I did my first Marathon race 2 weeks ago at 44 years old.. I purchased Dr Wills 13 week marathon race programme. I followed it and raced my marathon to the data Dr Will suggested, not a time goal. Following his programme resulted in a 2:56:44 marathon time, 10 minutes faster than expected, and 3 minutes faster than my wildest dreams. I'm sure that if I aimed for time I would have failed. Can not recommend highly enough.
I have run my first Marathon at 42 years old this year. 10km-36minutes, 21km 1:19 minutes. And I was so disappointed 😞 that I finish the marathon at 3:03:47 . But I learnt now a lesson. Thanks
This is so correct. In fact, I would say it applies to any event from 5k upwards. We train for those flat, perfect conditions, but how often do we get that?
It's pretty much like chasing an ADDICTION. OH gee.. must beat my time. Ok. You beat your time.. and on the next time and next time. .. doesn't end does it?
My first marathon was last month at 49 yrs old. I was actually quite realistic in aiming for sub 3 hrs, having trained well and run 1:21 for the half. But combine pre race nerves with Robert de Castella coming over to chat to my mate next to me... and forgetting the first 10km contained most of the hills... well, after 10km in 40 minutes I suddenly panicked. I knew I had deviated from the plan. Km 20 to 37 were pain. Fortunately I went into track mode in the last 5km and started picking people off but the damage was done. 3:16 was still ok and I know that I am a middle distance runner at heart now.
lol, my PR is 3:05.... (not that I could run that next weekend, I'm still recovering from a 100M ultra 2 weeks ago and planning another in 3 weeks). Next marathon isn't until Dec. Do I have 5 minutes in me still? IDK, but I think while it's an ambitious, it's a realistic goal. Goals aren't suppose to be guaranteed.
Thank you for the video. I really enjoy the sensible and data driven approach to marathon training. I'm quite the data nerd myself and I love using data to improve my training and racing. I recently ran a PB in 3:27:26 (3 weeks ago) so I wouldn't want to run another marathon next weekend 🙂In that PB attempt, I was kind of hoping for a 3:30 but I focused on my HR and Power readings to keep them in the ranges I had set for myself beforehand based on my training. If all went to plan, sticking to those should give me the desired sub 3:30 and it worked. I ran the first half in 1:44:11 and the second half in 1:43:15, slightly negative splits with a slowly increasing HR and pretty even power averages, depending on up and downhill bits. It's a half course that we run twice so the halves are comparable, gentle uphill for kms 3-7 and 24-28 and then again towards the end of the loop kms 16-19 and 37-40. My fastest 5k was the last one, 35-40k and the final 2.2 km were the fastest of the entire race. My 5k splits were 24:23, 24:43, 23:57, 25:00, 25:00, 24:39, 24:05, 23:54, then 4:45, 4:48 for km 41 and 42, and 4:30 pace for the final bit. I had a slump in the middle of the race when I was out in front of the 3:30 pacer group battling the wind alone. Normally, I'd prefer it that way to avoid chaos at the drink stations but on a windy day, I realized that this was stupid and I would wear myself out too soon. I let them catch me so that I could benefit from their wake to get through the toughest part of the course (uphill into a headwind for kms 24-28) before I left them again and then ran a strong final 14 km. It got tough on the final 5k stretch but I had enough left in the tank to finish strong. Lessons implemented on the day: stick to the plan no matter what the others around you do, start conservatively and race the conditions. I noticed that when things got tough around 17 or 18 km, running slightly uphill into the headwind, the other runners around me ahead of the group seemed to speed up because they wanted to make an arbitrary goal at the half marathon timing mat. I slowed down because I didn't want to overcook it and I didn't really care about the time there - it's the time at 42.2 km that counts. The pacer group came closer and I was swallowed but it was a good thing. I saw the others later when they slowed down and couldn't keep up with the group while I had enough reserves to run away from them later. After the race, I thanked the pacers for their incredible job, they really helped me to get through the tough bits. I think I read somewhere that you can hope to improve by 1-4% with each training block, depending on how well it goes and how many races you've already completed. When setting a goal, I keep those ranges in mind. It's probably quite close to the 5 minutes you mentioned in the video. Interesting data snippet: My average power increased by 1 W from 178 W last year to 179 W this year but I was 2:10 min faster. So a 0.56% increase in power resulted in a 1.04% increase in performance - same race weight. I think I just got a bit more efficient overall. I have to say that last year, I had 18 weeks of uninterrupted training while this year, I had only 12 weeks to prepare because of a bad cold 16 weeks from the race. So with comparable training, I could have improved by more than 1% but I made the best out of the training I managed to get done.
Wow, thanks for the extensive run-down. It sounds like you did everything correct. Especially not speeding up on that uphill midway through. All the best for the next one!
@@drwilloconnor thank you for all your content and sorry for the lengthy comment. I only realized how long it was when I opened it on my phone instead of my computer, oops. I've been following your channel for a while and took some important points on board which lead to that performance. I guess I just got quite excited about the successful race and 3 weeks later I'm still buzzing.
So I’ve watched this video 3x to get the video straight. So if I’m understanding correctly, with previous workouts, as well as Vdot calculations from recent efforts, my marathon time would guaranteed be 3:05. I start at that pace, would give me a 44-45min 10k. Each 10, I just aim for slightly faster than that, with going as fast as possible in the final 2 km’s? That would make sense in my mind because the final 10k section would still be >1 min slower than my fastest 10k
Loving your content Will, i have a situation where i ran a 2:53 Marathon 2 years ago (turned 47 today) have been running for about 6 years and keep solid fitness averaging 80km per week year round... i see the plans starting out with short distances at marathon pace and hear people find say 10k at pace challenging at the start of their build up but for me i think i could run close to my PB (within maybe 5 min) at any time. This means i find it hard to justify starting off so carefully with such a big build up, as i feel i would actually lose fitness by doing that... perhaps i need a faster goal time so my shorter distances at the start of the build are faster and i aim for say a 2:45.. long message so thanks for your reply in advance! oh yeah i should add that the 2:53 was a slight negative split that i felt i raced conservatively to keep an ITB issue at bay that i have struggled with in a few marathons Thanks again Will
Yeah, I think if you are already doing 80km, then there is no need to ‘fall back’ to lower volume. Most marathon plans probably do not assume you are running that much (probably more suited to people that were doing 30-40km weeks).
Thanks for that, it's more about the pace/length of the marathon efforts as say starting with 10k at marathon pace during a long run is pretty easy due to keeping my consistent fitness up
Nice. And why pace over power which I’ve seen you use before? This should be effort pace (coros) or GAP? I have similarly thought about running a half marathon at 45mins subthreshold and trying to increase to threshold for the last 45 mins.
Did exactly as described at the start. But I don’t care tbh. I went out for sub3, hit the wall at 30k, ran 3:10. Comfortably ran that pace for 36km in training 2 weeks before. But 3:01 would feel little better than 3:10, it was worth it so I’ll never die wondering if it could have been!
This ia a great video! I am trying to go for a sub 3 hour marathon in 16 weeks and I feel like I could do around a 3:15 marathon now. but I have done no speed work and been around 35 miles for the last 4 weeks as I build my base. Are you thinking that I should go for a 3:10 based on that metric? or should I wait until I am closer to the race to do this test?
I think it is perfectly fine to have a benchmark goal while training for a specific race. The video is talking more about the actual race day goals and and pacing. For that, you have to be more realistic once you get to the end of your training block. What happens with a lot of people is they will start of the race trying for a 3hr pace and then just die out in the 2nd half because it was just too much. They end up running a worse time compare if they just stuck to a more realistic ‘3:05-3:10’. Remember that if you still feel you have tons left in the tank, you can always speed up your last third.
I agree. Run through this test a couple of weeks before your race. If you can't guarantee me a 3:05, you're better off running to a slower schedule and hoping you've got something special in the second half.
@@drwilloconnor yeah. Plus it always feels better to have a bit in the tank and speeding up towards the end rather than dying in the last 3-4 KMs. It is super demoralising and puts a damper on trying again in the next marathon.
I've never run a marathon so I'm a little unsure what I could 100% do time wise. My half marathon recently done was 1:23. Assuming I could def do a 3:10
Have you done longer runs? Maybe not full marathons but something like 30km? If you can do 1:23 half, it likely means you have the aerobic base to do 3:10. Just need to get down your refueling strategy as that will be the biggest difference between the half and the full.
@@DTOWNRW16 I see. Depends on when you plan to try a marathon. You should definitely at least have couple 30km+ runs during your training. Unlike the half where typically training plans will have you run the half marathon distance a couple times at least. Most full marathon plans do not have you try doing the full distance due to the recovery time. But a couple 30km sessions should probably in your plan. Your aerobic base should be fine. The key is just the endurance and your muscles holding up. Also the eating/refueling aspect as it is a must for full marathon. Did you have any gels during your HM? As it does take getting used to for some people.
@bensonvong I'll be trying the philly marathon in November. So plenty of time to train. I didn't have 2 gels during and didn't have trouble with digestion. I plan on doing a long training block for the race
When you come from a place of experience it's easy to change how you approach a race as your body has felt those wrong decisions. I'll be running my first marathon in 2 weeks and all my long runs and training up to 21 miles have been on hilly undulating routes. But the race is downhill first 5 miles then flat. So I really don't know what I'm capable of so can't pinpoint an exact pace to go for. But I'll definitely be finding out. 😂 then I can take this advice for the next one.
Are you suggesting to do a testmarathon during the marathon build up using the start too slow finish too fast strategy? If so, I wonder if this is not too taxing for the body and implicating a recovery period of min. 3 weeks? The longest longrun at marathon pace in the common build up as I read is max 27km.
Hey Mike, it will be very specific to the individual and how much load they can tolerate. I wouldn’t suggest doing a marathon in the central part of your build-up, but 3-4 months out, you should be able to tolerate a “test” marathon. With two weeks of recovery, you’d still have plenty of time for the bulk of your marathon training. With such an aggressive negative split, it'll be hard to dig yourself too deep into a hole compared to starting fast and suffering.
@@drwilloconnor Thanks, that is very helpful 👌🏻; I will plan a test marathon with negative split 3-4 months out, that sounds like a good idea! 4 weeks ago I went out too fast. I knew the risk and took it. I did get a huge PB of 3.05 but got reminded how much suffering it takes to finish when hitting the wall at km 30. Looking back I am convinced that I could have run a couple of minutes faster or at least as fast and with a lot more pleasure if I had used the negative split pacing strategy.
How does one answer "what could you do next weekend?" before trying to do it? I'm my case that's for my 1st marathon, but would apply for anyone training really. 🤔
Good common sense advice. Of If I had a $1 for every experienced CZcams runner who does the opposite of what you recommend and the. Then always publish “lessons learnt” after, only to repeat the same error at next marathon. Rinse and repeat 🤣🤣🤣
I think you're making things overly complex when 2 words summarize the objective, "negative splits". You're supposed to aim high and then learn, train, & know how to achieve negative splits at the marathon distance and you're far more likely to avoid missteps (make mistakes) and realize goals. Aim high, keep it simple, stay relaxed.
I did my first Marathon race 2 weeks ago at 44 years old.. I purchased Dr Wills 13 week marathon race programme. I followed it and raced my marathon to the data Dr Will suggested, not a time goal. Following his programme resulted in a 2:56:44 marathon time, 10 minutes faster than expected, and 3 minutes faster than my wildest dreams. I'm sure that if I aimed for time I would have failed.
Can not recommend highly enough.
Is this a scam...?
Running my second marathon this weekend after a 13 year hiatus, so this great advice!
I have run my first Marathon at 42 years old this year. 10km-36minutes, 21km 1:19 minutes. And I was so disappointed 😞 that I finish the marathon at 3:03:47 . But I learnt now a lesson. Thanks
This is so correct. In fact, I would say it applies to any event from 5k upwards. We train for those flat, perfect conditions, but how often do we get that?
I'm still waiting 😂
Love this mental cue/tool. I'll keep it in mind 👍💪🙌
It's pretty much like chasing an ADDICTION.
OH gee.. must beat my time. Ok. You beat your time.. and on the next time and next time. .. doesn't end does it?
My first marathon was last month at 49 yrs old. I was actually quite realistic in aiming for sub 3 hrs, having trained well and run 1:21 for the half. But combine pre race nerves with Robert de Castella coming over to chat to my mate next to me... and forgetting the first 10km contained most of the hills... well, after 10km in 40 minutes I suddenly panicked. I knew I had deviated from the plan. Km 20 to 37 were pain. Fortunately I went into track mode in the last 5km and started picking people off but the damage was done. 3:16 was still ok and I know that I am a middle distance runner at heart now.
lol, my PR is 3:05.... (not that I could run that next weekend, I'm still recovering from a 100M ultra 2 weeks ago and planning another in 3 weeks). Next marathon isn't until Dec. Do I have 5 minutes in me still? IDK, but I think while it's an ambitious, it's a realistic goal. Goals aren't suppose to be guaranteed.
Thank you for the video. I really enjoy the sensible and data driven approach to marathon training. I'm quite the data nerd myself and I love using data to improve my training and racing.
I recently ran a PB in 3:27:26 (3 weeks ago) so I wouldn't want to run another marathon next weekend 🙂In that PB attempt, I was kind of hoping for a 3:30 but I focused on my HR and Power readings to keep them in the ranges I had set for myself beforehand based on my training. If all went to plan, sticking to those should give me the desired sub 3:30 and it worked. I ran the first half in 1:44:11 and the second half in 1:43:15, slightly negative splits with a slowly increasing HR and pretty even power averages, depending on up and downhill bits. It's a half course that we run twice so the halves are comparable, gentle uphill for kms 3-7 and 24-28 and then again towards the end of the loop kms 16-19 and 37-40.
My fastest 5k was the last one, 35-40k and the final 2.2 km were the fastest of the entire race. My 5k splits were 24:23, 24:43, 23:57, 25:00, 25:00, 24:39, 24:05, 23:54, then 4:45, 4:48 for km 41 and 42, and 4:30 pace for the final bit. I had a slump in the middle of the race when I was out in front of the 3:30 pacer group battling the wind alone. Normally, I'd prefer it that way to avoid chaos at the drink stations but on a windy day, I realized that this was stupid and I would wear myself out too soon. I let them catch me so that I could benefit from their wake to get through the toughest part of the course (uphill into a headwind for kms 24-28) before I left them again and then ran a strong final 14 km. It got tough on the final 5k stretch but I had enough left in the tank to finish strong.
Lessons implemented on the day: stick to the plan no matter what the others around you do, start conservatively and race the conditions. I noticed that when things got tough around 17 or 18 km, running slightly uphill into the headwind, the other runners around me ahead of the group seemed to speed up because they wanted to make an arbitrary goal at the half marathon timing mat. I slowed down because I didn't want to overcook it and I didn't really care about the time there - it's the time at 42.2 km that counts. The pacer group came closer and I was swallowed but it was a good thing. I saw the others later when they slowed down and couldn't keep up with the group while I had enough reserves to run away from them later. After the race, I thanked the pacers for their incredible job, they really helped me to get through the tough bits.
I think I read somewhere that you can hope to improve by 1-4% with each training block, depending on how well it goes and how many races you've already completed. When setting a goal, I keep those ranges in mind. It's probably quite close to the 5 minutes you mentioned in the video.
Interesting data snippet: My average power increased by 1 W from 178 W last year to 179 W this year but I was 2:10 min faster. So a 0.56% increase in power resulted in a 1.04% increase in performance - same race weight. I think I just got a bit more efficient overall.
I have to say that last year, I had 18 weeks of uninterrupted training while this year, I had only 12 weeks to prepare because of a bad cold 16 weeks from the race. So with comparable training, I could have improved by more than 1% but I made the best out of the training I managed to get done.
Wow, thanks for the extensive run-down. It sounds like you did everything correct. Especially not speeding up on that uphill midway through. All the best for the next one!
@@drwilloconnor thank you for all your content and sorry for the lengthy comment. I only realized how long it was when I opened it on my phone instead of my computer, oops.
I've been following your channel for a while and took some important points on board which lead to that performance. I guess I just got quite excited about the successful race and 3 weeks later I'm still buzzing.
So I’ve watched this video 3x to get the video straight. So if I’m understanding correctly, with previous workouts, as well as Vdot calculations from recent efforts, my marathon time would guaranteed be 3:05. I start at that pace, would give me a 44-45min 10k. Each 10, I just aim for slightly faster than that, with going as fast as possible in the final 2 km’s? That would make sense in my mind because the final 10k section would still be >1 min slower than my fastest 10k
Loving your content Will, i have a situation where i ran a 2:53 Marathon 2 years ago (turned 47 today) have been running for about 6 years and keep solid fitness averaging 80km per week year round... i see the plans starting out with short distances at marathon pace and hear people find say 10k at pace challenging at the start of their build up but for me i think i could run close to my PB (within maybe 5 min) at any time. This means i find it hard to justify starting off so carefully with such a big build up, as i feel i would actually lose fitness by doing that... perhaps i need a faster goal time so my shorter distances at the start of the build are faster and i aim for say a 2:45.. long message so thanks for your reply in advance! oh yeah i should add that the 2:53 was a slight negative split that i felt i raced conservatively to keep an ITB issue at bay that i have struggled with in a few marathons
Thanks again Will
Yeah, I think if you are already doing 80km, then there is no need to ‘fall back’ to lower volume. Most marathon plans probably do not assume you are running that much (probably more suited to people that were doing 30-40km weeks).
Thanks for that, it's more about the pace/length of the marathon efforts as say starting with 10k at marathon pace during a long run is pretty easy due to keeping my consistent fitness up
Would love a breakdown of how you came to those paces for the practice per 10k. Percentage of threshold?
It was % of threshold. I believe it was the very bottom end of Z3. Around 88-90%. Then progressed approx 2% from there.
Nice. And why pace over power which I’ve seen you use before? This should be effort pace (coros) or GAP?
I have similarly thought about running a half marathon at 45mins subthreshold and trying to increase to threshold for the last 45 mins.
Did exactly as described at the start. But I don’t care tbh. I went out for sub3, hit the wall at 30k, ran 3:10. Comfortably ran that pace for 36km in training 2 weeks before. But 3:01 would feel little better than 3:10, it was worth it so I’ll never die wondering if it could have been!
This ia a great video! I am trying to go for a sub 3 hour marathon in 16 weeks and I feel like I could do around a 3:15 marathon now. but I have done no speed work and been around 35 miles for the last 4 weeks as I build my base. Are you thinking that I should go for a 3:10 based on that metric? or should I wait until I am closer to the race to do this test?
I think it is perfectly fine to have a benchmark goal while training for a specific race. The video is talking more about the actual race day goals and and pacing. For that, you have to be more realistic once you get to the end of your training block.
What happens with a lot of people is they will start of the race trying for a 3hr pace and then just die out in the 2nd half because it was just too much. They end up running a worse time compare if they just stuck to a more realistic ‘3:05-3:10’. Remember that if you still feel you have tons left in the tank, you can always speed up your last third.
I agree. Run through this test a couple of weeks before your race. If you can't guarantee me a 3:05, you're better off running to a slower schedule and hoping you've got something special in the second half.
@@drwilloconnor yeah. Plus it always feels better to have a bit in the tank and speeding up towards the end rather than dying in the last 3-4 KMs. It is super demoralising and puts a damper on trying again in the next marathon.
I've never run a marathon so I'm a little unsure what I could 100% do time wise. My half marathon recently done was 1:23. Assuming I could def do a 3:10
Have you done longer runs? Maybe not full marathons but something like 30km? If you can do 1:23 half, it likely means you have the aerobic base to do 3:10. Just need to get down your refueling strategy as that will be the biggest difference between the half and the full.
@bensonvong I haven't. Longest run I've done was about 1 hr 50 minutes. Not sure the distance. Peak milage was 40 during the training for it
@@DTOWNRW16 I see. Depends on when you plan to try a marathon. You should definitely at least have couple 30km+ runs during your training. Unlike the half where typically training plans will have you run the half marathon distance a couple times at least. Most full marathon plans do not have you try doing the full distance due to the recovery time. But a couple 30km sessions should probably in your plan. Your aerobic base should be fine. The key is just the endurance and your muscles holding up. Also the eating/refueling aspect as it is a must for full marathon. Did you have any gels during your HM? As it does take getting used to for some people.
@bensonvong I'll be trying the philly marathon in November. So plenty of time to train. I didn't have 2 gels during and didn't have trouble with digestion. I plan on doing a long training block for the race
When you come from a place of experience it's easy to change how you approach a race as your body has felt those wrong decisions.
I'll be running my first marathon in 2 weeks and all my long runs and training up to 21 miles have been on hilly undulating routes. But the race is downhill first 5 miles then flat. So I really don't know what I'm capable of so can't pinpoint an exact pace to go for. But I'll definitely be finding out. 😂 then I can take this advice for the next one.
The first one is usually the best! Good luck.
Are you suggesting to do a testmarathon during the marathon build up using the start too slow finish too fast strategy? If so, I wonder if this is not too taxing for the body and implicating a recovery period of min. 3 weeks? The longest longrun at marathon pace in the common build up as I read is max 27km.
Hey Mike, it will be very specific to the individual and how much load they can tolerate. I wouldn’t suggest doing a marathon in the central part of your build-up, but 3-4 months out, you should be able to tolerate a “test” marathon. With two weeks of recovery, you’d still have plenty of time for the bulk of your marathon training. With such an aggressive negative split, it'll be hard to dig yourself too deep into a hole compared to starting fast and suffering.
@@drwilloconnor Thanks, that is very helpful 👌🏻; I will plan a test marathon with negative split 3-4 months out, that sounds like a good idea! 4 weeks ago I went out too fast. I knew the risk and took it. I did get a huge PB of 3.05 but got reminded how much suffering it takes to finish when hitting the wall at km 30. Looking back I am convinced that I could have run a couple of minutes faster or at least as fast and with a lot more pleasure if I had used the negative split pacing strategy.
How does one answer "what could you do next weekend?" before trying to do it?
I'm my case that's for my 1st marathon, but would apply for anyone training really. 🤔
Good common sense advice. Of If I had a $1 for every experienced CZcams runner who does the opposite of what you recommend and the. Then always publish “lessons learnt” after, only to repeat the same error at next marathon. Rinse and repeat 🤣🤣🤣
so he ran faster by not taking your advice?
3 minutes :)
are these all bots in the comments lol
I think you're making things overly complex when 2 words summarize the objective, "negative splits". You're supposed to aim high and then learn, train, & know how to achieve negative splits at the marathon distance and you're far more likely to avoid missteps (make mistakes) and realize goals. Aim high, keep it simple, stay relaxed.