Can't tell you how funny it was that Coney had that long fight with his chat about JRPGs and difficult final bosses, and the firestarter for all that was Necron from FF9, maybe the easiest final bosses in Final Fantasy games, at least at that point in the franchise
I don't know if it was in the WatchMojo video and Coney just skipped over it but, you can't talk about hard JRPG bosses and not have Nyx Avatar from Persona 3, it's just straight up bullshit, grind or die and hope Night Queen doesn't absolutely fuck you over out of your control.
Necron took me a couple tries my first time playing FFIX, I was doing 9999 damage constantly, but the attack that gives you diferent status effects gave me some cruel combinations
@@howard8614 So true, if the developers didn’t intend for me to look at a guide they should have installed malware on my computer to stop me from moving to another window
@@unseenasymptote4976 Not sure if this is the joke or not, but I remember hearing about a Sonic fangame that actually did something similar to that. Look up Sonic Gather Battle.
I feel like Coney challenged himself to have the worst takes he could fit into one stream and you know what? Good for him. That's MY streamer. He NEVER spits.
I think the thing that makes RPG bosses hard is they make you make hard decisions. Like at base all you need to do is attack, heal, and block. But if you choose to do any of them at the wrong time you would prolly die making it hard.
@NANCOK You have a point. There is only a limited amount of things the boss will do as well as things you can do in response. I still think some bosses can be hard though.
@@Human-hv1qb ofc they can, but most difficulty from RPGs comes from bad design Bosses that hit way harder than they ahould at their level With gimmicks that are not explained or hinted at Or simply luck based fights
the more coney doubles down when chat starts going "??????????" the more i'm inclined to believe he's objectively wrong like if rng doesn't count as real difficulty then any fromsoft boss that doesn't do the exact same attack pattern every time isn't difficult
@@iknowwhereyoulive618 and sometimes what we think is rng isn't actually rng. Like a boss may switch up his moves if you do x and change again if you do y but you have no idea what you're doing is causing that and it may just seem like rng to the player
The Demifiend fight in Digital Devil Saga is probably the single hardest boss fight ever designed, and it's a JRPG. You need to have your characters maxed out to even stand a chance of winning, and even then you have to follow specific strategies during the fight and you can still easily get screwed, plus it has anticheese measures where if you try and negate too much damage you'll basically be instakilled. It's honestly ridiculous and I can't think of any other boss that comes close to being that frustrating and difficult.
If JRPG final bosses aren't hard because you can just grind until level cap and then beat them that way, Malenia isn't hard because you can just cheese build infini-laser her to death. Same logic.
Plus there are MANY video games where having high levels doesn't actually make you that much more powerful. A JRPG that's actually designed to be difficult means the strategy is always more important than just the raw numbers
JRPG is codeword for turn-based, that's what he means. Yeah in Dark Souls you can grind your shit to hell but the fact that the combat isn't turn-based and you actually have to execute whatever you wanna do makes it harder by premise
6:06 Fun facts about this guy - The reason he's so hard boils down to Imafune, basically saying "fuck it, let's make him hard as hell" - A legit strat to fighting him is jumping into the small yellow orbs since they hurt the least
The electric orbs don't hurt you the least, they actually do the most damage. The reason why you'd want to jump into them is so you don't get stun locked by the burning and freezing ones which can fuck up your positioning and cause you to get hit by the following attack cycle. Even then you don't want to get hit at all because wily out DPSs you and can out damage your E tanks. Insert nerd emoji here
That's player made challenge not just regular ass challenge. I've played a lot of JRPGs and he was spitting with the not requiring an executional barrier thing.
I would like to point out that EK is technically only difficult BECAUSE of the nuzlocke rules limiting you to encounters. If you caught every single optimal pokemon and looked up a guide/strat for each trainer fight and boss, it would probably be pretty easy.
@@thebakery3802 Up until the late game I think this would be true, just get the best Pokémon and go to 100, but even with the best Pokémon and guides and everything the elite 4 would most likely still be quite challenging
Coney: JRPG Bosses ain't hard, all you got to do is look up a guide as there is no reaction requirements. Me: *Having flashbacks to Dreamy Bowser from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team*
I was thinking of final Cackletta from Superstar Saga. Got stuck on her for years of occasional attempts before eventually remembering grinding was a thing XD
@@Hunted0LessShirt Yeah, I've heard the horror stories about them. Just never fought her. As for grinding sure, its always an option, but its kinda like a punishment for not being good enough one could argue.
@@murakii They are both turn based RPGs.... And look even removing any RPG that requires anything more than menu navigation during battles, saying turn based RPGs of such cannot have difficulty is like saying that playing against a chess AI cannot be difficult. Coney is quite incorrect on his points about RPGs.
If a JRPG is done well, the emergent strategies should be based on how the way you've set up your team and how they're able to deal with the obstacle put in front of you. A good game will account for differences in play style and make difficult bosses a non-trivial task. You can always look up how to set up your team and create a working strategy but you can say that about pretty much any boss in any game.
The argument that in a turn based RPG boss is easy because it’s not in real time kind of speaks that coney finds reacting to literally anything more difficult than something that gives you that time to think what you need to do because it’s difficult. Man needs to see emerald Kaizo and then he can tell me turn based is easy. I can’t beat Fatalis in stories consistently but you give me fatalis in world once I figured out the fight it’s another day in the office. But that might just be me it’s all opinions at the end of the day.
@@nonagonguy6121 you can increase your odds trough skill, but victory will still always be just luck If the game decides as much, you simply won't win Unless you are in a situation where there is no luck, like the enemy not having debuffs and you have sure damage as well as the ability to win even if the enemy gets consecutive crits Otherwise the outcome can only be influenced by you, not decided by you
@@rompevuevitos222 "if the game decides as much, you simply wont win" , that's pretty much all games, not just pokemon. Also most games in such shape or form have luck in them. Also, "the outcome can only be influenced by you, not decided by you" is literally the majority of most action/adventure games. Pokemon has many different and intricate strategies that would otherwise seem like it's luck (AI manipulation would be one example). Knowing when the AI is going to switch pokemon, what priority of moved the pokemon is going to make, when it's going to use potions/items to heal etc.
@@Ed95366 no, in games of skill, your skill decides the outcome, luck may make it harder or easier, but it still depends on you. Even Binding of Isaac which has a LOT of luck involved, if you dodge well, you can win the game while even taking no damage (see: The Lost) In Pokemon there is a ñiteral virtual dice that is thrown to decide if your action succeeds or not, your skill has no weight over that decision.
Love Coney coping with Malenia. Can literally beat her with any build and any play style, simply just play better. His argument about looking up a guide is so stupid when his biggest complaint is Waterfowl Dance; literally just look up how to dodge it lmao. It is extremely consistent
Melania is the most agreed upon garbage boss in fromsoft history (ignoring gimmicks like boc) her healing from every hit alone is stupid but a move that requires you to Google how to avoid it is fundamentally bad and an embarrassment to the devs
@@Watburnt Most agreed upon weenies. The healing barely benefits her when you can stagger lock her and waterfowl is predictable without a guide. Even magic builds make her free af with just using night comet. Most garbage boss is crucible knight duo.
@@Watburnt most agreed upon by WHO? Most people really like her and enjoy the challenge. The healing doesn’t effect the fight much unless you summon spirit ashes. You don’t need to look up how to dodge waterfowl, I learned by fighting her and trying out different things. I just said that googling it is an option and Coney clearly stated that there’s no difficulty if you can just google how to beat it, which you can with her.
JRPG boss difficulty comes mainly from two things, and they're _the_ _same_ things that make Soulsborne bosses difficult: 1. Boss Knowledge 2. Preparation They're not hard if you come in with plenty of knowledge on the boss's moves, patterns, weaknesses, and come in prepared to exploit those weaknesses. If you go in blind without leveling or investing in good weapons, it's a coin toss. What I just said is true of JRPG Bosses and Soulsborne Bosses :0)
preparation doesn't make soulsborne bosses hard. After you understand a bosses moveset the execution barrier makes it challenging. The problem with basically all turn based JRPG bosses is that the lack of time pressure makes picking the correct response in every scenario very easy to do. People are right when they say that JRPG bosses are like puzzles, they just gloss over the fact that they're very easy puzzles. It takes at most 3-5 attempts of any JRPG boss I've fought (depending mostly on faze changes and scripted moves) to figure out patterns/weaknesses etc. Most difficult fromsoft fights take significantly more attempts to figure out the first time.
Shiva's not bad at the level cap, demi fiend is the real challenge. That fight requires a fuck ton of preparation to get through. Even the Adversity cheese strat requires a good bit of prep and a lot of luck
Shiva was p tough but I felt like he was a fair challenge. I never played the DLC but I've heard Demifiend is extremely difficult because of his enrage triggers having tons of conditions
I’m starting to get to the point where I can tell which videos are WatchMojo one’s just by the Coney’s clickbait title and thumbnail. I’m starting to scare myself with how accurate it’s getting
The final boss that has given me the most difficulty was Xenoblade 2’s final boss. Part of this was due to inexperience on my first play through but mostly it is due to the boss having multiple moves that can one shot the whole party and are very hard to avoid. At best 1/3 of the party will survive. Unlike many rpgs this can’t be solved by grinding as the move Prometheus will one shot max level characters. Basically you can only live if you kill the boss with a chain attack before they use it
I'm ngl once I learned to stack orbs in the game it was over. It was very funny seeing him nearly die from one or two chain attacks. The pouch item that boosts art recovery is busted
Technically you can survive Prometheus if some of your characters have high Agility and dodge it, that's how I beat the final boss for the first time (thank god for Morag). But yh the boss is insanely hard when you don't know what to do, you'll just try over and over. Once your learn how to stack orbs efficiently it's actually trivially easy tho, it's really just a learning curve
I was lucky enough to get Kos-mos in my playthrough. One chain attack was all it took to almost drain his whole healthbar, and she full healed my party every 45 seconds or so. Best blade ever
Coney, looking up the guide to beat a turn based game is equivalent to handing the controller to your friend. The hard part IS figuring out the stuff. The hard part of action games is execution, but it's usually not that hard to even figure out what you're suppossed to do.
Coney, saying that JRPG's are easy because you just look up the solution is literally like saying puzzles can't be hard when someone else tells you how to solve the puzzle. Being given the solution is the same as someone beating the Souls boss for you and skipping you past it. Battletoads is easy when I let my big brother play for me type beat.
8:59: "Dodging is absolutely your best strategy in this fight." Not getting hit is a good strategy? In a FromSoft game no less? Naaaaaahhh ain't no way.
I find it very funny that Coney's example of a boss you can't just look up the solution to, is one that has numerous stun lock combos on CZcams that completely trivialize her.
His point was that you CAN look up a solution, but the solution requires at least some sort of execution, while looking up a JRPG boss is like looking up the answers to a 4 answer test. The test won’t murder you if you take too long to answer, or don’t answer at the correct time.
@@MainManJaggi I assume he mostly said it as “if you know how to beat the boss already” but I’m not on either side of the argument. I don’t really play turn based games, the only three I’ve played were Pokémon Ruby and Black White 1 and 2, and I just kind of used one attack through the entirety of those games. So I can’t really have my own opinion on the matter
For anyone struggling with malenia (im assuming specifically waterfowl or clone) Waterfowl: 3 solutions Easiest: use a +24 shield to block the first flurry, dodge through the second one and walk through the 3rd one Medium: craft frost pots and throw one whenever she does the windup Hard: react and run out of range of the first hit, dodge as normal Clone: run backwards and left for the first 3, dodge the rest like normal
8:50 Well, in lore, Coney isn't too far off. Marika, (who is also Radagon. Trust me I don't have time to explain) has a lot of parallels to Jesus. From the spear that pierces her before you fight Radagon, to her being crucified, she's pretty close to Jesus Christ.
@@Grxblrg5757 It's basically just a red line, we have no idea what it is or if it's even a spear to begin with, it's never mentioned anywhere else in the game and isn't brought attention to in any way.
ATB Final Fantasy games aren't really turn based. If you have battle speed set to max and are playing with "active" on rather than "wait" then the enemies don't wait to take their turn while you go through menus and there's a level of execution added to the game.
Love these videos! JRPG bosses are VERY hard. Try playing Shin Megami Tensei - if you have the wrong party in those games its possible for a standard enemy to one-shot your whole party (Know from personal experience). The bosses will absolutely destroy you if you have the wrong party.
This watchmojo session made me learn there was a Turtles in Time remake and good lord does it look bad. Also the team mascot, at least that indian man took it with pride... despite how bad everything sort of was when you add it all up.
I still haven't beaten sans, I gotta start grinding that boney bastard again! Shit's dumb hard. I also haven't beaten jevil yet but I beat spamton neo 3rd time and the harder snowgrave Version within a week. I think if I go back I could do jevil now, sans is DEFINITELY harder than both of them combined tho!
I think it's a confusiom between execution hard and puzzle hard, which you sort of touched on in that discussion. Immediate thought goes to Pokemon, like hard mode mods. Technically something like emerald kaizo isn't hard once you get the proper Pokemon or grind as you mentioned, but usually external rules are put in place (level caps, nuzlocking, etc.) which makes it difficult. But as you said, once you know the "solution", you just repeat the solution. Turn based also can include execution in some subgenres too, like the Mario and Luigi series, but it seems you weren't really focusing on those types of games.
JRPG fights are literally puzzles and situational problem solving, since there’s (usually) no execution. If you look up the answer to ANY puzzle, of course it’s gonna be easy. I agree with the (RNG doesn’t mean it’s difficult) but part of the fun of the fights is in finding the solution to the puzzle. Looking up a guide to the fight is the same as putting your Rubix Cube into an auto solver and saying “Wow, that Rubix Cube ain’t shit!”
If you look up how to beat a boss in a JRPG game then you didnt actually beat the boss on your own, you basically handed the controller to the person who made the guide and let them do the work. People who have done that shouldnt feel satisfaction for beating a boss.
Coney has the right idea but formulates his points horribly, grinding in execution heavy games compared to less execution heavy games can have the same effect. Oh boy, I sure can't beat Ornstein and Smough, let me just grind and look up strong armor, pick up Havel's and theoretically facetank them (and even if you don't agree with that example, just use any game where you can grind till you can't take damage anymore, which you can in both turn-based and action games). He might have got hung up on grinding, since that's how he started it out, should've just said that a guide can get you through a turn-based encounter, while even with a guide, you might have to put in some execution in an action game. A gamefaq guide for demon's souls mentions this really funny interaction, where you can kill the final boss in the encounter, while never drawing aggro. Shouldn't use this to judge difficulty though, since a major part of the difficulty comes from figuring out how to beat an encounter. Chat L though
nah i agree, ive played tons of jrpgs and i cant think of a single time i was like this is legit difficult due to the bosses difficulty and not just because i was stubborn and didnt want to grind or whatever
14:31 despite the gen 4 remakes being pretty much a 3D carbon copy of the DS games with PS 2 graphics, it somehow manages to be better than scarlet and violet. even though they accidently released the wrong version of the remakes with game breaking bugs like the dupe glitch and were forced to do a day one patch to update the game with the right version.
The difficulty from JRPGs is executing the optimal move for a battle. I played a Final Fantasy game where one of the bosses felt more like a rhythm game. I had to keep up damage while the boss had a form of protect and shell, then when the shields went down I go for max damage from attacks and spells. Then defend from charged attack. Then repeat the first part. It can get annoying how repetitive it was, and there were times the rhythm would go out of synch where the most possible damage could result in the party taking damage because I chose to attack instead of defend for the charge attack.
Final bosses in JRPGs can be dumb when the developers want them to be dumb. Case in point is RGG in Yakuza 7 where the if you weren't interested in grinding the game you were suddenly thrown a 15 level difference between you and an actually difficult boss. Twice. JRPG boss fights are more tests of endurance and preparation than they are execution, which I get may be more up Coney's alley but saying they aren't difficult because theres no execution is just objectively wrong. Edit: If you want difficult JRPG bosses with execution to them, play any Xenoblade game and fight the nearest unique monster above your level.
Coney you are only partially right but also final fantasy 9 is semi turn based as you have an atb bar that fills up so you have to act quickly so enemies don't keep getting attacks 🤓
I took that personally when Coney said he hated Devil May Cry 5. That hurt more than when he said he liked DMC (great content Coney! Love these videos!).
the problem with exp share isnt that its there i like it alot, its that there was an option to turn it off and now there isnt and its a pain because sometimes your team can just passively overlevel if you are training up something weak and thats dumb
Radagon is a fairly difficult boss, but he's not the hardest part of that fight I think. Elden Beast makes that fight so much harder, not cause he's a super difficult fight, but because it's so tedious to hit him and avoid getting hit by his BS magic attacks. Screw Elden Beast dude.
I’d say it’s a hard boss fight because of how it’s more of a marathon. You got Radagon and Elden Beast back to back, and Radagon is basically there to drain your heals before sending you to fight something I found easier than Radagon, but with only like 3 heals left. Bosses like Malenia and Maliketh are actual skill checks for how difficult their patterns are, but Radagon/Beast is just a slog I didn’t enjoy.
I can kinda see what Coney means about the JRPG thing. Like older JRPG's could be just a game of rock, paper, scissors where moves just counter other moves so if you just have the knowledge to use the right thing at the right time, it can be kinda easy. Newer JRPGs aren't really like that, but Coney doesn't know and doesn't give a shit. That's his right as a god-fearing American.
Hell sometimes that's giving them too much credit, Dragon Quest 1 is literally just about having bigger numbers then the boss, hitting attack until your hp is low and then healing, rince and repeat until you win. Even by the time FF9 was out they were a decent bit more complex, espcially since Coney's not even taking into account the macro progression that is so essential to the genre. The tools you prepare going into the fight are often more of the gameplay then the fight itself.
I do feel most JRPG bosses require a level cap to be challenging. In games where your party loadout can vary wildly it might take more smarts to overcome a boss (unless it requires a specific loadout to beat, then f that)
When I think of boss difficulty I think of mechanical difficulty, and also how hard the "solutions" to the attacks are to learn. In turn based games it's just the solutions, + there's rng involved, so I just can't bring myself to consider them as hard as most non turn based bosses.
Difficulty is a weird topic. I feel like there are different types of 'hard' depending on the type/genre of game you play. - JRPG's are not hard if the only obstacle is a difference in levels and grinding in an option. The main issue is that JRPGs are strategy based, but include mechanics that make it easier to overcome any misplays, such as option to grind and read opponents large attacks and etc. (can't think of any more but I'm sure there's some). - Chess vs an AI can be hard because the AI knows the best strategies and you're playing against a machine that is designed to play the best move. But if you're a chess genius (or "use a guide" w/e that means) then I guess you can find a way to outsmart it. - Arcade games (like Punch-Out) are hard because they're fast and test for quick reflexes with small windows of opportunity. - Action RPGs at higher difficulty usually just make it so that you have less health and deal less damage while enemies have more health and deal more damage, reducing your options. (Cyberpunk 2077 was such bs man, no matter how much I grinded for the best armor, I was always killed in two shots) + The games that had the most memorable difficulty system were the Metal Gear Solid games. I may be remembering it wrong, but I remember that as I heightened the difficulty, more than just item scarcity and enemy AI was changed. The enemy was better equipped armor-wise, traps were laid out, and I could have sworn that the enemy felt like an actual unit rather than many single enemies.
Coney in fact not spitting. Plus you can't usually "just look it up" because the enemy "knee buster" attack doesn't always do 3 damage out of your 10hp It does 3-6 depending on RNG. Now if you get hit and take 6 damage Do you heal, spending your limited resource that you could run out of later in the fight? Do you attack and risk getting hit by 4-6 damage in the next turn and die? Or do you use some buff that ups your chancesmin some other way and run similar risks? That's where the skill part comes in. A guide can't tell you how to make these choices most of the time.
"Bullet hells are easy because it's the same thing every time and you can just memorize what to do or follow a playthrough. You don't even have to worry about resource management or strategy like in RPGs either, so it's super easy!" -Coney
I'd say that elements of difficulty in video games can be categorized as either skill checks, or knowledge checks. I get what Coney's arguing, but I'd say he's only half right. Although I do agree with him that RNG is not "difficulty" in and of itself, it can be implemented in such a way that the player can account for and make decisions based on the different possibilities, so RNG can be considered a knowledge check to an extent.
If there's a list of hardest bosses ever - there ALWAYS be some other, who is at least 10 times harder. And "I wanna be the guy" series bosses are probably somewhere around place 8.
I mean, can’t you beat Melina with just a Mimic Tear in Eldin Ring and not even fight her personally? From soft games tend to have a lot of exploitation you can do to AI to make fights really easy, they’re just boring and require a guides or knowledge of where items are located. So I don’t really feel like that’s a good base line to no I off of.
Can't tell you how funny it was that Coney had that long fight with his chat about JRPGs and difficult final bosses, and the firestarter for all that was Necron from FF9, maybe the easiest final bosses in Final Fantasy games, at least at that point in the franchise
I don't know if it was in the WatchMojo video and Coney just skipped over it but, you can't talk about hard JRPG bosses and not have Nyx Avatar from Persona 3, it's just straight up bullshit, grind or die and hope Night Queen doesn't absolutely fuck you over out of your control.
SMT IV Minotaur boss
@@psypokeslowduck2880 i was thinking of matador from 3
@@thetaalchemy1357 Ah, true. Haven't played nocturne yet.
Necron took me a couple tries my first time playing FFIX, I was doing 9999 damage constantly, but the attack that gives you diferent status effects gave me some cruel combinations
You’re right Coney, bosses are easy when you cheat 👍
it isn't cheating if the game allows me to do it, just mad cuz I gained knowledge💯
@@howard8614 So true, if the developers didn’t intend for me to look at a guide they should have installed malware on my computer to stop me from moving to another window
@@unseenasymptote4976 if the devs didnt intend for me to look up a guide they should just come to my house and break my phone with said guide
@@unseenasymptote4976 Not sure if this is the joke or not, but I remember hearing about a Sonic fangame that actually did something similar to that. Look up Sonic Gather Battle.
@@Regal_IronKnight Thank you for directing me to that, that game is incredible to read about
I regret to inform you that Coney was NOT spitting and was in fact onto nothing.
He kept digging himself in a hole. lmao
sad Coney L
@@Broom1375yt sad but common
Heresy
coney would HATE puzzles games, he'd just look up the solution
Puzzle games are only hard until you figure out the solution
@@RangerJio2324 bosses are only hard until you beat them 🧠🧠🧠
not necessarily, he would say that they are not difficult, not that he doesn't like them
Explain Puyo Puyo, then.
I feel like Coney challenged himself to have the worst takes he could fit into one stream and you know what? Good for him. That's MY streamer. He NEVER spits.
I think the thing that makes RPG bosses hard is they make you make hard decisions. Like at base all you need to do is attack, heal, and block. But if you choose to do any of them at the wrong time you would prolly die making it hard.
It usually boils down to memorization tho, you can simply note it down
Or for the worse games, retry until you get lucky
@NANCOK You have a point. There is only a limited amount of things the boss will do as well as things you can do in response. I still think some bosses can be hard though.
@@Human-hv1qb ofc they can, but most difficulty from RPGs comes from bad design
Bosses that hit way harder than they ahould at their level
With gimmicks that are not explained or hinted at
Or simply luck based fights
the more coney doubles down when chat starts going "??????????" the more i'm inclined to believe he's objectively wrong
like if rng doesn't count as real difficulty then any fromsoft boss that doesn't do the exact same attack pattern every time isn't difficult
Coney could state an undeniable fact of the universe and if chat goes “??????” I start to doubt
Is he ever not objectively wrong?
Nah fr 💀
no coney has got a point there ngl
@@iknowwhereyoulive618 and sometimes what we think is rng isn't actually rng.
Like a boss may switch up his moves if you do x and change again if you do y but you have no idea what you're doing is causing that and it may just seem like rng to the player
The confidence is Coney’s jrpg statement is nuts to me. Physical challenges aren’t the only barrier to difficulty 😅
I am not surprised the concept of using your brain is foreign to him
Altho in most RPGs, you can just solve it by retrying until you get good rolls
@@rompevuevitos222 no amount of good rolls will save you against the true final boss of octopath traveler
The Demifiend fight in Digital Devil Saga is probably the single hardest boss fight ever designed, and it's a JRPG. You need to have your characters maxed out to even stand a chance of winning, and even then you have to follow specific strategies during the fight and you can still easily get screwed, plus it has anticheese measures where if you try and negate too much damage you'll basically be instakilled. It's honestly ridiculous and I can't think of any other boss that comes close to being that frustrating and difficult.
For one strat you don't fully max out one of your party members luck so as to have them be affected by sleep
If JRPG final bosses aren't hard because you can just grind until level cap and then beat them that way, Malenia isn't hard because you can just cheese build infini-laser her to death. Same logic.
Plus there are MANY video games where having high levels doesn't actually make you that much more powerful. A JRPG that's actually designed to be difficult means the strategy is always more important than just the raw numbers
do not expect deductive reasoning from mister coneward…
So many bosses have a sword or a spell that totally fucks them up but is gated behind grinding or long quests it is not really that different
"Why are JRPG bosses hard? its just turnbased"
"Yeah I play from software games, n-no thats different ignore my level"
Is any Souls game considered a JRPG? It isn't a turn based combat game.
JRPG is codeword for turn-based, that's what he means. Yeah in Dark Souls you can grind your shit to hell but the fact that the combat isn't turn-based and you actually have to execute whatever you wanna do makes it harder by premise
6:06 Fun facts about this guy
- The reason he's so hard boils down to Imafune, basically saying "fuck it, let's make him hard as hell"
- A legit strat to fighting him is jumping into the small yellow orbs since they hurt the least
From everything I've read on tips for this guy too, you probably won't make it unless you have *at least* one E-tank
Mega Man is designed to be difficult but holy fuck that boss was pushing it
(Although I think MMZ was overall harder)
The electric orbs don't hurt you the least, they actually do the most damage. The reason why you'd want to jump into them is so you don't get stun locked by the burning and freezing ones which can fuck up your positioning and cause you to get hit by the following attack cycle. Even then you don't want to get hit at all because wily out DPSs you and can out damage your E tanks.
Insert nerd emoji here
I know it’ll never happen but after the JRPG discussion I want to see coney do a hardcore nuzlocke of emerald kaizo
Knowing Coney, he'd probably just write it off as "not hard just rng"
That's player made challenge not just regular ass challenge. I've played a lot of JRPGs and he was spitting with the not requiring an executional barrier thing.
I would like to point out that EK is technically only difficult BECAUSE of the nuzlocke rules limiting you to encounters.
If you caught every single optimal pokemon and looked up a guide/strat for each trainer fight and boss, it would probably be pretty easy.
@@thebakery3802 Up until the late game I think this would be true, just get the best Pokémon and go to 100, but even with the best Pokémon and guides and everything the elite 4 would most likely still be quite challenging
@@thebakery3802 damage rolls cause a little variance too, even if you don't get rng screwed you can end up in steer situations
Going to court and seeing Watchmojo guy as the judge would be my 9/11
Coney: JRPG Bosses ain't hard, all you got to do is look up a guide as there is no reaction requirements.
Me: *Having flashbacks to Dreamy Bowser from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team*
I was thinking of final Cackletta from Superstar Saga. Got stuck on her for years of occasional attempts before eventually remembering grinding was a thing XD
@@Hunted0LessShirt Yeah, I've heard the horror stories about them. Just never fought her. As for grinding sure, its always an option, but its kinda like a punishment for not being good enough one could argue.
M&L games arent normal jrpgs, you know what he means lol, not sure what genre M&L games fall under tho
@@murakii They are both turn based RPGs....
And look even removing any RPG that requires anything more than menu navigation during battles, saying turn based RPGs of such cannot have difficulty is like saying that playing against a chess AI cannot be difficult. Coney is quite incorrect on his points about RPGs.
M&L are an exception you actually have to time shit in those games rather than just choose moves from a list ad nauseam
If a JRPG is done well, the emergent strategies should be based on how the way you've set up your team and how they're able to deal with the obstacle put in front of you. A good game will account for differences in play style and make difficult bosses a non-trivial task. You can always look up how to set up your team and create a working strategy but you can say that about pretty much any boss in any game.
Coney be like 'its easy if you just cheat'
"Why don't you just look it up" because that's stupid!
The argument that in a turn based RPG boss is easy because it’s not in real time kind of speaks that coney finds reacting to literally anything more difficult than something that gives you that time to think what you need to do because it’s difficult. Man needs to see emerald Kaizo and then he can tell me turn based is easy. I can’t beat Fatalis in stories consistently but you give me fatalis in world once I figured out the fight it’s another day in the office. But that might just be me it’s all opinions at the end of the day.
Pokemon is luck based...
@@rompevuevitos222 I’d still argue it’s mostly skill
@@nonagonguy6121 you can increase your odds trough skill, but victory will still always be just luck
If the game decides as much, you simply won't win
Unless you are in a situation where there is no luck, like the enemy not having debuffs and you have sure damage as well as the ability to win even if the enemy gets consecutive crits
Otherwise the outcome can only be influenced by you, not decided by you
@@rompevuevitos222 "if the game decides as much, you simply wont win" , that's pretty much all games, not just pokemon. Also most games in such shape or form have luck in them. Also, "the outcome can only be influenced by you, not decided by you" is literally the majority of most action/adventure games. Pokemon has many different and intricate strategies that would otherwise seem like it's luck (AI manipulation would be one example). Knowing when the AI is going to switch pokemon, what priority of moved the pokemon is going to make, when it's going to use potions/items to heal etc.
@@Ed95366 no, in games of skill, your skill decides the outcome, luck may make it harder or easier, but it still depends on you.
Even Binding of Isaac which has a LOT of luck involved, if you dodge well, you can win the game while even taking no damage (see: The Lost)
In Pokemon there is a ñiteral virtual dice that is thrown to decide if your action succeeds or not, your skill has no weight over that decision.
Coney back in his dumb take era
He left ???
@@nemi9217 yknow what, fair
This is him all the time. My favorite contrarian for sure
@@DeronHargrove he is the only good contrarian
I like that Coney just doesn't consider some people wouldn't want to cheat and look the solution up
Love Coney coping with Malenia. Can literally beat her with any build and any play style, simply just play better. His argument about looking up a guide is so stupid when his biggest complaint is Waterfowl Dance; literally just look up how to dodge it lmao. It is extremely consistent
Melania is the most agreed upon garbage boss in fromsoft history (ignoring gimmicks like boc) her healing from every hit alone is stupid but a move that requires you to Google how to avoid it is fundamentally bad and an embarrassment to the devs
@@Watburnt I simply figured out how to dodge it normally by looking at the move
@@Watburnt Most agreed upon weenies. The healing barely benefits her when you can stagger lock her and waterfowl is predictable without a guide. Even magic builds make her free af with just using night comet. Most garbage boss is crucible knight duo.
@@Watburnt most agreed upon by WHO? Most people really like her and enjoy the challenge. The healing doesn’t effect the fight much unless you summon spirit ashes. You don’t need to look up how to dodge waterfowl, I learned by fighting her and trying out different things. I just said that googling it is an option and Coney clearly stated that there’s no difficulty if you can just google how to beat it, which you can with her.
I came here for mind numbingly terrible takes on difficulty, and thank you coney for providing
JRPG boss difficulty comes mainly from two things, and they're _the_ _same_ things that make Soulsborne bosses difficult:
1. Boss Knowledge
2. Preparation
They're not hard if you come in with plenty of knowledge on the boss's moves, patterns, weaknesses, and come in prepared to exploit those weaknesses. If you go in blind without leveling or investing in good weapons, it's a coin toss.
What I just said is true of JRPG Bosses and Soulsborne Bosses :0)
preparation doesn't make soulsborne bosses hard. After you understand a bosses moveset the execution barrier makes it challenging. The problem with basically all turn based JRPG bosses is that the lack of time pressure makes picking the correct response in every scenario very easy to do. People are right when they say that JRPG bosses are like puzzles, they just gloss over the fact that they're very easy puzzles. It takes at most 3-5 attempts of any JRPG boss I've fought (depending mostly on faze changes and scripted moves) to figure out patterns/weaknesses etc. Most difficult fromsoft fights take significantly more attempts to figure out the first time.
“Spyrone” was a good one😂😂
Coney should play some SMT bosses and see if that changes his mind on difficulty lol
Coney: I feel like JRPG bosses can't be hard.
*Me having traumatic Flashbacks to Shiva in SMT5*
Shiva's not bad at the level cap, demi fiend is the real challenge. That fight requires a fuck ton of preparation to get through. Even the Adversity cheese strat requires a good bit of prep and a lot of luck
Shiva was p tough but I felt like he was a fair challenge. I never played the DLC but I've heard Demifiend is extremely difficult because of his enrage triggers having tons of conditions
@@Fediel I struggled a lot against Shiva and I was maxed out.
"rpg bad" mfs are the most insufferable people in gaming
Coney needs his own game. Just have one boss be the shitty genie and it's the most rng fight you have ever faced.
The Shitty Genie also decides if you get an L or not.
@@l.a.rodriguez9581 LMAO
I’m starting to get to the point where I can tell which videos are WatchMojo one’s just by the Coney’s clickbait title and thumbnail.
I’m starting to scare myself with how accurate it’s getting
So, who wants to tell Coney about Galdera from the Octopath games? Now THAT is a hard boss.
I have never heard as bad opinion from coney than his take on jrpgs. Its actually just wrong XD
The final boss that has given me the most difficulty was Xenoblade 2’s final boss. Part of this was due to inexperience on my first play through but mostly it is due to the boss having multiple moves that can one shot the whole party and are very hard to avoid. At best 1/3 of the party will survive. Unlike many rpgs this can’t be solved by grinding as the move Prometheus will one shot max level characters. Basically you can only live if you kill the boss with a chain attack before they use it
Yeah that boss goes crazy
I'm ngl once I learned to stack orbs in the game it was over. It was very funny seeing him nearly die from one or two chain attacks. The pouch item that boosts art recovery is busted
Technically you can survive Prometheus if some of your characters have high Agility and dodge it, that's how I beat the final boss for the first time (thank god for Morag). But yh the boss is insanely hard when you don't know what to do, you'll just try over and over.
Once your learn how to stack orbs efficiently it's actually trivially easy tho, it's really just a learning curve
I was lucky enough to get Kos-mos in my playthrough. One chain attack was all it took to almost drain his whole healthbar, and she full healed my party every 45 seconds or so. Best blade ever
That just sounds like cheap design
Coney, looking up the guide to beat a turn based game is equivalent to handing the controller to your friend. The hard part IS figuring out the stuff. The hard part of action games is execution, but it's usually not that hard to even figure out what you're suppossed to do.
Coney, saying that JRPG's are easy because you just look up the solution is literally like saying puzzles can't be hard when someone else tells you how to solve the puzzle. Being given the solution is the same as someone beating the Souls boss for you and skipping you past it. Battletoads is easy when I let my big brother play for me type beat.
8:59: "Dodging is absolutely your best strategy in this fight."
Not getting hit is a good strategy? In a FromSoft game no less? Naaaaaahhh ain't no way.
I find it very funny that Coney's example of a boss you can't just look up the solution to, is one that has numerous stun lock combos on CZcams that completely trivialize her.
His point was that you CAN look up a solution, but the solution requires at least some sort of execution, while looking up a JRPG boss is like looking up the answers to a 4 answer test.
The test won’t murder you if you take too long to answer, or don’t answer at the correct time.
@@DizzyTrendermen If you gotta look up a solution to a boss, it's difficult.
@@MainManJaggi I assume he mostly said it as “if you know how to beat the boss already” but I’m not on either side of the argument. I don’t really play turn based games, the only three I’ve played were Pokémon Ruby and Black White 1 and 2, and I just kind of used one attack through the entirety of those games. So I can’t really have my own opinion on the matter
Hope they talk about pinwheel
Covetous Demon also, we all know he's the hardest boss in ds2
For anyone struggling with malenia (im assuming specifically waterfowl or clone)
Waterfowl: 3 solutions
Easiest: use a +24 shield to block the first flurry, dodge through the second one and walk through the 3rd one
Medium: craft frost pots and throw one whenever she does the windup
Hard: react and run out of range of the first hit, dodge as normal
Clone: run backwards and left for the first 3, dodge the rest like normal
Coney saying turn based boss battles aren't hard and then trying to flex his win against a turn based boss battle in the same mojo video ICANT
The Sans fight took me 9 hours. The Jevil fight took me 40 minutes. I think Sans was harder for me.
“JRPG bosses aren’t hard”
Boss Snurp: “Oh really?”
I guess you can think of JRPG bosses as a puzzle? Sure, the execution isn't demanding, but that doesn't mean puzzles can't be hard.
8:50 Well, in lore, Coney isn't too far off. Marika, (who is also Radagon. Trust me I don't have time to explain) has a lot of parallels to Jesus. From the spear that pierces her before you fight Radagon, to her being crucified, she's pretty close to Jesus Christ.
When does Marika get pierced with a spear? I don't remember that at all.
@@Bone8380 In the opening of the fight, when you first enter the Erdtree, she's peirced with a black and red spear
@@Grxblrg5757 It's basically just a red line, we have no idea what it is or if it's even a spear to begin with, it's never mentioned anywhere else in the game and isn't brought attention to in any way.
@@Bone8380 Well, I just called it a spear because it enters Marika in the same position that Jesus was peirced, and looks very sharp.
“It is hard until you figure out the solution”
…does he understand the concept of a puzzle?
ATB Final Fantasy games aren't really turn based. If you have battle speed set to max and are playing with "active" on rather than "wait" then the enemies don't wait to take their turn while you go through menus and there's a level of execution added to the game.
Coney that's like saying a puzzle can't be hard because you can look up a guide.
His point is that for some games following a guide is easier if there isn't also a mechanical depth to master
Coney the type of guy to shit on Undertale and still use Sans as clickbait
coney literally played undertale day 1 and has praised it on several occasions
@@samforpanek8401 my brother in christ, I do believe you have been baited
Seymour and Yunalesca from FFX destroyed me when I was younger. Some of the hardest bosses I’ve ever fought still to this day 😭
Love the vids Coney! When's the next react wars?
Love these videos! JRPG bosses are VERY hard. Try playing Shin Megami Tensei - if you have the wrong party in those games its possible for a standard enemy to one-shot your whole party (Know from personal experience). The bosses will absolutely destroy you if you have the wrong party.
This watchmojo session made me learn there was a Turtles in Time remake and good lord does it look bad.
Also the team mascot, at least that indian man took it with pride... despite how bad everything sort of was when you add it all up.
I still haven't beaten sans, I gotta start grinding that boney bastard again! Shit's dumb hard. I also haven't beaten jevil yet but I beat spamton neo 3rd time and the harder snowgrave Version within a week. I think if I go back I could do jevil now, sans is DEFINITELY harder than both of them combined tho!
I think it's a confusiom between execution hard and puzzle hard, which you sort of touched on in that discussion.
Immediate thought goes to Pokemon, like hard mode mods. Technically something like emerald kaizo isn't hard once you get the proper Pokemon or grind as you mentioned, but usually external rules are put in place (level caps, nuzlocking, etc.) which makes it difficult. But as you said, once you know the "solution", you just repeat the solution.
Turn based also can include execution in some subgenres too, like the Mario and Luigi series, but it seems you weren't really focusing on those types of games.
JRPG fights are literally puzzles and situational problem solving, since there’s (usually) no execution.
If you look up the answer to ANY puzzle, of course it’s gonna be easy.
I agree with the (RNG doesn’t mean it’s difficult) but part of the fun of the fights is in finding the solution to the puzzle.
Looking up a guide to the fight is the same as putting your Rubix Cube into an auto solver and saying “Wow, that Rubix Cube ain’t shit!”
JRPG fights are uniformly pretty easy puzzles. None of the ones (that I've played) have hard fights
Coneys cackling at mojo agreeing with him has me dying
If you look up how to beat a boss in a JRPG game then you didnt actually beat the boss on your own, you basically handed the controller to the person who made the guide and let them do the work. People who have done that shouldnt feel satisfaction for beating a boss.
Coney has the right idea but formulates his points horribly, grinding in execution heavy games compared to less execution heavy games can have the same effect. Oh boy, I sure can't beat Ornstein and Smough, let me just grind and look up strong armor, pick up Havel's and theoretically facetank them (and even if you don't agree with that example, just use any game where you can grind till you can't take damage anymore, which you can in both turn-based and action games). He might have got hung up on grinding, since that's how he started it out, should've just said that a guide can get you through a turn-based encounter, while even with a guide, you might have to put in some execution in an action game. A gamefaq guide for demon's souls mentions this really funny interaction, where you can kill the final boss in the encounter, while never drawing aggro. Shouldn't use this to judge difficulty though, since a major part of the difficulty comes from figuring out how to beat an encounter.
Chat L though
nah i agree, ive played tons of jrpgs and i cant think of a single time i was like this is legit difficult due to the bosses difficulty and not just because i was stubborn and didnt want to grind or whatever
After hearing it in countless videos.... Whats the song that plays right at the beginning of the video? Anyone knows?
What’s the song that plays at the beginning of the video
14:31 despite the gen 4 remakes being pretty much a 3D carbon copy of the DS games with PS 2 graphics, it somehow manages to be better than scarlet and violet. even though they accidently released the wrong version of the remakes with game breaking bugs like the dupe glitch and were forced to do a day one patch to update the game with the right version.
The difficulty from JRPGs is executing the optimal move for a battle. I played a Final Fantasy game where one of the bosses felt more like a rhythm game. I had to keep up damage while the boss had a form of protect and shell, then when the shields went down I go for max damage from attacks and spells. Then defend from charged attack. Then repeat the first part. It can get annoying how repetitive it was, and there were times the rhythm would go out of synch where the most possible damage could result in the party taking damage because I chose to attack instead of defend for the charge attack.
Spyrone was gold can't believe you banned that guy
The chat’s absolute confusion at Coney doubling down on his awful JRPG take instead of just admitting he’s wrong was hilarious
Final bosses in JRPGs can be dumb when the developers want them to be dumb. Case in point is RGG in Yakuza 7 where the if you weren't interested in grinding the game you were suddenly thrown a 15 level difference between you and an actually difficult boss.
Twice.
JRPG boss fights are more tests of endurance and preparation than they are execution, which I get may be more up Coney's alley but saying they aren't difficult because theres no execution is just objectively wrong.
Edit: If you want difficult JRPG bosses with execution to them, play any Xenoblade game and fight the nearest unique monster above your level.
Coney you are only partially right but also final fantasy 9 is semi turn based as you have an atb bar that fills up so you have to act quickly so enemies don't keep getting attacks 🤓
I took that personally when Coney said he hated Devil May Cry 5. That hurt more than when he said he liked DMC (great content Coney! Love these videos!).
the problem with exp share isnt that its there i like it alot, its that there was an option to turn it off and now there isnt and its a pain because sometimes your team can just passively overlevel if you are training up something weak and thats dumb
At this point they should just remove levels
They literally just mean "grind more"
Radagon is a fairly difficult boss, but he's not the hardest part of that fight I think. Elden Beast makes that fight so much harder, not cause he's a super difficult fight, but because it's so tedious to hit him and avoid getting hit by his BS magic attacks. Screw Elden Beast dude.
I’d say it’s a hard boss fight because of how it’s more of a marathon. You got Radagon and Elden Beast back to back, and Radagon is basically there to drain your heals before sending you to fight something I found easier than Radagon, but with only like 3 heals left. Bosses like Malenia and Maliketh are actual skill checks for how difficult their patterns are, but Radagon/Beast is just a slog I didn’t enjoy.
"I've beaten every other boss from other FromSoft games"
I refuse to believe you've beaten Nineball.
I can kinda see what Coney means about the JRPG thing. Like older JRPG's could be just a game of rock, paper, scissors where moves just counter other moves so if you just have the knowledge to use the right thing at the right time, it can be kinda easy.
Newer JRPGs aren't really like that, but Coney doesn't know and doesn't give a shit. That's his right as a god-fearing American.
Hell sometimes that's giving them too much credit, Dragon Quest 1 is literally just about having bigger numbers then the boss, hitting attack until your hp is low and then healing, rince and repeat until you win.
Even by the time FF9 was out they were a decent bit more complex, espcially since Coney's not even taking into account the macro progression that is so essential to the genre. The tools you prepare going into the fight are often more of the gameplay then the fight itself.
I do feel most JRPG bosses require a level cap to be challenging. In games where your party loadout can vary wildly it might take more smarts to overcome a boss (unless it requires a specific loadout to beat, then f that)
“Spyrone” is fucking iconic fym
When I think of boss difficulty I think of mechanical difficulty, and also how hard the "solutions" to the attacks are to learn. In turn based games it's just the solutions, + there's rng involved, so I just can't bring myself to consider them as hard as most non turn based bosses.
"I thought the final boss was going to be Jesus!" is an excellent quote
lmao I poked Maliketh in the butt with the beast dagger you find at the bottom of the ledge in Caelid on my first playthrough and he's the coolest
Difficulty is a weird topic. I feel like there are different types of 'hard' depending on the type/genre of game you play.
- JRPG's are not hard if the only obstacle is a difference in levels and grinding in an option. The main issue is that JRPGs are strategy based, but include mechanics that make it easier to overcome any misplays, such as option to grind and read opponents large attacks and etc. (can't think of any more but I'm sure there's some).
- Chess vs an AI can be hard because the AI knows the best strategies and you're playing against a machine that is designed to play the best move. But if you're a chess genius (or "use a guide" w/e that means) then I guess you can find a way to outsmart it.
- Arcade games (like Punch-Out) are hard because they're fast and test for quick reflexes with small windows of opportunity.
- Action RPGs at higher difficulty usually just make it so that you have less health and deal less damage while enemies have more health and deal more damage, reducing your options. (Cyberpunk 2077 was such bs man, no matter how much I grinded for the best armor, I was always killed in two shots)
+ The games that had the most memorable difficulty system were the Metal Gear Solid games. I may be remembering it wrong, but I remember that as I heightened the difficulty, more than just item scarcity and enemy AI was changed. The enemy was better equipped armor-wise, traps were laid out, and I could have sworn that the enemy felt like an actual unit rather than many single enemies.
Idea for that game: The final boss appears to be Jesus, but He refuses to fight you and the two of you curbstomp Satan instead
The moral of this story is my Braves should really probably change their name. THREE MASCOTS ON THE LIST?!
"I THOUGHT THE FINAL BOSS WAS GONNA BE *JESUS*"
Coney in fact not spitting.
Plus you can't usually "just look it up" because the enemy "knee buster" attack doesn't always do 3 damage out of your 10hp
It does 3-6 depending on RNG.
Now if you get hit and take 6 damage
Do you heal, spending your limited resource that you could run out of later in the fight?
Do you attack and risk getting hit by 4-6 damage in the next turn and die? Or do you use some buff that ups your chancesmin some other way and run similar risks?
That's where the skill part comes in. A guide can't tell you how to make these choices most of the time.
The Minotaur boss from SMT4 pushed my shit in for hours. The music absolutely slapped though.
Unban the "spyrone" chatter
JRPG bosses are puzzles. There is difficulty in puzzles, it’s just a different type of difficulty than you see from many other genres of game
"Bullet hells are easy because it's the same thing every time and you can just memorize what to do or follow a playthrough. You don't even have to worry about resource management or strategy like in RPGs either, so it's super easy!" -Coney
Coney was spitting for Persona specifically, or moreso the SMT franchise in general
“They’re all persona fans”
And then there’s me, who hasn’t played persona once in my life
Though they are random, being prepared to deal with the random is the skill.
Coney: "Strategy games are stupid because you can look up a guide"
I'd say that elements of difficulty in video games can be categorized as either skill checks, or knowledge checks. I get what Coney's arguing, but I'd say he's only half right. Although I do agree with him that RNG is not "difficulty" in and of itself, it can be implemented in such a way that the player can account for and make decisions based on the different possibilities, so RNG can be considered a knowledge check to an extent.
4:10 rare coney cookin moment. Who's the contrarian NOW chat?
Genius move on Coney's part to make a dumb take to increase comment engagement on CZcams
If there's a list of hardest bosses ever - there ALWAYS be some other, who is at least 10 times harder.
And "I wanna be the guy" series bosses are probably somewhere around place 8.
Obviously coney didn’t fight Cynthia as a child
I mean, can’t you beat Melina with just a Mimic Tear in Eldin Ring and not even fight her personally? From soft games tend to have a lot of exploitation you can do to AI to make fights really easy, they’re just boring and require a guides or knowledge of where items are located. So I don’t really feel like that’s a good base line to no I off of.
for some reason Coney knowing about slamball makes him more cultured in my eyes
there's no way that they said Armstrong was a hard boss??? no damage vs him was so unbelievably easy
Coney when he looks up the solution to a puzzle and calls the puzzle easy as a result
Can’t stop thinking about Spyrone now