Great video! It's really nice to see a professional hpde instructor making these kind of videos. I do a lot of track days myself and am glad you put a large emphasis on proper seating and hand position as well as smooth inputs to not upset the car. Mainly was watching this to figure out your rolling technique as the pedals are spaced a lot further in the Honda than they are in my M3, where I can roll the outside of my foot while keeping pressure on the brake with my big toe.
Good clear video. I recommend to friends trying to learn to heel-toe to practice just rev matching at all first. Just good to get a feel with no brake involved. Then work into using the brake and blipping the throttle simultaneously. Good way to safely work into it.
I bang the gears in my 95 GSR it loves it , it has alot more mechanical feel to it but in my 2013 si sedan it doesn't really even feel like a manual more like an automatic that requires you to press the clutch and select your gear... It hates being shifted fast it feels faster if you take it easy and be kind ... Takes kind of getting used to but pays off , feels much more sophisticated. I do notice that annoying rev hang though , its like the ugly cousin of the rev match in the 370z..
ummm...in my civic the gas pedal is considerably further down than the brake pedal, so its kind of hard to try and do heel toe in general, anyone got any ideas how to bring them onto the same level? its a 6th gen civic ek4 hatch
It's best to think of "heeling and toeing," as one coordinated action. It's not really step 1. ok, heel and toe, ok step 3., etc... Pushing the clutch in is part of it, but it should be one coordinated action, and since the goal is to slow down in and get the car under control, you'd never want to hit the gas pedal with it still in gear, so I suppose you could think of depressing the clutch as the first step, but as I said, it should really be one smooth, coordinated, action. When the clutch is depressed it separates the engine and transmission by physically pulling the clutch disc off of the flywheel. So while the clutch is in, just like the motor, the transmission is slowing down. If you didn't keep the clutch depressed the entire time you'd probably be trying to do what is called "double clutching." When you double clutch you depress the clutch to get it out of gear, then when it's in neutral you let the clutch out and rev the motor. This both raises the RPMs for the downshift and spins the transmission fast so it too will be spinning faster for the downshift. You then push the clutch back in, but the car in gear, usually rev it again to raise the engine RPMs, and let the clutch out. This really isn't necessary in modern synchro transmissions. So, to just downshift and rev match you have to have the clutch depressed the entire time, unless you're going through multiple gears as you downshift.
any pointers here? i can rev match while downshifting just fine that isn't the problem, i have a 8th gen Si, and the pedal is mounted to the floor, (cant tell if your 9th is), but when i go to blip the throttle while braking i tend to push the brake in further while trying to blip the throttle, like braking pretty hard every time i try to blip, so i end up looking like a idiot lurching forward every time i blip, is it pretty much just your toes on the brake? anyone ever experience this problem?
Firstly, everyone is probably going to do this slightly differently based on the size and shape of your feet. For instance the most annoying car I've ever had to do this in as a Lotus Elise and some people love it. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by lurching forward. The only way that the car can lurch forward is if when you're pressing the gas pedal you're in gear and that clutch pedal is out. At that point there's no point in blipping the throttle at all. If you mean that the nose dives a bit because you're braking harder, honestly that's pretty normal. As I said in the video, this is a racing maneuver and isn't necessarily practical to do on public roads all the time. It is also meant to be done under hard braking, so generally when you're doing this you are literally braking as hard as possible in a braking zone. So, this is probably a combination of maybe the pedal configuration and the actual procedure itself. Some cars are very hard to heel and toe in, such as early Porsche 911s, wings engineering or Rennline pedals are almost a requirement to heel and toe in those cars. Most modern Japanese cars are pretty easy to do it in, however.
RandoRando yes what he's saying is correct and he also mentioned in the video that this is done at the threshold so in an ideal situation you wouldn't be pushing the brake down any further. If you are practicing this on public roads like I had to do, your best bet is to either try it on exit ramps where you can actually afford to brake harder. I had the problem with pushing the brake too much when I first started. Something like that could be solved simply by wearing a different pair of shoes. I can heel-toe better in my flip flops because they're wider but I prefer not to since they lack stability.
how do you feel about the lag in throttle? I don't know if I just suck or if i'm actually having a difficult time timing the rev match due to lag... I used to drive an em1 before upgrading to the 9th gen.. BUT AWESOME VIDEO THOUGH, good tutorial for beginners! I definitely took a while to learn this. I still double clutch, I just got used to it.
I really don't notice any issues with heeling and toeing in the 9th gen civics, but it's also something I do all the time. A lot of people have complained about "rev hanging," as an issue. To be honest, from what I've noticed the "rev hang" only occurs when your foot is still on the gas shifting, it's doesn't really strike me as an ECM issue or a problem, especially for heeling and toeing. Let's assume for moment I'm crazy and "rev hang" is real. If your RPMs just don't drop when you shift, unless you would happen to be at redline, there shouldn't be any problem for heeling and toeing. Let's say you get on the brakes and go to heel and toe downshift, let's say you get the clutch in at 5500 RPMs... well, if it hangs there, if you're fast enough, you may only need to blip the throttle enough to raise it 500RPMs or 1000RPMs, maybe originally it needed to be 2000RPMs. So it wouldn't really change the mechanics of the maneuver, it might just effect how you end up pushing the gas pedal. As for any lag in throttle response because it's an electronic throttle, I defintiely have not noticed any of that at all driving the car. If anything, it's a very strong, very quick to rev motor. Admittedly the traction/stability control is one of the most invasive I've ever seen, but it shouldn't come into play on something like this.
coming from a car thats automatic.. and not having to much knowledge on driving manual, do you think that driving manual on this si, (not pushing it) is easy to learn?
Yes, I really wouldn't worry too much at all. Honestly the clutch pedal itself is pretty light it doesn't take a lot of effort to control the release, they're pretty much the standard pedals on every Japanese car made today. The only part that is slightly hard is going through the gears just because it's such a close ratio gearbox. In fact, much like the RX-8 they're annoying and pointlessly close. You can be in 4th gear at 30mph and you're fine. In most Porsches I think that might actually kill the motor, lol. It makes enough torque you're not lugging the motor and it drives fine. Honestly 4th is probably the most useful gear. If only they'd made 6th longer it'd probably get 5-10 more mpg. Just remember, go slow and be smooth, let the idiots behind you honk or go around, who cares? Just relax and be smooth. The only thing you really need to be careful about is putting it in gear. As long as you have the clutch fully depressed you can't grind gears or hurt anything. And above all else, stalling from a stop won't really hurt anything, so if in doubt just hit the brakes and stop the car, don't worry about stalling it or not having your feet in the right place, etc. Stop the car.
Just don't rush. One of the best lessons is to learn to get the car moving without using the gas pedal. That way you realize 1. it's possible and 2. there's no need to go crazy trying to dump the clutch and hit the gas at the perfect moment to get moving. Just slowly release the clutch and try to get used to feeling the friction point where the clutch engages, and then slowly letting it out so it will begin rolling without even touching the gas pedal. Once you get used to that, getting moving in first is really easy.
Great video! It's really nice to see a professional hpde instructor making these kind of videos. I do a lot of track days myself and am glad you put a large emphasis on proper seating and hand position as well as smooth inputs to not upset the car. Mainly was watching this to figure out your rolling technique as the pedals are spaced a lot further in the Honda than they are in my M3, where I can roll the outside of my foot while keeping pressure on the brake with my big toe.
Good clear video. I recommend to friends trying to learn to heel-toe to practice just rev matching at all first. Just good to get a feel with no brake involved. Then work into using the brake and blipping the throttle simultaneously. Good way to safely work into it.
I love those downshifts
the hell and toe at 8 minutes are brutal
Very informal thanks for the tips :)
Your a really good driver dude.
wicked video very good
So Sick!
I bang the gears in my 95 GSR it loves it , it has alot more mechanical feel to it but in my 2013 si sedan it doesn't really even feel like a manual more like an automatic that requires you to press the clutch and select your gear... It hates being shifted fast it feels faster if you take it easy and be kind ... Takes kind of getting used to but pays off , feels much more sophisticated. I do notice that annoying rev hang though , its like the ugly cousin of the rev match in the 370z..
ummm...in my civic the gas pedal is considerably further down than the brake pedal, so its kind of hard to try and do heel toe in general, anyone got any ideas how to bring them onto the same level? its a 6th gen civic ek4 hatch
So you go to neutral first than heel and toe? Also are you holding the clutch in the whole time? Good video btw! 👍
It's best to think of "heeling and toeing," as one coordinated action. It's not really step 1. ok, heel and toe, ok step 3., etc... Pushing the clutch in is part of it, but it should be one coordinated action, and since the goal is to slow down in and get the car under control, you'd never want to hit the gas pedal with it still in gear, so I suppose you could think of depressing the clutch as the first step, but as I said, it should really be one smooth, coordinated, action.
When the clutch is depressed it separates the engine and transmission by physically pulling the clutch disc off of the flywheel. So while the clutch is in, just like the motor, the transmission is slowing down. If you didn't keep the clutch depressed the entire time you'd probably be trying to do what is called "double clutching." When you double clutch you depress the clutch to get it out of gear, then when it's in neutral you let the clutch out and rev the motor. This both raises the RPMs for the downshift and spins the transmission fast so it too will be spinning faster for the downshift. You then push the clutch back in, but the car in gear, usually rev it again to raise the engine RPMs, and let the clutch out. This really isn't necessary in modern synchro transmissions. So, to just downshift and rev match you have to have the clutch depressed the entire time, unless you're going through multiple gears as you downshift.
any pointers here? i can rev match while downshifting just fine that isn't the problem, i have a 8th gen Si, and the pedal is mounted to the floor, (cant tell if your 9th is), but when i go to blip the throttle while braking i tend to push the brake in further while trying to blip the throttle, like braking pretty hard every time i try to blip, so i end up looking like a idiot lurching forward every time i blip, is it pretty much just your toes on the brake? anyone ever experience this problem?
Firstly, everyone is probably going to do this slightly differently based on the size and shape of your feet. For instance the most annoying car I've ever had to do this in as a Lotus Elise and some people love it. I'm not 100% sure what you mean by lurching forward. The only way that the car can lurch forward is if when you're pressing the gas pedal you're in gear and that clutch pedal is out. At that point there's no point in blipping the throttle at all. If you mean that the nose dives a bit because you're braking harder, honestly that's pretty normal. As I said in the video, this is a racing maneuver and isn't necessarily practical to do on public roads all the time. It is also meant to be done under hard braking, so generally when you're doing this you are literally braking as hard as possible in a braking zone. So, this is probably a combination of maybe the pedal configuration and the actual procedure itself. Some cars are very hard to heel and toe in, such as early Porsche 911s, wings engineering or Rennline pedals are almost a requirement to heel and toe in those cars. Most modern Japanese cars are pretty easy to do it in, however.
RandoRando yes what he's saying is correct and he also mentioned in the video that this is done at the threshold so in an ideal situation you wouldn't be pushing the brake down any further. If you are practicing this on public roads like I had to do, your best bet is to either try it on exit ramps where you can actually afford to brake harder. I had the problem with pushing the brake too much when I first started. Something like that could be solved simply by wearing a different pair of shoes. I can heel-toe better in my flip flops because they're wider but I prefer not to since they lack stability.
how do you feel about the lag in throttle? I don't know if I just suck or if i'm actually having a difficult time timing the rev match due to lag... I used to drive an em1 before upgrading to the 9th gen..
BUT AWESOME VIDEO THOUGH, good tutorial for beginners! I definitely took a while to learn this. I still double clutch, I just got used to it.
I really don't notice any issues with heeling and toeing in the 9th gen civics, but it's also something I do all the time. A lot of people have complained about "rev hanging," as an issue. To be honest, from what I've noticed the "rev hang" only occurs when your foot is still on the gas shifting, it's doesn't really strike me as an ECM issue or a problem, especially for heeling and toeing. Let's assume for moment I'm crazy and "rev hang" is real. If your RPMs just don't drop when you shift, unless you would happen to be at redline, there shouldn't be any problem for heeling and toeing.
Let's say you get on the brakes and go to heel and toe downshift, let's say you get the clutch in at 5500 RPMs... well, if it hangs there, if you're fast enough, you may only need to blip the throttle enough to raise it 500RPMs or 1000RPMs, maybe originally it needed to be 2000RPMs. So it wouldn't really change the mechanics of the maneuver, it might just effect how you end up pushing the gas pedal.
As for any lag in throttle response because it's an electronic throttle, I defintiely have not noticed any of that at all driving the car. If anything, it's a very strong, very quick to rev motor. Admittedly the traction/stability control is one of the most invasive I've ever seen, but it shouldn't come into play on something like this.
coming from a car thats automatic.. and not having to much knowledge on driving manual, do you think that driving manual on this si, (not pushing it) is easy to learn?
Yes, I really wouldn't worry too much at all. Honestly the clutch pedal itself is pretty light it doesn't take a lot of effort to control the release, they're pretty much the standard pedals on every Japanese car made today. The only part that is slightly hard is going through the gears just because it's such a close ratio gearbox. In fact, much like the RX-8 they're annoying and pointlessly close. You can be in 4th gear at 30mph and you're fine. In most Porsches I think that might actually kill the motor, lol. It makes enough torque you're not lugging the motor and it drives fine. Honestly 4th is probably the most useful gear. If only they'd made 6th longer it'd probably get 5-10 more mpg.
Just remember, go slow and be smooth, let the idiots behind you honk or go around, who cares? Just relax and be smooth. The only thing you really need to be careful about is putting it in gear. As long as you have the clutch fully depressed you can't grind gears or hurt anything. And above all else, stalling from a stop won't really hurt anything, so if in doubt just hit the brakes and stop the car, don't worry about stalling it or not having your feet in the right place, etc. Stop the car.
Just don't rush. One of the best lessons is to learn to get the car moving without using the gas pedal. That way you realize 1. it's possible and 2. there's no need to go crazy trying to dump the clutch and hit the gas at the perfect moment to get moving. Just slowly release the clutch and try to get used to feeling the friction point where the clutch engages, and then slowly letting it out so it will begin rolling without even touching the gas pedal. Once you get used to that, getting moving in first is really easy.
Awesomw