CINE EI explained EASY
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
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Let's talk about CINE EI and why you should know it.
I'll try to explain it as simple as possible so that you can understand it quickly and easily.
Have fun learning!
- Max
#cineei #sonyfx6 #sonyfx3 #sonyfx30 #cinematography
00:00 Intro
00:07 Why this video?
00:17 ISO vs EI
00:40 CINE EI basics
01:16 My goal!
01:30 CINE EI workflow
02:04 Noise comparison
02:19 High EI
02:34 Shooting environments
02:52 Conclusion
03:06 Outro
This is BY FAR the best explanation I've seen. I'm a visual learner so this was explained perfectly. Subscribed!
Thank you! Nice to hear!
Seriously though. This was the best way to explain it simply. Well done, Max.
Man, by FAR, the “cleanest” explanation of Cine EI so far. Thank you!!!
Thanks buddy!
probably spent days looking for most concise and easy to understand explanation of cine ai and use. this by far is the easiest to understand and it is only 3mins long!
Thanks man!
Dude thank you so much for this video! Like Cine EI actually makes sense now haha! I'm surprised you only have 895 subscribers because your videos are just so well made! Keep it up!
hahah thank you! I just moved into a new home, now more videos are coming! 🥳
I’m doing a breakdown of the Sony FX9 for my job and this is by far the best explanation I’ve come across. Brilliant
Thanks buddy! Happy to hear it!
absolutely crushed this explanition in 3 minutes, granted i watched 2 other videos and this one 3 times lol but the side by side comparison really gave context + the shooting comparison brought it home. Thank you.
😎👍 thanks!
Thanks! This is the clearest explanation I've heard so far.
Thanks! Glad you like it.
Subscribe for more! 🤙
Great video man, congrats on the 1000 subs!
Thank you buddy! 🤝😎
I appreciate this so much, even still I struggle to understand fully but you definitely brought me closer. I'll take som test shots with the information you provided. Thanks
Great explanation!
Although it took you a long time to make the video as you said, I think it was totally worth it from the viewer’s perspective. 🎬🎥😎
Also, it looks you’ve achieved your goal of getting 1K subscribers. Congrats!
Keep up the good work.
Glad it was helpful!
Yeah! next goal is 5k, but its not about the numbers, only for my personal motivation! 😁
I switched from a Canon C300 to a Sony Fx9 last year, your explanation helps a lot! Much thanks!
glad u like it!
Can you please bless us with a video on the proper Zebra settings for the FX6 and best practices for using auto variable ND. The way you teach is so clear and to the point. Much appreciated.
Actually a great idea! give some time, ill make one!
This is probably the most succinct explanation of CineEI which I thankfully was able to give over to my director lol.
hahah thank you! 😄
the best explanation on the web about CINE EI
Thanks buddy! ✌️
i love you man!!! the best video about cine ie
Thanks bro! 🫶
I finally understand what Cine EI is and how to use it properly, thx to THIS video.
Yeah! 🤟😎
So nicely explained. Thanks buddy!
I get the general concept, but for me, the video I shoot is not for paid work so I just stick to Flexible ISO. It just makes more sense to me to adjust the ISO in-camera as I shoot. If I lose a stop or two of dynamic range in the process, it's really not a big deal. Great explanation!
Hi buddy! You're right! its enough for 90% of all kind of content...
If you only knew what I've seen even on expensive movie sets... 😂
@@maxsautner I believe it was the James Bond movie Skyfall where the DoP, Roger Deakins, became angry when he learned that the 2nd unit had simply raised the EI to 2000 to adjust their exposure (perhaps for high speed)
Great explanation. Looking forward to more vids from you 🎬🎬
Thank you buddy!
Hello friend, I'm Brazilian and you made me understand Cine IE very well and the exposure index, congratulations on the channel
Happy to hear that!
I'm not even a sony user and i enjoyed and understood it very well! Subscribed! I hope i can shoot in log someday
thank you!
Congrats on over 1k subs 🎉😊
Thank you!! 😁
And NOW I understand it. Thank you! You earned a sub
happy for you buddy! Thx for the sub!
Thank you!!! This was very helpful!
You're welcome buddy!
Thanks for the clear explanation, I finally understand it :)
Amazing to hear! See u in the next one!
Thanks for the vid man! Straightforward thank lawd
glad u liked it!
Well done. Beautifully explained.
Many thanks!
Hi max, great explanation keep going, wishing you the best for all the sucess , God bless you from india
thank you man!
Thanks dude! This video really explained it well.
Glad it helped!
great explanation! this cleared things up so much for me!
Glad it was helpful!
YES!! THANK YOU!!! I FINALLY GET IT!!
You're welcome buddy!
Wonderful job making a 3 minute version of this topic. The frequent push in zoom out movement on clips is distracting in my opinion, but you do you.
Awsome trick
Thanks man🙏🏼
Thank you!
best explanation, thx max
Glad it was helpful! 🫡
Du hast es perfekt erklärt, bravo!
Danke!
Thank you very much. Just challenged myself to learn to shoot slog3 and everyone's explanation is just adding a LUT -_- Would like to see a video about grading and maybe a voiceover of you using cine ei on a client's job.
that's a great idea!
I´ll plan that one! stay tuned!
mate big question, i just got my fx6. I want to view the footage I'm shooting through some kind of LUT on-location so it looks "done" while I'm filming, however I want it recorded in S-Log so I can grade it to look *done* myself. Is this possible using the monitor that comes with the camera? Or do I require an additional external monitor? I feel a bit stumped with this, but shooting and seeing SLOG is so dull and boring on location. Help!
👏👏👏🎬👍
😎🙏
Amazing 👍
Thank you!
so it's like overexposing your footage normally in situations where you don't have highlights you want to protect so that your shadows are cleaner. only difference is with cine exposure index you get to preview the shot correctly instead of it being overexposed :))
yep, exactly
You video look amazing what settings you used?
Thanks for this vid!
Nevertheless, there's still something I'm struggling with.
What is the difference with using flexible ISO, set it to native, intentionally overexpose your footage as generally recommended when shooting in SLOG?
The only difference I understand is that in the end, I can see the "final" result on the screen when using EI, instead of having overexposed image ...
That's right. Image quality is the same. Only thing is that with EI the post processing (turn down exposure) is safe in the metadata of the clip file and with some programs automatically adjusted
Yep! that's right. Just a more pleasant and save workflow 🤷🏻♂️
It was the "cleanest" explenation, but I still don't understand. So changing the exposure index is only to preview on your monitor?? It still only records in the base ISOs. Did I understand correctly?
EDIT*** I think I understand. Like I mentioned above... and in the video example it says - for filming highlights shoot at the base IOS EI, to get the most details, do not over expose. For shadows, bring down the EI to have more detail in the shadows (results in over exposing the shot, to correct in post)?
Did I get it now? lol
Yes! U got it! 👊😎
Just overexposing for more shadow information in order to kill the noise, but still have a normal preview on the monitor..
When you say monitor, do you mean external monitor, or does your LCD screen count? I'm using the FX3, and I don't have that histogram on the bottom right you are using for exposure. Is this available only through an external monitor?
uhh, good question, as far, as I know, you can decide, if the cam gives you the clean feed or with the internal lut. (But not sure..)
Thanks a lot this was so helpful and clear. Any hints on how correctly expose to start with? Grey card with zebra at 41%? Thank you!
EDIT: I watched your other video - Zebra 41% with Grey Card is the answer!
Hahaha I just searched the link to my other one, and saw your edited comment. 🤟😁
But yeah, 41 is right buddy
Danke! 'schöne Tischlerwerkstatt btw!
The Cine EI approach is pretty similar to the RED raw workflow it seems. interesting
I'll make some RED vids very soon! just got a sponsor for red cameras! super excited about!
How the low light concept works for cine Ei for Fx3 where we Dont have zebra lines on the waveform?
Sony FX3 has zebras, u have to set them up properly and turn on.
I programmed my zebras to a custom button to switch them on & off
DANKE. QU: on a sunny day outside just 100 iso or cine log...?
Very useful information I just thought ei was a gimmick but it actually looks like a really important tool
Oh yeah! it is! but try at home first, bevor on a client job! 🤓
Great video, how did you do the zoom effect? Looks great
Thank you!
I made the zoom in & out on a adjustment layer so I can always copy and reuse them.
I“ll make a video about my workflow soon! Stay tuned!
@@maxsautner Looking forward to the next one!
so if im on a low light scene i shoud put the Cine EI on 800 and not on 12800? I thought i needed the higher EI in low light situations because of the missing light in the shadows. I also dont get it when u say we need to lower EI for better shadows, EI is always locked in 800 or 12800 right?
No, ISO ist the sensitivity and CINE EI is a way to expose the image.
When you're in CINE EI mode, you can switch between 800 and 12800 ISO, to make the image brighter.
CINE EI is an exposure option.
I have produced another example video here: czcams.com/video/ol5Kq8_8_1s/video.htmlsi=D0jiywyi10CF45_z
Hello, when you are in flexible ISO mode on the FX3 and you use the dial to set it to 12,000 ISO, does it automatically switch to high ISO, or are you still in low ISO at 12,000? nice Video :P
Hi man! Flexible ISO is FLEXIBLE iso 😁 that means, you can switch flexible between the values. in cine ei u can only switch between 800 and 12800 iso.
Flexible ISO is not EI mode , its just like normal baking in a higher / lower ISO .. EI is not ISO , this is one of the main points EI is exposure index , its been around for years in film as this is how you would set you light metre , from what the manufacturer recommended on the can. And then set your meter to higher or lower EI if you wanted to under / over expose the film . But flexible ISO still has the two base ISO levels for the gamma curve you are using as per Sonys recommendation anyway . S cinetone dual ISO is not the same Slog. And also changes between different Sony cameras .
Subcribed
thank you!
for sony fx3, before CINE EI firmware update, base iso slog3 used to be 640 and 12.800. i am NOT using cine ei mode, but i see now everyone saying base iso is 800 and 12.800. has this changed with the update? or i still need to be at 640 if i dont use the cine ei for the low base iso ? thanks
FX3 native iso ist 800 & 12.800, try to use only those two, to get the lowest noise and most dynamic range of the sensor.
Keep going
🫶
I have many times wondered why I would like to see on the screen, "how the scene will look when the exposure has been downcreased in the edit".
Maybe it's nice but does it make sense? I think it's only dangerous because it misleads how far the highlights are from burning. So, when I adjust the exposure, I definitely want to see with my eyes whether the exposure is too high or how much I have overexposed. And when I use the zebra feature, that EI lowering lower than ISO is sabotaging that Zebra.
no not really... but I have a lot of requests... I´ll make a video with an example setup and editing it afterwards.
subscribe and give me some weeks!
So it is basicly shooting 2 stop over exposed to feed the shadows with light and than reducing it 2 stops in post so you have the cleanest shadows right?
(and doing this on the base iso so that camera has the cleanest image it can capture.)
Yep! Exactly
200EI Helps expose 2 stops over use
If you use Catalyst Browse the CineEI values are retained in the metadata. For example, CINE EI Values (eg, 800 base, 200EI applied) will automatically be applied in Catalyst Browse to your footage. This, unfortunately, is not yet supported in Resolve.
Yeah, sadly...
this would also help a lot of editors, cause they are also "colorists" most of the time...
and u often see overexposed or not correctly normalised footage..
I’m not sure what you mean. When I open Resolve, the EI values are retained/shown. I have to go to “Camera Raw” and choose “Decode Clip>Sony default to return the Exposure to the base ISO setting.
Never knew about this topic but would like to know more. Exposure related content is always interesting.
Hybrid shooter. Currently shooting on an A1 with 80% of my time doing stills.
Regardless. Enjoying your content and style.
Thank you! See you in the next one!
Is there a possibility that the image I see after adjusting the EI has no overexposed spots but the footage I record has? Hope you get the question :) But your explanation really helped!
Hey!
Yes! the footage looks normal exposed in the monitor but recorded overexposed on purpose.
@@maxsautner Yes I get that, but is there a possibility thaI record them clipped highlights but they were still visible on the monitor during the shoot?
@@JimibobThun yes. If you lower your EI, you could potentially be clipping highlights but it’s hard to tell on the monitor.
Comparing CINE EI vs Cinetone on the fx6 for a quick turnaround edit and trying to match with a Ronin 4D what would you suggest?
You mean the Slog vs s-Cinetone?
S-Cinetone is a picture profile, and CINE EI is a way to expose S-Log3...
We went with Slog and Rec 709 and they matched up beautifully.@@maxsautner
great
Ah i think i finally got it, make it look darker in preview, then compensate with actually adding more light (turn down nd etc) for it to look correct in the preview, which makes THE FILE/VIDEO overexposed and then turn down exposure in post?
Right! Now DaVinci does it automatically, which makes the workflow and editing much easier!
Can you tell me if this is correct? You only have 2 Base ISOs that you can choose from in Cine EI. When changing the EI values in your camera you're not actually changing anything with the exposure of your real image file... it only changes how you see the image in your monitor. The reason to adjust your EI values are only for you to see how to adjust the exposure through lighting, ND, or Aperture, So if you want clean shadows you lower your EI value. This darkens the scene in your monitor and you realize you need to bring in more lights for your subject to be properly exposed because everything has gotten darker. Then when you bring this footage into your grading software all looks overexposed. But you'll just bring down the exposure to correctly expose your subject and your shadows will be clean! Is this correct?
EI stands for Exposure Index, should've say it in the beginning.
Didn't think of that, thought it was logical...
is cine ei only for monitors then ? if not can i have an example with just the camera
Since I got a TON of similar requests, I'll make a live example while shooting and editing it afterwards. Stay tuned!
Which EI do you place yours at in more shadows
In darker shots I go 2 stops down = EI 200
I've seen a number of videos where the monitor our VF output gets darker when Cine EI is adjust lower, but I never see that happen with my FX9. It never changes brightness or darkness in the display of VF. What am I doing wrong?
You have to have a MLUT (Monitor LUT applied to your EVF ) usually this would be s709 or the older 709 (800) MLUT .. then the image will be darker , if you lower the EI value . eg 800 to 400 (1 stop) you see this and then open up your iris / apply more light etc , to make the image properly exposed . You are burning in an exposure off set intentionally and uniformly , in this case over exposing by 1 stop , without having to have a one stop over exposed image in your EVF ,as you would just be over exposing 1 stop. It's like how you would use a light metre and film . Film can says 800IE on the label , you set your meter to 400EI because you like to over expose it 1 stop for this scene / shot. Sony have adopted this same work flow with their version of EI mode.
Yep, u have to turn on the MLUT on your monitor
ill need to watch this a few times, I feel I still dont get it lol. Luckily my zv-e1 does not have Cine EI but I would be just the type of nerd to use it
But if i dont use cine ei but expose in slog 3 4k 60 fps for example and 800 iso, is the same?
Get a light meter bro use exposure compensation at +2 and use the EI value as the iso in your meter
This is my 6th video on this and I think I got it from your video. So basically the EI is like a false way of showing you what your image would look like if you were using that iso. So re exposing it to what it shows in the viewfinder correctly will give you the exposure result you saw in view finder…I think lol I’ll watch again
Exactly, you change the monitor brightness only > image appears too dark > you correct it with exposure.
And in the monitor, you see how it'll look later after pulling down the intentionally overexposed footage.
Actually very very simple, but this topic is hard to explain in a "simple" way..
But I´m glad, that u got it! 😎
@@maxsautner yea I think what people struggle with is, why is this important? like people get what's happening but they aren't sure why it needs to be used. Thanks though keep up the good work sub from me
a better way to think about it is cine ei are just LUTS. They are labeled dumb. so you have to remember which one is better if you have a lot of highlights and which is better if you have a lot of shadows. i think?
i only have a sony a7iv so cant shoot cine ei yet. but i feel like its no different than me having multiple luts in my monitor and i use the 2+ stops lut if there are a lot of shadows and the 0+ if there are a lot of highlights. And dont change the iso away from the base iso's.
You’re looking at it backwards. It can sort of “force” you into a different exposure, but fundamentally it’s a “look” tool. If you don’t expose within the bounds of the sensor’s base ISO, EI can’t recover the far ends of the exposure.
I found it the easiest way to understand
Still dont understand? Isn’t this the same as just expose 1.7+ in normal mode to retain clean shadows? Thanks
Why don't they just put waveforms in the camera so you can accurately gauge the shadow levels? (or false color, or zebra's that go below the middle gray point?)
what do u mean? in the lower right corner is the waveform monitor...
Love ut
🫶
So to break it down even simpler. It’s ALWAYS going to record in the two base ISOs, but you adjust the EI value so it looks good in the monitor? So you know what it looks like when you adjust the footage in post?? Lol Cine EI mode confuses me. I
Yes, exactly.
It always records in the chosen native ISO, but the monitor shows you the final image after post.
Just try it @ home, once u have done it, its funny how simple it is...
im starting with the FX6, and idk what i did... but my image (in the camera's monitor) looks the same no matter what EI i use. :(
hm, strange...
Does the EI value change when you flip the switch?
Same here...
or if you're seeing a lot of noise in your shadows color grade correctly
😂 yyyyyeah...
i don´t get it at all. layman as i am. i always thought, you use low iso for shots with lots of highlights burning out, and higher iso in low light situations. am i fundamentally wrong here? here the recommendation is to use low iso in low light. why? cause it forces you to open up iris? to get more info in shadows? but what if i don´t want to open up iris?
Moin max 🙃 das heißt also ich kann die Helligkeit auch über die blende steuern 🤔 weil ein andere CZcamsr hat gesagt.. Es gibt nur die möglich über Licht oder nd Filter..
Genau, du stellst ISO zwischen 800 und 12800 ein, Shutter bleibt auf 180 grad oder das doppelte deiner framerate, dann bleibt dir noch die Blende, ND und dein Licht setup zum belichten.
Viel Erfolg! 🤙
Video number 127, and still don’t get it. Or see the point
Good video...maybe not so many digital zooms in and out. Gets a little annoying.
So basically, the highest EI value we can go to is 12,800 and the lowest is 200 EI?
Hi buddy, my settings are set to this:
ISO 800 - High 800 (no overexposure), Mid 400 (1 stop overexposure), Low 200 (2 stops overexposure)
ISO 12,800 - High 12,800 (no overexposure), Mid 6,400 (1 stop overexposure), Low 3,200 (2 stops overexposure)
But why oh why no one in these tutorials can explain what these number values means??
Hey buddy! which numbers exactly?
Bist du n deutscher? 😊
Genauer gesagt gleich nebenan, wenn du aus Fürth kommst! 😎🤙
@@maxsautner hab früher bei cadolzburg und Schwabach gewohnt, aber mittlerweile bin ich in marktredwitz
@@MIMCKMedia Ja geil!
Wenn ich ein Auto zum filmen brauch, meld ich mich bei dir! 😁
I don't get it
watch over again and build a test setup and try step by step!
It's easier than u think.
How about you guys just get a light meter and be done with it.
Use exposure compensation in light meter to over expose your image by +2 or +3 stops over and plug the Cine EI iso in your meter not your cameras iso from 800 EI down to 200 EI all while leaving your cameras iso on the base iso then boom 💥 no more scramming CZcams to figure it out. To justify it skin tones sit at +3stops 49+/-9 when you expose middle grey at 2 stops over hint hint once this is achieved you will see less noise in your image lower EI values like 200EI Helps you over expose by 2 Stops 200EI is 2 stops 400EI is 1 stop and 800 is 0.0 1600EI is -1 stop 3200EI is -2 stops higher EI values introduces noise because your image is already brighter to start off causing you to under expose darker EI like 200 cause you to ETTR effectively instead of guessing with your meter which is off by one stop in your camera by going in your cameras exposure compensation setting scroll to +1 4/6 and your meter with ready properly. They dnt wanna tell you the sauce 100% cause they eat off of you watching they’re videos and cause it’s all business but I’ve done my research and test this info I just shared will work 100% and get rid of the Cine EI confusion.
It still makes NO sense!! All the Cine-EI sample videos are always indoors, how does it function in full sunlight?
Cine EI is a function for controlled overexposure, to prevent noise in low lit environments.
Outdoors, you normally let the ISO and the CINE EI at the same value (800), to remain most dynamic range.
@dragonflymediageraldton5655 In sunlight you can do the opposite: due to the excess of light, you can, this time, control underexposure to increase tonal range in midlights and highlights. Set your Exposer-Index, say, to 2 stops underexpose for monitoring (e.g. resulting in 3200 ISO for a native ISO of 800). In order to get your exposure right (middle grey at 41% or whatever) in this condition (3200 ISO monitoring), you will have to let less light get in, so you will add 2 stops of ND or go from 360º shutter speed to 45º (remember that you are only changing ISO for monitoring: the camera is always recording in native ISO (e.g. 800) when you record raw or in EI mode for log).
The effect of adding 2 stops of ND (or go from 360º shutter speed to 45º) is that you effectively get less light reach the sensor. You did this knowing that in post you will raise the exposure (roughly the equivalent from native 800 to 3200), so you will get proper exposure in post but with the benefit of having lowered your mid grey point during camera recording, which means that your scene has more stops of dynamic range above the mid grey than if you didn't do that. In a high key scene this is desirable because there is more information in the section above mid grey and that means you capture a better range of details there (mid lights and highlights).
In this video Tyler Edwards explains how he uses this technique in full sunlight. You can clearly see the effect on the highlights in the t-shirt scene.
czcams.com/video/Exl5d1tiNeA/video.html
Auf Deutsch wäre geiler 😅
Wäre einfacher, aber ich möchte mich nicht nur auf den D-A-CH Raum limitieren. 🤓
Nein wäre es nicht. Mach weiter so. 😉
For me Cine EI is still a total non sense. What if you are using normal mode where you choose wit your base ISOs? It is the same thing, but you need a lot more freedom. I never use it. And the same can be said for Slog 3 on my FS7 and FS5. You have 3 options for WB, that's super stupid. Yes, if you control the lighting no problem but otherwise is super limited. Why the heck people buy Sekonc 800 ? With those cameras it is obsolete.
I have made a second video about cine ei in a real example, maybe this helps u better: czcams.com/video/ol5Kq8_8_1s/video.html
@@maxsautner Thanks for the video! The problem is that I know all that and I never use it, because it limits me a lot. I have FS7 and FS5 MK2 and I am familiar with this crap. Thats why now I switch to Panasonic s5IIx/
why go through all this cine ei confusion. if you are in a low light situation, overexpose for one or two stops. then pull it down in post. if you don´t want to touch lens, go into higher iso or less nd or more light.... the normal way to do it. cine ei just tricks you into not seeing the overexposure on your monitor which sounds to me like a straight way into disaster. why does sony always overcomplicat the most basic operations in camerawork. the menu in itself is a complete insanity.