noticeable increase in British-registered vehicles on our roads.
Relative to population, there are, currently, about six or seven times more British people living in Ireland than Irish people living in Britain.
Given the level of ignorance concerning Ireland, we can safely assume that all your other claims are equally false.....
@@gloin10 a tiny amount of the 17.5 million who can move have moved.
@@gloin10 can you tell the 17.5 million they can all move to Ireland they don’t seem to know.
@@terryj50
Every British subject and Irish citizen enjoys full, reciprocal, rights to work, reside buy property, etc in the UK, the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and Ireland.
The only minor exceptions concern voting rights.
UK subjects can, if registered, vote in Irish general and local elections. They may not vote in Irish Presidential or constitutional referenda.
Which is only fair as no Irish person ever voted for the UK's Head of State, and the country does not have a written constitution anyway....
@@gloin10 yep as the uk and Ireland have the cta and treat each other as if they were citizens of each country if they live there. But it seems remainers don’t understand that as everyone I speak to suggests they are prisoners in the uk and say they cannot leave this rock.