Tour de France 2023 Stage 17 - Fine, I'll Talk about Doping
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
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If know you me, you know that I have a complicated relationship with pro cycling, where I gave it the best years of my life, it stabbed me in the back and shoved me out in my prime, but then launched me to a better life than I ever could have dreamed of. To be honest (other than when someone texted me that a friend was going to win the stage) I haven’t watched a bike race since 2016. I was always turned off by some doper in the pack or the commentary booth, but folks liked the podcast series, and a ton of you asked me to keep it going during the Tour. Maybe this will be healthy for me.
I have done hundreds of pro races, I know these guys and the teams and a lot of what’s going on and I have plenty of inside squawk and gossip. I’ll give you the summary, tell you what I’m seeing that might be a little different from what they’re saying on TV, but mostly I’m looking to enjoy it together.
Yesterday was a time trial that ended with a big margin of victory, and today we saw another big gap in the mountains. All of the comments lately have been asking about doping, so I figure this is a good chance to get into it before we do the regular stage update.
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If everyone cheats is it really cheating or just a professional wrestling style sport? EPO is just vitamins for the pros
“Everyone is cheating” is a false narrative that Lance has been pushing for years. It’s never been true. Don’t fall for it.
@@worstretirementever Exactly. The Early-2000's were not exactly a level playing field in doping, which is what the premise of "everyone was doping" suggests. Some teams, they were literally guessing at what they were doing. Then you had Lance, who had the Dr Frankenstein of Doping under an exclusive contract. Comparing Dr. Ferrari to Dr. Fuentes is like comparing Apples to Sausages.
These doping doctors weren't exactly submitting peer reviewed research to prestigious sports medicine journals that was then shared among themselves so that everyone was doing the best practice in terms of doping.
Can SOMEONE do a deep dive on MECHANICAL doping. THIS is the “best” type of doping. Easily hid among all the electronic gadget, e-shifters, etc. Squeeky clean rider, 30 extra watts at the push of a button. UCI doing, umm, nothing again, at all, not even trying. There were some FUNKY bike wheels spinning away during crashes at Paris-Roubaix. Go back, look at some of them. Wheels dont spin like that…..
@@worstretirementeverback then, everyone who was winning was.
The guy that finished in the middle, who was clean. That's the guy I feel sorry for, the dude we've neve heard of
@@jonshomo1167 Here's your deep dive: Can't get away with it. Bikes are checked regularly, x-ray an all. Also a cycling team is a very big organization. You bet people know if something fishy is up and it's impossible to keep that from leaking out, which is a deterrent in itself. If you keep a 'special bike', it'll be noticed that for example after a stage the mechanic runs away with it to a van or something out of the ordinary like that. Cycling is a public sport - everyone is watching and knows the patterns.
In the end, it's incredibly risky. Crashes happen a lot and bikes are caught up with it as well. You can see broken frames a few times during the tour. What would happen if you crash and ripped of bar tape or a broken frame exposes something previously hidden?
Also always keep in mind that bikes aren't made of metal tubes anymore. If you want to do mechanical doping, it's probable you'll need manufacturer cooperation or risk compromising the structural integrity of the bike. This will never happen.
I am sure no rider or team will take all these risks involved.
Phil’s arms look like aero handlebars
Jonas is the picture come to life of a man who has dedicated his entire season to winning this Tour. Every race he has done this season he was asked about winning stages and his answer was always that his focus was the TdF. Whatever needed to happen to get his form to peak for this race is the only thing he focused on. The man is very focused and determined and you see it every race at the start line, during the race, the cool down, in any training video TJV puts out. He also rides like he has both the confidence to win but also something to prove.
As for Pogacar, he said he didn't eat enough today and what he did eat just sat in his stomach and his legs gave out. Today's time gap between Pogacar and Vingegaard has as much to do with Tadej bonking as it does Jonas being the stronger rider. It's not rocket science but people want to point fingers.
😂
No it's not rocket science, it's medical science. 💉
Losers always point fingers. Losers love conspiracy theories. Losers are pathetic.
How cute... . You actually believe that....
@@swal0943 Who's gullible? Those that simply look at current facts, or those that try to connect dots that might not even be there? The lack of knowledge of pro cycling shows.
Doping can't help you zoom the corners and downhills. The bike handling on the TT by Jonas was amazing
Oh yeah, he beat the 2nd place man by 1:38 and the 3rd by 2:51 because he was 'zooming' the corners and downhills. LOL.
@@davd1986 truth!
He could’ve been motor doping with a power pack inside that hollow disc wheel.
@@davd1986 It's called descending and cornering, they are skills. You should learn something about the sport some day.
@@Up2L842moroyou guys are ridiculous 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Vingegaard said around a week ago to the Danish media, that this stage and perhaps also to a lesser extend stage 16 would be decisive of who was going to win the tour. It would seem that he was right. According to a Danish TV expert/former tour rider who was out there himself to get a "feel" of stage 16. he got passed several times by Jonas, who was out there doing the most difficult parts more than once, to be even more prepared. Pogacar on the other hand spend most of that day resting, and he has done no other time-trials this year, to prepare for this, unlike Jonas.
Jonas is simply vastly more focused, better prepared and taking advantage of his lower weight and having refined his technique, leaving Pog's bike change and brute force behind.
Yeah, Pogacar spent the rest day doing backflips.
And on better sauce...💉
Forget the 5% above Pog, how about 10% above the rest of the field of world class riders? Everyone focuses, everyone prepares, the gap is simply too large to explain away with 'he wanted it more' narratives.
Simon Yates is a good comparison, same weight, he said he had a near perfect TT, he is in his best shape and is 3minutes back in a 32minute TT.
@@ollyole4560 Foolish mistake to compare Yates to Vingegaard
@oleandersen5634 How so?
I could take any GC rider that performed well in that TT of similar weight to Jonas. They would all be within a few % of Yates, because that's the competitive nature of elite sport.
yeah, I thought it was almost inevitable seeing how often Tadej had to turn himself inside out just to get a couple seconds, while Jonas was wheelsucking, doing 2/3rds the power in those finishing straights and losing almost no time at all. This tour was two weeks of that track event where they keep doing trackstands and try to bait each other into going first and providing a draft. Fool me once, etc. Jumbo Visma were also rock solid, it felt like they were taking turns being the last guy to help Jonas up the climbs.
Thanks. A favorite moment today was the fan offering a struggling rider a pizza. There hasn't been a lot of good news with fan interaction lately, but I thought bringing out a pizza was cool. And someone on the mountain held a sign reading "You're Nuts." For the actual race, I'm wondering what Alaphilippe is doing. I've seen him go on early breaks, do amazing descents, then go back. Wouldn't it be better if he did that later in the stages?
You’re right I should have mentioned the pizza
@@worstretirementeverI have a question regarding the pizza. Are the riders allowed from the team to theoretically take a piece of it? I mean it could be prepared with some stuff that would produce a positiv PED test. Just curios, I wouldn’t take a piece because I wouldn’t feel safe.
I think the rider was Australian Ben O'Connor
Thanks for a great and nuanced take Phil. What bugs me is that everyone just point at the fastest guy and yells ‘doping!’ in a knee jerk reaction. If Pogi is the fastest, he gets the flak. Now it’s Jonas. At least try to get the whole picture, all the other factors leading up to the difference on the road or it’s just silly. I’m glad you did.
Yeah, too much pinpointing with no critical thought. Statistically, the two performances on the TT were very close. Take out Tadej's poor decision making with the bike switch and it is even closer. If there is doping going on now there are lots of willful blind eyes being turned. We as the public don't really get any insight into modern doping controls. I can't remember it even being mentioned this year. To indict any rider is to indict the UCI and organizers. Didn't we learn anything from the other guy's situation?
I think today's stage makes Vingegaard dominance look less suspicious, We just assumed Pogi rode the best he could, and I believe if he would there would be nowhere near such a difference, but he was not even close, and he showed it again today. Looking back at sunday it's where he started to lose it.
tbh I think it's the time gap. nobody called doping last year, or in 2020 for example
@@trapeznikpog caught rodriguez… and rodriguez finished 12th, just 45 seconds behind 3rd placed van aert. i think pog did good in tt
The overall speeds of the stages, to me, is more suspicious. It’s similar to what Lemond said in the early ‘90s. Something along the lines of suddenly everybody got way faster, and he knew it was all over.
As a cyclist that enjoys the sport, I follow several veteran/retired cyclist channels. And then this guy pops into my recs. I watched this and then I watched some others. This guy has definitely walked the walk. Which allows him to talk the talk. I look forward to future posts.
Dude, thanks for that perspective. It's hard sometimes being a fan and living and dying with these athletes and then having the doubt creep in. Your take made me feel better. Lol, too much feels
You mention a few points I consider key about the modern era. First, we are not seeing "donkies" mix it up with the climbers and all-rounders. That was common in the super doping era. Secondly, we are seeing the big impact of large team budgets. The big teams have the strongest riders, the best equipment, the most focused training, the best food and logistics etc. The level of professionalism is very impressive.
Name one donkey who ever won
@@glywnniswells9480Froome, Riis, Cobo,
😂
@@DavidStacey-tx7on That's three, can't you count 😁
What are you talking about? LaPorte, VanHooydunk, VanBaarle is the exact equivalent of Yates, Hincapie and Eckkmov - non-climbers burying world class climbers on the first two mountains and the initial ramparts of a Cat1/Cat1/HC early 2000x stage.
Just had the conversation with my family where they ask: "Is it safe to fall in love with The Grand Tours again or will we have our hearts broken by finding out they are doping?!?!" 😂
Should also mention that Tagej didn’t have a hyper focus on Le Tour throughout the season like Jonas. Tadej wanted to win every 1 day race he entered and that’s just a different effort. Jonas I believe only entered in stage races and had 1 primary focus. I’m curious if Tadej will change his approach or if the hand injury affected way more than he let on and just does the same thing but without getting injured of course.
Jonas is 6kg lighter than the Pog...that's a lot. A lot of people bet on Pog winning this tour who have had their dreams/hopes dashed by a very well drilled Jonas & Team. The Pog's dominance is in question and Jonas being 26yo will only get stronger next year.
6kg is definitely alot
Yes a real sense, Poga's weight really eats him up in climbs & long term competition!
And if I read right, Jonas did 7.8 watts/kilo in the TT.... unreal
@@stevestewart-sturges2159 He certainly peaked 7.8 watts/kg on some parts, but no, on average it would not even have been 6.8.
@@UbzUnclemax Thank you for that, mate! Still, a unbelievable performance, amazing numbers..
And today (stage 18)...showed the Jumbo tactic has worked, Pog blew up and Jonas didn't to do anything but ride his race
You're a lot easier to listen to than Horner, that's for sure. Thanks for an honest assessment.
This is the best post race content each day Phil! Thank you for keeping it short & sweet. If I'm already watching a stage for 3 hours, a 40-minute (or 1 hour plus) recap is WAY too much
GCN showed a side-by-side clip of Jonas and Tadej on the descent during the TT. Jonas was in the aero-bars and pedaling. Tadej was on the hoods, coasting. That, plus the bike change (with Jonas again riding up the climb in the aero-bars) makes the time gap much more believable.
not a 1:38 time gap it doesn't. 20-30 seconds? Okay I'd understand. But 1:38? It's just too much
@@user-vt4hd8hb4vjust in comparison vingegaard in some turns gained 3 seconds on descent in turns alone, if he can gain that much with a simple turn it’s very believable but still impressive 1:38, its not common but with those info you can understand it
yeah, cause he was resting
All teams will focus on a single rider in the group and the entire strategy will be about how the team can support that rider.
Jumbo knew from the beginning that Pogi would be the most dangerous competitor to their plans of getting Jonas on the podium as winner again. However, Jumbo also knew from the beginning that Pogi did not turn up to start in TdF with the absolutely best preparations due to his earlier hand injury.
According to some of the other Danish riders in the peleton, Jonas spent his rest day Monday to go for a spin and actually walk up and down the various corners on the TT route to figure out and memorize all the corners because he knew he could win a lot of time if he could go to the limit there.
All of that combined with the bike change Pogi made, the time difference between Pogi and Jonas makes better sense.
Unfortunately, Pogi burned out at Stage 17. It would have been wonderful if he could have given Jonas a run for the money, but Pogi has been slowly worn down by Jumbo all the time. I am still convinced that the overall best rider is still Pogi but given his hand injury this year, there was always doubt about if his preparations for TdF were optimal and this is literally the first time Pogi has ever burned out like this so I guess the answer to whether he was as well prepared for Tdf as he could be is a clear no.
It did not help either that he actually had a little crash within the first 20 km of Stage 17.
Pogi and Jonas are still in the same group of riders who are incredibly humble and never has a bad word about anyone. That's what makes them so likeable. I hope Pogi can come back next year.
Actually Pogacar had a similar collapse last year when he lost minutes on a 3 km stretch.
@@oleandersen5634last year he had now team, this year combine injury with the confident attitude he had with the team and he wore out in week 3, if he sorts out the strategy and doesnt injure himself before i think he can beat jonas next year
I just tune in to watch your dog live his best life.
more dog, less Phil. 🤣🤣.
Seems like a dog-whistle to me
4:30 for Creature Closeup
As soon as I saw that Tadej had crashed I knew there was trouble and it was surreal to see him fall off the pack. Even Jonas did a double take just to make sure that Tadej wasn’t there. Honestly, it was a sad day. This year, Tadej had a team that lasted through till the last week as opposed to disintegrating in the first 2.
Sad day.
Maybe its that the porlbem, cuz by having a team he could attack more but ended up not having enough energy on week 3
Also import to mention, is that Pogacar said in an interview after the race that "all food stayed in my stomach, nothing reach the legs." and "this was probably my worst day on the bike ever". This was in interviews by the Dutch sports reporters. So it wasn't Vingegaard being that much better (Bilbao actually gapped him towards the finish line), as it was Pogacar having a really bad day. Yates was the fastest guy up the hill that day by the way. He only fell seconds short of the win. It seems like an honest hard day to me.
I this is what “wearing another contender down” looks like. His body stopped being able to generate despite having the resources. And y’know… he did really well, just not for Tadej. He’ll continue to recover properly from his injury… and he still a wonderful presence but has a racer and as a human being in his interviews - a far more decent human-being than I ever was at his age.
Phil! I just finished reading "Draft Animals" and enjoyed it immensely. I didn't know you were doing stage breakdowns until YT recommended your channel. I'm going to watch this one and the others now.
thank you!
I am half way through the audiobook. It is great!
Go read Pro Cycling on $10 a Day, next. Equally fantastic!!!
_Makes you wonder how Google/YT knew you were reading the book...._
Following the Danish newspaper, Vingegaard and Pogacar have been tested 4 times in the last 48 hours before stage 17, and even right before stage 17. Among that they were tested for blood doping. And Vingegaard told that he wouldn’t take anything that he couldn’t give to he’s daughter…. Vingegaard and Jumbo Visma support all kind of tests even right before a race…
... and you don't think Big Pharma came out with anything new in the last 40 years???
Armstrong never tested positive.
I would prefer ir he just said he didn't doped. Leave the children out of it.
The best way to lie is by telling a truth...
@@the_rzhhe actuall did twice didn‘t he? He just claimed he never did. I might be wrong, it has been a while since I read all the articles and watched the documentaries
Jonas's rest day started on stage 15. Was all part of a plan. A very smart plan. Smart, talented team, lots of money, and an all consuming desire to win, period!
I agree there should be no time bonus at tops of climbs (except maybe at a mountaintop stage finish) . The competition at the top or on the way to the top of a hard climb ( other than at the stage finish) is to attack and open a gap and maybe drop or crack someone, not to beat your opponent to a line by a photo finish or a bikelength where your opponent has no problem staying with you.
Appreciate the insight, Phil.
In the age of Strava, certainly it would be easy to predict what somebody should roughly do. Moreover, it would be pretty easy for a team to rat out another rider since all the teams have instant data. That’s the evidence against doping now. Agreed, it’s sort of “negative evidence” but it wasn’t around in the Armstrong days.
Thanks for doing this
As a fan of the sport it looks suspicious that he could take so much time against a strong tt ride by Pogo in only 22km. Nice to finally get an x pro actually talking about it
Bravo. I'm stunned no-one else is exercising some scrutiny here.. "Consensus: Being conned of one's senses..". The world continues.. I want eyes on this sordid topic. Ok, Phil.
To me as a fan it didn't look suspicious since the visible difference between Pogacar and Vingegaard was so big.
Pogacar drove much safer and Vingegaard looked as if he and the bike were made together.
That combined with a clearly poorly chosen bike swap explained a lot.
@@Minifliek fair enough
... they would NEVER tell you anything. And like he would know???
Jumbo Visma has $$$. But all things being equal they also have a great team plan, they stick to it, and they have the depth of talent to complete the plan.
The fact is that we can't know if guys are doping. But it is clear that top riders are still trying to get every advantage possible. Simon Yates tested positive for terbutaline a few years ago. Nairo was taking tramadol last year. Froome tested positive for salbutamol. It wouldn't shock me in the least if it came out that riders were taking banned substances in this tour. Millions of dollars are on the line.
If they are NEW ... they wouldn't be banned yet. Everybody thinks that BIG PHARMA hasn't advanced in the last 40 years!!!
Vingegaard was prepared. He knew evey corner and every difficulties. Podi rode into this like an amateur. Podi lost two seconds in the first 17 seconds of the race. Podi were frightened and did not take any chances. I kinda blame this on his crash. Jonas did make a ride that will be go into the schoolbooks of the greatest TT ever. Other riders will copy him
When Jonas was preparing his TT on the rest day Pogacar was doing back flips in the pool. There was a massive difference of mindset and later a massive gap in time.
Who is Podi?
But you can't say that about all the riders that nearly finished 4 mins behind him. The best riders in the world were made to look like amateurs.
@@cornishalps9870 all the other are junior riders compared to Jonas and pogi… they have showed that for 3 years now
@@cornishalps9870look at the statistics first. Is pello bilbao or Simon Yates tt specialists? No. Previously they have, in Grand tours, lost even more time pr km than this. And they where 4&5. This tt required power and mountain capabilities. Well prepared riders that masters the tt, because it was also very technical, on the decents. Everything was right on Vingegaards strengths. It was too "hilly" for the normal tt favorits, but not for Vingegaard. Pog lost it, due to the bike change, the decents and bad preparation.
....also Jonas has said many times he gets better the longer the race goes on. hes shown that in the past and in this tour.
4:27 thank you for the focus on the pupper. 100-% the highlight of the vid 😊😊
She’s sick of the doping talk as well
When you see the same person dominating 3 areas from Flat's, TT's and Climbing that should be setting off alarm bell's. UCI needs to ban the use of Hypoxic chambers as this is clearly medically assisted doping and it is having a massive impact on performances.
If we're talking about doping, like the title suggests, then it's still possible to blood dope and not get caught. Tyler and Floyd explained it pretty well. The units of blood are taken out months in advance, then centrifuged to separate the red blood cells from the plasma. The plasma can then be used later to dilute the blood and decrease hematocrit. Then those packed red blood cells are carefully and quickly frozen to extend their life. If not frozen, then the packed red blood cells only last about 4 weeks before they become toxic. If the freezing process isn't done right, then the packed RBC's can also become toxic. Then EPO is administered via micro dose directly into the vein, not subcutaneously, because the half life of EPO in the vein is only about 12 hours, which disables detection. The micro dose of EPO will help bring their red blood cells back up to normal after a unit of blood has been extracted. The athletes go to altitude camp during the micro dosing phases, which also helps raise natural EPO levels. This masks the use of EPO micro dosing, and also helps to create reticulocytes (new red blood cells). Then on top of all that, they repeat this process, over and over, which helps hide the age of the previously extracted, then re-infused, red blood cells. The remaining plasma is re-injected, as needed, to hide the elevated hematocrit. From what I've gathered, this whole process is good enough to evade detection, even with the bio-passport.
Yes because nothing happened in anti-doping field since 2005. What an absolutely retarded take.
Doping isn't the only possible issue. I've heard ex-pros talk about electric motors and the suspicious number of bike changes they see.
all the performance data, training plans, bike xrays needs to be published/accessible for public to get rid of conspiracy theories, innuendos , etc.
Respectfully it wouldn’t help. Take a look at my comments where I do 400 watts and idiots are calling me a doper. You’re overestimating the ability of folks to analyze any of that
here we go Michel Hessmann suspended by Jumbo-Visma following anti-doping positive
Cleanest youtube cyclist sums up the cleanest tour de france to date 🎉
Did you forget to mention the traffic jam on the Col de la Loze? The tour should have vehicles that don’t lose traction when they’re forced to come to a complete stop.
Thanks Phil I now feel better about what I watched yesterday.
And I think today's stage showed there was something going on yesterday in the TT too. If anything, it further validates yesterday's result.
Pogacar has been winning for the last 3 years and no one ever mentioned doping. Now that Jonas is winning all of the Pogacar fans start rumors of Jonas doping. A lot of bias.
Pog was stuffed on the Mont Blanc stage, he looked rooted when he tried to jump away and sat back down almost straight away, the camera cut to his face and his eyes, nothing in the tank, Jonas gave him a bit of stick trying to out sprint him at the line, probably just a who's your daddy thing , but I knew it was over then barring a miracle recovery on the rest day, but we saw how that urned out. UAE didn't have the team, JV built The Who;e team around Jonas, on his strengths and weaknesses, and they didn't let hm down. Wout deserves a medal for his performance, the man is a extraterrestrial ...
This is the best insight... plus the PUP!!! Thanks for these recaps Phil!
Considering that every year there are issues with motorized traffic (support and tv vehicles/motos) essentially fouling somebody's race: is it time to bring in the drones, at least for TV coverage? Will race organizers and UCI finally go for it?
I've noticed that you gradually speed up each time Phil. Towards the end I find it harder and harder to understand what you're saying and have to rewind, sometimes more than once. Not moaning here, just some feedback for you from a non-American who enjoys your channel👍.
Lol I FF to the end of the video, and it really sounded like the video was on x2 speed. You're right.
Like most Yanks, he talks too quickly.
Absolutely! I was about to post the same.
No mention of Bilbao punching the fan that got in the way? That was awesome.
The dog reaction clip is great. It's a "Is Phil getting pissed? Emily isn't around so I'm not sure what is happening." look.
Great vid. Agree the days of USPS/Festina are over. But I'm also not naive to think everyone is clean. There's probably still a lot of riders microdosing during training, and when and where watchful eyes are less likely to look.
Brilliant. Iñigo San Millan posted recently how talent requires a whole village of dedicated experts around pushing the right buttons in perfect sync.
I'd want to be next to the guy who offered Ben O Connor the pizza
It's simple: innocent until proven guilty.
They get tested the whole year through.
Enjoy the show, don't be a sad loser if your a pog fan.
So did lance armstrong
7.5 watts per kilo/crushing pantani's record up the climb. You have to have ketchup blood AKA hematocrit above 50 to win the tour
@@abdisaeed6883 He was proven guilty
it's not just sour Pog fans though is it. Anyone with half a brain should be questioning that performance
@@dannyh8288 he was never caught...
I’d want to be on the course where that guy was serving up pizzas. 🍕
Also shout out to Ben O’Conner for a huge ride in support of Gall.
To be fair, I also have zero enthusiasm for Baseball as they regularly endure cheating scandals, and don’t get me started on Track and Field...a constant cat and mouse game between chemistry and technology.
In 2020 Pogi was 5% better than the average of the top 20 GC results in the final TT. Yesterday he had a 5% margin again.
Jonas was 11%. Enough said. If you think that's clean you're naive af.
Jonas did 42 km/h with 2 climbs involved
Thank you for sharing your knowledge and expertise on the topic.
you are so innocent.... he is so doping!!!!! broke the record of armstrong ang ulrich - that says it all
Who broke what record? I haven't seen any record getting broken.
Don't forget it was Jonas who set the all time fastest ascent up the double Ventoux stage on Ventoux in 2021 by one minute to the nearest guy, guess who got dropped on that day, Pogi....
Haha, you don’t think that’s a red flag? When someone beats the times of fully doped Armstrong and Contador…
@@the_rzhthe materials they use are incomparable to the Armstrong times though. Same with the prep
@@Thomean UCI weight limit hasn't changed. And It's a climb so aerodynamics aren't a big factor. The other riders in the peloton have new equipment too and they aren't beating doper records.
@@the_rzh It's not only about the weight limit or aerodynamics. It's the entire race and everything before it that determine how fast you are. And while many teams spend extreme amounts on the salaries of the riders, they are somewhat low in jumbo visma.
And all that extra money is spend on research and development with a big focus on the time trials. I believe I heard Pogi earns more than twice what Vingegaard does. And if a quick google search is to be believed he earned 2.5 times what Roglic earned in 2021.
And aside from the speed in the TT, just look at the difference in how pogi and vingegaard sat on their bikes and took every turn.
@@the_rzh Vingegaard didn't beat the record on Mont Venotux. Why are you making stuff up?
Please cover the women Tour de France La femme. We need to get more women in cycling too!
Ayyye, this was great. First-time Tour viewer, first time watching your run-down. I learned a lot and will continue to watch. You're already a favorite!
I still feel theirs something not right about Jumbo Visma...tho kudos to Vingergaad for that ride, similar to Indurain in 92 imo...let's not forget it was this tank who has 3 riders cross the line of a stage of the paris-nice race in 22
I hope you keep doing these for the Vuelta, the Worlds, the Classics etc. too.
Thoughtful and reasoned. thank you
@Phil, there is a orb that goes across you and the screen as we look at 9:54. Check it out if you have not notice.
Every single "professional sport" has doping involed.
Even darts.
Everyone is payed to be their "best"
and that is PRO SPORT.
Thank you for a very clear explanation on what's really happening on this year tour d France...
Thanks Phil! I appreciate your insight on this more than anyone else’s
I still think Tadej wastes too much energy on smaller stages at the beginning. Yes, it makes the racing a lot more interesting, but every little unnecessary attack or sprint takes a little bit out of you and then in week 3 when you need it, its on a sprint for a 2 second time bonus.
Good of you to zoom in on the bored dog! Lololol
Zooming in on the dog at 4:40 😂
Any chance Phil will go up that last climb so we can see that perspective? I nearly got a leg cramp just watching them claw their way up. I know, plane tickets and money and all that boring stuff getting in the way of some good TV.
How do they do it?
Mitochondria can be genetically altered to have them feed off fat-based ketones, leading to much smaller, ketone-based rations capable of maintaining an athlete's peak performance for days at a time. Altered Mitochondria can better utilise ketones in order to rapidly restore ATP when cells deplete to ADP and AMP states during sustained intense exercise. Not a climber or a sprinter? No worries! It's possible to trigger changes to core cellular structures (aka "legal gene doping") by modifying fast/slow twitch fibre ratios. It's even possible to increase natural EPO production. Read Iñigo San Millán's literature, it explains it all in theory.
Extras:
Stem cell therapy.
Muscle relaxants.
Massage.
Ice baths.
IV nutrient/hydration drips.
Cutting edge supplements.
All of the aforementioned is "legal" and produces performances in excess of the Lance effect. Science has progressed significantly since the EPO days.
P.S. People don't want to believe that their champions are doping and cycling IS too big to fail.
P.P.S. Scientists are also hunting genetic freaks so that they already start with a performance monster. Then it's a case of getting their numbers up as high as possible naturally and then using new scientific techniques to further improve and then maintain those numbers. The "10,000 hour athlete" model is out the window. It's quite reminiscent of horse and greyhound racing only the animals happen to be cyclists.
Not sure I’m convinced. Without Jonas, Pogacar would already look scarily ahead of anyone else. Jonas’s performance looks a bit too good. Maybe he’s one in 8 billion and it’s an incredible miracle of biology, but I think it would be naive not to be a bit suspicious given the history of the sport.
All true and fair to be suspicious and I’m not trying to convince anyone. All I’m saying is if you know what you’re looking at, he made a minute in that TT on cornering and efficiency and equipment alone. He could be dirty for all I know but drugs don’t do that
C'mon Phil. People look up to you and respect your opinion. It's extreme. It's 7,6W/Kg for almost 15 minutes. It's absolutely crazy. There is no chance someone does that and isn't doping
Get lost !
Thanks Phil
I just don't understand how guys that weigh 130 lbs like Vingegaard and Remco can put out that power... even with the aerogainz, marginal gainz....
Guys there is no elite sport that doesnt have wide scale doping. Athletics, triathlon, tennis etc. Its naive to think there isnt. What baffles me is why cycling is constantly under the microscope. We the consumers want superhuman sporting events. Leave the cyclists alone and just enjoy.
Exactly
I disagree with the consumer wants superhuman sporting events, the consumer wants competitive sporting events.
We like to see people push their bodies to the limit to be the best they can be, doping makes that unimpressive since it's not the athlete pushing his body it's the athlete cheating his way to these impossible things.
Who in their right mind would like to see someone running a marathong but skipping bits and winning?
@@Minifliek If they are all skipping bits, then nobody has won because they skipped bits. It's not cheating if everybody is doing it.
@@Minifliek I don't think you get my point. Who wants to see marathon runners cheating? Do you not know about mo farahs doctor Alberto salazar?? Literally every marathon is full of dopers. However, you enjoyed it right? We all did. You call it 'cheating' but how? We now know that almost the entire peloton in the days of Lance Armstrong were doping. Can you be cheating when everyone else is cheating. We the spectators are the ones that reward 'cheaters'. Trek and nike profited from consumers buying their products due to the Armstrong cancer surviver tour winning advertisiments. Young sportsmen and women are faced with the option of taking drugs and potentially making millions (because of consumers, us) or being no bodies. Young people will always choose money and fame as opposed to the 'cheating ethics'. Its economics. The sooner you accept the reality of sports ( which is about making money via products and tickets) and let go of this idealistic rainbows and bunnies version the better. Also, father Christmas is not real. Sorry.
@@mongol62 It is still cheating if everyone cheats, also did truly everyone cheat or were there still those who didn't.
Doping is skipping bits, its skipping hard work dedication and suffering to achieve a goal.
It's also putting those who don't cheat out of play, these people that did suffer and work but didn't win anything because others cut corners.
I'm with puppy in this dopping debate.
Pogi also had no altitude camp either...but still that would not have saved him..They designed this Tour for Jonas
Yep, weird Tour with just one short, hilly TT. Next year let’s see a short prologue TT, a first week team time trial, and a late 40Kish traditional individual TT.
Top notch commentary! Thank you!
Your dog is so over your takes! Lol! 🤣
I do think there was some fakery in the TT, but it s this: they knew Pog had to take his time checks from Wout, so Wout soft pedals enough so that he only just beats Remi Cavagna, and Pog thinks he 's done a good enough job by beating Wout. Neither Wout nor Pog looked as knackered at the end as Jonas did. Fabian said the secret is "go deep", well Jonas really went deep. If Wout had done what he is capable,of he would have finished second, but also would have potentially lifted Pog's time. Tadej was played by Jumbo Visma. No "doping" necessary.
Jonas was sand-bagging after stage 5.
He could have taken 2 minutes every stage close to 15 minutes on the field.
Don't know if it was doping but i thing team rightly advised him to keep a lid on it.
I find it hilarious that in this time and age people still believe that a guy dominating a tour like this would not be doping. Both Vingegaard and Pogacar are doping, it is just a matter of who is doing it better. Also funny that people always say oh he is just training harder that anyone else blah blah this and blah blah that. Brings back memories of Armstrong. It has been obvious to me almost from the start that both of these guys are doping.
But what WE ALL WANT TO KNOW is: What IS that new substance these two have been using???
@@stanislouse4168 That’s the difficult part, it is virtually impossible to catch them, it may not even be any substance, only blood transfusions and manipulations, It is a losing battle, they chased Armstrong for years before they were able to catch him, he just got too greedy, that is how he got caught. The ones now days are smarter, they dope and wins 3 or 4 tours then retire or stop doping before getting caught just like Froome did.
I totally agree with you, it's just simply too obvious, but still they refuse to accept it
Is there “constant testing” as you said? It seems like nobody wants to talk about it. 20 years ago it seems like the announcers tried to reassure us all the time that constant testing was going on, but of course, this was right in the midst of a highly doped peloton.
Some of the drugs are not traceable after a few hours and there well known ones . The riders can no longer be tested at night , and who knows what new drugs available with recent science
Fine commentary and agree on the whole. Great take on the doping.
Still not sold on disc brakes, after the tragic comedy of corner #1 on the ITT, being traction limited means pushing these descents beyond skill and into luck territory, the margins are too fine for the human to element to be measured. They also squeal like pigs. We'll have another fatality, but it will be swept under the rug as the cost of commercial progress.
Thanks for the honest commentary....Agreed.....it's difficult for a lot of us to hear/watch commentary from former cheaters......thanks
So good, Phil. I'm just glad to know someone qualified, has a switched-on bullshite detector..
the best cycling channel
phil is a reliable source of information on this subject considering he dopes for KOMs
Yes you have a firm grasp of reality
I’m not with Phil - I’d want to be near those honking trucks. That was awesome.
Johann Bruyneel says Pogacar is ill, sick, as of stage 16. He was photographed yesterday with a cold sore. He's not well. I think that's why he lost 1:38 to JV yesterday, and why he cracked today. Bruyneel thinks he'll abandon over the next couple of days.
He looked feverish in the TT, taking his visor off. He’s not been looking well.
certainly possible. Froome out with COVID.
What about the bikes getting stuck on the final climb and causing the tour car to come to a stop and hold up Vingegaard.
On Peacock coverage, they seem to be 'Johnny on the spot' around weird events such as the reporter in the Cofidis director car on the time trial just as the rider wiped out. Similarly, today, they had a perfect shot of the red car blocking Vingegard... am I wearing a tinfoil hat if I begin to wonder whether they are creating news?
Short, sweet and to the point. Great podcast
Thanks for sharing a balanced point of view, far the madding crowd that cries wolf without thinking.
Great video! Nice job. 👏👏👏 "Interesting" to read the comments by some who appear to DESPERATELY NEED to believe that Jonas was cheating.
3:35 Hold on Phil! Ineos has a team budget of $55M, and Jumbo spent only $29m in 2023. Quick Step spent $38m. Ineos and Quickstep looked like Gan and Motorola racing Gewiss in the 90's. There is a lot more than money going on here. and it will probably take 10 years to finally come out.
Ineos are using their money mostly on useless riders like Pidcock and Geraint Thomas, so that explains the budget differences.
Its actually depressing how good Jonas is. World class climbers 4 mins behind in a 22km tt. The tour is meant to be a showcase of the best riders in the world, the most prestigious. When his next rival is nearly 8 mins behind all I want is for the rest of the field to step up, doping involved or not.
The world class climbers are hired to be domestiques for the GC guys. They don’t get to try for the win. That’s why you see the king of the mountain jersey going to roleurs.