Trackless Trams: Yet Another Gadgetbahn
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- čas přidán 20. 02. 2023
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With major publications shedding light on the new Chinese tram (bus) invention, the Autonomous Rapid Transit have we found a shortcut to good transit? Or just another rubber tired mess?
Original CNBC Video: • How An Autonomous Trai...
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Ever wondered why your city's transit just doesn't seem quite up to snuff? RMTransit is here to answer that, and help you open your eyes to all of the different public transportation systems around the world!
Reece (the RM in RMTransit) is an urbanist and public transport critic residing in Toronto, Canada, with the goal of helping the world become more connected through metros, trams, buses, high-speed trains, and all other transport modes.
If you enjoyed this video make sure to share it with someone tempted by the allure of nice looking buses!
Also, I hope your city doesn’t get snow. New York doesn’t get snow right?
Here up in the Cascade mountains we got hit real hard
Just not this year
I'd rather have proper snow than slush.
Of course how bad it is also depends on if the stuff to properly deal with it is in place.
@@charlespentrose7834 I think he means because it would cover up the white lines. Not just generally because it's annoying
Fellow new yorker here, i'd say nyc is kinda like vancouver in the sense that while it is rare to get snow, it does still happen
You mean buses? I swear I thought you were talking about buses.
It's just a really long trolleybus.
EDIT: Apparently doesn't even have overhead wires, so it's JUST a bus.
@@Marconius6 *Bus with light rail interior
He is talking about buses
It’s a bus
Its just a trolleybus with extra steps.
"Permanent" railway also works as a massive signal for the economy that the city is investing heavily in the transportation system along the route. Having a system that is easily removed from the suggested route means that whoever wants to invest in the area along the route will have to bear the additional risk that the city might change its mind and make the "reachability" of that area worse. This will lead to a lower willingness to invest in the first place.
not the first time that cities just suspend service on a tram line
We're looking at you Milan. Who the hell would remove a grade separated tram line in 2022?
I'd love to stop using my car and depend on city transit. I have an ebike that I use most of the warm months. I'm in Ohio and with our political situation in Ohio I doubt if we ever move into the 21st century.
Didn't dozens of American, Australian, and New Zealand cities rip out their tram lines in the 1950s? Not sure how the rails in the ground really stopped that from happening.
@@no-damn-alias but it can be restarted. Easily actually. And if it is used then it will not be suspended
So, a guided bus with painted “tracks” will work super great in New York and the rest of the north….except for when it snows and you can no longer “see” the guides…. Yup, great plan.
Snow is a bit of an issue yes :/
That's why these autonomous buses have a driver, for all those times it can't autonomate.
It uses lazor to detect the track. (found in a Chinese news article)
That's not a big issues. Sensors embedded painted tracks the bus know where the lines are. There is snow in china sobthey probably already thought about thia already.
To be fair, even Vancouver's fully autonomous Skytrain network needs drivers when it snows. From my understanding this is purely because the system that detects track obstructions doesn't work in the snow.
I appreciate the attention given to NYC buses as an NYC bus rider. Traffic signal priority was pitched when they installed Select Bus Service and I have not seen it in action anywhere. The bus network redesigns have been moving at a glacial pace after being suspended during the pandemic and I hope they can get them all done by mid-decade. My borough's bus routes have changed little overall since the 70s and really need an update.
For sure, New York would benefit from being a bit more dynamic with this
@@RMTransit I think the select bus service busses should definitely be upgraded. I ride the m34 select bus almost everyday and it’s absolutely packed. I’ve thought of how it could be upgraded to a tram but it would probably be way to disruptive to upgrade the street, plus the parades on the street would make building new infrastructure impossible, so the best solution would be to get these better busses with more capacity and hopefully better priority.
Also the IBX is a much better project than the BQX since it serves a lot more areas without fast transit and light rail works fine. Don’t like how that was left out of the CNBC video. Just hope they eventually extend into the Bronx
At least New York City has camera enforcement of bus lanes. If only we had that in Toronto!
@@scottydude456 nice bus can have tram bus, even SCT can get these tram buses, MTA just need better with more capacity.
@@nc3826 Mr. Reece can speak for himself, but I think he is just trying to show what is possible and where transit authorities should put their attention. Further, there is the fact that per capital transit ridership is higher in most Canadian cities like Toronto than comparable American cities other than New York City.
The Mayor of Brisbane Australia, Adrian Schrinner, hates it when people call his metro (with no rails, rubber wheels, and a driver with a steering wheel) a bus. But c'mon Adrian. We all know it's a bus.
I think it's worth it just to see transit fans fuming that it's called a Metro.
a nice bus..
the emperor's new tram
I'm glad you've made this, I saw the CNBC vid a few days ago and found it infuriating - especially considering they've otherwise recently made some pretty decent videos on other urbanist related issues.
Thanks for writing the exact post I was about to make.
It's just frustrating that they didn't at least include a bit more skepticism about something that we've been hearing for decades - I e. This new vehicle tech will revolutionize transit
So true!
Keep in mind, those decent urbainst videos by mainstream media was generated following half a decade of independent creators discussions on the same topic.
They only ventured in this path after seeing the buzz and demand. Kinda like the transit plans😅
They also recently made a video about America Express vs. the rest. While the video may be fair since I’m not professionally informed about the credit card industry, I definitely did find the tone of the video sponsored.
I live in Liverpool, UK. They keep trying to push 'trackless tram' 'technology' (a bus) onto us, even though the people have been asking for a proper tram network, for decades. And then the council turn around and act like they are listening to us. It's disgusting.
You guys in Liverpool get busses?
Not from Liverpool but I have heard about the "Mersey Tram" concept. I would much rather they built that than a stupid gadetbahn thing that will probaly brake down at one point
@@aidanwright5035 to be fair, you'd be hard pressed to find a transport system that Won't 'break down at one point'. The things that don't... well, they do, they just have enough redundancy and good enough maintenance that the don't breakdown while In Service. But... that would apply to any random gadgetbahn too, as it's a matter of budget and mentality on the part of the opperators.
you would think with how well they've worked in manchester just up the road, trams would be the obvious option.
A bus but unable to go as fast
One of the residential communities in my town (in the UK) opposes construction of a new connecting rail line nearby partly on the grounds that they believe "trackless trams and automated vehicles are on the horizon", despite the road link - and by extension bus route - to nearby cities often being riddled with traffic. As you mentioned it definitely feels like an extension of the much wider problem of 'new' or 'innovative' technology being promoted to solve problems (often by a single company or billionaire) over existing and far more practical solutions.
We had trackless trams back in 1950's.
They were just busses connected to wires.
Not just NIMBYs but NIMBYs with poor imaginations.
Yep, these technologies have been just a few years away for a long time . . .
@@RMTransit You could call it "the salesman problem". Non-experts (including politicians and the general public) are being swayed by a smooth-talking salesman.
As the video mentions, I can't get over the fact that driverless vehicles already exist - on rails!
You want that? You can have it now! Just build the goddamn rails!
Small correction, in the case of hyperloop, it should be extensively used in dreams, Powerpoints and spectacular CGI shots
I loved how the CNBC video talked about how comfortable ART is while showing an cabin shot thats bouncing all over the place lol
they must watched the old video where the reporter talks about how smooth the ride on the APT Prototype is ... while every tablewear is ratteling
@@enisra_bowman
I was about to reply the same thing. You beat me to it. 😂
Bouncing is more comfortable than being jolted against steel rails. And it's quieter for the people inside and outside.
Cognitive dissonance in action.
ART is more like Fake how can ART trackless Tram have tyres and Streering wheel is more like BRT Bus with either electric bus or Trolleybus and light rail transit is Tram or Streetcar has rail line track Chinese don't know what they are making.
"Plans that are proposed, but just don't get built" I would say that is a common theme across North America, where there are a lot of proposals made but nothing ever gets beyond the planning stage.
I live in Austria, which is really a country with quite good public transport. And even here, a lot of things get proposed and never built.
But there are probably many regions that do a lot worse on this metric, as still a lot gets built here.
The bigger the city, the more proposals, and the more proposals that are not good enough. Having lots of proposals is always good, no matter how many of them get built!
And the world more broadly, buts it's especially bad in the US
I thought my city was the only one, but no it's a problem worldwide. Here in Auckland, New Zealand, we've been spending countless dollars on consultants on whether we should build a second bridge since we built the first one in the 1950s.
@@RMTransit its a problem in aukland , NZ😢
A good subway system really is a huge blessing for a city and the surrounding suburbs. I used to work and live in Washington D.C.. I used the metro every day for work. The system finally received some much needed expansion and upgrades.
To all of that I would add that heavy vehicles on rubber tires put a lot of stress on the asphalt and are usually responsible of most bumps. Using steel tracks means that you can put a quite heavy vehicle through it without doing any damage to the road.
I've been told anecdotally that Sydney's transport officials (I.e. not politicians) actually rejected considering "trackless trams" because they are heavier than regular buses and roads need to be strengthened to carry the weight, so might as well upgrade to actual tracks.
@@samuel2291 That, or adding more axles, which just moves the maintenance nightmare to the vehicle itself.
It's worth noting that in Brisbane the 'bus impermanence' that you mention hasn't happened. Instead we've gone the other way. From shared traffic to bus priority, and then right of way, to fully separated busways. This is what gives Brisbanites and their Government the confidence that the Brisbane Metro BRT will perform as it is meant to. It already has a strong network of BRT lanes to link in with, and is an extension of this system.
I think that if there isn't a large constituency that is ideologically opposed to having transit at all, a lot of the more political dangers don't apply.
All the damage of a heavy vehicle on roads, without the permanency of rails. Nothing could go wrong!
Well what it will mean is additional cost to reinforce the roads, which hurts the "cost friendliness".
Trackless Trams sound like Articulated Buses with extra steps.
Politicians are attracted to them simply for political points. This is just a BRT with extra steps! As impressive as it is for China to go from the Beijing-Tianjin line to connecting EVERY province in the country with their HSR network in just over a decade, that doesn't mean their other projects are immune to criticism. Due to the current political climate (the US Dept. of Defense listed them as a Chinese military company), CRRC is ineligible to receive production contracts in the US. They're still being held to complete their current contracts, but there is no incentive on the table to produce quality, which is partly why their new plant in Springfield, MA has been SO behind in their MBTA contract.
I get that they chose NYC because CNBC is based in the NYC metro area in New Jersey, but that just shows they're not true locals because if they were, they'd know that NYC RELIES on the subway to function. A "trackless tram" just wouldn't do on the ALREADY congested streets of Manhattan. Just look at the M42 route and how slow and unreliable THAT route is! Could you fix Manhattan's bus network? Of course you can, but you can solve that WITHOUT this gadgetbahn technology!
I want to say that yes you have a point, but I would like to add one question.
Why not test it in Silicon Valley or rather the Bay Area? The Bay Area has functioning transit systems yes, but can't those companies build some experimental tech into the Bay Area? They are testing automatic driverless cars here, and why can't they do the same for here for such advanced "transport".
Edinburgh used to have a guided busway. It lasted about 5 years before they replaced it with a tram.
Cambridge has a misguided busway, which definitely wasn't cheap to build and doesn't really work that well.
I so, so want "misguided busway" to be a proprietary technology brand name..
Wasn't the Edinburgh guided busway about 1.2 miles, didn't skip any major traffic and just left the bus stops a really long way from the houses? And shook horribly side to side
A road running train...
So a bus, it's a bus.
So basically. A techbro version of buses
Well . . .
Just gotta make a correction here- rubber tires don’t make a bus uncomfortable, the road does. Trams would be much more comfortable (and quieter) with rubber wheels instead of steel, that’s just basic physics. However rails are far more comfortable compared to asphalt because they last much longer, and imperfections can be quickly repaired to original condition.
steel wheels on steel rails also have a miniscule amount of rolling resistance vs rubber
Active suspensions plus mapping of all the bumps on a fixed route should eliminate the bumpiness blamed on rubber tires. The pollution from rubber tires is another story. They shed rubber particles as they are used, and they wear out. They have to be disposed of, and replaced with new tires.
@@tom4ivo Well, metal wheels also need replacing.
@@AndrooUK Not often though. I hope you take away this understanding going forward that rails are just better in terms of longevity.
Thank you Reece for another superb video. Speaking from Europe (Britain), and having experience of a number of different types of 'guided' bus, I entirely agree with you.
I would however not use the term 'Trackless Tram', as that phrase is sometimes used in Britain for trolleybuses. I prefer the French phrase 'Tramways sur pneus' [tyres]. However, the French use that phrase both for the (now abandoned) TVR systems in Nancy and Caen, and for the 'Translohr' systems which still operate in eg Clermont-Ferrand and on Paris lines T5 and T6.
I’m mainly using that because it’s the term proponents use, I don’t like it!
They're *brams!*
What "trackless tram" evokes for me is the kind of vehicle sometimes used to shuttle passengers around large parking lots--usually a simple human-driven tractor pulling a train of open-sided cars, all on rubber tires. Sometimes they're used for short-range transit in tourist-trap areas such as beach boardwalks.
I call them guided trolleybuses most of the time depending on the specifics
@@RMTransit If you don't like it, then why use it? "The term proponents use it" sounds ridiculous.
In Eindhoven (The Netherlands) a guided, self driving bus was developed around the turn of the century, so over 2 decades ago. The bus, called "Phileas" was supposed to follow a magnetic guideline in concrete dedicated lanes and was supposed to be selfdriving. it turned out to be a regular articulated bus that looked like a tram with dedicated buslanes. The concept was event sold abroad (e.g. Douai, Istanbul - in Douai it seemed to be most succesful - or least unsuccesful?). In Eindhoven the network of dedicated buslanes still exists, but is now used by electric articulated buses that have a somewhat tram-ish look, there are event 9 lines of which most (but not all) run frequent, especially on shared sections. It's an improvement, but I rather had seen actual trams. City is large enough (240k pop. and growing fast with all the expats working for ASML 😁, metro area 780k pop) but in The Netherlands there's not much political will or vision 😔
If you're installing a magnetic guideline anyway... why not put in a rail?
They've reinvented the bus 😂😂
Apparently people in the comments don’t seem to understand how much more convenient these tram-buses are compared to other buses. Being only one storey, fully automated and having 3 articulated sections (which is uncommon in buses) is a Huge advantage for these tram-buses
Hold on, how is only being one story an advantage???
Also if you really need a triple articulated bus, you may want to look into just getting a normal tram.
I live in Monterrey, MX. The line 5 for our metro is under construction and it is going to be using this “trackless tram” technology. The original plan for the line 5 was a traditional elevated heavy rail line, but there was a lot of opposition and NIMBYs. The only way the local government managed to get a middle ground agreement, was by changing the heavy rail project to this glorified bus.
Good video, Reece. Politicians seem to be attracted to gadgetbahns. We need a PR campaign around buses, touting their high-tech features, to make them seem cool. The bus industry should take some cues from car ads. This could serve to distract politicians from gadgetbahns.
Ooooh... 15 minutes of Reece throwing shade. Very deserved shade. So so satisfying!
Air filled rubber tyres aren't the cause of a bumpy ride. They are actually pretty good at insulating vehicles from smaller bumps. It's the concrete or asphalt road surface that's not just prone to wear but also to its foundation setting and gets additionally worsened by patchwork resurfacing. Rails wear much mor evenly and are more structurally sound for themselves.
A trackless tram, hey. This is the future we were promised.
I look forward to the invention of dehydrated water.
What a fascinating and modern world we live.
Worrying about losing your job?
dry hydrophobic water already exists btw
@@Ritz1256 you mean ice?
@@Bauvolk ice isn't quite hydrophobic even the fully frozen ones. What I mean are water drops combined with certain hydrophobic powders then blended with blender, essentially making a half-powder (considered dry) of hydrophobic water
I just find it funny how here in Pyongyang, we built two metro lines, four tram lines, twelve trolleybus lines, and recently added green bike lanes so the many cyclists of the city don't have to go in the car lanes, while other cities around the world STILL can't decide on which is the better gadgetbahn to build, a glorified bus or a monorail. Heck, while our Metro is famous for using old Berlin trains, we've recently built cars for the Metro IN-HOUSE! That's the power of Juche...SELF-RELIANCE! Our capital was DESTROYED TO THE GROUND after the war, and yet we got our act together and made the city a shining example of a transit city. So we ask the rest of the world, what is YOUR excuse?
our excuse is that we dont starve our entire country
@@bucket6386 America does
@@F4URGranted that is not true. It's only the poor half that starve
@@graham1034 Not even, the homeless here are largely homeless by lifestyle. The US has enough social programs in place that if you became homeless, you can get back on your feet relatively quickly, the span of maybe a year or so. Issue is many of these programs will stay away from people with drug addiction issues, which is a lions share of the homeless population. Oldboy living in a tent under an overpass and avoiding people isn’t doing it because he can’t find a job after losing his house, he’s using heroin and doesn’t wanna share.
@@SCIFIguy64 it was a joke, no one is literally going to starve in the US. But the US does have a reputation of providing a much weaker social safety net than other developed nations
Perhaps the most frustrating aspect of gadgetbahn ‘solutions’ is that at the end of the day, unlike real mass transit options, they are no real threat to the car-dependent status quo. Don’t worry, Adam Something has you covered.
Trackless trams, isn’t that a trolleybus?
Thank you! I saw that CNBC video the other day and thought... who are they kidding? You hit all the important points. Keep cutting through the Gadgetbahn buzz.
The difference between a guided bus and an ART is the difference between installing a trolley way, and adding a painted bike lane. One is definitely less expensive.
I feel like he just glossed over the cost difference because he loves rail (I do too). But cities have to operate with budgets. He never said what the actual cost difference is between "ART" and a LRT. I'm guessing its quite significant.
@@christiankruse1970 He did make the callout that buses are "budget" option. Yes buses < "ART" < LRT in cost, the point was that buses ~= "ART" in value, so why pay something between buses and LRT when you could just pay buses and get the same value.
imagine a bi-articulated bus with trolley lines and tracks ;O This would be the true future of transit!
The Brisbane busway was built 20 years ago with the intention of converting it to a tram line. Currently it's a central route for a lot of seperate bus lines that get stuck in their own traffic. The "metro" is a prime gadget bahn which will cause multiple dozens more change overs between bus and fancy bus. Intending to run service at 2 minute intervals (the most frequent in the state) the route clearly has demand for serious mass transit and even keeping the existing bus lanes it's still costing over $2 billion. As a local the politics is complicated but safe to say I disapprove of this project. People are always shocked when I tell them the "get up and go metro" is a bus route through seperated tunnels that's been in construction for 14 months.
Brisbane "metro" is stupid as hell. What was even stupider was ripping up one of the largest tram networks in the world.
In a city of significant size BRT should only be used as “secondary transit”
I couldn't disagree more. The Brisbane Metro BRT leverages the existing BRT system wonderfully and gets tremendous value from it. Brisbane's bus system continues to improve, with projects like the Gympie Rd conversion increasing its value and capacity. This project will also help unlock the congestion in the city and cultural precinct. Over time more parts of the BRT system can be upgraded to Metro BRT standard, without the huge investment of heavy rail, or the expense and complication of at-grade light-rail.
@@Secretlyanothername Gympie road is a complete disaster that won't be solved by a bus lane. And on the cost a majority of cost for rail projects is the stations and the corridor (both of which exist already) as apposed to the cost of bus drivers on smaller capacity vehicles which will be running at terminal frequency from launch compared to automated rail (like Sydney metro)
I can't find any documents that indicate that it was planned for the busway to oneday be turned into a tram-line. What I can say though is that the busway is significantly cheaper to construct and maintain than a tram system would have been and importantly supports a feeder system that allows far greater accessibility to the suburbs.
You refer to the congestion caused at the Cultural Centre and Queen St, but both of those are being amended by the metro project (inclusive of the $1.7B spent on the project). From the data I can find the capacity of the busway following the metro project will be 22000 commuters an hour which appears to be on par of the capacity of the G:Link and individual lines in the QR Citylines network, but for cheaper. In addition travelling 25km along the busway will take about 25 minutes on average following the metro project which is about on par with the above too.
I wouldn't say either a tram-line or a busway is the superior option necessarily, but I don't think it can be denied that for the small cost that has been expended on the busway over its entire lifetime (compartively speaking) it has been a great addition. I personally can't see any reason why it shouldn't be kept just the way it is, and it synergises perfectly with the local bus system.
A circular bus line was converted to something like ART recently in my hometown, they call it "Intelligent Electric Bus". It's just an electric tall bus that has those same guiding "painted tracks" at the stops and acts like a tram (it stops at every stop, all doors can be open for boarding, etc.).
I had no opinions on it when it was being built but videos like this made me realize it's absurd. Like, the line now has priority, is mostly separated from traffic and has a higher frequency (which is great), but they didn't need to spend so much on cool buses and such to improve those things. Or, if they were determined to remodel the whole corridor to improve it, they could have put down tracks to create another tram line, which would actually be more sustainable.
Every point you made was spot on, it feels like this transit mode is almost always an expensive middle ground.
at least it's never described as a "pod"
In France, the city of Rouen has the "Teor". It's an articulated optically-guided vehicule, running on a dedicated lane. Guess what: it actually is... a bus. And the reason why the "Teor" exists is because Rouen's City Hall thought that the cost for news tram lines was too high, so they adopted this "hybrid" solution. Oh and by the wat, Rouen's tram system is called... Metro. Because it runs underground trough the city center. You're welcome. We are the France.
The City of Liverpool (UK) and Liverpool (New South Wales) are both looking at trackless trams, this video helped me understand because i was so confused when i saw that my local city was looking at "trackless" trams, i had no idea what that was, just thought it was a bus right of way. (very redundant in Liverpool UK because all 3 routes proposed for trackless trams have a very large bus network already.)
I live in Liverpool, Uk. I have heard nothing about this.
They are going to build an ART Line in Kuching, Malaysia. Being the first 'rail' line the state Sarawak has, I am quite disappointed that they decided to build an ART line instead of a LRT. Felt like that's the wrong decision since it's such a new technology.
If I remember correctly, similar ARTs are also going to be introduced in the southern Johor, Malaysia, and undergoing trials. Since then, I don't what happened apart from these ARTs being "utilized" at KLIA recently, probably as a temporary replacement to the broken-down Aerotrain system.
The key issue with using this as a solution (specially in NY) is the fact that it's not addressing existing problems with the system. -"Hey, nobody rides the buses because they're not frequent enough." -"Oh, I know, what about we guide them by painting markers on the road?" -"Wha-... it doesn't even make sense. Well, at least they'll be segregated from the general traffic, right? ... Right?" -"Why would they? We're _perfectly_ fine with bus- sorry, with trackless trams running among traffic, what's the problem?"
This is basically a flaw in even understanding what the word "technology" means: it comes from Ancient Greek "techne", a word used to describe the making of things, and "logia" which means "study"; in other words, it's the study and knowledge of how to make things. I like to say it's the acquisition of knowledge _through_ making things, this way I try to focus more on the "doing" instead of the "knowing", because technology needs to be applied in order to generate benefits. It's not simply doing things, is understanding them in the process. And one of the main ways of developing technology is understanding what problems the thing has and try to solve them by applying the knowledge you have about the subject. It's applying knowledge to solve a problem, not inventing a solution and trying to make up what problems it solves. And this is a common feature of gadgetbahns.
But even then it doesn't make sense. Let's look at it from the other side: if the issue were that it's hard to drive long buses, so hard that drivers struggle with keeping them in their lane, then guiding them by machine would be a solution. But I don't think drivers struggle with driving buses, I would think buses are made to be drivable, aren't they?
I can't tell you how much I enjoy these videos. And it's great that you give Brisbane a mention because the local govt knows all too well that we don't take their "Metro" seriously, and so they are trying to prop this half baked plan up with a shiny label. Right now we have traditional busses following the routes of the new BRTs and they suck, and these new bigger ones can only be marginally better (if at all), and fall far short of a real advance in our city's public transport. Embarrassing is the right word for it, especially seeing as we have the olympics in 9 years.
Love that they want to call something that distinctly requires a driver autonomous. Might as well call a Hummer eco-friendly at that point because technically it has better fuel economy than an MBT. I can't believe it's not even powered by overhead wires...
The lack of overhead wires on a fixed route is certainly odd.
Small note, Paris also has a line with no drivers (line 2).
Btw, in Belgium we have something like a 'tram-bus' what is an ART.
You’re mistaken. The automatic metro lines in Paris are lines 1 and 14 (with line 4 being full automatic soon). The next line to be automated will be line 13.
Most other lines (like line 2) have had some form of automated driving but still require drivers. And drivers have to drive the whole line manually at least once per shift.
Now I know I'm a public transportation junkie, if CZcams shows me the same video suggestions as RMTransit
Great rant! If you were to ride a San Francisco jackhammer bus you would know how truly right you are. Also, the mention of still another monorail proposal for Los Angeles is hilarious. I remember monorail proposals from my youth there in the 1950s - slim bullet trains gliding effortlessly along unsupported pencil-thin rails high above the ground. Then for a while reality struck when Seattle built its clunky world's fair monorail on massive concrete pillars. The monorail fantasy will never die. Gadgetbahn fantasies evidently won't either.
Trackless trams aka trolley buses in the UK 😂. The biggest benefit and drawback of buses is the number of stops. It takes about the same time (w/o traffic) for me to take a local train and walk a bit over a mile home as it does to take the bus that stops about 100 metres from my front door. So I tend to use the train more often.
Once you add traffic you can see why bus has become a dirty word. Basically you can be sat in traffic in your own car with comfortable seating, aircon and your choice of music (and potentially arrive earlier) or be sat in the same traffic with a load of other people, one of whom just won't stop coughing.
I'm not sure if it's relevant but the "trackless trams" in my city are really succesful here in Nantes France.
It's called "busway" lines and are somewhat of an hybrid between trams and buses. They are not autonomous and use mostly dedicated roads but their flexibility is a real benefit here.
If there is any issue or obstacle on a line they are easy to reroute and their "footprint" is pretty low in cities. Also cool to have electric buses that are pretty effective.
Now I think I'm mistaken and you are talking about a different type of transportations than the electric "busways" in my city.
Yes, busway lines are a thing and a sensible one at that. That's exactly what he said in the video.
The painful thing about trackless trams is that it caused Thailand's mass transit projects for its large cities such as Chiang Mai and Phuket to be severely delayed, as both systems were meant to be real light rail, but the new transportation minister pushed the idea of using CRRC's trackless trams instead which ended up completely destroying all hope for any city outside of Bangkok to have any real form of mass transit.
Fun fact: Chiang Mai, Thailand's 2nd largest city, has NO formal mass transit as of currently, and the bus system closed down two years ago due to very low ridership.
Why did it have low ridership? I would suspect that cities like chiang mai would actually depend on mass transit.
@@xlukas93because motorcycles are faster
I think trackless trams do have a niche use as an alternative to BRT. In places that would require a lot of grading and expensive earthworks to use rail, and when you dont want to diesel vehicles because of environment concerns trackless trams could be used.
Seriously if you’re a mid-sized city who wants a good transit system:
BUILD A LIGHT METRO!
At least for a transit backbone. An S-bang would work and a tram in the city center would work too.
Too expensive, our politicians won’t listen
Thank you for saying it straight. People have so much hope in magical new technologies when the ones we have are already great and efficient, they just require, for example, their own lane or space. Hope this video reaches the right people.
Today I took a 2 wheel engine less car to work. Love it🤗
The video is quite emotional, you have a strong point about guided buses. But it still does not hide the benefit of it being flexible on operation and city planning, especially in western countries plannings are more regional rather than in a big scale. The hidden cost of rail system is why the guided buses are attractive in areas with low budget but high transit demands.
I’m in Brisbane so I’ll let you know how terrible the Brisbane (not a) Metro is soon. Although I can confirm, having seen the bi-articulated buses running around, that they do indeed bounce up and down like a trampoline.
My initial thoughts on the title : So it's a gadget bendy bus ?
Video : It's a gadget bendy bus !
trackless trams sound like the worst mix of a bus and a tram
Can you PLEASE cover BYD's bid for LA Metro's 405/Sepulveda Pass monorail system? I feel like this is a huge thing that should be more well known whilst Metro is having community meetings discussing whether or not HRT is an option on the table when BYD is already publishing a Public Private Partnership to build their proprietary SkyRail system....
ART is simply the NIMBY way of developing LRT, I think it would work in suburbs where transit authorities may struggle to get a foothold into them due to strong NIMBY responses. I'm sure if applied appropriately this could be a means of gauging LRT interest in a more legitimate way by creating temporary tram lines where cities may believe it to be beneficial then use it for years before replacing it with a legitimate line or out right stopping service along the route.
I say, sure let gadget bahns rule over the suburbs and let them eat their cake without urban citizens suffering.
Why would the suburbs need or want more than regular buses??? The ONLY use case would be a park and ride into a nearby city.
Excellent video Reece!
LMAO I saw that video in my recommended and thought "that's so stupid"
People when a proven technology with years of research and understanding is pitched: Boring
People when a minor tweak, which can offer great performance to effort is pitched: I sleep
People when a bus or train but worse and with extra steps is pitched: *THAT ONE I WANT YES*
Hi Reece. I am sorry to learn from your latest Substack Article that you will be leaving Toronto. As a Toronto resident living in Scarborough. I enjoy seeing your content and learning about various Transit systems all over the world and different topic videos including one recently on Climate change. I wish you all the best wherever you choose to move to and I will continue being subscribed to your channel because you will have more amazing content to share in the present and future. And please do visit Toronto again wherever you get a chance to do so.
These have been done in Europe, without success, for Decades.
The Cambridgeshire Guided Busway, known locally as The Busway, is a prime example of an Big hooplah inauguration but has dwindled due to the 'issues' and 'problems'.
Instead of trying to integrate essentially glorified buses ... as Trams, so the glorified buses can easily integrate with traffic, they should be glorified buses (trams) that easily integrate with Railways.
Just watched on nebula and came back to comment. Thank you for making this.
Oh they invented a bus
Saw the video too. Didn't watch it cuz it's basically a bus with more capacity
And they are already buses that have just as much capacity.
I Hope you watched mine 😅
@@RMTransit Don't worry I did
Thank you thank you thank you. I was waiting for this video. Greetings from Zurich with its trams and trolleybuses 😊
This "Nice Bus" is just getting some PR for sales is my take on that CNBC video. Picking New York is just dumb, this thing which you pointed out needs wide avenues and dedicated lanes, plus it's a budget option or try out for a route which might get upgraded for Tram/LRT later on. So houston for pilot scheme then?
its funny how they describe this "ART" as ideal for connecting uncongested suburbs to urban transit, and then conclude with its good idea to install in urban congested cities! every promotional shot of it is on empty roads, in sparsely developed areas, with barely any passengers. and I find it telling that it isn't even installed in one major Chinese city. if a state owned company in a one-party political system can't get it pushed everywhere, its probably because its not even a half-decent mass transit solution.
Can we just PLEASE say it from the beginning? It's just fancier looking buses. Just give your buses their own lanes if you don't wanna build tracks into the road.
Thank you for validating my hate watch of that CNBC video suggested to me. I wonder if we’ll get a debunking of this gadgetbahn from Adam Something or Alan Fisher too
"I don't think any attention given to public transportation is a bad thing"
You say that, but my counterpoint would be the extensive coverage of the Vegas Tesla tunnels.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Trackless Trams are BS. If you want a tram just build a tramline.
Fundamentally, ART is a more comfortable BRT that has LRT aesthetics, due to stigma against buses. Light rail in the US is so expensive, I can see why cities might want to use a BRT variant instead but try to mask the fact that it's a bus.
Is it more comfortable, though? I mean, long and short, it is still a bus with bus suspension system. And if you are going to claim that the suspension system are better, then why aren't these "better" suspension systems not installed on bus in the first place?
And the reality is any better suspension is countered by having a few tonnes of batteries on the roof..
Ideally you'd actually floor mount the batteries (like most electric cars) which also partially minimises wheel wells, but then it's not low floor, so you need to spend more on dedicated platforms.
Like many things in transport - it's a tradeoff.
Johor (Malaysia) was considering to have ART in Iskandar Malaysia, its administrative capital. The project is called, Iskandar Malaysia *Bus* Rapid Transit (IMBRT).
THANK YOU!!!!! Well said and very detailed information and facts RM!! You Rock!
I agree with pretty much everything you said, though the first and biggest issue that came to my mind when I saw that video was climate. Sure this “new technology” is great in China and Australia, just like self driving cars work great in Cali, but NY(like here is Canada) gets a lot of snow and constant freeze-thaw cycles in the winter.
Of course they are super smooth when you are driving a brand new vehicle on brand new asphalt, but that road will get potholes fast, the suspension will be eaten by road salt, and the painted track will be completely invisible under a foot of snow. So as you said, your back to a fancy bus on a BRT priority lane… but it will probably handle worse in snow because it’s bi-articulated…
Better off as you said building an automated rail line that uses those fancy sensors to see people on the RoW to reduce the level of grade separation required if you are dead set on using fancy sensors.
It can use lazor to detect the track covered in snow. Or, some magnetic detectable module can also be placed under the road surface. (found in a Chinese news article) Harbin, a city in northeastern China that gets lots of snow in winter, has an ART line.
Some people mentioned snow days. ART actually has solutions for snow-covered track. Solution 1 it can use lazor to detect the track. Solution 2 detectable magnetic modules can be placed under the road surface. I found this answer in an article answering questions from residents in Harbin about ART. Harbin is a city in northeastern China that gets lots of snow in winter.
Most complaints in China are about the slow speed and it being a "moving obstacle", and the dedicated lanes taking too much road space (common complaint for tramways too).
The advantages of ART is that, compared to long buses, because all segments are short, and they are on a track, the vehicle requires less space when making turns; and since it uses rubber tire, maybe it requires less careful calculation than trams. Also, compared to bus, the length of it can be adjusted to match the demand. In my opinion, ART is not an ideal choice for now, but some ideas of it are worth exploring.
All transport policy makers should watch this video - mandatory!
Thank you for this great video!
Hey Reece, as you know, violence and crime seem to have increased on the TTC. I was wondering if you could make a video on transit safety, how it affects ridership and what are some of the best solutions around the world?
This is a huge issue that NIMBY’s often cite that isn’t discussed enough in the transit or urbanist communities. There’s only been one YT video by Oh the Urbanity made on it so far, it would be nice to see Reece bring it up.
Melbourne has Protective Service Officers on the Train network and it has been quite effective in giving confidence to passengers to travel at night, driving patronage up.
I'd also love to see more attention given to transit safety. I've heard mention that transit advocates are significantly more likely to be male than female or non-binary, due to the risk of violence, and that is something we must not ignore. Everybody deserves to be (and feel) safe in public places, and alienating half the population isn't doing us any favors when it comes to amassing the support needed to make the changes in our communities that we advocate for. (And while I'm certainly a staunch advocate for transit, this kind of thing is one of several reasons why I consider improving walkability and bikability to be a higher priority than improving transit; people aren't "sitting ducks" for assault when on foot or on a bike, as there's much more likely to be a path to flee, as opposed to, for example, a tram car where there are only a few places to run or hide if need be.)
I agree that trackless teams are just gloried busses. But isn’t that a reason to not rule them out? Like yeah if we just call them busses would they be fit for purpose, or do they still actually pale in comparison to actual busses. That brisbane ‘metro’ bus looked pretty nice, better than a normal bus and kinda looked a bit tram-like. What would the difference between that and trackless tram be?
Really just the painted track - and semi-automated driving.
And reality is you probably don't even need the painted track.. Plenty of cars these days come with good lane centreing tech (not just Tesla's) that can essentially follow a marked road just using a few cameras.
They could work as feeder systems in low density areas
Thinking about the Northern Virginia suburbs where the silver line runs through
I think the point is that dealers of this (often proprietary) tech try to tout it and drum up the price (at a loss to actual taxpayers), and media coverage full of buzzwords assists them. We should just call them buses _and_ as the most important corollary, keep our heads level about what price is right, and avoid vendor lock-in (or worse, wholly discontinued gadget tech that ends up a liability).
@@u1zha yeah totally, this makes a lot of sense actually. Thanks!
Thanks for covering this topic despite your dislike of the technology.
2 comments on my side:
- Trams are extremely noisy. I used to live close to tram tracks for a while and it was a nightmare. I currently live in Basel which is probably one of the cities with the greatest density of trams. I find it difficult to find a flat in the city center which is not exposed to the noise of the tram. I love public transportation and I don't even own a car, but we have to admit that trams are noisy.
- On the bumpiness of busses, I wonder too which extent it is not due to the fact that vehicles with rubber wheels can accelerate more quickly than vehicles with iron wheels. If that's the case, this is actually a disadvantage of the tram instead of one of the bus, as the latter has more capacity than the former. And we can always train the bus drivers for not accelerating too quickly (or even prevent them from doing so).
I love the expression of "silicon valley buzzwords". Seems there is always some silicon valley big wig ready to sell some proprietary system for a quick buck.
I call it "Techbro BS"
This is very much not a Silicon Valley thing, but it feels like it…
@@RMTransit It's a media thing. Even most of the Silicon Valley Buzzword things are media creation. Unless it's some doomed startup, it's rarely the developing company themselves throwing out those wild "future-changing and totally revolutionary" visions...
literally just a car
The trackless tram is really not a technology problem, its a marketing problem. If it was called a driverless bus, there would be no issue, and it could be used in areas suited for BRT quite well. And it would actually be a really nice BRT. As soon as they tried to pretend its an LRT is where they lost the plot. This thing is a great BRT and a bad LRT
That's kind of how I saw it. A more tram-like BRT.
It's driverless
When I read the title I wondered what could be wrong with some bigger buses to call them a gadgetbahn. The ability to move more people per vehicle is surely a positive in mass transit? Yeah, then the video explained they wanted to draw lines everywhere to lead these magical people-worms through a city in a way that makes them as expensive as trams that need rails built into the road...the one thing you might want to improve/have a cheaper alternative to. Another 'lets combine the problems of both' plan. Buses need drivers for interacting with other traffic, interacting with other traffic means delays due to traffic, and have a lower capacity than a train. On the other side, technology outside of the vehicle to set the routes the vehicle can follow, and therefore eliminate its ability to take detours (rails, magical painted lines) and a higher price to install and maintain, and still have a lower capacity than a train, (but they can be coupled together to create a tram train to get there at least). At least it doesn't reduce the capacity of the vehicle to single person line-sniffing tyred tic-tacs, so that's progress at least. At this rate, the inventors of 'gadgetbahns' will invent the idea of a train around the year 3150, or is that 31500. Either way, it's now a destination instead of a fleeting hope of a madman of them seeing sense. :)
You by far made the best arugment for Chinese Companies making transit vehicles without getting into Xenophobic reasons.
OMG! Thank you for this!! It’s so frustrating seeing people jump on this ART bandwagon while they neglect/ignore regular transport options that are tried and proven. Malaysian city/regional authorities like Iskandar Malaysia are trying to introduce ART while not paying enough attention to running frequent local bus services!
i saw a video about ART in Malaysia and yeah, you’re right
Surprised you didn't mention Tokyo. If something is a viable mode of transport, it almost certainly exists in Tokyo or another Japanese city, and you can learn from how well it performs there. Being that they have both public and private operators and just so much transit, they have almost everything, and it's a great way to see if something has issues, and you can also learn something if they rarely choose to use something. BRT is very uncommon, the right of way is the most expensive thing, labor costs are high and population is high. If they thought it would save them money I think they would do it, but clearly it doesn't
@@es-zw3mg I guess that's also true haha
Chinese national standards limit the length of buses to less than 18 meters. CRRC developed ART for the purpose of improving the safety of bus operation above 18m through the guide line so that it can be applied in cities. In order to avoid new problems caused by the adjustment of national standards, ART is classified as the guide system, which is the category of APM. ART application is also basically to replace the original planned tram line to reduce costs, or replace the main lines on the "bus highway" BRT corridor. One reason why ART is applied is that its name with "rail transit" is more eye-catching than other cities that build BRT corridors. CRRC continued to use the name "rail transit" when it found that it was beneficial to improve sales.
If you go back to the early years of the twentieth century, the term “trackless tram” was sometimes used for trolleybuses.
Gotta agree that the "Trackless Tram" can cause a huge amount of problems when it comes to the blending in with the traffic and would blow the budget sky high.
@lwf51 for sure, but that’s not what this is!
Last i checked regular trams do have the ability to mix with traffic anyway.
And are also predictable.
Hi Reese, since you mentioned watching the video on Nebula: I have a subscription, but almost never watch videos there, because they are simply slow. They are often "buffering", which brings me back to the Internet before CZcams existed. Most videos there are impossible to watch without downloading using a 3rd party app. Since Nebula has far fewer creators than CZcams, maybe you will be able to bring this up with the platform maintainers. If the issues are fixed, there will be almost no reason to go back here (except the comments of course). Cheers!
Hi there my understanding is that some major technical improvements are currently being made to the platform, so this should be a problem for not much longer!
Living in Silicon Valley is very frustrating because our largest local transit agency in the south bay, the Santa Clara VTA, is currently studying a transit project to connect the main train station in San Jose to Cupertino by a fully grade separated transit option of some kind. Unfortunately... they've also specified that they do NOT want to use any traditional rail system, and so they've requested ideas from multiple companies (many of them startups that have never built a mass transit system anywhere), and most of the suggestions are ridiculous gadgetbahns with pathetically small peak hourly rider capacity. The highest throughput by far of the proposals I've seen was... a monorail.
Trackless trams are a 'solution' in search of a problem. If you need the capacity that rail can offer then you also need rails, because steel rails, ideally accompanied by steel wheels, are hard wearing. Road wheels and tarmac aren't, and even with the comparatively light load and lower frequency, there have been multiple instances of these systems rapidly running into issues with the road surface wearing out, because it can't withstand multiple heavy vehicles all traversing exactly the same path, all day, every day. Heck, even the 'kneeling' bus that stops near my mom's house has made itself a dent in the road, because it has to always stop in the same place. It only has to 3/4-kneel now to line up with the sidewalk, the dent is 2" deep.
And while the original video pushes the 'point' that NY has approximately 10x the number of bus routes as subway lines, what's the capacity/hour of those bus lines? If they run less frequently and use (much) smaller vehicles, its not hard to imagine it might be significantly lower than the subway. Trains are good at moving lots of people efficiently, ideally over middling distances for the speeds involved so there aren't too many stops. So much so, that if the demand exceeds capacity, the only real solution is more trains, bigger trains, or ultimately a new line to add capacity. Buses are slower, less efficient, and have a fraction of the capacity but are infinitely more flexible. Almost tailor made of lower demand routes or feeders. And buses can be improved over diesel with battery/hydogen-hybrid/trolley-corridors etc. Light rail falls somewhere between the two, depending on the exact implementation.
The trackless tram gadgetbahn isn't even jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none, it manages to combine almost all the downside of all the 'conventional' systems, which including no advantages of its own. Excess complexity isn't an advantage, it's a flaw.