Thanks for the video. I'm amazed at how relaxed you are about all the flaws. I originally come from the construction business, a small list of rework at pre-acceptance is normal, however my company has never been faced with warranty claims after handover. OK I am German and many of us take Made in Germany very seriously. My insight on Leopard (Robertson & Caine) is quite simple. R&C save themselves the quality control (similar to Microsoft,...there the users have to find the bugs) and leave the troubleshooting to the buyers. In principle, this is a possibility for business concepts, but in the price range of catamarans, this is from my point of view, a strong slap in the face of buyers. Even if R&C takes over the costs, because warranty, it is nevertheless rather in such a way, which buyers, who buy themselves a brand-new product, exactly these problems of lack evenly do not want to have and therefore also substantially more pay, than with a used Catamaran.
i agree with you. the metaphor with the auto industry can only go so far. when was the last time you splash half a million USD (probably, even more than that) on a car and "expect " to have flaws. the cheapest Bugatti sells for 1.5 million, there are tons of cats valued at or above that sailing around, being delivered everyday. do they expect faults?! like the front left brake suddenly stops working?. the thing here is, like you said, quality control. and these big manufacturers arent very good at it. the reality lies somewhere in this: manufacturers want to sell boats. people want to buy boats. now, most people think a boat is like a car, it isnt, thats their first mistake. is takes way more to be a sailor than to be a driver. most people then want to look good in the picture and buy boats, which, had they been properly monitored they wouldnt have the money to buy, because time is money and someone needs to get paid. in the end guess who gets bitten? if there is an instance where a car and a boat are similiar is the waste of money to get them new. research, get a well cared second hand boat, then kit it out for your type of sailing. anyone who knows half a thing about boats knows that the cost is in the gear not the building of the hull, thats the cheap part
@@pmnfernando Yes, I'm right there with you, I see it essentially the same way. I like almost no Cat's in their basic version, you can't avoid, if you buy a Cat, to individualize and optimize it, as you want it in the end. Unfortunately, this is all a very expensive project. i myself have it in the planning stages, but it will take a long time to ultimately implement. However, my basic model will ultimately be a Privelege, which is already very solid from the base and only needs fine-tuning.
After hearing all these horror stories of a new boat, I would highly suggest that every single person hire someone to give you a survey of the boat that way before you make it your problem, you have them give you a list to hand to them to fix before you take the boat
Be careful. We have friends whose surveyor missed the fact the boat was infested with termites and was a constructive loss. Over 5 years of legal fighting to get a resolution. One of the things I do during prebuy is google every piece of major equipment to see what issues come up. There is a ton of knowledge in the forums and when I was getting into cruising spent literally hundreds of hours reading forums and books. You, as the buyer are your best advocate. Think about the boat transaction. Every party wants the transaction to happen so everyone gets paid. Surveyors are often recommended by the broker - and guess what: if the surveyor is too "picky", they get in the way of closing the deal and their phone doesn't ring anymore.
its a production yacht, no point comparing it to auto makers. theres no reason they cant fix these things at the yard, but everything thing comes from the top. owners putting mangers under pressure to make profits, and it goes down the chain where workers on the line miss steps out and quality control isnt good enough. for the price of a leopard this is unacceptable. Appreciate your honesty.
What an awesome video! Thanks so much for that. I dream one day of buying a Leopard 45 so it’s like watching a detailed video on MY boat. :) It’s a bit daunting being the one who will need to fix or organise a fix on these things, but it is doable and your description of the processes was very helpful. We don’t know each other, likely will never meet, but I feel a real affinity for you two and those beautiful dogs and boat after seeing parts of your life so closely. Thanks so much for sharing. I hope you have many more years of mostly trouble-free sailing. Unlikely to ever be entirely trouble free... so I hope after your diligence it’s largely trouble free. :)
Thanks for watching and such a kind message🙂. Hoping you are able to buy your dream boat - but it's always good to see the big picture - which includes a lot of work. It's very doable - but definitely not for everyone and something you need to be prepared for. We love our Leopard 45 and wouldn't trade her for another - but sometimes she can be a bit of a challenge🙂.
thanks for the video, I would never buy a leopard. There is a family from Australia who have engine problems on a brand new Leopard. And everyone shifts the responsibility.
Thanks for watching! One of the realities of boat ownership is that you're going to find something that needs to be fixed or replaced after every season🙂.
This is such an excellent video guys. Pointing out the simple angle of a sheet on the clutch highlights the importance of alignment and in the case of the auto pilot I am amazed that something so critical would be lost at the quality control level on final check off. Thanks for making these issues apparent to all of us. Cheers Ross.
Thanks for watching! We definitely do not regret buying a new boat or buying our Leopard 45. Just wanted to present a dose of reality to those looking to buy a boat - new or used🙂.
I’m so glad I came across your video! We have purchased a Leopard 50 and take delivery in October. We are putting her in the Moorings program for 5 years so all the bugs should be worked out when we get her. We went to South Africa at the beginning of May and were impressed with Roberson and Caines operations. We met the head of quality control and were impressed with the oversight. We’ve owned new boats in the past and there are issues with all of them. We look forward to your future videos and are happy that you are happy with your Leopard purchase. It’s great that Leopard is watching your videos and I’m certain they are making positive changes for future buyers. Keep up the great work, hopefully we cross paths someday. We are looking forward to our new adventure! Cheers 🍻🤙🏽
Congratulations on your new purchase - the Leopard 50 is a beautiful boat! So glad you enjoyed the video. And, so glad that you understood our message - that there are issues with all new boats regardless of the manufacturer.
loved this video, had to share with the wife -- over the past 30 years many new boats -- my wife always wondered why so many things had to be fixed:-) on a new boat. just working on our final order for Leopard 45, adjusting the build list based on some of your videos.
Congratulations! We love our L45 and after 3 years wouldn't choose another make or model. Jim definitely enjoys the projects that come from boat ownership - but it's not for everyone 🙂.
Very true! We've had the boat for 2 1/2 years and the problems have changed to maintenance and replacement issues. But it did feel nice to receive a brand new boat 🙂.
Great video, you are so right. We just bought a new Excess 15. It is basically a souped up Lagoon 50. We have done one shake down cruise and it is being worked on now. Hoping to do some more sailing before we leave for Mexico in November.
Believe it or not, I just looked at the FP Elba 45 in Fort Lauderdale today. Tomorrow I’m going to the Leopard dealership in Dania Beach to go aboard the Leopard 45 and 50. Thank you for sharing this video and I discovered another video on YT with a Leopard 50 engine and swim platform problems. I can now say I’m NOT going to be purchasing a Leopard catamaran. I may spend the $1.6 million on a Equisite X5 Plus. F off to Leopard.
Run a tight line across the floors from hull to hull in several locations. Also check vertical walls in each hull when at rest in a calm anchorage or slip. These checks will help to indicate if your structures are warped due to the mast rigging forces.
Wanted to check out some reviews about Leopard 45 on the net. I believe everything that Jim said, I was just curious if there are more issues with that model. It seems that such information costs money. Thanks for telling the truth for free! I'll stay with my dinghy 😜
We love our boat and wouldn't have chosen another. The manufacturer has been great with providing support for any problems we find but it's a boat and with this many working parts there are going to be problems. The reality is that not everyone is the type of person who wants to deal with getting those problems fixed🙂. Thanks for watching!
For your rear window with crack... Some heavy truck windshields and cars glue in a similiiar fashion. Might try a truck windshield place for installment... It might be worth getting a windshield repair person out and they might be able to fill the crack in the exsisting window.
I am a boat builder for a motorboat builder in Uk. We use Fastmounts for ceilings. Small plastic clips. Its very easy to fit, very easy to pull down the ceiling, but stays up!
Jim and Stephanie, thank you for taking the time to detail explain some of the problems that required fixing with your brand new boat. These obvious and somewhat small problems unfortunately “hint at a story” of what could be bigger larger problems. Hopefully while in the middle of the Ocean the worse ones don’t make an appearance! Ceiling tiles attachments could be a design problem. Lucky the work around worked. It’s the more important hidden possible problems that worry me and possibly others. Ex.. Recently a few owners of Lagoon 450 discovered broken Bulkheads. They are on CZcams. Looking closely the connection between structural parts use built-in Bosses with a very thick putty type glue that unfortunately breaks away. This caused the Twisting as shown by sliding doors and other mating parts not correctly closing. If not corrected, the boat assembly structure could be thought as being very fragile, unfit for sailing! Who’s to say how your sliding door got out of square? 👉Could be how it was lifted as commented here. You might want to make sure important assembly connections, like bulkheads to inner assembly units are well secured. Lagoon did help one 450 owner with describing where the bulkheads are, how to expose them to check and what areas need to be check for trueness. Providing this technical information other owners found Bulkhead attachment problems.
Thanks for watching! The Leopard 45 has been in production since 2016 and we haven't heard of any major structural issues from any of the owners. As you mentioned, the repairs that we detailed were relatively minor.
A representative from Lagoon had stated that they would fix the bulkheads on boats that hadn't been "compromised" by hurricanes or running aground, but I'm not on the facebook group so I don't know if they have made good on their promise. Seeing some of the issues owners have illustrated on youtube, it has me questioning whether some of the problems are due to poor design, or just poor construction.
Awesome video. Instead of complaining about the problems you went into fixing the problems yourself. I would have thought that doing some things would void the warranty but from your explanation I have a better understanding of why it might be better to tackle some of these issues if you are able. Thanks.
So glad you enjoyed it! We've definitely learned a lot about our boat from making these small fixes. Definitely makes us feel more confident that we can handle any larger problems that may come.
So quality control is non-existent. Spending 5-600,000.00 for a boat is not enough to expect things to be done correctly? This does not speak well of manufactures.
We love our boat and wouldn't trade it for another. For the number of working parts and because it's subject to marine use, it's not surprising that there are going to be some problems. The manufacturer has been very good at helping us to fix the problems and we have no complaints.
I understand that you are happy with your boat. Nonetheless, the number of screws and bolts, the thousands of components that make up a boat, the reality that they only make 50 or so a year, these are no reason to be so sloppy with their manufacturing process. It is, frankly, pathetic that any company would use such excuses to hide their incompetence. Personally, I would be seriously pissed over any company taking a serious amount of money from me, only to give me a product that wreaks with their incompetence in manufacturing and utter contempt for their clients. But that’s me. Thank you for sharing.
All new boats have issues but all manufacturers are not the same when it comes to after market care. Nor are they all the same in regard to manufacturing quality controls. It's really important to look into this before purchase. Personally, I would not buy a Leopard
Thanks for sharing. It's the same where I am when you buy a new apartment. Lots of little things that don't work and some big things as well. When I bought my last apartment, we often got together with our neighbours and had bitch sessions about the builders.
Thank you Jim & Stephanie for your candidness throughout your video. I gotta tell 'ya you should not have had so many issues with your NEW boat. Candidly I perceive you were too willing to make apologies for Leopard and their workmanship & over build quality. Unless I can verify Leopard has majorly corrected these unforced errors Leopard is off my consideration list. Leopard should grateful you weren't dealing with me over these issues --this Marine takes no prisoners' getting issues resolved correctly and at your expense
We love our boat and after almost 3 years of owning her wouldn't chose another make or model. All boats have issues and it's good to find a manufacturer that is willing to stand by their product.
On the screws, just like when the wheels are taken off a vehicle, it is a good idea to drive several miles and check the lug nuts again because flexion and temperature changes can make them require another go with the torque wrench.
I'd be interested to know how the builder, Leopard/Robertson&Caine, plan to eliminate many of these issues in their manufacturing process going forward. For some of these issues, the door for example, it seems like an elementary quality check would have caught that at the factory. The quality control team at Robertson & Caine should be really embarrassed! As you alluded, it appears quality control in the production of new yachts is an industry wide problem. There is a great opportunity for a builder to differentiate themselves with higher quality out the door. Great video!!! Thank you.
As you mentioned, this is an industry wide problem. We are very pleased with our Leopard 45 - we've heard stories of similar, if not worse, problems with other manufacturers. Leopard makes a good quality boat and with the demand - we had to wait 2 years to get our boat - it's to be expected that their will be some issues. And, R&C has been very good at either replacing or providing a solution a third party can use.
I don't think that's realistic. Or if they did do that, then the price would double or triple with the amount of QA needed. Also, and just as importantly, things happen over time. Especially on a boat that is put under stress during the very thing it was built for (sailing). Many times things will seem perfectly fine. But put it under load for a few days, put it in the tropical heat, and things can happen. It's a part of the game. And R&C seem to have supported LabMariner as much as they could with all those teething issues.
My guess is that all of the door and broken glass issues are the result of mast rigging forces over some period of time and possibly some additional forces during some windy passages. If these alignment issues happened in one short instance, it would have been loud and obvious.
Just about any complex, limited quantity item like this will have issues upon delivery. This is even true of aircraft believe it or not. Especially corporate jets. During the 2000's when corporate jets were rolling off the line at a break neck pace they all left the factory with issues. They went almost directly to the Service Centers where we would fix many issues under warranty. I would say things have improved though. One of the things that makes a company is how they deal with it. Great video.
Interesting! As I mentioned, this is an industry wide problem and from what I've heard from other boaters, our boat has less problems than other popular brands. We love our boat and wouldn't have chosen another but wanted to let people know what to expect - especially if they haven't owned a boat before.
Dont know if anyone cares but if you are bored like me during the covid times you can watch pretty much all of the latest series on InstaFlixxer. I've been binge watching with my gf for the last few weeks xD
Excellent info, but I don't know why try to release responsibility from manufacturer of all the issues they are responsible for...you payed for a high quality construction as they advertise ...etc...thank you for so honest video..
Thanks for watching! The manufacturer stood by their product and helped us to make any necessary repairs and the repairs mentioned were covered under warranty.
Seems that leopard hasn’t their quality control up to par. Others do sail a new boat before delivering and go over each screw/bolt etc. Leopard is no exception. I’d say Lagoon is as bad or worse. But even if everything is perfect the reality is that screws can work them selves loose, Velcro doesn’t like uv or lots of pressure.. design is not always perfect… it’s a boat and maintenance is a serious part of it.
Because of all the nonsense surrounding the cracking of bulkheads on the Lagoon 450 its valuable to hear "real" feedback from a "real" owner. Amazes me how many people there are that were going to buy a new Lagoon but have changed their mind. LOL, yeah right its easy to type on a key board and hide behind your hard drive that you were "going to buy one" but quite another to actually buy (and have the 1/2 to 1 million bucks to pay for it) and experience actual ownership issues.
So glad you enjoyed it! We found that our early problems actually helped us to learn more about how the boat works. And, since one of the realities of owning a boat is that there will always be something to fix, it helped us to develop the confidence to fix things on our own rather than always rely on a boat yard.
If the manufacturer will honor warranty, and pay a licensed repair shop to fix warranted issues, then I would say that when you decide to buy a boat, get your own license as a repair business, then when you fix warranted issues yourself, you can turn it in and get paid for labor. Quality control will go up as labor and parts reimbursement goes up….pay the owners for warranted labor.
Thanks for the video. I do think an easier fix to the clutch would have been a quadruple clutch replacement if you were willing to have an extra empty slot.
Sounds an awful lot like the automotive industry of the 1970s. Automakers eventually learned that quality flows from the design process: design it right from the beginning, make it easy for the “factory” to build it right, and you change the customers’ experience dramatically. No amount of assembly line inspection can cure poor design. Sounds as tho the ship building industry has yet to learn those lessons.
I work as a surveyor on new build yachts everyday and most of the problems can be caught at the yard level if the dealer is willing to have each boat inspected at the shipyard.
Thanks for this fascinating video! I believe indeed that most production boats have similar issues. We chartered a new Dufour 460 in Martinique a few years ago and the auto-pilot died on us after 2 days of sailing,... + a few other smaller issues... I think that it you are willing to pay a bit more for an Outremer or similar you will most probably face fewer issues. But the price is of course significantly higher.
So glad you enjoyed it. There are trade-offs with any boat that you buy and after almost three years of owning our Leopard 45 we wouldn't trade our boat for another.
I get that few boats are made. Fifty boats however is a very good amount to work out the bugs. many of those deficiencies are unacceptable after the first five. like a pilot's start up procedures. you always use the checklist. leave nothing to chance. ceiling panels falling off? rusting fridges? these are not accidents.
Since Leopards are delivered on the bottom from SA you would expect this issues would have been identified by the delivery captain/crew then fixed before the hand over.
Leopards have been delivered by cargo ship since at least 2018, when we bought our boat. We received it with almost 0 hours on the engines - which seemed nice at the time - but it might have been nicer if a delivery captain could have spotted some of the issues before handover. Our shakedown sail was from Dania Beach, FL to the Chesapeake with a captain and that's where we noticed many of the issues.
I really appreciate your video and as a boat owner feel for the challenges faced each and every day keeping a boat functioning to spec. That said, I honestly believe manufacturers can do a better job making sure “bolts” or whatever is assembled are done with more care, attention and diligence. The concept of making only a few compared to many each day , month or year should actually support better workmanship not worse. As with many products and I assume boats are no different, it comes down to design, assembly and attention to detail. Almost everything you have endured with this boat did not have to happen with better leadership, management and assembly. I know nothing about Leopards or even building a boat but do know manufacturing, leadership and management. All of that said, my main issue with boats is the designers rarely take ease of Mai thence/repairs into account. In my boat even checking the sea strainer is a challenge. If I ever found a perfect boat…
That video was really informative thank you. Would you say that the quality assurance policies need approving in catamaran production processes? I would think for the amount one would pay for such a vessel these issues that are known from the delivery captain you hired to the leopard community would be addressed since a small amount of catamarans are made yearly.
So glad you enjoyed it! I don't know what the best solution is. Some of these problems were only present on our boat and some were found on other boats as well. And, I have not heard of any life threatening problems.
We love our boat and wouldn't have chosen another. Just wanted to give people a realistic idea of what boat life is like - and buying a new boat doesn't insure that there will not be any problems🙂.
@@LabMariner Yes I fully understand where you’re coming from! 😃 I’ve heard people with other production makes with these type of issues, non the less they still love their boat!! As you pointed out, be prepared to start fixing. 😃 Regards Nigel
Your first 3 problems profiled probably aren't exclusive to Leopard, it seems that there was probably hull flexing or twist when lifting the boat with slings. By crane or travel lift doesn't matter, the hulls are flexing outboard while the Rig goes slack. I've heard a Naval Architect mention that the only proper way to lift a production Cat is only from below the bridge deck with lateral bracing (obviously this isn't practical from lifting in/out of the water or onto a container ship deck). While the ceiling panel issue may or may not have been caused by that, it seems like the sliding door frame got slightly twisted and thats what caused the glass crack.
I'm guessing the mast rigging forces have slowly warped the deck bulkheads or cracked bulkhead tabbing and generated all the door alignment and cracked window issues.
Emm...not a boat owner so you must have been very patient to of dealt with this large number of snags, and as you say its not high volume production so its a big surprise to this mechanical production engineer that you had so many issues to deal with. I would of been reading the riot act to the boat manufacturers it being a new boat and would have expected a higher level of craftmanship? But as you say when you sail its on your shoulders! Great Video.
From talking with other owners of new boats, this seems to be a problem with new boats from other manufacturers as well. Not the best situation but if you wanted to find all the issues it would have required an extensive sea trial - which would have meant additional costs to the owners.
Where if any is the quality control and shakedown cruise before it leaves the builder's yard. With only 50-60 a year being built surely some repeated issues would be identified and addressed. Some of the issues you noted could be located by the manufacturer, others obviously come after time & voyages. I sailed on a new HH and was quite astounded from the continual annoyances of having to fix 'new' things....
We are very happy with our boat and wouldn't have bought another. With this many working parts you can't expect to not find issues🙂. R&C has been very supportive and we are pleased with their customer service.
I was wondering after watching other videos on CZcams about hull issues on Leopards. Have you ever checked or have someone else do it for you for dry spots in the hull ?
It's a production boat, it's built to a price and they just can't spend the extra time on every small part of the construction. So it's the trade off for getting a boat at a cheap price, compared to a custom build that costs a heap more but but has a lot more hours spent on it..
Anything this big with this many parts that is thrown around on an ocean is going to have issues. I still lust after this model and love your approach to the issues that any boat could have.
We love our boat and wouldn't have bought another. This is an industry wide issue - one that has to be expected with this many working parts. R&C has been very supportive and we have no complaints about our boat🙂.
I just find this so hard to understand on a “luxury” purchase like this. I was expecting better fit and finish for a near $1m purchase. Typically items that are made in limited quantities and by hand have a higher degree of craftsmanship not worse. How hard is it to make sure the screws are tight on the sail bushings? How hard is it to test the salon door? Great info, just very very surprised.
This shouldn't be that surprising with 2 year wait times for a new catamaran. This is more akin to building a new house than a new car and new home builds have definitely seen decreases in quality worksmanship over the years.
Is the door alignment wrong or is the alignment of the hulls causing the doors not to latch...lots of videos of sloppy design/building with Leopards in the bulkhead areas.
The boat arrived by transport ship with only 1 hour of time on the engines after being dropped in Ft. Lauderdale. Therefore, the issues we saw could not have been caused by an issue with the bulkheads. I am not aware of any of the Leopard models suffering from bulkhead issues.
Thanks for the vid, very interesting! A long time ago people i know bought a new boat and paid for the boat to be commisioned, meaning the owners and a person from the yard sailed an ran the boat and it,s systems for some time to find and fix any problems. Did you have something similar?
So glad you enjoyed it! Our boat was transported by ship directly to Ft. Lauderdale where we received it. It had a few miles to reach the dealership but the first shakedown sail was after we took ownership.
Thanks! Very useful! I have L45 on order and I'm writing notes for me with things to check at handover. Thanks for all your efforts doing such amazing videos!
Congratulations on the new boat! Even though we describe some of the problems we've had, we wouldn't trade our L45 in for any other boat. Hope to see you out on the water🐶🐶🐶!
Cost Time Quality. You can have any two but not all 3. Wirh respect to quality control, it's very difficult to do properly - and if you are doing it properly, it's expensive and time consuming.
I am sorry, but if I am spending the amount of money it requires to purchase these limited run vessels, i expect the assemblers of these boats TO KNOW HOW TO ASSEMBLE IT!!! If this was a Lamborghini, or a Ferrari, the quality control you found would be unacceptable! It amazes me the QC issues you found were MISSED by the factory. Makes me wonder if a Leopard boat is one I should be looking at to purchase.
Great video, very interesting. Does your delivery skipper give feed back to Leopard production to iron out all these known issues. It’s the only way to improve the product and ultimately sell more..?
Glad you enjoyed it! The captain we worked with does not work directly for Leopard. We notify Leopard through our warranty claims and they have access to the owner Facebook page where the owners post questions regarding problems.
Sounds like a good suggestion. Though not usual for a brand new boat that only had about 5 nm on its engines. These boats are now hauled by transport ship directly to Ft. Lauderdale, FL where they are handed over to the owner.
@@LabMariner Not usual? I know. But why? Hand over hundreds of thousands of pounds for a boat, without any independent oversight of the build or finished product. when its well known that pretty much nothing works as it should on these boats? Atually when buying a new boat, buyer should get at least two surverys done. One during the production stage, and when the boat is finished. If they commission the boat in another country then there should be a 3rd survery. Only when buyers stop handing them the final payments until all the faults in the final survery have been rectified, these companies will change their ways.
As a prospective buyer, the lack of warranty and extended service plans is very disconcerting. I appreciate LabMariner’s analogy to car production, but that wasn’t apples to apples. A better comparison is with super/hypercars. There’s tons of small boat fabricators that produce tons of boats that are “turn key” and those are analogues to the gmc and fords. These production yacht companies are more like Ferrari, Koenigseg, or Bugatti. Those are limited production vehicles sometimes only producing 20 vehicles, with a price range that is also similar to these vessels. The car manufacturers do not have the slurry of issues any boat would have at time of sale, and when there are problems, the car companies let you drive another while yours is being fixed. With vehicles approaching and exceeding 300mph, you better believe they are just as if not more complex than a yacht, with more small and intricate parts. Both yachts and supercars are potentially very lethal, especially if there’s a manufacturing defect. It’s unconscionable that yacht companies don’t feel the same sense of pride in their work and safety of their customers like the supercar industry. Until the after sales care for yachts matches or exceeds supercars, words won’t convince me they feel otherwise.
The manufacturer provides a 2 year warranty and extended warranties on many of the parts. As we mentioned in the video, the manufacturer reimbursed the costs to fix any of the repairs that were handled by third parties.
Jim and Stephanie - Thank you for sharing. Extremely helpful video. I'm expecting my L45 to arrive in early June and have been building my check list of potential issue to look out for. Were you allowed on the boat after arrival in Dania Beach, but before handover to help find the issues?
Congratulations! Good that you're coming well prepared to your handover. The dealer does detailing work before handover - it's a long transport from Cape Town - so we had to wait until handover to see the boat - may have changed.
I enjoyed your presentation of the truth in new boat ownership and have subscribed. But lets be honest. While the occurrence of some of these issues are totally normal with use and time, they are not normal nor acceptable on a new boat. Issues such as failure to torque hatch screws or incorrectly installing blocks etc. indicate a lack of worker training, lack of attention to detail, lack of proper manufacturing/installation processes, and/or inadequate quality control processes. As long as owners of new boats continue to state “I expect these issues” rather than clearly stating on such public forums that these issues are totally unacceptable and the manufacturer falls short on delivering a qualaity product, then they have no incentive to improve - because owners have inferred “its OK” for you to sell me a substandard product that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Every issue described was either engineering or workmanship failures that should have been resolved at the factory years ago. The glass installation and door issues point to design inflexibility which are characteristc with multi hull boats. Expecting owners to accept production errors is beyond owner maintenance responsibility. With prices near premium cat level buyers must understand Leopards are attractive but not top shelf.
Delivery, what the heck is that about? I put a tent on a raft constructed with Wine Barrels to make the most perfect pontoon boat. I slammed a barbecue on it with 2 454 outboard engines and got me a Wilson Volleyball!
We have not seen any indication of a bulkhead issue. The Leopard 45 has been produced since 2016 and none of the owners have reported a bulkhead issue.
It’s quite simple really .. it’s called Quality Control (QC), and every manufacturer, from cellphones to cars to boats, is responsible for the utmost commitment of QC to ensure every customer receives a product wholly tested, irrespective of market conditions...your reputation depends on it.
That didn’t answer the issue QC when buying a brand new, hand made boat, with a commitment to providing a catamaran completely checked over. Stunned that you accept the numerous quality issues for a brand new boat. Would one expect the same issues of buying a Rolls Royce, much cheaper than buying a Leopard 45? And you’re not the first to highlight many QC issues with Leopard. I’m now of the opinion that until Leopard sorts it’s QC, I’m looking elsewhere. Sad, because I was set on buying a new 45.
I've seen a bunch of these new boat videos recently, and other boat repair videos, and the Q.A. on these boats just suck. They're especially bad with Leopard, it's clear, and may be concentrated on these semi-custom catamaran condos, but failing new engines, software that doesn't work, design mistakes, and even motoring speed being nowhere near advertised, are all unacceptable. Did Catalina, Beneteau, Nauticat, Choy Lee, etc., have these kinds of issues with their production monohulls?
How did the boat get to you from the manufacturer in South Africa? Surely most of these problems should have been found and rectified on the delivery voyage?
Our catamaran was loaded onto a transport ship in South Africa. Therefore, her only voyage before we took possession was from the transport ship to the dealer.
@@LabMariner Ah, OK, thanks. I know Robertson & Caine sometimes sail charter boats to Thailand and the Mediterranean as part of their shake-down. I have an old Robertson monohull (built 1991) and have found a couple of manufacturing defects since buying her a year ago.
im a contactor. I learned in my first year that it is at least three times more expensive to remedy a problem after completion than to just do it right the first time. that is of course if you plan on making it right for the customer. these cat companies that are sending fix kits or instruction emails will not change because they are not being held truly accountable. I am apt to think I would pay more for a one year old boat debugged than a brand new one.
Lots of the issues you describe seem to be linked to poor quality control and in some cases design faults . It never ceases to amaze me that boaters who are spending huge amounts of money just seem to accept that design flaws and/or poor workmanship are just the way it is .I think that the guy from Sailing Zatara had it right in his video on the subject ,these issues should be down to the guy that sells you the new boat not the buyer. Even if the manufacturer stands behind his product and pays for the repairs/replacement of parts which is debatable,the aggravation and more so the time lost waiting for repairs and warranty work seems unacceptable to me in this day and age .
After 3 years, we still love our boat and wouldn't trade it for another. But, with at least a 2 year wait for a new boat and with owners pressuring manufacturers to get their boat finished as soon as possible, having a few problems to work out with a new boat seems the new normal.
@@LabMariner Wow really? accepting poor quality on a very expensive product is the new norm? What you describe is far from a few problems. Even larger issues are coming to light with Leopards.
I think you were too kind at the beginning saying that you weren't critisising the manufacturers. Leopard are a well known boat builder and, at least I thought, have a good reputation. So many issues, so much to do as an owner, WTF. Delivering a boat with such fundamental problems and bad-build issues is disgraceful, especially for so much money!!!
Thanks for watching! We're happy with our boat and after 2 years wouldn't trade her in for another. As we stated in the video, this appears to be an industry wide issue and not specific to any particular manufacturer.
Interestingly, we were deciding between buying a used Lagoon 450 and a new Leopard 45. We decided to wait the two years so we could get a new boat. Even with the initial problems, we've been very happy with our Leopard 45 and definitely learned a lot about our boat.
I'm not an expert, however I have built two homes with very expert persons and the fact is I follow also builders of Cats, one issue I feel is not mentioned is that in the assembly of these vessels in the production lines is that they may not be accurately leveling the vessel or that the hulk heads once fully loaded and the placed on the water flex and there goes any true angle, so with that load and flex you get cracked windows and doors that do not fit flush perhaps do not close and so much more and this is a worry as that flex sets in! I feel all manufacturers now are pumping out these crafts without taking into effect the flex, there is not so much flex that your vessel is unsafe although that massive cockpit sliding door is a massive worry! One solution is to build in their marina and cover slip to lower in the mold into actual water and assemble, the more wieght that is placed on the hull the more flex and that is structural!
We have not heard of other Leopard 45s having a cracked window at delivery. Also, we have neither heard of other boats in the Leopard line having bulk head issues or flexing problems nor have we experienced any problems since delivery. After 3 years, we we've concluded that the window and door problems were quality control issues rather than a structural issues. With the demand for new catamarans being so high and the number of suppliers being so low, it is not surprising that buyers (of all brands of catamarans) are experiencing some quality control issues.
Yes. A lot of the owners complained about them in the older models. I've seen a new model and it looks like the manufacturer is using screws to attach the panels - so no more falling down😀.
Thanks for the video. I'm amazed at how relaxed you are about all the flaws.
I originally come from the construction business, a small list of rework at pre-acceptance is normal, however my company has never been faced with warranty claims after handover. OK I am German and many of us take Made in Germany very seriously.
My insight on Leopard (Robertson & Caine) is quite simple. R&C save themselves the quality control (similar to Microsoft,...there the users have to find the bugs) and leave the troubleshooting to the buyers. In principle, this is a possibility for business concepts, but in the price range of catamarans, this is from my point of view, a strong slap in the face of buyers.
Even if R&C takes over the costs, because warranty, it is nevertheless rather in such a way, which buyers, who buy themselves a brand-new product, exactly these problems of lack evenly do not want to have and therefore also substantially more pay, than with a used Catamaran.
Thanks for watching! We love our boat and after 2 years wouldn't trade it for another.
i agree with you. the metaphor with the auto industry can only go so far. when was the last time you splash half a million USD (probably, even more than that) on a car and "expect " to have flaws. the cheapest Bugatti sells for 1.5 million, there are tons of cats valued at or above that sailing around, being delivered everyday. do they expect faults?! like the front left brake suddenly stops working?. the thing here is, like you said, quality control. and these big manufacturers arent very good at it. the reality lies somewhere in this: manufacturers want to sell boats. people want to buy boats. now, most people think a boat is like a car, it isnt, thats their first mistake. is takes way more to be a sailor than to be a driver. most people then want to look good in the picture and buy boats, which, had they been properly monitored they wouldnt have the money to buy, because time is money and someone needs to get paid. in the end guess who gets bitten? if there is an instance where a car and a boat are similiar is the waste of money to get them new. research, get a well cared second hand boat, then kit it out for your type of sailing. anyone who knows half a thing about boats knows that the cost is in the gear not the building of the hull, thats the cheap part
@@pmnfernando Yes, I'm right there with you, I see it essentially the same way.
I like almost no Cat's in their basic version, you can't avoid, if you buy a Cat, to individualize and optimize it, as you want it in the end.
Unfortunately, this is all a very expensive project. i myself have it in the planning stages, but it will take a long time to ultimately implement. However, my basic model will ultimately be a Privelege, which is already very solid from the base and only needs fine-tuning.
Thanks for the honest and thorough feedback. Great vid
Glad you enjoyed it! Wanted to present a dose of the reality of boat ownership🙂.
After hearing all these horror stories of a new boat, I would highly suggest that every single person hire someone to give you a survey of the boat that way before you make it your problem, you have them give you a list to hand to them to fix before you take the boat
Be careful. We have friends whose surveyor missed the fact the boat was infested with termites and was a constructive loss. Over 5 years of legal fighting to get a resolution. One of the things I do during prebuy is google every piece of major equipment to see what issues come up. There is a ton of knowledge in the forums and when I was getting into cruising spent literally hundreds of hours reading forums and books.
You, as the buyer are your best advocate. Think about the boat transaction. Every party wants the transaction to happen so everyone gets paid. Surveyors are often recommended by the broker - and guess what: if the surveyor is too "picky", they get in the way of closing the deal and their phone doesn't ring anymore.
its a production yacht, no point comparing it to auto makers. theres no reason they cant fix these things at the yard, but everything thing comes from the top. owners putting mangers under pressure to make profits, and it goes down the chain where workers on the line miss steps out and quality control isnt good enough. for the price of a leopard this is unacceptable. Appreciate your honesty.
So glad you enjoyed it!
What an awesome video! Thanks so much for that. I dream one day of buying a Leopard 45 so it’s like watching a detailed video on MY boat. :) It’s a bit daunting being the one who will need to fix or organise a fix on these things, but it is doable and your description of the processes was very helpful. We don’t know each other, likely will never meet, but I feel a real affinity for you two and those beautiful dogs and boat after seeing parts of your life so closely. Thanks so much for sharing. I hope you have many more years of mostly trouble-free sailing. Unlikely to ever be entirely trouble free... so I hope after your diligence it’s largely trouble free. :)
Thanks for watching and such a kind message🙂. Hoping you are able to buy your dream boat - but it's always good to see the big picture - which includes a lot of work. It's very doable - but definitely not for everyone and something you need to be prepared for. We love our Leopard 45 and wouldn't trade her for another - but sometimes she can be a bit of a challenge🙂.
thanks for the video, I would never buy a leopard. There is a family from Australia who have engine problems on a brand new Leopard. And everyone shifts the responsibility.
A list of issues without seeming to complain about them. Well done
Thanks for watching! One of the realities of boat ownership is that you're going to find something that needs to be fixed or replaced after every season🙂.
This is such an excellent video guys. Pointing out the simple angle of a sheet on the clutch highlights the importance of alignment and in the case of the auto pilot I am amazed that something so critical would be lost at the quality control level on final check off. Thanks for making these issues apparent to all of us. Cheers Ross.
Thanks for watching!
Looking at possibly buying new....thanks for this episode. Plus, I'm the first commenter ! :)
Thanks for watching! We definitely do not regret buying a new boat or buying our Leopard 45. Just wanted to present a dose of reality to those looking to buy a boat - new or used🙂.
I’m so glad I came across your video! We have purchased a Leopard 50 and take delivery in October. We are putting her in the Moorings program for 5 years so all the bugs should be worked out when we get her. We went to South Africa at the beginning of May and were impressed with Roberson and Caines operations. We met the head of quality control and were impressed with the oversight. We’ve owned new boats in the past and there are issues with all of them. We look forward to your future videos and are happy that you are happy with your Leopard purchase. It’s great that Leopard is watching your videos and I’m certain they are making positive changes for future buyers. Keep up the great work, hopefully we cross paths someday. We are looking forward to our new adventure! Cheers 🍻🤙🏽
Congratulations on your new purchase - the Leopard 50 is a beautiful boat! So glad you enjoyed the video. And, so glad that you understood our message - that there are issues with all new boats regardless of the manufacturer.
loved this video, had to share with the wife -- over the past 30 years many new boats -- my wife always wondered why so many things had to be fixed:-) on a new boat. just working on our final order for Leopard 45, adjusting the build list based on some of your videos.
Congratulations! We love our L45 and after 3 years wouldn't choose another make or model. Jim definitely enjoys the projects that come from boat ownership - but it's not for everyone 🙂.
Once you finish putting it through sea trials and fixing all these little issues, I'd be interested in buying your boat. :-)
Very true! We've had the boat for 2 1/2 years and the problems have changed to maintenance and replacement issues. But it did feel nice to receive a brand new boat 🙂.
Great video, you are so right. We just bought a new Excess 15. It is basically a souped up Lagoon 50. We have done one shake down cruise and it is being worked on now. Hoping to do some more sailing before we leave for Mexico in November.
Glad you enjoyed it! Good to get that shakedown sail in and return to an area where there are boatyards that are knowledgeable about your boat.
Believe it or not, I just looked at the FP Elba 45 in Fort Lauderdale today. Tomorrow I’m going to the Leopard dealership in Dania Beach to go aboard the Leopard 45 and 50. Thank you for sharing this video and I discovered another video on YT with a Leopard 50 engine and swim platform problems. I can now say I’m NOT going to be purchasing a Leopard catamaran. I may spend the $1.6 million on a Equisite X5 Plus. F off to Leopard.
Thanks for watching! Best wishes finding a boat that just right for you🐶🐶🐶!
Run a tight line across the floors from hull to hull in several locations. Also check vertical walls in each hull when at rest in a calm anchorage or slip. These checks will help to indicate if your structures are warped due to the mast rigging forces.
Thanks for the suggestion. Very useful.
Wanted to check out some reviews about Leopard 45 on the net. I believe everything that Jim said, I was just curious if there are more issues with that model. It seems that such information costs money. Thanks for telling the truth for free!
I'll stay with my dinghy 😜
We love our boat and wouldn't have chosen another. The manufacturer has been great with providing support for any problems we find but it's a boat and with this many working parts there are going to be problems. The reality is that not everyone is the type of person who wants to deal with getting those problems fixed🙂. Thanks for watching!
For your rear window with crack... Some heavy truck windshields and cars glue in a similiiar fashion. Might try a truck windshield place for installment... It might be worth getting a windshield repair person out and they might be able to fill the crack in the exsisting window.
Thanks for the suggestion!
I am a boat builder for a motorboat builder in Uk. We use Fastmounts for ceilings. Small plastic clips. Its very easy to fit, very easy to pull down the ceiling, but stays up!
Thanks! Very helpful.
Jim and Stephanie, thank you for taking the time to detail explain some of the problems that required fixing with your brand new boat. These obvious and somewhat small problems unfortunately “hint at a story” of what could be bigger larger problems. Hopefully while in the middle of the Ocean the worse ones don’t make an appearance! Ceiling tiles attachments could be a design problem. Lucky the work around worked. It’s the more important hidden possible problems that worry me and possibly others. Ex.. Recently a few owners of Lagoon 450 discovered broken Bulkheads. They are on CZcams. Looking closely the connection between structural parts use built-in Bosses with a very thick putty type glue that unfortunately breaks away. This caused the Twisting as shown by sliding doors and other mating parts not correctly closing. If not corrected, the boat assembly structure could be thought as being very fragile, unfit for sailing! Who’s to say how your sliding door got out of square? 👉Could be how it was lifted as commented here. You might want to make sure important assembly connections, like bulkheads to inner assembly units are well secured. Lagoon did help one 450 owner with describing where the bulkheads are, how to expose them to check and what areas need to be check for trueness. Providing this technical information other owners found Bulkhead attachment problems.
Thanks for watching! The Leopard 45 has been in production since 2016 and we haven't heard of any major structural issues from any of the owners. As you mentioned, the repairs that we detailed were relatively minor.
A representative from Lagoon had stated that they would fix the bulkheads on boats that hadn't been "compromised" by hurricanes or running aground, but I'm not on the facebook group so I don't know if they have made good on their promise. Seeing some of the issues owners have illustrated on youtube, it has me questioning whether some of the problems are due to poor design, or just poor construction.
Awesome video. Instead of complaining about the problems you went into fixing the problems yourself. I would have thought that doing some things would void the warranty but from your explanation I have a better understanding of why it might be better to tackle some of these issues if you are able. Thanks.
So glad you enjoyed it! We've definitely learned a lot about our boat from making these small fixes. Definitely makes us feel more confident that we can handle any larger problems that may come.
So quality control is non-existent. Spending 5-600,000.00 for a boat is not enough to expect things to be done correctly? This does not speak well of manufactures.
We love our boat and wouldn't trade it for another. For the number of working parts and because it's subject to marine use, it's not surprising that there are going to be some problems. The manufacturer has been very good at helping us to fix the problems and we have no complaints.
I understand that you are happy with your boat. Nonetheless, the number of screws and bolts, the thousands of components that make up a boat, the reality that they only make 50 or so a year, these are no reason to be so sloppy with their manufacturing process. It is, frankly, pathetic that any company would use such excuses to hide their incompetence.
Personally, I would be seriously pissed over any company taking a serious amount of money from me, only to give me a product that wreaks with their incompetence in manufacturing and utter contempt for their clients. But that’s me.
Thank you for sharing.
All new boats have issues but all manufacturers are not the same when it comes to after market care. Nor are they all the same in regard to manufacturing quality controls. It's really important to look into this before purchase. Personally, I would not buy a Leopard
Thanks for sharing. It's the same where I am when you buy a new apartment. Lots of little things that don't work and some big things as well. When I bought my last apartment, we often got together with our neighbours and had bitch sessions about the builders.
Thanks for watching! Similarly, we participate in an owner's group where we try to figure out how to fix things.
Thank you for this video... I am preparing to buy a brand new Beneteau Oceanis, and now, i will check carrefully the boat before signing the receipt.
Glad it was helpful! Good luck with your new boat.
Thank you Jim & Stephanie for your candidness throughout your video. I gotta tell 'ya you should not have had so many issues with your NEW boat. Candidly I perceive you were too willing to make apologies for Leopard and their workmanship & over build quality. Unless I can verify Leopard has majorly corrected these unforced errors Leopard is off my consideration list.
Leopard should grateful you weren't dealing with me over these issues --this Marine takes no prisoners' getting issues resolved correctly and at your expense
We love our boat and after almost 3 years of owning her wouldn't chose another make or model. All boats have issues and it's good to find a manufacturer that is willing to stand by their product.
On the screws, just like when the wheels are taken off a vehicle, it is a good idea to drive several miles and check the lug nuts again because flexion and temperature changes can make them require another go with the torque wrench.
I'd be interested to know how the builder, Leopard/Robertson&Caine, plan to eliminate many of these issues in their manufacturing process going forward. For some of these issues, the door for example, it seems like an elementary quality check would have caught that at the factory. The quality control team at Robertson & Caine should be really embarrassed! As you alluded, it appears quality control in the production of new yachts is an industry wide problem. There is a great opportunity for a builder to differentiate themselves with higher quality out the door. Great video!!! Thank you.
As you mentioned, this is an industry wide problem. We are very pleased with our Leopard 45 - we've heard stories of similar, if not worse, problems with other manufacturers. Leopard makes a good quality boat and with the demand - we had to wait 2 years to get our boat - it's to be expected that their will be some issues. And, R&C has been very good at either replacing or providing a solution a third party can use.
I don't think that's realistic. Or if they did do that, then the price would double or triple with the amount of QA needed. Also, and just as importantly, things happen over time. Especially on a boat that is put under stress during the very thing it was built for (sailing). Many times things will seem perfectly fine. But put it under load for a few days, put it in the tropical heat, and things can happen. It's a part of the game. And R&C seem to have supported LabMariner as much as they could with all those teething issues.
Very well said.
My guess is that all of the door and broken glass issues are the result of mast rigging forces over some period of time and possibly some additional forces during some windy passages. If these alignment issues happened in one short instance, it would have been loud and obvious.
Just about any complex, limited quantity item like this will have issues upon delivery. This is even true of aircraft believe it or not. Especially corporate jets. During the 2000's when corporate jets were rolling off the line at a break neck pace they all left the factory with issues. They went almost directly to the Service Centers where we would fix many issues under warranty. I would say things have improved though. One of the things that makes a company is how they deal with it. Great video.
Interesting! As I mentioned, this is an industry wide problem and from what I've heard from other boaters, our boat has less problems than other popular brands. We love our boat and wouldn't have chosen another but wanted to let people know what to expect - especially if they haven't owned a boat before.
Dont know if anyone cares but if you are bored like me during the covid times you can watch pretty much all of the latest series on InstaFlixxer. I've been binge watching with my gf for the last few weeks xD
@Nova Robert Yea, I've been watching on instaflixxer for months myself =)
Excellent video, thanks, very good general advise that most people take for granted, me included.
Excellent info, but I don't know why try to release responsibility from manufacturer of all the issues they are responsible for...you payed for a high quality construction as they advertise ...etc...thank you for so honest video..
Thanks for watching! The manufacturer stood by their product and helped us to make any necessary repairs and the repairs mentioned were covered under warranty.
Seems that leopard hasn’t their quality control up to par. Others do sail a new boat before delivering and go over each screw/bolt etc.
Leopard is no exception. I’d say Lagoon is as bad or worse. But even if everything is perfect the reality is that screws can work them selves loose, Velcro doesn’t like uv or lots of pressure.. design is not always perfect… it’s a boat and maintenance is a serious part of it.
I love it, “the cruise director” lol
What a tremendous resource.
So glad you enjoyed it!
I am surprised loctite blue thread locker on some of those screw/nut combinations (like your main sail) is not a standard practice. Great Video :)
Great point! So glad you enjoyed the video!
Wow, eye opening! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Because of all the nonsense surrounding the cracking of bulkheads on the Lagoon 450 its valuable to hear "real" feedback from a "real" owner. Amazes me how many people there are that were going to buy a new Lagoon but have changed their mind. LOL, yeah right its easy to type on a key board and hide behind your hard drive that you were "going to buy one" but quite another to actually buy (and have the 1/2 to 1 million bucks to pay for it) and experience actual ownership issues.
So glad you enjoyed it! We found that our early problems actually helped us to learn more about how the boat works. And, since one of the realities of owning a boat is that there will always be something to fix, it helped us to develop the confidence to fix things on our own rather than always rely on a boat yard.
If the manufacturer will honor warranty, and pay a licensed repair shop to fix warranted issues, then I would say that when you decide to buy a boat, get your own license as a repair business, then when you fix warranted issues yourself, you can turn it in and get paid for labor. Quality control will go up as labor and parts reimbursement goes up….pay the owners for warranted labor.
Thanks for the video. I do think an easier fix to the clutch would have been a quadruple clutch replacement if you were willing to have an extra empty slot.
Thanks for watching!
Sounds an awful lot like the automotive industry of the 1970s. Automakers eventually learned that quality flows from the design process: design it right from the beginning, make it easy for the “factory” to build it right, and you change the customers’ experience dramatically. No amount of assembly line inspection can cure poor design. Sounds as tho the ship building industry has yet to learn those lessons.
Thanks for watching!
I work as a surveyor on new build yachts everyday and most of the problems can be caught at the yard level if the dealer is willing to have each boat inspected at the shipyard.
Sounds like a good practice for the industry.
Thanks for this fascinating video!
I believe indeed that most production boats have similar issues. We chartered a new Dufour 460 in Martinique a few years ago and the auto-pilot died on us after 2 days of sailing,... + a few other smaller issues...
I think that it you are willing to pay a bit more for an Outremer or similar you will most probably face fewer issues. But the price is of course significantly higher.
So glad you enjoyed it. There are trade-offs with any boat that you buy and after almost three years of owning our Leopard 45 we wouldn't trade our boat for another.
I get that few boats are made. Fifty boats however is a very good amount to work out the bugs. many of those deficiencies are unacceptable after the first five. like a pilot's start up procedures. you always use the checklist. leave nothing to chance. ceiling panels falling off? rusting fridges? these are not accidents.
Thank you for watching!
Since Leopards are delivered on the bottom from SA you would expect this issues would have been identified by the delivery captain/crew then fixed before the hand over.
Leopards have been delivered by cargo ship since at least 2018, when we bought our boat. We received it with almost 0 hours on the engines - which seemed nice at the time - but it might have been nicer if a delivery captain could have spotted some of the issues before handover. Our shakedown sail was from Dania Beach, FL to the Chesapeake with a captain and that's where we noticed many of the issues.
I really appreciate your video and as a boat owner feel for the challenges faced each and every day keeping a boat functioning to spec. That said, I honestly believe manufacturers can do a better job making sure “bolts” or whatever is assembled are done with more care, attention and diligence. The concept of making only a few compared to many each day , month or year should actually support better workmanship not worse. As with many products and I assume boats are no different, it comes down to design, assembly and attention to detail. Almost everything you have endured with this boat did not have to happen with better leadership, management and assembly. I know nothing about Leopards or even building a boat but do know manufacturing, leadership and management. All of that said, my main issue with boats is the designers rarely take ease of Mai thence/repairs into account. In my boat even checking the sea strainer is a challenge. If I ever found a perfect boat…
amazing video. I learned so much. Thank you
Thank you for watching and glad you learned something. Dog hugs from the labmaraners 🐶🐶🐶!
@@LabMariner love your Chanel . Hopefully I can have my dogs with me in my next boat too. Great fan. Keep it going. Cheers from NYC
That video was really informative thank you. Would you say that the quality assurance policies need approving in catamaran production processes? I would think for the amount one would pay for such a vessel these issues that are known from the delivery captain you hired to the leopard community would be addressed since a small amount of catamarans are made yearly.
So glad you enjoyed it! I don't know what the best solution is. Some of these problems were only present on our boat and some were found on other boats as well. And, I have not heard of any life threatening problems.
Best video about this matter so far
Thanks so much for insight, this really helps!! 😃
We love our boat and wouldn't have chosen another. Just wanted to give people a realistic idea of what boat life is like - and buying a new boat doesn't insure that there will not be any problems🙂.
@@LabMariner Yes I fully understand where you’re coming from! 😃
I’ve heard people with other production makes with these type of issues, non the less they still love their boat!! As you pointed out, be prepared to start fixing. 😃
Regards Nigel
So true ,,, took me a few months to tune in, my first new boat
Your first 3 problems profiled probably aren't exclusive to Leopard, it seems that there was probably hull flexing or twist when lifting the boat with slings. By crane or travel lift doesn't matter, the hulls are flexing outboard while the Rig goes slack. I've heard a Naval Architect mention that the only proper way to lift a production Cat is only from below the bridge deck with lateral bracing (obviously this isn't practical from lifting in/out of the water or onto a container ship deck). While the ceiling panel issue may or may not have been caused by that, it seems like the sliding door frame got slightly twisted and thats what caused the glass crack.
Thanks for the insight!
I'm guessing the mast rigging forces have slowly warped the deck bulkheads or cracked bulkhead tabbing and generated all the door alignment and cracked window issues.
@@johnnybarbar7435 seems like many cats have bulkhead issues. Hopefully it's nothing like the lagoon 450.
Learned a lot. Thanks!
So glad you enjoyed it!
Emm...not a boat owner so you must have been very patient to of dealt with this large number of snags, and as you say its not high volume production so its a big surprise to this mechanical production engineer that you had so many issues to deal with. I would of been reading the riot act to the boat manufacturers it being a new boat and would have expected a higher level of craftmanship? But as you say when you sail its on your shoulders! Great Video.
From talking with other owners of new boats, this seems to be a problem with new boats from other manufacturers as well. Not the best situation but if you wanted to find all the issues it would have required an extensive sea trial - which would have meant additional costs to the owners.
Thanks for sharing this, appreciate it.
Jim you look like Hank from Breaking Bad btw :)
Thanks for watching! Glad you enjoyed it.
Where if any is the quality control and shakedown cruise before it leaves the builder's yard. With only 50-60 a year being built surely some repeated issues would be identified and addressed. Some of the issues you noted could be located by the manufacturer, others obviously come after time & voyages. I sailed on a new HH and was quite astounded from the continual annoyances of having to fix 'new' things....
We are very happy with our boat and wouldn't have bought another. With this many working parts you can't expect to not find issues🙂. R&C has been very supportive and we are pleased with their customer service.
I was wondering after watching other videos on CZcams about hull issues on Leopards. Have you ever checked or have someone else do it for you for dry spots in the hull ?
It's a production boat, it's built to a price and they just can't spend the extra time on every small part of the construction. So it's the trade off for getting a boat at a cheap price, compared to a custom build that costs a heap more but but has a lot more hours spent on it..
Thank you for watching! We are very pleased with our boat and would not trade it for another🙂.
I think it's poor quality labor out of Cape Town. You get what you pay for. Not to mention the civil unrest that happens frequently.
Anything this big with this many parts that is thrown around on an ocean is going to have issues. I still lust after this model and love your approach to the issues that any boat could have.
We love our boat and wouldn't have bought another. This is an industry wide issue - one that has to be expected with this many working parts. R&C has been very supportive and we have no complaints about our boat🙂.
I just find this so hard to understand on a “luxury” purchase like this. I was expecting better fit and finish for a near $1m purchase. Typically items that are made in limited quantities and by hand have a higher degree of craftsmanship not worse. How hard is it to make sure the screws are tight on the sail bushings? How hard is it to test the salon door? Great info, just very very surprised.
This shouldn't be that surprising with 2 year wait times for a new catamaran. This is more akin to building a new house than a new car and new home builds have definitely seen decreases in quality worksmanship over the years.
Wow!! Very informative. Thx
Glad it was helpful and thanks for watching!
What a great video, thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
EXCELENT. THANKS
Thanks for watching! So glad you enjoyed it.
Is the door alignment wrong or is the alignment of the hulls causing the doors not to latch...lots of videos of sloppy design/building with Leopards in the bulkhead areas.
The boat arrived by transport ship with only 1 hour of time on the engines after being dropped in Ft. Lauderdale. Therefore, the issues we saw could not have been caused by an issue with the bulkheads. I am not aware of any of the Leopard models suffering from bulkhead issues.
Thanks for the vid, very interesting! A long time ago people i know bought a new boat and paid for the boat to be commisioned, meaning the owners and a person from the yard
sailed an ran the boat and it,s systems for some time to find and fix any problems. Did you have something similar?
So glad you enjoyed it! Our boat was transported by ship directly to Ft. Lauderdale where we received it. It had a few miles to reach the dealership but the first shakedown sail was after we took ownership.
Thanks! Very useful! I have L45 on order and I'm writing notes for me with things to check at handover. Thanks for all your efforts doing such amazing videos!
Congratulations on the new boat! Even though we describe some of the problems we've had, we wouldn't trade our L45 in for any other boat. Hope to see you out on the water🐶🐶🐶!
Thanks.. Great video.
Glad you enjoyed it🙂!
Cost Time Quality. You can have any two but not all 3.
Wirh respect to quality control, it's very difficult to do properly - and if you are doing it properly, it's expensive and time consuming.
I am sorry, but if I am spending the amount of money it requires to purchase these limited run vessels, i expect the assemblers of these boats TO KNOW HOW TO ASSEMBLE IT!!!
If this was a Lamborghini, or a Ferrari, the quality control you found would be unacceptable!
It amazes me the QC issues you found were MISSED by the factory. Makes me wonder if a Leopard boat is one I should be looking at to purchase.
We love our boat and would not trade it for another. As we mentioned, all boats are going to have issues no matter the manufacturer.
Great video, very interesting. Does your delivery skipper give feed back to Leopard production to iron out all these known issues. It’s the only way to improve the product and ultimately sell more..?
Glad you enjoyed it! The captain we worked with does not work directly for Leopard. We notify Leopard through our warranty claims and they have access to the owner Facebook page where the owners post questions regarding problems.
Get a survey done on the boat before handover.
Sounds like a good suggestion. Though not usual for a brand new boat that only had about 5 nm on its engines. These boats are now hauled by transport ship directly to Ft. Lauderdale, FL where they are handed over to the owner.
@@LabMariner Not usual? I know. But why? Hand over hundreds of thousands of pounds for a boat, without any independent oversight of the build or finished product. when its well known that pretty much nothing works as it should on these boats? Atually when buying a new boat, buyer should get at least two surverys done. One during the production stage, and when the boat is finished. If they commission the boat in another country then there should be a 3rd survery. Only when buyers stop handing them the final payments until all the faults in the final survery have been rectified, these companies will change their ways.
Sounds like the Japanese need to start in this business.
Thanks for watching!
As a prospective buyer, the lack of warranty and extended service plans is very disconcerting. I appreciate LabMariner’s analogy to car production, but that wasn’t apples to apples. A better comparison is with super/hypercars. There’s tons of small boat fabricators that produce tons of boats that are “turn key” and those are analogues to the gmc and fords. These production yacht companies are more like Ferrari, Koenigseg, or Bugatti. Those are limited production vehicles sometimes only producing 20 vehicles, with a price range that is also similar to these vessels. The car manufacturers do not have the slurry of issues any boat would have at time of sale, and when there are problems, the car companies let you drive another while yours is being fixed. With vehicles approaching and exceeding 300mph, you better believe they are just as if not more complex than a yacht, with more small and intricate parts. Both yachts and supercars are potentially very lethal, especially if there’s a manufacturing defect. It’s unconscionable that yacht companies don’t feel the same sense of pride in their work and safety of their customers like the supercar industry. Until the after sales care for yachts matches or exceeds supercars, words won’t convince me they feel otherwise.
The manufacturer provides a 2 year warranty and extended warranties on many of the parts. As we mentioned in the video, the manufacturer reimbursed the costs to fix any of the repairs that were handled by third parties.
Really valuable! Thank you
Thank you for watching! Dog hugs from the labmaraners 🐶🐶🐶!
A boat should be built like a commercial plane not a car for QA
Very true! But as more and more people buy boats and are willing to wait years before receiving them - this is to be expected.
Jim and Stephanie - Thank you for sharing. Extremely helpful video. I'm expecting my L45 to arrive in early June and have been building my check list of potential issue to look out for. Were you allowed on the boat after arrival in Dania Beach, but before handover to help find the issues?
Congratulations! Good that you're coming well prepared to your handover. The dealer does detailing work before handover - it's a long transport from Cape Town - so we had to wait until handover to see the boat - may have changed.
@@LabMariner Procedure hasn't changed, I'll wait patiently. Thanks again for the insight.
Was this boat Captain delivered or loaded on a ship? Ships can damage the hulls and salon area with the way they load the boat on the deck...
I enjoyed your presentation of the truth in new boat ownership and have subscribed. But lets be honest. While the occurrence of some of these issues are totally normal with use and time, they are not normal nor acceptable on a new boat. Issues such as failure to torque hatch screws or incorrectly installing blocks etc. indicate a lack of worker training, lack of attention to detail, lack of proper manufacturing/installation processes, and/or inadequate quality control processes. As long as owners of new boats continue to state “I expect these issues” rather than clearly stating on such public forums that these issues are totally unacceptable and the manufacturer falls short on delivering a qualaity product, then they have no incentive to improve - because owners have inferred “its OK” for you to sell me a substandard product that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Thanks for watching!
the door being out of whack and the window tends to suggest the cat has bent.... check your bulk heads.
Thanks for the suggestion but we have seen no indication of any damage to the bulkheads.
@@LabMariner The indication is the door being un-aligned and the crack in the window.
Someone should make an online list of common faults with each brand!
Good suggestion!
It would appear that buying a preowned catamaran by a year or two would be another great option as well.
Good idea! But, you may have a problem finding one - the catamaran market is pretty popular now.
@@LabMariner interesting. Thank you for sharing your experience. I will put it to use in the approaching months during my search for a cat.
Damn... so many people having issues with cats regardless of brand. Sad, everyone seems like such great people.
Thanks for watching!
Every issue described was either engineering or workmanship failures that should have been resolved at the factory years ago. The glass installation and door issues point to design inflexibility which are characteristc with multi hull boats. Expecting owners to accept production errors is beyond owner maintenance responsibility.
With prices near premium cat level buyers must understand Leopards are attractive but not top shelf.
Delivery, what the heck is that about? I put a tent on a raft constructed with Wine Barrels to make the most perfect pontoon boat.
I slammed a barbecue on it with 2 454 outboard engines and got me a Wilson Volleyball!
Thanks for watching!
I believe you boat was bent n the bulkhead are miss alignment on each sides.....Lagoons have the same issues
We have not seen any indication of a bulkhead issue. The Leopard 45 has been produced since 2016 and none of the owners have reported a bulkhead issue.
It’s quite simple really .. it’s called Quality Control (QC), and every manufacturer, from cellphones to cars to boats, is responsible for the utmost commitment of QC to ensure every customer receives a product wholly tested, irrespective of market conditions...your reputation depends on it.
Thanks for your comment. We love our boat and wouldn't trade it for another.
That didn’t answer the issue QC when buying a brand new, hand made boat, with a commitment to providing a catamaran completely checked over. Stunned that you accept the numerous quality issues for a brand new boat. Would one expect the same issues of buying a Rolls Royce, much cheaper than buying a Leopard 45? And you’re not the first to highlight many QC issues with Leopard. I’m now of the opinion that until Leopard sorts it’s QC, I’m looking elsewhere. Sad, because I was set on buying a new 45.
I've seen a bunch of these new boat videos recently, and other boat repair videos, and the Q.A. on these boats just suck. They're especially bad with Leopard, it's clear, and may be concentrated on these semi-custom catamaran condos, but failing new engines, software that doesn't work, design mistakes, and even motoring speed being nowhere near advertised, are all unacceptable.
Did Catalina, Beneteau, Nauticat, Choy Lee, etc., have these kinds of issues with their production monohulls?
How did the boat get to you from the manufacturer in South Africa? Surely most of these problems should have been found and rectified on the delivery voyage?
Our catamaran was loaded onto a transport ship in South Africa. Therefore, her only voyage before we took possession was from the transport ship to the dealer.
@@LabMariner Ah, OK, thanks. I know Robertson & Caine sometimes sail charter boats to Thailand and the Mediterranean as part of their shake-down. I have an old Robertson monohull (built 1991) and have found a couple of manufacturing defects since buying her a year ago.
No need for screws, upholstery staples work.
Good suggestion - probably much quicker and easier.
Wow makes me think Leopard needs to beef up their QC . Those issues are unacceptable
Thanks for watching. We are very happy with our Leopard 45 after almost 3 years and wouldn't trade it for another.
im a contactor. I learned in my first year that it is at least three times more expensive to remedy a problem after completion than to just do it right the first time. that is of course if you plan on making it right for the customer. these cat companies that are sending fix kits or instruction emails will not change because they are not being held truly accountable. I am apt to think I would pay more for a one year old boat debugged than a brand new one.
Thank you for watching and for your insightful comment.
Nice one.
So glad you enjoyed it!
if i'm paying a million dollars for a hand made boat then yes I do expect someone to be able to install an auto pilot correctly first time
Thanks for watching!
Lots of the issues you describe seem to be linked to poor quality control and in some cases design faults . It never ceases to amaze me that boaters who are spending huge amounts of money just seem to accept that design flaws and/or poor workmanship are just the way it is .I think that the guy from Sailing Zatara had it right in his video on the subject ,these issues should be down to the guy that sells you the new boat not the buyer. Even if the manufacturer stands behind his product and pays for the repairs/replacement of parts which is debatable,the aggravation and more so the time lost waiting for repairs and warranty work seems unacceptable to me in this day and age .
After 3 years, we still love our boat and wouldn't trade it for another. But, with at least a 2 year wait for a new boat and with owners pressuring manufacturers to get their boat finished as soon as possible, having a few problems to work out with a new boat seems the new normal.
@@LabMariner Wow really? accepting poor quality on a very expensive product is the new norm? What you describe is far from a few problems. Even larger issues are coming to light with Leopards.
I think you were too kind at the beginning saying that you weren't critisising the manufacturers. Leopard are a well known boat builder and, at least I thought, have a good reputation. So many issues, so much to do as an owner, WTF. Delivering a boat with such fundamental problems and bad-build issues is disgraceful, especially for so much money!!!
Thanks for watching! We're happy with our boat and after 2 years wouldn't trade her in for another. As we stated in the video, this appears to be an industry wide issue and not specific to any particular manufacturer.
Just be glad you didn't buy a Lagoon.
Interestingly, we were deciding between buying a used Lagoon 450 and a new Leopard 45. We decided to wait the two years so we could get a new boat. Even with the initial problems, we've been very happy with our Leopard 45 and definitely learned a lot about our boat.
I'm not an expert, however I have built two homes with very expert persons and the fact is I follow also builders of Cats, one issue I feel is not mentioned is that in the assembly of these vessels in the production lines is that they may not be accurately leveling the vessel or that the hulk heads once fully loaded and the placed on the water flex and there goes any true angle, so with that load and flex you get cracked windows and doors that do not fit flush perhaps do not close and so much more and this is a worry as that flex sets in! I feel all manufacturers now are pumping out these crafts without taking into effect the flex, there is not so much flex that your vessel is unsafe although that massive cockpit sliding door is a massive worry! One solution is to build in their marina and cover slip to lower in the mold into actual water and assemble, the more wieght that is placed on the hull the more flex and that is structural!
We have not heard of other Leopard 45s having a cracked window at delivery. Also, we have neither heard of other boats in the Leopard line having bulk head issues or flexing problems nor have we experienced any problems since delivery. After 3 years, we we've concluded that the window and door problems were quality control issues rather than a structural issues. With the demand for new catamarans being so high and the number of suppliers being so low, it is not surprising that buyers (of all brands of catamarans) are experiencing some quality control issues.
Leopard 45s are known for their problems now and there should be a class action lawsuit against the manufacturer.
Thanks for watching!
Leopards, all of them are pretty bad - but all production boats have these issues. They are cheap for a reason.
“A boat is a hole in the water you throw money into.”
“The two happiest days in a sailor’s life are the day he buys a boat and the day he sells it.”
Very true! A boat means always having to fix something - even if it's a brand new boat😀!
But why are their show boats working flawlessly ? They know what they are doing. Previous owners letting them get away with it has created this.
11:08 Maybe buy a few car windshield repair kits off Amazon in the meantime. You may like the repair so much to ignore replacing
Thanks for the suggestion.
oh how i hate those ceiling panels
Yes. A lot of the owners complained about them in the older models. I've seen a new model and it looks like the manufacturer is using screws to attach the panels - so no more falling down😀.