Are We SURE Incineroar is BOTTOM TIER!? (ft. WaDi, Coney & ESAM)
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- I think we've all been sleeping on Incineroar. Skyjay, an Incineroar main, has kind of been DOMINATING in tournament with him recently, and his skill has really been putting Incineroar on the table. We had some of our SMASH PROS react to his most recent tournament.
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That spike with d-air after the purposely failed side-b is a thing of beauty.
Oh yeah, that whip bonk is a pretty wild mixup and definitely can send at weird angles off stage.
@@2LettersSho it always sends the same angle. Not a mix-up its just optimal coming from offstage. Clothesline sends across stage/can be teched, and the upwards one obviously wont do shit.
Someone murdered me with that once after I picked Incinaroar and teabagged them repeatedly. I wasn't even mad I was just shocked.
Yep I have tried to do that but can't consistantly do it
I actually landed that combo on my friend once at that is still the best pop off ive ever had that game was CLOSE it was last hit against FALCON but he got careless and tried to 2 frame me but i still had my double jump so i jumped back to dodge his down tilt and then grabbed him with side b and THEN I MURDERED HIM >:D
The beauty of low tiers is that they force you to be good at the game and not just good at your character . . . or they make you cheesy
It's just the dichotomy of a game with both good ass players like skyjay and funny Luigi mains
not a low tier
Sadly my incin is cheesy and bad XD that’s why I watch these sorta things lol. Like this video alone showed me just how poorly I was using my throws.
We’ve seen Skyjay get really far into major tournaments too, I think there’s some serious potential for this character despite their tierlist placements, same idea with other cracked low tier/lower mid tier mains like Bassmage
What about peanut
Speaking of bassmage they teamed up and won a doubles major against mkleo. Never forget.
@@aidantalksalot5132 Mac is a little too garbage of a character to win a major and peanut isn’t close to a top player
@@aidantalksalot5132 not even close
His only weakness is that hes slow. Everything else he has is broken
This is why ultimate is so good. Nearly every character can be seen as good if used the right way
It really is shockingly well balanced. One of the best video games ever in my opinion
Except for Marth apparently :(
Lol smash balanced if cheese is what you call balance ok
nice Guts pic
@@azulesmalls5514 So many people just call him worse lucina. Like, even if he has potential, it's so difficult to use him well. It's not like Mario, Fox, or PT because he simply doesn't have the same good tools as them. It saddens me and almost made me want to quit because of it
7:20 for anyone wondering, Incineroar has dmg based armour (~15%) starting on Frame 1 of the second half of side B (after grab connects) to prevent his high startup, high commitment, easy to avoid, command grab from getting canceled if someone with good aerials just unga bungas you. The armour lasts until frame 55~60 ish idk off hand.
23:42 - 24:22 Every now and then Coney reminds you why he's a commentator. That was exquisitely stated.
Also...we're talking about Incineroar's surprising result and with good reason, but can we take a moment to just emphasize that freaking Grand Finals was Incineroar versus RICHTER? This game's balance level is jaw-dropping.
“A lot of characters die at 76%. That is a whole jigglypuffs life” fucking sent me lmao. Coney is the man. Also yeah wtf, and even now I still think there are other sleeper characters that are extremely under-explored. Wii fit, corrin, the pits, hell I even think the links are a little underrated. Obviously we can’t speak for ultimates life expectancy, but I’d love to see character optimization fleshed out to the fullest in the next couple of years!
15:33 Revenge has 2 frames of Invincibility on startup, 25 active frames, and 12 frames of Invincibility afterward, for a total of 49 frames (my numbers might be slightly off because I counted myself, but that is pretty accurate).
I might be wrong about this, but I'm not sure.
Why did you count for yourself when you can go to UltimateFrameData?
Is that what that strange flash was that Esam pointed out?
I’m just happy to see Incineroar receive a glow-up similar to the one Byleth got
they’re not even close to comparable, leo has won several majors with byleth, in part because he’s the best player on the scene, skyjay occasionally top 16s majors and won one regional, not saying that’s not anything to scoff at, but you should recognize the difference
@@yeehaw8089 he consistently got at the very least into top 32 at every major he went to since the online era
@@bowsertnt7904 yeah I’m not saying that’s unimpressive what I’m saying is he isn’t top 8-ing anything
I was not necessarily taking about placements more so the fact that nobody batted an eye until Leo picked up Byleth and Skyjay picked up Incineroar and people realised their potential (obviously Byleth more so than Incin)
@@anonymous7024 I remember when during the Byleth reveal in this one stream, the second Sakurai said he would have slower speed, 95% of the chat became everyone screaming some form of "Slow! He bottom tier!" *kirk face palm*
I so wanted to say shut your Melee mentality asses up.
Incin has to be at least mid tier. This character is slow, yes, but the other tools he has are just flat out better than low tiers. If Incin was faster he would be high or top in my eyes
The difference between incin and a real low tier like Kirby is that if you camp Kirby he has almost no option. He doesn't have fast options other than ftilt and nair but they are so damned small. But if you camp incin you better play perfect because a mistake will be fatal. And there is literally always a threat of side b and counter. You have to play around incin, every single game he's in.
If Incin was fast it would be an affront to game design lol
If incin was fast he'd be the most broken character smash has ever seen besides metaknight
Incins moveset is broken, if he had movement speed he would literally be top tier. All his moves are good. I have him at high mid tier on my list.
@@freedfg6694 Kirby main here - can vouch for everything said here. I was floored when Marss, Esam, and Wadi chose Incin over Kirby in their bottom 10 video.
If Kirby was even just a little faster -or had better special moves,- he'd be way more competent competitively. But if Incineroar was even just a little faster, he'd be one of the best characters in the game.
3:30 "What kind of brain do you have to have to go for this?"
Skyjay: "It would be cool if this down air landed"
As an Incin main Skyjay is an inspiration. Incin is slow, yes, but his kit is just so damn strong otherwise. If he were reasonably fast he'd be oppressive. I'm glad players like Skyjay and MysterySol can show people not to underestimate the character.
people need to stop saying his recovery is trash cause it isn't it just isn't the best
About the Incineroar flashing white ESAM mentioned at 15:34, I think it might be something similar to Shadow I-frames in Smash 4, a technique that let Shulk carry over/extend the invincibility frames from Vision by doing the aerial version and landing with a specific timing
I know he doesn't have that tech anymore but maybe Revenge can do the same in Ultimate, otherwise I don't really know, might have just been a texture glitch
similar things happen with greninja.... but on the ledge instead. I'm not sure what it is but it must be a counter thing and it sure is weird
I haven't done any research so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly confident its a visual glitch. I've mained Incineroar for a while, and only started noticing it after 13.0.1 released. Shows up after revenge like 5% of the time, disappears after half a second.
As an Incin main, I can confirm it’s a visual glitch. It does not give more invincibility unfortunately
@@katarmstrong7168 ah too bad then, I play Incin pretty often and landing can really be an issue, so it would have helped if it did work like Shulk's counter in Smash 4. Still cool to have confirmation
@@noahvick1472 that's sad, I thought it was like the patched invincible Luigi tornado
Both Skyjay and Dom beat Chag? It is great to see character speciallists be this succesful
As an Incineroar player myself, I feel so vindicated that Spicy Kitty is getting recognized as a threat and not low-tier trash. For real, though, this guy is nuts. I wouldn't even have the balls to go after some of these confirms.
He lands that side b dair and just NODS. I would be going crazy!
lmao i do that all the time on quickplay
i'm surprised it took this long for people to start doing it in actual tournaments since its an amazing bait
@@koncentra5767 You don't face pros in quickplay
@@agentjj1237 congrats on missing the point of my comment
@@koncentra5767 Wait then what's the point?
Dumb it down for me, I'm not smart. Generally Side-B to Dair wouldn't work on pro players unless your a god like Skyjay
@@agentjj1237 you do that option when they need to jump or do their recovery. It’s really practible, but most Incins don’t go offstage when they should since Incin is rly good at edgeguarding
I'm seeing a lot of "incineroar isn't good, skyjay is just amazing" and the fact that other incins were going on a rampage the last few months just dismantles that statement entirely. Incineroar is a good character.
Regardless he’s definitely not bottom tier
Incineroar’s revenge timer also goes down every time he whiffs a move. He loses more time for harder hitting moves, like smash attacks, and less for stuff like jab and aerials. Grabs are the best way to get rid of it usually, but that depends on who you’re playing.
@7:40 Incineroar's forward air normally isn't safe in shield against a shield grab but because he had that fat stack of Revenge it goes down to something like -4 on shield. Probably the best mix ups Incineroar has
As an Incineroar main I would beat my friends (who are better at the game than me) and when they’d rage about neutral B or Revenge-side B I’d troll them with things like “But my character is D-tier!” We started believing Incin was better than the community collectively agreed on, and now Skyjay is out here proving that in the right hands Incineroar is a FORCE to be reckoned with! 🔥🔥🔥
Incineroar honestly it’s probably mid tier or higher, he’s slow so yes he can struggling with punishing mistakes , But this proves that can be negated with skill, And he has a unique X factor where camping him out is a dangerous game, thanks to revenge, counters a couple projectiles and then hit you for 100
At any rate there's no way he's BOTTOM tier.
You are quite litteraly playing Russian roulette against this character
His recovery is exploitable, his speed means any character that can space him out doesn't have too hard a time, even with revenge as a factor (you can just grab him and it gets rid off the buffs). Revenge isn't a good enough mechanic to carry a low tier into mid tier.
@@tumultoustortellini but then he uses side b and you die at 60
@@loadingname5499 it's not that hard to avoid and it kills at 70 with good di.
That final set ended with an EIGHTY PERCENT damage command grab. Incineroar is the King Yeetus of Deletus. Hail the swoll cat.
Incin is mid tier imo, his mobility and recovery hold him back from high tier or somethin
His mobility yes at times but besides elite smash top incin mains don't get edgeguarded as easy. Can though yes but do they no.
Low mid tier cause of his or her mobility rlly hurt in neutral
His recovery is still better than a lot of people think. Doesn't mean it's good, but still not that bad.
I don’t really think he’s low tier. His mid imo also, and same about his speed and recovery.
@@nishanchelbi5054 I agree. I’d rather have incin’s recovery than DK’s
Bro….my mouth was just 😧 the whole time. Like thats on a whole nother level of skill and practice and knowing a character by heart and muscle memory. He just knows everything. I wanna see more people being godly with bottom tier characters
The double take on “is he dead?” Lol
Incineroar was never bad, some of his moves are like one of the best in the game and/or are still really solid since the launch of the game, if this character had a better recovery and was like 50% faster in terms of his movement, he'd absolutely be top tier, upper high tier at worst.
Yes he was in version 1.1 when his recovery went half the distance up I play Doc and Incin Doc had a less punishable recovery. There were some other buffs too but that was the most important. Incin is good now but he was worse earlier.
@@codystork3008 His recovery has always been bad, overall as a character he was never bad, all the good stuff he has now is mostly the same as back then. Even at launch, people would often comment that Incineroar had some really good moves for a slow heavyweight. I'd say he's a lower high-tier now but was a mid-tier at launch.
incin recovery literally isnt that bad at all he has 4 different B moves that are all good for getting back to ledge or stalling
Am I the only one who feels like low tier mains are nearly always better and scarier to fight than top tier mains? People who voluntarily play “bad” characters know something we don’t
It's mostly because they have to play a lot better against most, if not all the cast to have the success of top tiers, who have to commit less. Low tiers have to have the skill of playing characters with better tools that snuff out theirs and that knowing how to deal with it makes top tier mains crumble. A lot of the top tier mains do worse against specialists of "'bad characters'" because they only play against the same 20 good characters and not any of the "gimmicky low tiers" to know how to deal with them
I'm still more scared of fighting wolfs than I am of ever seeing a Doc even if all docs are on prescription medication when they play.
Skyjay is AMAZING
Finally my boy is getting the respect he deserves
dripcineroar
SkyJay has a grappler mindset omg.
The side-B miss option select is so fun in edge guards. You can Lariat or down air and my man just down aired him my hero.
If only Incine was as fast as bowser. A man can dream.
Its crazy cause one of the only moves I know that always beats the side-b is Diddy’s monkey flip. The command grab beats the side-b armor and takes priority over the command grab as well
Sakurai is crying tears of joy right now. His dream of people actually playing his game rather than 3 characters on 3 maps is coming true.
Glad to see my boy getting some love.
This is why I love Incineroar. In a single frame, you go from winning by 30 to losing by 40 and 2 inches from the blast zone.
YES THANK YOU EXPLAIN WHY MY BOY ISN'T BAD
The moral of this video is "I'm grateful for playing a top tier that fucks up Incineroar, cause Skyjay is op"
HE PUT PALU INTO A BODY BAG
I love seeing people play low-mid to low tier characters! It makes it feel like every character can be amazing (or is amazing) if they're in good hands. Its nice. I main a low-mid tier (Zelda) so it would be cool to see someone shine with her :)
I've been playing Incineroar since I got Ultimate so watching him get some recognition is amazing
I've been an Incin main since launch and it is so nice to see Skyjay demolishing people lmaoo
Finally some incineroar appreciation
This vid makes me want to go back and see what I can get with Incineroar again.
"why is incineroar winning now at the late stage of ultimate"
because incineroar was buffed about 6 or 7 times in the course of ultimate
I love skyjay so hype and fun to watch
Everyone seems to forget incineroar got buffed not too long ago. Lot of characters got buffs to their strengths but were left with their downsides the same. Incineroar seems to be one of the few where that actually made any difference. Speed still sucks but damn 76% in one move? This guys cracked. On dom aswell who is an incredible player definitely not your average belmont.
12:40 that white flash thing is just a common incineroar bug after a whiffed revenge, the revenge animation has him rapidly flash purple and white but he landed right at the end of it so it kept the effect during the endlag
Aw man, Wadi's spirit just makes me happy :)
My brain melted, I love incineroar, always have but holy crap.
I love seeing more pros from Mexico being Mexican myself, also, Incineroar? who would've thought. I'm expecting more pros that main low tiers. They are hype
Just generally covering these low tier mains that are doing really well is a good thing I think.
this character just needs to be faster because with his features like revenge he can turn a game upside down. Not even a very high speed would be needed but one at the level of the other heavyweight like ganondorf or k rool
To anyone else with ADHD who couldn't place the music. It's from Sonic Adventure 2 - Song name: 34°N, 12°E ...For Mad Space
at 16:58 , when Coneezy says "How do you side-B Belmont", is it just me or does the audio of "belmont" carry over to the WaDi clip immediately after?
I'm high btw
Hey I went to fof!!! And I actually almost beat Peckham best min min in so cal and he told me after he won that he has to work on the hero matchup 😁
15:34 it’s like a visual glitch that happens when you use revenge in the air , also happens with Greninja
always love skyjay analysis
Its crazy how Incineroar winning a tournament can be either expected or shocking depending on the game being played.
You see Incineroar tear through so many top players and begin to believe, then you watch Skyjay vs Marss where the downsides of Incineroar as a character are highlighted.
@@harpot678 Oh I was referring to incineroar in its own series but yeah very true.
Props to him for replacing Magister after the latter vanished. Also the fact that he can nail the side b is good enough for me
big kitty man is stronk idc what the tier list says
As a Steelers fan, Skyjay has now become one of my favorite competitors.
Fun fact: with a 5 revenge stack. Incinaroar can do 100% damage.
Note: 5 is the max for neutral attacks. Smash/specials attacks would be 3.
I've been saying for years if he just got a movement speed buff he'd be top 10 maybe top 5. He can't be THAT bad with his slow ass
Agreed, depending on how buffed his speed is.
A movement speed buff would make most low tiers into top tiers
@@toowiggly Not like it would him. He's literally the slowest in the game and has a nasty moveset. Maybe top 30's yeah, but it would make him top 10+
Yeah, he's literally one of the slowest runners in the game.
@@AshenDemon Literally THE slowest.
One of my favorite things to get at 0% is down throw -> down air at ledge, if they mess up their DI u can literally kill at 0%
The fact that the finale of this tournament is incinroar vs belmont is why I love this game
People just play whatever
who's belmont?
that flashing was a missed revenge
It's just sheer mind games imo. I mean think about it. All analysies made were either a "Why would he do this?" Or "How much did that do?!". That's exactly it. I mean we went for 2 ledge trumps in a row, then goes for "another" just to get a nasty punish in anticipation for the bait, which if you recalled, Hook, Line, and Sinker
Incineroar with a speed buff = Skyjay getting to top 10 in the world
Alright so I WAS an Incin not being Bottom 10 believer before this video. Now I'm unsure if that cat is not actually high tier. Imagine casually threestocking one of the world's best Palutenas multiple times
This one aged well with collision
I think, end of the day, people need to open their eyes and realize that character speed means next to nothing in this game.
If character speed mattered as much as everyone seems to claim it does, the Leo and Sparg0 wouldn't be getting the results they do with Byleth. If character speed mattered as much as everyone seems to think it does, Shiek would be the undisputed best character in the game.
Character. Movement. Speed. Does. Not. Matter. What matters is their frame data, their raw power, and their options.
15:45 I'm pretty sure he was trying to air dodge or shield and spot dodge thinking that he wasn't still dropping down and was on the ground? It's strange because normally he'll blink like that at the beginning of revenge so it might be a visual bug.
Lor-ha-mercy on Skyjay's foes
But that 67% mystery is not a real mystery. When “the cat” is in that fired up state due to the down B connecting and deflecting a move from an opponent, “the cat’s” moves in that state is temporarily increased. Not like Lucario’s moves being more powerful as he climbs in damage percent, but there is an increase for Incineroar.
I’ve always said incineroar is not bad and finaly people realize that
I main Incineroar and I’m happy to have found SkyJay. This dude is insane!
Bruh, Skyjay makes Incinaroar look like a top character.
I feel like i've seen the art style of WaDi's mewtwo poster before, but I can't find it anywhere. Anybody know?
Incineroar wins most contested hitboxes, and he has a command grab, also his counter can lead to kills at 20% on light characters. Also he has a jumping down smash that acts sort of like a spot dodge. He's pretty nasty. But he's also slow and if he wiffs he's combo food.
Congrats SkyJay!!!!
Who ever said he was bottom or low?
There's only few low tiers: doc, mac, dedede, ganon.
If incineroar had the ground speed of of like,oh idk peach you would here calls for nerfs like no tomorrow
Skyjay is goated holy shit
Dry Lagoon such a jam. You guys should name the songs you use in the description or something lol.
I'm gonna say it right now I've always thought inciniroar was a good character used to be my secondary now he's just one of my best characters but still he isn't bad
I only thought he was lowtier when I first started following smash and saw some tier lists, then I watched gameplay and fought against a few and immediately began to doubt it. I firmly believe hes no lower than mid especially watching shadic and bullhall go back and forth at their local so much. (Which if you guys haven't seen those two play go check them out their sets are always nuts)
Personally, I like how Skyjay uses him, but I hate how certain characters like incin are always given this safety net treatment. Like if they lose, it's nothing big because you beat a "low tier" character. But if they do well with them, it's all the opponent's fault and that you should be ashamed for losing to a "low tier". It's one thing I've struggled with a lot, and idk what can be done
I don’t know where I got the Idea but if there’s ever a smash movie with voices, I want to hear Idris Elba as Inceneroar
As a belmont player myself, and I can't speak for Dom but that matchup isn't as much of an instant win for Belmont as you'd think, and Skyjay showed why. Incin's high knockback + so many of the projectiles being Revenge food, combo that with belmont's awful disadvantage, incin's absolutely absurd up air, and you have a recipe for a matchup that looks god awful on paper but is far closer to a 6-4 or even a 5-5 than you'd think
Friendly reminder that a rest revenged side b does over 100%, incin go dummy
Dude is insane
0:53
God I Iove wadi. He’s a content *MACHINE*
What is he even saying 😂
There no bad characters it’s more about consistent they are.
That was awesome dude
Revenge makes zoners think wayyy harder about zoning
Incineroar is my main, so it's nice to see high level players use him, so I can learn from them.
NASTY combos dude 😂😂
If Alolan Whip was on a faster character they'd be a force to be reckoned with
It's like how Sakurai said he will not accept that people say DK sucks I guess in this case the same goes for Incineroar
People forget that incineroar is the single most buffed character in ultimate, like actually
Read over all the patch notes, nobody gets as many buffs as incin throughout all of ultimate (and im not counting universal/characteristic changes, universal hitbox changes/frame changes and something like pichu taking more self damage across the board)
And they aint small
Pretty sure his recovery got buffed several times