This Commander Card NEEDS to be Banned.
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- čas přidán 10. 05. 2024
- Today's video is a stream highlight from when we discussed Rhystic Study, The effect it has on games, and why I personally believe a ban would only help the format. Not because its too powerful, but because it almost always causes a toxic social environment in games its cast in.
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Players in a game of Magic represent powerful, dueling wizards called Planeswalkers. Each card a player draws from their deck represents a magical spell which can be used to their advantage in battle. Instant and Sorcery cards represent magical spells a player may cast for a one-time effect, while Creature, Artifact, and Enchantment cards remain on the Battlefield to provide long-term advantage. Additionally, players must include resource, or Land cards representing the amount of magic that is available to cast their spells. Typically, a player defeats their opponent(s) by reducing their life totals to zero, which is commonly done via combat damage, or attacking with creatures. Many other sources of damage exist in the game, however, in addition to alternative win-conditions which do not check life totals.
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After reading the comments and seeing the majority of players disagree with me. I’ve reached the conclusion I am in the wrong. It’s not as big a deal as i thought it was.
At the end of the day situations like the one I referenced in the video are just up to the players you play with, and you should just try to have fun.
I won’t delete the video, as I’d rather own up to my mistakes rather than delete them. I will learn from this mistake and apply it to future content 🙇♂️
There will always be "best cards" in any given format. Your opinion is completely valid, and the point you made is valid as well: you're finding fault with optimal play patterns in multiplayer commander, which I mostly agree with, as I hate multiplayer commander, and wish 1 v 1 was the norm (Where ironically, this card becomes bad). But it's more that you need to be aware that this scenario can and will happen in games. When I rarely play EDH, I'm ready for anything and everything, Turn 1 wins, land destruction, players completely punting and letting someone else have the win due to a scenario like this, whatever things you might find "toxic", I'm okay with it. I should have built my deck differently to play around it. The fault is on me, not on anyone else.
@@mulldrifter6040 i assume you're a solo player and join random groups to play then, a lot of commander players like myself have a regular pod that we play in when we go to card shops and sometimes if 1 guy cant make it we pick up a random. Usually if i play with randoms i like to turn 0 ask the pod what power level we are playing at, whether thats budget/low, mid, high, or cedh. i don't usually expect the toxic stuff when we're only in mid power or lower pods and i dont usually see it either. its a good mentality that you have for sure, just not the optimal way to play commander in my opinion. its always more fun with friends.
I think you made very valid points, my only counter argument is that most of my decks are heavy on cost and at the earliest drop something on the board on turn 3-4 after ramping, if I have the mana to play one of those cards I'm just not going to leave my board empty. I fully recognize that I could just run better decks, but I just don't have as much fun with those.
Hey brother. Don't feel bad for giving your opinion. Don't feel bad for expressing your experiences. Even if people don't agree, and you end up agreeing with them, the original thought was valid. If you have changed your mind, then make another video, don't delete this one
If you don't have any kind of removal in a deck your doing something wrong.
Your issue stems more from when you pay the 1 and your opponents don't, which is moreso a qualm you have with mulitplayer magic where your opponents don't "work with you" to avoid one player from winning the game. Understand that multiplayer magic fundamentally flawed to begin with, the game was designed for 1 v 1. Card is a staple, but won't be banned.
Run interaction.
The game was originally designed for a 1v1 format, but that doesn't mean design going forward can't take it into account. "Run interaction" is a braindead solution for the greater issue of these cards that scale to broken degrees when you introduce more than one player. The Teferi that allows you to +1 on opponents' turns makes him almost unbeatable unless someone got lucky enough to draw something that can kill a planeswalker.
I don't really like archenemy. It's a boring game dynamic that removes agency from the game. It's "deal with this one player specifically out of the three others right now or they win and it's going to take literally everyone else to do that." If I only wanted to deal with one player I would play constructed. I'm playing a free-for-all for a reason. It's a free-for-all for a reason, not a 1v3.
How about we just accept that this format has its flaws and may never achieve perfect balance? Play whatever you like, but be ready to discuss it with others who might not agree at the table
the only problem with rhystic study is that a player is allowed to hold onto those cards until THEIR end phase. If a player needed to discard down to 7 every end phase this would fix rhystic being busted and actually make it balanced besides letting players draw and hold onto all their response and pitch spells as well. Most dislikes are people coping with their 30-40 dollar purchase, as someone who uses rhystic all I think that needs to be addressed is the discard rule.
Have you ever heard of removal spells?
Cards don't get banned because they hurt your feelings, (At least, not from card effects, anyway. Old art... eh. Different conversation) they get banned because they can't be countered. Rhystic Study has a ton of counters to it and if you don't want to use them then it's on you.
Maybe I want them to pick up a ton of cards because I've got something that's going to exile their graveyard, or maybe I've set up some conditions that punish card draw.
That's the game, countering strategies.
The biggest problem with rhysic study is smooth brains don't know how to play around it.
That doesn't make it bannable.
Just pay the one, commander players are so greedy cause they are timmys (which is find) but to complain about it after not paying is wild.
Also players just dont get card draw, since its not instantly hurting them they just forget about it.
If paying would mean you can’t cast your 4 drop or two 2 drops then it really sets you back as you pass. Meanwhile the Rhystic Study player is drawing on his turn & doing things… building a better board state or working toward a win con. That’s why a one sided Sphere of Resistance would be broken.
rhystic study should be erratad to allow any player to pay the 1, with the controller getting priority, to make politics even more chaotic.
Soo, the problem is that you backseat other players. And get anoyed when they play the way they want. Guys, golden rule about commander, dont "UN meeting" talk the casual fun out of it.
Get better at magic
How do you feel about smothering tithe, mystic remora, and esper sentinel?
Smothering tithe I find most of the time players just don’t have the ability to pay, but I do believe should try to if possible. Mystic remora can just played up to as “don’t cast non-creatures for a few turns until they don’t pay the upkeep” cause 4 is totally impossible for most decks to pay. Esper sentinel is only one mana once a turn, so I’d say the same rule of thumb for rhystic applys, but none provide an extreme card advantage capable of taking over the game should the table collectively ignore them all.
@@BounceM4NMagic Plus the sentinel is a 1/1 so it's far easier to remove than an enchantment.
Which is worse though, Rhystic Sidi or Mystic Remora? Or between Rhystic Study and Smothering Tithe?
In my personal experience, I'd say Rhystic study generates the most non-games due to the pod ignoring it, people respect the treasures from Smothering Tithe way more compared to the cards from Rhystic Study, and Remora is the worst of the 3, as usually the pod can just not cast noncreatures if they want until they can't pay the cumulative upkeep costs anymore. Don't feed the fish!
@BounceM4NMagic I'm the kind of asshole that uses Power Conduit to remove age counters and negate the Cumulative upkeep costs. But honestly I use Rhystic Study and Price of Progress to slow my opponents down. I'm not stopping them from doing anything, I'm just encouraging them actively to slow down (or suffer the consequences *evil laughter*)
The biggest problem with the card is that YOU are punished for SOMEONE ELSE playing into it incorrectly.
Doesn't matter how much you politic, if some player thinks their mana ramp is worth giving the Rhystic Study player 5 cards then you're just screwed.
The only option you have is to have a counter for it or to blow it up IMMEDIATELY so you can take away the other player's chance to misplay into it. Trading a premium removal/interaction spell for a 3 mana enchantment that "doesn't win the game on it's own" (even though it does often times) doesn't feel good.
tl;dr: Card is busted in multiplayer, feels bad to play against, makes games go longer than they should, gets more broken the more free interaction WotC prints, and should at least be looked at as a possible ban.
Just run enchantment removal you mook
I play it in two decks, never survives more than two rounds, gives me maybe 5 cards, is not broken by any means, smothering thite and dockside extortionist are way worse
Counterpoint:
No, it doesn't.
I put victory chime in my hug deck to help pay the 1 lol
This is based.
Lol it would be a cold day in hell
I just throw in Broken Bond and ramp off of destroying Rhystic Study.
damn i was hoping for a bait and switch takedown of dockside
You do you I guess, interesting to see this emotional response to a troll card
Needs a ban?!?!?!?!
Have you tried paying the 1? Treat it like Thalia and it doesn't draw a single card XD
#skillissue
First time playing Magic?
I pay the one. people should just play more enchantment interaction. If player 1 plays this and I'm player 2 I'm not paying if it effects my plays in the round, otherwise I pay the one.
just dont pay for it. nobody i ever play with does
More arguments. It is from an era 25 years ago before they actively balanced around multiplayer. Also, Ancestral Recall is banned, 1 mana draw 3. Why is it acceptable for 3 mana draw 9 to exist.
Glad I live in an area where this miserable nonsense is house banned. Truly nothing of value is lost.
Bc it can be 3 mana draw nothing ??? Cmon man lol
You are just like every other casual you want to ban a good card that you and other players are to lazy to deal. You just want your deck to do its thing and not be bothered by other players.
This entire video is me wishing other players would actually deal with Rhystic properly, but ok. If you’re going to judge the content of my character based on a single 6 minute video out of like, 5 I’ve ever made, That’s pretty cringe. But you do you.
i don't care either way really, i think it needs to be reprinted into the ground along with all the needlessly expensive cards. abolish the reserve list. said by someone with a reserve list cards.
sheoldred, wedding ring, buyback, zen triplets, mindslaver, i can go on.
the thing is this: if you know your going to be dealing rhystic then start communicating with players.
"im not paying so dont ask. also let me know you got a response before i start searching cause im storming your ass."
"okay cool but if your start being a dick about asking me im going to start sending creatures your way: one way or another you will learn to be decent."
"awesome! now i dont feel bad about running carnival lab rats. and no im not paying."
simple stuff.
Such cry babies, you never lived in the time when Stasis was predominant
I just want Sol Ring banned.
Sounds like you should chill on fueling these weird 10min discussions. You ask one time “we respecting the Rhystic Study?” And that’s the end of it. If you feel this strongly about cards like this sounds like you need to start playing more removal and controlling deck archtypes
I do play removal all the time, and I’m happy during games where me or someone else is able to just avoid the conversation altogether by removing it. The rhystic study conversation is a topic I’ve seen many other channels discuss as well, so I figured it’d be a nice topic to talk about, especially considering a CAG member was the one asking what Rhystic’s problem was.
Sounds like you should be play Lorcana, not Magic.
Sorry its not going to be banned also you are forgetting about other cards like mystic remora , smothering tithe , charismatic conquer , esper Sentinel,
This never should be banned.
Espersentinel (:
I'd rather ban Sol ring, it's way more powerful than rhystic.
Mana Tithe is worse and you cant change my mind
Straight up! 4 mana Omniscience
Oh my God, this type of player is why commander isn't fun to play anymore. Everyone whines and bitches when you do something remotely powerful or fail to play around a card properly.
No card in commander right now "needs" to be banned. If you don't like playing against a card, don't play with people who play that card or learn to play against it. Or better yet, rule 0 it within your own playgroup and run a tight circle of friends who agree to abdie by your decisions as a group. It's a casual format. The fact that it has a banlist in the first place is a little silly to me anyways.
Honestly, people complaining about Rhystic Study are more annoying than the card itself at this point.
Sol ring should be banned, but doesn't need to. I'd rather more unbans than bans.
@mulldrifter6040 If commander was a 1v1 format, sure. But the collective alliance formed by a early game sol ring keeps the card in check. See the famous sol ring Stat video from Command Zone
I'm a firm believer in a no ban list commander format. Everyone is pretty cool with proxies anyways and the social contract prevents everyone from going balls deep competitive anyways
The only card that absolutely needs to be banned in Commander is Yawgmoth's Bargain. Sheoldred the Apocalypse would run decks over if it was legal. And that's it. Unban the rest of the cards you cowards
I play Kami. I want everyone to draw cards. You must be a snowflake against my deck.
Having everyone draw cards is based wym
I remember getting this card, being excited to play it, having exactly what you describe happen, then went 'man, I don't even want to listen to that mess again.'
Agreed
Just pay the F'n 1 and quit whining!
Bad take, if you're casual why does people drawing cards matter and i've you're cedh why aren't you just psying the one.
Yeah it could get banned just like Dockside and Thassa's Oracle but the commander committee barely pays attention to the format they govern.
“X card needs to be banned” is a dumb ass conversation for 99% of cards, including this one. Get over it lol. Here’s some engagement for you
If I ever played Rhystic Study, I would fully expect everyone to focus me out of the table. Which is what I would do if I saw it hit the table. That is my experience of what happens when someone tries to play semi-political cards that are annoying.
Do you agree with my take on Rhystic Study? What are some memorable experiences you've had with the card? What are YOUR opinions on Rhystic Study?
Edit: been noticing a lot of people are simply responding with “play removal” the problem with this argument is lots of people don’t want to spend removal on a card that in theory, shouldn’t have the ability to take over the game should everyone play around it correctly. If you spend removal on rhystic study and then that same player plays a game-ending combo a few turns later, you’re going to feel pretty silly. Not everything can just die to removal. Every deck only has so many slots for removal spells.
Look this is very simple: You guys do not dislike Rhystic Study, what you *really* dislike here is Stax cards and that's the problem: you are assuming the objective of Rhystic Study is card draw when that' is not what it should be used for, it is a stax effect that is used to make sure opponents have to use their resources to get rid of it.
In other words: *it's not supposed to net you a ton of card draw* and two hours of you asking 'do you pay the 1' and it's instead supposed to make you counter it on the spot, use spot removal or a board wipe to get rid of it quickly. On a proper control deck just 4 or 5 extra cards you draw to Rhystic Study should give you enough to either defend it from removal or find a combo piece to win outright.
So my response is that casual commander players have deck construction problems. This is what other people commonly reduce to 'Play more interaction' but the more elaborate question is that you need to have a game plan that takes into account stax effects like Rhystic Study, Mystic Remora or Smothering Tithe because believe it or not *those are the nice ones* if I actually run heavy stax/denial for real you'll have no answer to Dranith Magister, Winter Orb, Grand Abolisher, Ethersworn Canonist, Quicksilver Fountain, Bloodmoon, Armaggedon, etc.
So if you just want commander to be a format where Rhystic Study is banned then the logical conclusion is that you pretty much have to ban hundreds of commander legal cards that can shut down the game in other ways that, while they do not involve direct card draw as a penalty, are way more severe. Deck construction needs to take into account some way to get around Rhystic Study, Cyclonic Rift, etc. Just assume this things will happen on every single table an even on every single game and make sure you have enough ways to either play through them (Be faster, counter on the spot, have removal ready, etc.)
EDIT: I should clarify that by *you* I kind of mean more of the proverbial 'you' directed at most casual commander players though, edited a bit for clarity.
@@dimitriid one of the best responses I’ve seen from this video. Props.
My personal experience is that everyone doesn't really care too much. I never pay the one, but I will swing at him every time he draws off of it.
If I have Lurking Predators out, I will pay the one. But that is only because Lurking Predators doesn't trigger Rhystic
I think Smothering Tithe is more toxic. Pay 2 every card draw or the person makes a treasure! That has more value, in my opinion.
My favorite Rhystic memory was once three people had Rhystic and I had Tithe. All the Rhystic players didn't want to draw or else I would have a ton of mana! So they didn't do much.
@@thatbloxguy5432 I agree that tithe is stronger, but in higher power I feel that extra mana to cast it compared to rhystic tends to sway people from running it (just from my experience, not sure if it’s correct not to run it in cEDH or not)
"If you spend removal on Rhystic Study and then that same player plays a game-ending combo a few turns later."
Wow, great rationalization! I guess I should cut the dozens of removal spells from my decks because I can still lose the game a "few turns" after using a removal spell. Really big brained strategy on display with that one. "No dude, don't use Swords to Plowshares on Elesh Norm. He might combo off at some point in the future."
I really disagree, EDH balance is achieved through rule 0 talk prior to playing and common understanding of how you build decks in your meta. If you play in unknown metas you probably needs a bit of variety on power of you decks to be able to pull out a deck matching the table after said rule 0 talk
Hot takes to get views huh? Hope it works for you. But no, rhystic study is not a problem.
Bro just play notion thief
I do, and it’s fun when it happens🤭
#willneverpaythe1
You're bad
People have to start considering esper sentinel, mystic remora + rhystic study as stax pieces, can you pay the cost? no? don't play your card. Dont "oh but I want to and i don't care if they draw" but then they draw into a good card or get ahead cos you didn't pay the 1. YOU ARE THE CLOWN WHO DIODNT PAY THE 1!
I play casual commander, so if I someone drops a rhystic study, smother tithes, dockside extortionists, fast mana rocks, etc, I just consider them archenemy and team up with other players to take them out. Even if that player didn't have a good deck, that one card gets them knocked out of the game. That's the risk people take by running CEDH cards in casual.
lmao The card doesn't "Cause a toxic social environment" as you so eloquently put it.... It's a piece of cardboard. Imagine being toxic but blaming it on a game piece.... Also calling for more bans in the format that should have little to No bans is moronic. "Waaah i don't like people asking me if i pay the one, so instead of having an adult rule 0 conversation with my play group ill just complain on the internet
just run more removal. easy.
I think this is a pretty unfair statement. I don’t have a problem with paying the 1. I dislike that the conversation rhystic usually causes leads to feel bads when some people decide not to pay the 1 or hell, even when everyone pays the 1 and then the rhystic player draws no cards. This is a topic I’ve seen other channels discuss as well, which is why I felt like throwing my hat in the ring.
Also let’s be fair, rule 0 conversations almost never happen before games.
@@BounceM4NMagic it’s a fair criticism about a card that frequently causes discourse, just like every other ban. my pod disliked me playing it so i took it out. easy fix. you have every right to voice your opinions
@@BounceM4NMagic again thats a YOU problem. Just because YOU don't have rule 0 convos doesn't mean that the rest of the community doesn't. Calling for bans just because you can't police your own playgroup is just lazy. Getting board wiped or overloaded cyclonic rifted feels bad too, so do we ban board wipes too? Sorry but if you can't sit down with your friends and say "Hey i don't like rhystic study, how do you guys feel? Wanna just take it out of our decks and play without them?" then your playgroup is probably already toxic.
No.