Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
It's very interesting to hear what Preston Sprinkle the co author of the book has had to say since writing the book. He confesses he didn't know that much about the topic before starting to write the book, and although both he and Francis leaned toward ECT, Sprinkle now leans toward anihilationism, although there are 2 or 3 verses that hold him back from fully embracing the obvious Biblical truth. It seems that tradition is so hard to let go of.
With all do respect. Why do we submit ourselves to the notion that we need to rely on popular pastors who write books as the experts in Christianity? We as Christians all have the same Holy Spirit that reveals God's Holy Word to each of us. The difference is they have music playing while they are talking on a media crazed world.....I agree; pray and study God's Word and hold each of us accountable to following Christ. Christ said take up your cross and follow Him. If you want to save your life you will loose it and if you loose your life for His sake you will gain it.
because there are a lot of false prophets and we as the believers need to watch and know what is being spoken. If you had the spotlight on you, would you judge yourself the same as you are toward others as in your own comment above? I understand what you are saying but I also sense something else in that statement that does not fit...thank God for Jesus and the body of believers
Funny, the first couple of sentences, Francis Chan has said something like that in his sermon. "Why would you go and listen to Moses when you can go up the mountain and hear from God himself?".
May all be edified 😊 Ephesians 4:11-16 (NKJV) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the Equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the Edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-Christ- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Isaiah 25:7 And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into age-to-come, age-lasting (aionios) corrective punishment (kolasis), but the righteous into age-to-come eternal (aionios) life. This is the true meaning of this scripture as originally inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it does not introduce any contradictions whatsoever into the Word of God.
Mmm the corrective punishment angle is correct, but the Universalist interpretation is shaky; the purpose of corrective punishment is to eliminate the bad behavior. Annihilation accomplishes this, while ensuring the justice that God promises of only giving eternal life to the faithful, not the unfaithful.
If you are sentenced to 7 years in prison, the punishment lasts 7 years. If you are sentenced to life in prison, the length of the punishment is indeterminate, but it is finite. It lasts as long as you live. Death ends the punishment. However, if the sentence or punishment is death, that DOES last forever. There is no time limit to it, there is no such thing as being sentenced to death for 20 years. The Bible is very clear, the wage of sin IS death. THAT is the punishment. We ALL die once, because of Adam's sin, but the first death is temporary as we ALL end up being resurrected. The righteous to a resurrection of eternal life and the wicked to a resurrection of judgment, being thrown into the lake of fire which IS the second death. From the second death there is no resurrection, it is eternal. Throughout the Bible the fate of the wicked is described as death, destroyed, perish, no more, etc. The Bible goes to painstaking detail to describe their fate as death, being no more. Yet the traditionalists wrap themselves up in logical knots to try to reinterpret those verses to mean the exact opposite of what they plainly state, all because they hold on to dear life to a few verses that they misinterpret to say something beyond what they actually say. IE just because a fire is eternal or unquenchable doesn't mean anything thrown into it is eternal and can't burn up. Quite the opposite, it's hard to imagine a fire so powerful it never goes out and can't be quenched, yet somehow never manages to burn ANYTHING up. The Bible makes it very clear, to God ALONE belongs immortality and then goes on to say WHEN we obtain immortality, it's given to us by Christ at his second coming when he raises the righteous to life, which happens before the second resurrection which is when the wicked are raised up to face judgment. The Bible says the soul that sins will die and also that God is able to destroy both body and soul in the fire. The wage of sin is death. There is only one verse that specifically states something being tormented forever and ever. It's Rev 20:10 where it says the Devil and the beast and prophet are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Note, it only mentions the devil and the prophet and beast, not people or even any other fallen angel. Also the real words used are ages and ages. Which CAN mean forever and ever, but the literal meaning is ages and ages. Now if we use the eye for an eye principal for God's justice, well established in the Old Testament, then realizing that Satan is the source, the author of ALL the pain and suffering on the earth of the billions of humans over thousands of years, not to mention the animals, then his suffering and torment will last for Trillions of years. Not technically forever or eternity, but certainly ages and ages. Only God is infinite, so even the devil doesn't have the capacity for infinite evil, and therefore the purging and scourging lake of fire won't take forever to consume the wickedness of the Devil.
I love listening to Franchis Chan but regarding Hell I do not agree anymore. I started looking into it a lot few years ago and after that I changed my mind. . Have been listening to " Rethinking Hell " a lot, even where he interviewed Preston Sprinkle who was the co author with Franchis. He has also changed his mind after carefully researching it. Was just listening to Berean bible church. Eternal destiny. "Hell ? NO! "He has many good points on this matter. Just wanted to mention it here as it is extremely important subject.
No one is cast off by the Lord forever, though he brings grief he will show compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love. Woweee God's love can't fail, it's unfailing. Does that mean He will have compassion on let's say Sodom : " I will restore the fortunes of Sodom " Ezekiel 16:53 woohoo. Jesus was sent to save sinners which is everyone, surprise , surprise, and if he doesnt save everyone then he fails , right?, but the Bible says he never fails Jesus is God John 1:1 God is Love 1John 4:8 drum roll please, Love never fails 1Corinthians 13:8
All our morality we got from God. We can't be morally superior than the one who created us. If we recoil with the ECT doctrine, that is because the morality instilled in us from our Father detests that lie.
OR…the father of lies is whispering his deception to the world, leading them astray. “Did God really say…” does that sound familiar? Our emotional response to a doctrine is NOT how we ought to verify its validity. Instead, regardless of our comfort or discomfort with a teaching, we ought to carefully examine the scriptures and humbly take God at his word, without twisting it or becoming judges of God, telling him he did it wrong. Isn’t it possible God knows more about how wicked sin is, and what it deserves, than his creation?
Even as believers, God's Holy nature is frightening to us because of our sinful nature. We don't want to think how seriously God takes sin. To think that God takes sin so seriously that He chooses the most extreme measure imaginable to deal with it is scary. God's Holy nature is more frightening to us than Hell. The concept of an eternal Hell shows us how Holy God is and the extreme action He will take to deal with it.
It's all about the character of God. By misrepresenting God as someone who would torture His children for eternity, we create an excuse for others to reject Him. God is good.
New American Standard Bible "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; so who is talking, here, and what is the meaning of the term eternal.....and you studied.....sounds like an emotional argument.....it has to be the scariest things to even think about....
This is one of the best things I have ever heard on the approach to difficult theological questions! I fully agree to everything said here and that is not common for me ^^
pride always come before a fall, the fear of the lord is beginning of knowledge, but the haughty despise wisdom and humility, if you think hell isnt real, you don't know the might of God and the extent of jesus taking up humanity and dying for sins
I am reading this book. It's pretty good. however, i think they gloss over the section about the Second Death. He says something like the Bible has different meanings of death... basically. I don't find his explaination of the Second death satisfactory. I'm leaning more towards annihilationism right now after reading this book. How can a loving God damn mankind for eternal torment. God would be worse than Pol Pot and Mao and Kim Jon il by X infinity. God might as well not made man. Very few will enter the kingdom. Okay. lets say 80% chance your baby will one day die and go to hell for all eternity. The idea is really hard to accept. anyways, the subject is sensitive but definitely the book makes many points I agree on and knew beforehand .
God is love, no one is lost forever, before the Bible was translated into Latin, forever punishment didn't exist in the original Koine Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, 1 Timothy 4:10 says He is the Savior of “all people” and (especially) of those who believe, but we are to repent from sins, to be set apart from this evil and perverse generation, they are trying to deceive us, fear not the Kingdom of God is at hand, our battle is not against flesh and blood but the evil spirits, bad company still corrupts good character, protect your heart, keep away from evil, the word is a light for our feet, don’t worry cast those on Him, He says we are worth more than many sparrows, Jesus said in Matthew 5:25 Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way (speaking of God) saying, you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out “until” you have paid the (last penny) "Aionon" means age, not forever with punishment, Jesus already has the keys of death and hades, hades is the realm of the dead, (with no torture in fire) same place as sheol, they translated four different words as one "hell" including gehenna, a judgment on earth, the outer darkness is temporary as well, in revelation 20:13 all of the dead will come out of hades and the grave, then judged for everything good and bad they have ever done, no one can be there forever it won't exist anymore, after is the lake of fire, it’s not a literal lake of fire, nor is it forever, it’s the second death, for whose names aren't in the book of life, we also have two deaths one in our baptism with Christ, it shows them including unbelievers on the "outside" of the kingdom, after it's done talking about the lake of fire, the word in greek is "exo" used 63 times in the Bible and never once for dead, God called the (slavery in Egypt) an "iron smelting furnace" but satan is deceiving the nations, (universal reconciliation) is the truth, to help tell others, either way you are loved, He will be “all in all” shine with purity, and good fruit, obey and love God, also your neighbor as yourself, strive to not lose your full reward, (The total victory of Christ) on CZcams has the answers.
*What did Paul say the end of the unredeemed will be? Eternal ... what?* 🔥 _…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction…._ (2 Thessalonians 1: 7-9, ESV)
This is bullshit 11 years later. Francis Chan should have stuck with his first thought of being more moral than god but he ends up being ok with human sacrifice and wouldn’t stop it if he could.
I don’t understand how anyone can consider eternal conscious torment morally justified. How could anyone give praise to such a monstrous picture of God. I guess their praise would be purely motivated by fear and not love.
*"How could anyone give praise to such a monstrous picture of God."* Yes! What blackness of heart and soul causes someone to need a sociopathic sadist for their God?
@@IsaacNussbaum it’s certainly a reflection of the darkened heart of man. I guess God must meet man where he is at.. you talk to a child in the language that a child understands. “With the merciful you show yourself merciful; with the blameless man you show yourself blameless; with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous. For you save a humble people, but the haughty eyes you bring down.” Psalm 18:25 God intention is to confound the wise and humble the proud.
Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. Because he loves you and was warning you. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He doesn't care about what's "cool." He cares about what's true and right.
@@brianquigley7336 He didn't speak about hell more than heaven, do your research. He talked about heaven more. Jesus simply taught more than others, that's why He mentions both hell and heaven more than anybody else in the Bible.
@@fireandworms Do your research. The Bible mentions hell more than heaven . It's because a loving God is trying to warn you about what happens to them that reject Him.
I still don't know what Francis thinks about hell but i know what Jesus says about it. It is plane and we don't need to sway from the plane truth no matter who you are.
*"You can't erase a Biblical doctrine."* You are right, of course, D.W. However many sincere Christians (myself included) do not believe that eternal torture is a Biblical doctrine. We don't believe that it is derived _from_ the Bible but, rather, imposed _on_ it.
@@doctrinalwatchdogactive6454 The word “torment” appears ten time in the KJV (Matthew 8: 29, Mark 5: 7, Luke 8: 28 and 16: 28, 1 John 4: 18, and Revelation 9: 5, 14: 11, 18: 7 and 18: 10). None of those ten times refer to eternal torment. Irresponsible preachers talk about _"eternal torment"_ all the time. The Bible never does.
@@doctrinalwatchdogactive6454 I think you are referring to Revelation 14: 11, D.W. Here it is in Young's Literal Translation: ✴ _and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who _*_are bowing_*_ before the beast and his image...._ The original word here is _"proskynountes"_ (Strong’s #4352) which means _“worshiping.”_ As you can see, the subject of this passage is not the final destiny of the lost. It is talking about people living on Earth in the time of the Antichrist.
@Kev Cooper So the second death is that you get to live forever in an immortal body but you're just kinda sad? And how convenient that once you're dead and living forever (somehow) God can't seem to find a way to save you.
*"Poor old Francis doesn't know what the Lake of Fire is."* I know what the Lake of Fire is, N. B. It is the second death. As in dead, all the way dead. _"Born once---die twice."_
Sad emotional and popular answer. Instead of a study of the verses and there original meaning and God's true intended message. God is taught to be a tormentor by people that enjoy that fact and this is your best. The problem is today's so called churches and their pharisees have programmed us to search for saviors (people like chan) amongst men rather than Jesus. Proverbs 3:5 Trust in and rely confidently on the Lord with all your heart And do not rely on your own insight or understanding. Psalm 118:8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man. Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in mortal man, who cannot save. Isaiah 22:2 Put no more trust in man, who has only the breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he.
If Jesus is a mirror of God ... God would not kill. Jesus put the ear back on the head of one of his accusers. Jesus would rather die by violence than to commit violence. It just doesn’t line up to me anymore. Look at the life of Jesus. What he did. What he said. How he lived. He loved. He told us to turn the other cheek. He died to horrible violence. The God of the OT is not the same God as Jesus. I just don’t see it that way anymore. Here come the Christians won’t hear pitchforks ready to attack me. And this is why I struggle ... the Christians are the first to go on the attack when someone has an opposing view. I love Jesus. I am choosing to live the kingdom life here on earth. Choosing to not create hell here on earth. We should all strive to live the kingdom life Jesus spoke about. Here and now. Not some far off place in the future. The world would be a better place for it.
Why would Chan advocate that infanticide, genocide, and slavery are God's higher levels of wisdom and knowledge? If he actually believes this stuff, he would probably burn his daughter unto the Lord like Jephthah.
@NCG Studios I recognize its been 9 years, so perhaps you no longer hold this view. The story about Jepthah is an example of what NOT to do.... not an example of what to do. The irony of this story and nearly every other story in Judges, is that if the people actually knew God's words then they wouldn't repeat history. If Jephthah actually read Leviticus he would have known he didnt need to kill his daughter at all. God despises that garbage more than you or I. Leviticus 5 reads: "if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt- 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned." In other words, this is descriptive vs prescriptive reading of Scripture. You are reading what was meant to be descriptive as a prescription of what we ought to do.
View Bill Wiese 8min clip on this giving scripture references for why hell or specifically the lake of fire will be forever and ever, for eternity......we don't have to mince words.....just give the straight forward Truth of Gods Word, the Holy and perfect KJB, without trying to make christianity culturally relevant doing theological tip toeing. Preach the hard in your face Truth of Gods Word the way Bill Wiese does.
If you want a guy who spent 2 years devoted to the topic and looked at every verse, the Hebrew, the Greek, the intertestamental authors, Greek influences and the early church fathers, and who is a real expert, check out Edward Fudge.
Interesting point of view. If you’d like I can share mine. Here are my basics... I judge the Scripture based on JESUS! The 4 Gospels and HIS words. WWJD. I do not consider all scripture infallible But I do consider it inspired. It is good to question our own reason However our reason is also a gift from G-D. JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD OF G-D Not the Bible! I believe Jeremiah 8.8 warms me that the OT has been handed falsely. So first I compare to the historic Churches scripture- The LXX, both the Byzantine and the Alexandrian (they are different in some places) I also look at the Dead Sea scrolls Bible. I am not a Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox so I do not restrict myself with dogma. i am a plain Joe Christian and I never liked Martin Luther anyway. Next I go to the Apostolic Fathers of the 1st and 2nd Century. 1st Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepard of Hermès. As well as the 380 AD “canon” is what I consider “all scripture.” Although Barnabas has 3 glaring unscientific statements. I am not looking for scientific accuracy but Historic Christianity. I read Polycarp, Irenaeus, the Anti-Marcion writings (to get an idea of marcions beliefs from his rivals (flawed)) After I have diligently Sought out these sources I am then willing to look at the Christ rejector text the MT. And the English bibles based on it. Did you know that 9-10 NT qoutes of the OT agree with the LXX and not the Christ rejectors??? 8-10 quotes from the DSS agree with the LXX not the Christ rejectors like Maimonides Moses aka Moses money. I have also looked at the Ge’ez and Taewado bibles which are significantly different than the Protestants. I study history for context. Like Josephus. Anyway, I do this for any subject I am studying fro Salvation to Hell. I believe G-D has blessed me with knowledge for a reason. And with Knowledge comes wisdom. Although some like my wife may argue about that. My weakness was my OCD and G-D used it putting his strength on my weakness! Anyway I didn’t really tell you anything about my beliefs but This post is long enough. Keydah = rRiddle May the household of adonikam come out of Solomon’s Usury Gold and come back to there true names and creator. Adonikam = AdoniJah Solomon = Jedidiah The baby= Israel The false mother = Solomon The real mother = AdoniJah Sword, sword! Rip the baby in half!
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”
It's very interesting to hear what Preston Sprinkle the co author of the book has had to say since writing the book. He confesses he didn't know that much about the topic before starting to write the book, and although both he and Francis leaned toward ECT, Sprinkle now leans toward anihilationism, although there are 2 or 3 verses that hold him back from fully embracing the obvious Biblical truth. It seems that tradition is so hard to let go of.
With all do respect. Why do we submit ourselves to the notion that we need to rely on popular pastors who write books as the experts in Christianity? We as Christians all have the same Holy Spirit that reveals God's Holy Word to each of us. The difference is they have music playing while they are talking on a media crazed world.....I agree; pray and study God's Word and hold each of us accountable to following Christ. Christ said take up your cross and follow Him. If you want to save your life you will loose it and if you loose your life for His sake you will gain it.
because there are a lot of false prophets and we as the believers need to watch and know what is being spoken. If you had the spotlight on you, would you judge yourself the same as you are toward others as in your own comment above? I understand what you are saying but I also sense something else in that statement that does not fit...thank God for Jesus and the body of believers
Funny, the first couple of sentences, Francis Chan has said something like that in his sermon. "Why would you go and listen to Moses when you can go up the mountain and hear from God himself?".
May all be edified 😊 Ephesians 4:11-16 (NKJV) 11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the Equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the Edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head-Christ- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Conditional Immortality all the way.
Isaiah 25:7
And he will swallow up on this mountain
the covering that is cast over all peoples,
the veil that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death forever;
and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces,
and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
for the Lord has spoken.
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into age-to-come, age-lasting (aionios) corrective punishment (kolasis), but the righteous into age-to-come eternal (aionios) life.
This is the true meaning of this scripture as originally inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it does not introduce any contradictions whatsoever into the Word of God.
What does that mean??
Thank you, let's keep spreading the Truth :)
Mmm the corrective punishment angle is correct, but the Universalist interpretation is shaky; the purpose of corrective punishment is to eliminate the bad behavior. Annihilation accomplishes this, while ensuring the justice that God promises of only giving eternal life to the faithful, not the unfaithful.
If you are sentenced to 7 years in prison, the punishment lasts 7 years. If you are sentenced to life in prison, the length of the punishment is indeterminate, but it is finite. It lasts as long as you live. Death ends the punishment.
However, if the sentence or punishment is death, that DOES last forever. There is no time limit to it, there is no such thing as being sentenced to death for 20 years.
The Bible is very clear, the wage of sin IS death. THAT is the punishment.
We ALL die once, because of Adam's sin, but the first death is temporary as we ALL end up being resurrected. The righteous to a resurrection of eternal life and the wicked to a resurrection of judgment, being thrown into the lake of fire which IS the second death. From the second death there is no resurrection, it is eternal.
Throughout the Bible the fate of the wicked is described as death, destroyed, perish, no more, etc. The Bible goes to painstaking detail to describe their fate as death, being no more. Yet the traditionalists wrap themselves up in logical knots to try to reinterpret those verses to mean the exact opposite of what they plainly state, all because they hold on to dear life to a few verses that they misinterpret to say something beyond what they actually say.
IE just because a fire is eternal or unquenchable doesn't mean anything thrown into it is eternal and can't burn up. Quite the opposite, it's hard to imagine a fire so powerful it never goes out and can't be quenched, yet somehow never manages to burn ANYTHING up.
The Bible makes it very clear, to God ALONE belongs immortality and then goes on to say WHEN we obtain immortality, it's given to us by Christ at his second coming when he raises the righteous to life, which happens before the second resurrection which is when the wicked are raised up to face judgment.
The Bible says the soul that sins will die and also that God is able to destroy both body and soul in the fire. The wage of sin is death.
There is only one verse that specifically states something being tormented forever and ever. It's Rev 20:10 where it says the Devil and the beast and prophet are thrown into the lake of fire where they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever. Note, it only mentions the devil and the prophet and beast, not people or even any other fallen angel.
Also the real words used are ages and ages. Which CAN mean forever and ever, but the literal meaning is ages and ages.
Now if we use the eye for an eye principal for God's justice, well established in the Old Testament, then realizing that Satan is the source, the author of ALL the pain and suffering on the earth of the billions of humans over thousands of years, not to mention the animals, then his suffering and torment will last for Trillions of years. Not technically forever or eternity, but certainly ages and ages.
Only God is infinite, so even the devil doesn't have the capacity for infinite evil, and therefore the purging and scourging lake of fire won't take forever to consume the wickedness of the Devil.
I love listening to Franchis Chan but regarding Hell I do not agree anymore. I started looking into it a lot few years ago and after that I changed my mind. . Have been listening to " Rethinking Hell " a lot, even where he interviewed Preston Sprinkle who was the co author with Franchis. He has also changed his mind after carefully researching it. Was just listening to Berean bible church. Eternal destiny. "Hell ? NO! "He has many good points on this matter.
Just wanted to mention it here as it is extremely important subject.
No one is cast off by the Lord forever, though he brings grief he will show compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love. Woweee God's love can't fail, it's unfailing. Does that mean He will have compassion on let's say Sodom : " I will restore the fortunes of Sodom " Ezekiel 16:53 woohoo. Jesus was sent to save sinners which is everyone, surprise , surprise, and if he doesnt save everyone then he fails , right?, but the Bible says he never fails Jesus is God John 1:1 God is Love 1John 4:8 drum roll please, Love never fails 1Corinthians 13:8
Yep
Exactly
You got it right on the money
All our morality we got from God. We can't be morally superior than the one who created us. If we recoil with the ECT doctrine, that is because the morality instilled in us from our Father detests that lie.
OR…the father of lies is whispering his deception to the world, leading them astray. “Did God really say…” does that sound familiar? Our emotional response to a doctrine is NOT how we ought to verify its validity. Instead, regardless of our comfort or discomfort with a teaching, we ought to carefully examine the scriptures and humbly take God at his word, without twisting it or becoming judges of God, telling him he did it wrong. Isn’t it possible God knows more about how wicked sin is, and what it deserves, than his creation?
Try out “Unlearn”- CZcams Channel. His teaching on the Hell subject is thought provoking and all backed up by a extensive Bible study.
Even as believers, God's Holy nature is frightening to us because of our sinful nature. We don't want to think how seriously God takes sin. To think that God takes sin so seriously that He chooses the most extreme measure imaginable to deal with it is scary. God's Holy nature is more frightening to us than Hell. The concept of an eternal Hell shows us how Holy God is and the extreme action He will take to deal with it.
It's all about the character of God. By misrepresenting God as someone who would torture His children for eternity, we create an excuse for others to reject Him. God is good.
Yep
God is also just and righteous.
@@brianquigley7336 Are you suggesting that it is just and righteous to eternally torture 99% of everyone ever born, Brian?
@@brianquigley7336and you think a few years in this fallen world means its just to be burned in eternal conscious torment?
New American Standard Bible
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; so who is talking, here, and what is the meaning of the term eternal.....and you studied.....sounds like an emotional argument.....it has to be the scariest things to even think about....
This is one of the best things I have ever heard on the approach to difficult theological questions! I fully agree to everything said here and that is not common for me ^^
pride always come before a fall, the fear of the lord is beginning of knowledge, but the haughty despise wisdom and humility, if you think hell isnt real, you don't know the might of God and the extent of jesus taking up humanity and dying for sins
Is Jesus really trying to save us from his father
I am reading this book. It's pretty good. however, i think they gloss over the section about the Second Death. He says something like the Bible has different meanings of death... basically. I don't find his explaination of the Second death satisfactory. I'm leaning more towards annihilationism right now after reading this book. How can a loving God damn mankind for eternal torment. God would be worse than Pol Pot and Mao and Kim Jon il by X infinity. God might as well not made man. Very few will enter the kingdom. Okay. lets say 80% chance your baby will one day die and go to hell for all eternity. The idea is really hard to accept. anyways, the subject is sensitive but definitely the book makes many points I agree on and knew beforehand .
There will be no babies in hell, only adults who made there own decision for their eternal destination
God is love, no one is lost forever, before the Bible was translated into Latin, forever punishment didn't exist in the original Koine Greek manuscripts of the New Testament, 1 Timothy 4:10 says
He is the Savior of “all people” and (especially) of those who believe, but we are to repent from sins, to be set apart from this evil and perverse generation, they are trying to deceive us, fear not the Kingdom of God is at hand, our battle is not against flesh and blood but the evil spirits, bad company still corrupts good character, protect your heart, keep away from evil, the word is a light for our feet, don’t worry cast those on Him, He says we are worth more than many sparrows,
Jesus said in Matthew 5:25
Reconcile quickly with your adversary, while you are still on the way (speaking of God) saying, you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out “until” you have paid the (last penny)
"Aionon" means age, not forever with punishment, Jesus already has the keys of death and hades, hades is the realm of the dead, (with no torture in fire) same place as sheol, they translated four different words as one "hell" including gehenna, a judgment on earth, the outer darkness is temporary as well, in revelation 20:13 all of the
dead will come out of hades and the grave, then judged for everything good and bad they have ever done, no one can be there forever it won't exist anymore, after is the lake of fire, it’s not a literal lake of fire, nor is it forever, it’s the second death, for whose names aren't in the book of life, we also have two deaths one in our baptism with Christ, it shows them including unbelievers on the "outside" of the kingdom, after it's done talking about the lake of fire, the word in greek is "exo" used 63 times in the Bible and never once for dead, God called the (slavery in Egypt) an
"iron smelting furnace" but satan is deceiving the nations, (universal reconciliation)
is the truth, to help tell others, either way you are loved, He will be “all in all” shine with purity, and good fruit, obey and love God, also your neighbor as yourself, strive to not lose your full reward, (The total victory of Christ) on CZcams has the answers.
*What did Paul say the end of the unredeemed will be? Eternal ... what?* 🔥 _…when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction…._ (2 Thessalonians 1: 7-9, ESV)
Destruction. Not torment.
This is bullshit 11 years later. Francis Chan should have stuck with his first thought of being more moral than god but he ends up being ok with human sacrifice and wouldn’t stop it if he could.
We have the mind of Christ. 1cor2:16
Amen!!
Oh God why does he always talk like he’s speaking to 5 year olds?
I don’t understand how anyone can consider eternal conscious torment morally justified. How could anyone give praise to such a monstrous picture of God. I guess their praise would be purely motivated by fear and not love.
*"How could anyone give praise to such a monstrous picture of God."* Yes! What blackness of heart and soul causes someone to need a sociopathic sadist for their God?
@@IsaacNussbaum it’s certainly a reflection of the darkened heart of man. I guess God must meet man where he is at.. you talk to a child in the language that a child understands.
“With the merciful you show yourself merciful; with the blameless man you show yourself blameless; with the purified you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous. For you save a humble people, but the haughty eyes you bring down.” Psalm 18:25
God intention is to confound the wise and humble the proud.
how about trinity also.
Bro this dude Jesus is pretty cool and hes not going to teach off fear he teaches off love your realigon should be love
look at the referenced he made to hell....or the lake of fire.....Jesus is not....cool....he is holy, and that is a huge difference...
@@philipbuckley759 my guy that's just how I communicate That's why I'm not a pastor of course Jesus is holy not cool
Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. Because he loves you and was warning you. He's not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He doesn't care about what's "cool." He cares about what's true and right.
@@brianquigley7336 He didn't speak about hell more than heaven, do your research. He talked about heaven more. Jesus simply taught more than others, that's why He mentions both hell and heaven more than anybody else in the Bible.
@@fireandworms Do your research. The Bible mentions hell more than heaven . It's because a loving God is trying to warn you about what happens to them that reject Him.
We will never really know who God is in this lifetime. Remember, the bible is only what He reveals.
I still don't know what Francis thinks about hell but i know what Jesus says about it. It is plane and we don't need to sway from the plane truth no matter who you are.
czcams.com/video/p3FG3aAYbwo/video.html
Conditional Immortality
You can't erase a Biblical doctrine.
*"You can't erase a Biblical doctrine."* You are right, of course, D.W. However many sincere Christians (myself included) do not believe that eternal torture is a Biblical doctrine. We don't believe that it is derived _from_ the Bible but, rather, imposed _on_ it.
@@IsaacNussbaum so the Bible is wrong to call it torment?
@@doctrinalwatchdogactive6454 The word “torment” appears ten time in the KJV (Matthew 8: 29, Mark 5: 7, Luke 8: 28 and 16: 28, 1 John 4: 18, and Revelation 9: 5, 14: 11, 18: 7 and 18: 10). None of those ten times refer to eternal torment. Irresponsible preachers talk about _"eternal torment"_ all the time. The Bible never does.
@@IsaacNussbaum yes it does Revelation 14:10
@@doctrinalwatchdogactive6454 I think you are referring to Revelation 14: 11, D.W. Here it is in Young's Literal Translation:
✴ _and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who _*_are bowing_*_ before the beast and his image...._
The original word here is _"proskynountes"_ (Strong’s #4352) which means _“worshiping.”_ As you can see, the subject of this passage is not the final destiny of the lost. It is talking about people living on Earth in the time of the Antichrist.
ahh yes but what about Judges 3:22 ????
What does that mean
There is no infinite hell for imperfect people.
what is everlasting fire, prepared, for the Devil, and his angels....
@@philipbuckley759 A fire that refines or a fire that consumes. God's even called a "Refiner's fire".
@Kev Cooper According to who? That's what fire does.
@Kev Cooper So the second death is that you get to live forever in an immortal body but you're just kinda sad? And how convenient that once you're dead and living forever (somehow) God can't seem to find a way to save you.
@Kev Cooper I thought that's what Hell was. Are you talking about Hell or the Lake of Fire?
Poor old Francis doesn't know what the Lake of Fire is You Tube channel THE total victory of Christ can show him
God bless you nev
*"Poor old Francis doesn't know what the Lake of Fire is."* I know what the Lake of Fire is, N. B. It is the second death. As in dead, all the way dead. _"Born once---die twice."_
stop the nonsense, and read the text....if you have an issue, I am sure you will be able to address him directly, on Judgement Day......
Sad emotional and popular answer. Instead of a study of the verses and there original meaning and God's true intended message. God is taught to be a tormentor by people that enjoy that fact and this is your best.
The problem is today's so called churches and their pharisees have programmed us to search for saviors (people like chan) amongst men rather than Jesus.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in and rely confidently on the Lord with all your heart
And do not rely on your own insight or understanding.
Psalm 118:8
It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.
Psalm 146:3
Put not your trust in princes, in mortal man, who cannot save.
Isaiah 22:2
Put no more trust in man, who has only the breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he.
Want to know about hell? Read the Bible. Stop listening to people and listen to the LORD.
If Jesus is a mirror of God ... God would not kill. Jesus put the ear back on the head of one of his accusers. Jesus would rather die by violence than to commit violence. It just doesn’t line up to me anymore. Look at the life of Jesus. What he did. What he said. How he lived. He loved. He told us to turn the other cheek. He died to horrible violence. The God of the OT is not the same God as Jesus. I just don’t see it that way anymore. Here come the Christians won’t hear pitchforks ready to attack me. And this is why I struggle ... the Christians are the first to go on the attack when someone has an opposing view. I love Jesus. I am choosing to live the kingdom life here on earth. Choosing to not create hell here on earth. We should all strive to live the kingdom life Jesus spoke about. Here and now. Not some far off place in the future. The world would be a better place for it.
I agree with a lot of things about your perspective, but certainly you are mistaken about Jesus's identity. Reflect on Mark 2:28
Why does it look like he's acting?
Because he...... is.
You're unwise. Blind
5:10 yea and then you want to live with that god for eternity :) nice
Why would Chan advocate that infanticide, genocide, and slavery are God's higher levels of wisdom and knowledge? If he actually believes this stuff, he would probably burn his daughter unto the Lord like Jephthah.
@NCG Studios I recognize its been 9 years, so perhaps you no longer hold this view. The story about Jepthah is an example of what NOT to do.... not an example of what to do. The irony of this story and nearly every other story in Judges, is that if the people actually knew God's words then they wouldn't repeat history. If Jephthah actually read Leviticus he would have known he didnt need to kill his daughter at all. God despises that garbage more than you or I. Leviticus 5 reads: "if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt- 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned."
In other words, this is descriptive vs prescriptive reading of Scripture. You are reading what was meant to be descriptive as a prescription of what we ought to do.
View Bill Wiese 8min clip on this giving scripture references for why hell or specifically the lake of fire will be forever and ever, for eternity......we don't have to mince words.....just give the straight forward Truth of Gods Word, the Holy and perfect KJB, without trying to make christianity culturally relevant doing theological tip toeing. Preach the hard in your face Truth of Gods Word the way Bill Wiese does.
czcams.com/video/p3FG3aAYbwo/video.html
If you want a guy who spent 2 years devoted to the topic and looked at every verse, the Hebrew, the Greek, the intertestamental authors, Greek influences and the early church fathers, and who is a real expert, check out Edward Fudge.
Bill Wiese spends his life preaching that nobody can escape the hell that he himself escaped haha
@@michaelnewzealand1888 read the English language Bible and read what Jesus said.....
Interesting point of view.
If you’d like I can share mine.
Here are my basics...
I judge the Scripture based on JESUS!
The 4 Gospels and HIS words. WWJD.
I do not consider all scripture infallible
But I do consider it inspired.
It is good to question our own reason
However our reason is also a gift from G-D.
JESUS IS THE LIVING WORD OF G-D
Not the Bible! I believe Jeremiah 8.8 warms me that the OT has been handed falsely.
So first I compare to the historic Churches scripture- The LXX, both the Byzantine and the Alexandrian (they are different in some places)
I also look at the Dead Sea scrolls Bible. I am not a Protestant, Catholic or Orthodox so I do not restrict myself with dogma. i am a plain Joe Christian and I never liked Martin Luther anyway.
Next I go to the Apostolic Fathers of the 1st and 2nd Century.
1st Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepard of Hermès.
As well as the 380 AD “canon” is what I consider “all scripture.”
Although Barnabas has 3 glaring unscientific statements.
I am not looking for scientific accuracy but Historic Christianity.
I read Polycarp, Irenaeus, the Anti-Marcion writings (to get an idea of marcions beliefs from his rivals (flawed))
After I have diligently Sought out these sources I am then willing to look at the Christ rejector text the MT. And the English bibles based on it.
Did you know that 9-10 NT qoutes of the OT agree with the LXX and not the Christ rejectors???
8-10 quotes from the DSS agree with the LXX not the Christ rejectors like Maimonides Moses aka Moses money.
I have also looked at the Ge’ez and Taewado bibles which are significantly different than the Protestants.
I study history for context. Like Josephus.
Anyway, I do this for any subject I am studying fro Salvation to Hell.
I believe G-D has blessed me with knowledge for a reason.
And with Knowledge comes wisdom.
Although some like my wife may argue about that.
My weakness was my OCD and G-D used it putting his strength on my weakness!
Anyway I didn’t really tell you anything about my beliefs but This post is long enough.
Keydah = rRiddle
May the household of adonikam come out of Solomon’s Usury Gold and come back to there true names and creator.
Adonikam = AdoniJah
Solomon = Jedidiah
The baby= Israel
The false mother = Solomon
The real mother = AdoniJah
Sword, sword! Rip the baby in half!
I think you should look into The Padgett Messages next. Happy findings!