FIFA Ratings Have a HUGE Racial Bias
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- A study has come out claiming that the video game FIFA’s ratings “correlate with racial stereotypes” to use their own words. This is an issue, both conscious and unconscious, that plagues the football // soccer world and has since the sport began, so we dig into all the reasons that this major rating discrepancy exists in FIFA.
The issue with FIFA having such a large discrepancy in rating due to some element of what we assume is subconscious bias is it enforces the stereotypes that already exist in the world for a younger generation of football // soccer fans that learn about the world through the game. This then creates a new generation that keeps these things going. So, here’s the situation, help be a part of the change.
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I've never understood why FIFA doesn't just base sprint speed on actual data. Something that was often brought up in the past was Messi would have a significantly higher pace than Rooney, despite Rooney consistently recording faster speeds each season. Unlike other attributes which could be much more complicated to calculate, this is one where there is a simple number you can point to
They don't base things on sprint data because then they'd have to properly address the overpowered role pace has in their games while trying to convince kids to buy the next card with five star skills.
Its reasonable. I think its more complex than 1 set time where you go all out for 1 sprint. A better comparison is perhaps recording number of sprints per game each has then calculating top average speeds. something which I think is becoming easier to record with players having GPS chips on them recording such data. The argument of being data driven is important. Just think doing so on a football pitch is better.
Good examples of this is in the NFL where jump and sprint speds are measured. Doing that at a training sight anr doing it in a clutch game is vastly different.. but yeh.. complicated.
a player reaching a speed of 35km/h once in a season is technically faster than someone who makes several 34.7km/h sprints in a game
but giving the second player a higher pace score would better represent the player
Laziness. I think every stat should be based on from previous 30 games . They should come up with a tool to do it automatically. Remove all the bias , w9uld be more fun actually
to some extent they can't because of balance. For example if Rudiger actually had 99 sprint speed in game people would break their controllers. So I think in general they buff wide players and nerf central ones.
I think it is a real shame that the Fifa study only focussed on the top 88 players. Because I'm sure that there's going to be way more racial bias in the lower rated players who are scouted less. Fifa basically just guesses their attributes, so you'd expect a lot more bias
There probably won't because they are more likely to just use the numbers instead of manually rating players.
Also the tiniest teams get rated by themselves and fifa just copy’s their “homework”
Thank you for using my name in your comment I really appreciate
@@barneythepurpledinosaur7002 May I ask what you mean by that? In what way do teams rate themselves in Fifa? Surely a random 4th division club can't just send a text file to EA with some made up ratings they'd like their players to have?
I remember reading somewhere that some football analysts don't even watch video footage or photos of the players they're analysing, to avoid stereotypical biases. They simply analyse the numbers. The best example I can think of is William Carvalho, who was always being portrayed as a strong, athletic, big defensive midfielder, when in reality he was a technical and intelligent players, very similar to Sergio Busquets.
I can t agree with you, im portuguese and if u ask anyone here, the last thing we are going to tell you is that that he is athletic xD, but he trully is an intelligent player.
@@davidpereira8960 That's precisely what I'm saying. There was a misconception in his early days that he was some sort of athletic beast defensive midfielder, when in reality he was not. If he were white no one would've simply assumed that he's athletic because he's big.
In baseball there is a very set scouting system where every attribute is graded from 20 to 80. The Moneyball Oakland A's famously evaluated players like they were just a collection of numbers and found great success. I'd imagine that it's becoming common in football now too.
To add to this, even when they watch matches, they see something like the top down view from FM. No skin colour, even the jerseys are similarly colored, because apparently that can also bias a human.
@JM I don't think moneyball would work in football. Because there are so many factors other than stats that you have to watch it in the game. Like assists, if you pass it 1 meter it still counts as same as if you make a brilliant 10-meter through pass. IIRC, Liverpool has been using moneyball for the past 10 years but their players are often not that good enough for Liverpool. Their recent success is because of Klopp, not moneyball.
One of the biggest example of this was Koulibaly, who should be a highly scouted player given that he had one of the highest ratings in the game. At Napoli he was known for his skill on the ball and his exceptional passing, yet they gave him a passing rating of 51. I always felt like this rating was biased in a way.
Always wondered about that, but for some reason Serie A defenders have poor passing stats generally.
@@shockwave.studios that is not racial i believe. In Serie A center backs usually aren't tasked with playmaking and you could say: 'oh this is nowhere'. Well, in Serie A the DMs are tasked with playmaking more than anywhere else.
De Ligt was great at ball playing in ajax, but now? He is just physicality and if we task him with ball playing in the national team he makes so many mistakes. I think there are many problems, but i don't necessarily think its all racial.
In terms of fifa being black would also be better if it was racial. Pace and physical are the only 2 stats that really matter...
I think it has more to with player bias, Lukaku is very strong. No one will disagree, but is he a great ball handler? Not that good. Lautaro is less strong, but a way better dribbler. The difference for their base cards in game arent big, but their styles do differ a lot.
Also no one is rating Okocha for his physical prowess. He's known as a dribbler. To make the card usable they added pace
Yeah he clearly showed that great passing at chelsea
@@DaddyHasler Chelsea is a shit show rn
Exactly. They gave him a lower rating cause he's BLACK!
I just think that's a reflection of society rather than football itself
Does that really matter? Football is a reflection of society in many ways, so explaining it one way or the other doesn't make a lot of difference.
Just because the same issues exist in wider society doesn't mean we shouldn't be highlighting them in Football. Football has as a huge reach and what's being said in commentary has a large influence on what people think. Starting to tackle the issue by removing these subconscious racial biases from games and commentary is a step in the right direction.
Sorry if you didn't intend to be dismissive of the the video but your comment is quite short a vague.
I agree, and think often public discourse around racial bias and racism gets things the wrong way round. For instance racism is often seen as something that needs to get tackled in sports first to drive change at a government level while attention is taken away from structural biases that come from a government policy.
However I think sports may be a way to engage people who would otherwise not engage in these debates. They may better see it in football, something relatable to them than say, racial bias in the criminal justice system or housing.
I'm pretty confident if we lived under a more progressive government, that pursued policies that better met public needs, over time you would see better cultures forming on the terraces and in media. Football racism and hooliganism is very much a symptom of a deeper malaise in society and seems to ebb and flow as the economy goes up and down. 80s hooliganism associated with mass unemployment. Recent resurgence of instances is during an extended period of growing economic inequality and stagnant wages.
As for commentary, you'd like to think the next generation of commentators will be more aware of their biases, as this current generation is markedly better than the previous.
I should stop distracting myself with this and get back to work now lol
@Martini88 it makes a difference. Because what my buddy here is saying is that it doesn't reflect reality, it reflects society's prejudice and preconceptions.
@@NachoBearYeah Where/when does he say that?
I remember some commentator talking about pogba whose one of the most technical player but all he spoke about is how strong he is
pogbas a difficult one, because he is strong and powerful, but also one of the most technicall gifted and intelligent players of the last decade
in the Premier league, there was a massive bias against Pogba, especially the commentator Graeme Souness. in the press, there was more about his hairstyles than his sports ability. if a game was won, there was no mention of pogba. if a game was lost, it was suddenly pogbas fault. this was exacerbated by Graeme Souness' post match analysis.
This is definitely the best example to me. Pogba is not particularly fast or strong or athletic in anyway. He is supremely technically gifted. He currently has 67 pace and 80 physical on FIFA - when he broke through at Juventus he had 77 pace and 87 physical. Now I dont think he's got slower and weaker since then - I'm pretty sure that's FIFA ratings accurately readjusting when he proved to the Prem, and those original ratings of him in Italy definitely had a bias towards his athleticism
@@cshaffrey3438his stats on the field are ass, that’s all. You sound like this dude didn’t become a 100mil flop who played bad under several managers. His 67 pace is a representation of his laziness and poor performance irl.
EA even adjusted his workrates from high/medium to medium/low which again shows why the made that decision.
He also had good technical stats to begin with!!!?? It’s not like they switched his pace and decision making then called it a day. Dude is a menace for France and used to be in Juve, in Mu ,apparently, he sticked to having more hairstyles than assist (that’s why prem commentators are that “biased”, because they are not, it was truth at the time period)
Pogba had his stats decreased naturally, close to how he is playing irl: gifted player with worsened work ethic. No double layers here imo
@@melodiclogic9904 Pogba was picked on imo because he played walking football at a time when united were known for having one of the least amount of pressures on the ball out of any team in the league, all while City & Liverpool were incredibly successful for their high pressing game. Pogba at one point had the worst running stats out of any player who had played more than 5/10 games (something like that). The criticism of Pogba was completely warranted.
It would be interesting to see if FM balances it more than FIFA, just because of the bigger number of attributes and categories or if there's still a bias in the way they categorize the players.
It does not
@@n0body550 Wow great argument, really loved when you explained it 👍
It's like Bill Burr once said "If you read a defense, white or black, that's an intelligent move. But if you jump over 4 other players and slam the ball into the basket, some other guy isn't thinking 'damn, why didn't I think of doing that' ".
88 players is a pretty small sample size to be fair, considering how many players there are in the game, so I'm hesitant to rag on EA here. I'll just continue to criticise their terrible game before I call them racist.
If anything it favors black players
People are different… nothing wrong with that. I am Mexican, I was on varsity track sprint team in high school. Almost every race I was the only non black sprinter. As long as people aren’t being racist about it
Great video Z, and good job covering all your bases! Really enjoying the type of content you're puttig out lately. Doing justice to the fact that you're knowledgeable about a lot more than just FM - keep it up!
Watch the video, it absolutely talks about whatever you immediately came here to comment about even if you are sure it doesn’t, I promise it does
Your head is up your ass a bit here.
1st: the study did not include position, (the largest factor in where these stats are placed)
2nd: Sample size, Ronaldo and Messi are literally 5% of the sample for one of the 2 groups
3rd: Truth Vs Bias,
World cup- first EVER top 4 for an African nation this year
Club world cup- only been won by a European or Brazilian team.
ELO international rankings (no FIFA bias)- just 1 African team (Morocco) in the top 30 and non in the top 15.
4th Popularity bias/Bias for money
Messi and Ronaldo alone will cause massive bias in the sample
Messi for example scores just over 10% of free kicks (which is not elite) DESPITE THIS Messi, is 2nd place for free kicks in FIFA 23.
I don't think you can blame EA for giving Messi the 2nd highest FK rating seeing how many he has scored since 2016.
Yes, that's why we always have a white winner of the 100m race. Oh, wait.
In what way is this racist? Fifa has a massive team of analysts that deduce the most accurate way to portray a player in the Fifa games. Sure, there may be a correlation between black players and physicality, but how is that Fifa's fault? What way is there to tell if there is an element of racism in deciding a player's ratings?
shhh..... We can't say that some ethnicities are genetically predisposed of being athletic.
Phrases such as crafty and sneaky are used differently depending on the circumstances of the game in question. And I've seen it being applied to both sides of the coin. Using cherry picked clips to over generalize is unfair and illogical.
Great vid Z, really interesting and eye opening. Wouldn't mind more sports-sciency videos moving forward if they're this good!
Have they considered that, by any chance, the average black player may be faster and stronger than the average white player? There are plenty of players that go against the rule, and plenty of biological evidence for it. You think about the fastest players in premier league history. The top 4 fastest sprints ever recorded in the premier league are by Aubameyang, Rudiger, Salah and Adama Traore. Not much racial diversity there. Also, if you think at right now some of the best midfielders in the world (a position heavily associated to technique and iq), outside of the likes of Ngolo Kante and Paul Pogba the names that most probably come to mind are KDB, Kimmich, Pedri, Bellingham, Bernardo Silva, Modric, Bruno Fernandes, Thiago, etc… of course there are countless players that don’t conform to this generalisation, and it’s a conversation that shouldn’t really be brought up
Agreed
Tchouaméni, Camavinga, Moussa, Makelele, Ramires, Partey, Thiago, are all players/former-players with African ancestry.
The sneaky vs crafty example feels like an outlier in that the weasley and sneaky sentence was mostly just wordplay more than a comment on their physique, agree with everything else
Amazing video Z, would love to see more videos about this scientific and sociological side of football, you clearly have studied some of it and could give us more information. Thanks and keep the good work. Hug from Brazil
I'll always remember the commentary for one of Sancho's first Dortmund goal contributions. He gets the ball on the break, and even though he's never been a player known for his speed, and always been a technically excellent player, the commentator shouts something like "and the ball gets to Sancho with his speed".
you're acting as if he's slow. His recorded top speed is around like 34.6 km/h.
@@user-pf9hf9il4z these people aren't interested in honesty and truth, but agenda and ideology. They'll find a single faster white guy and act like that anecdotal evidence proves a larger trend. Its so anti intellectual, but its wrapped in pseudoscience speak, so the average gen z American buys into it, due to a poor understanding of statistical methodology.
He’s a nippy winger you bellend, not farce to say he’s got speed
@@user-pf9hf9il4z It's hard to describe, but the commentator said it like he was Usain Bolt.
@DB Did you not watch the video? I'm just providing an example I noticed.
I feel this isn't really a FIFA problem, it's a football problem. You don't hear a black footballer being called "intelligent" or similar adjectives as much compared to a non-black footballer
Edit: I should watch the video, he specifically talks about this lmao
But that is not problem at all, just different players with different traits, that's it.
Here’s a counter point. How many of the elite playmakers are black in the premier league? Basically none. Not sure why that is but you can’t describe someone as such without them having the sufficient traits. For example de bruyne, odegaard, Maddison. All white.
@@tmage23 players are talked about in terms of their best traits. period
I think Zealand referred to this when talking about Soccernomics/socioeconomic factors. Players from African nations are more likely to be trained on poorer pitches and poorer facilities which don’t allow technical ability to be trained or valued as much as in a European nations. Plus Pogba, Partey and Kante exist
@@beadle111gaming bruh you got Kanté
Well considering science on race has been forbidden for 80+ years, we are just speculating.
damn all the3 dribblers come from brazil , EA must be racist
I think there should be a similar study conducted of differences in racial groups when it comes to development in academies because it is well known to anyone who has studied human development that people of African descent reach maturity at younger ages so in an academy setting where the youth teams are seeking out the best players for the age group they will look to find the "strongest" players of that age group to secure themselves wins at the age level by being more physically dominant. It's clearly a trend in youth academies all over the world to favour players of African descent with outstanding physical attributes for their age group but once players of other racial groups catch up in maturity and development these attributes that made them stand out are less outstanding in comparison to others who have then hit their development later. There are so many cases of players of African descent impressing at youth levels but when they reach first team standard they can't replicate the results as they are at that stage shown to be ineffective when competing against opposition of similar maturity. As opposed to the physical mismatch they experienced during their days in youth academies.
The book “The Lost Boys” covers this quite well, African boys are swept up by European academies and deemed surplus to requirements when they reach 15-17, left destitute on the streets of Europe
My man, people of African descent do not reach maturity at a younger age. There is some evidence that precocious puberty is more prevalent in people of color, and how that might be linked to obesity or other nutritional factors. There is some evidence that Black Americans brains "age" faster (likely because of society pressures). There's a study that skeletal growth happens more quickly in African AND Asian people than Europeans (again, based on environmental and nutritional factors) But this blanket statement that anybody of "African descent" (whatever that means) reaches "maturity" faster (whatever that means) and then pinging that onto some kind of "mismatch" argument for youth players is just.. bonkers.
In any event, there is a TON of evidence that Black people are *perceived as older* by white folks in authority position and that leads to a lot of over punishment (and worse) of black children. And so I comment just to point out to anybody reading this that this kind of thinking directly, if unintentionally, leads to actual violence and death of Black children who people and cops think have somehow reached a more mature/dangerous/criminally culpable and shootable age than a similarly aged white child.
Also, as a side note, the logic here doesn't hold up to the problem being discussed: If African players were maturing faster, then getting caught up to, and being unable to maintain their performance without the benefit of your made up "physical mismatch"... then FIFA and other sports commentators would be praising the *physical* skills of the European players who are no longer at an alleged physical disadvantage. But, we don't see that. SO maybe you can see that your argument about Black people being "ineffective when competing against opposition of similar maturity" literally failed to hold up through an entire paragraph.
💯
Black people generally are faster, stronger and can jump higher so it’s understandable
Can’t think though
Wow you’re saying people see some sort of pattern about various groups and this influences decision making? I’m shocked, truly shocked. I can’t believe it.
I’ll make sure to think before I praise a white player someone might get offended, worlds gone mad.
I always had this impression when I play FIFA with my brother. Conversation looks like this:
A: Damn, that guy is fast
B: Yeah, he is black
A: Makes sense
Bruh 😂😂😂
Unknown black winger = fast
@@deraokoli7746 Exactly
Why can't we just acknowledge that people of certain descents, in high-level sports and on average, are a bit faster and possible stronger than others.
There are enough studies on this topic and it is clearly visible in sports such as running (both long distance and sprinting).
Instead, we go look for rascim in the attributes of FIFA players, and completely ignore this.
This study is pointless
it cant be that it reflect that black players just have those stats more ?
If you look a sprinting stats (as it's hard to objectively number other stats) black players often have higher pace stats than their white counterparts who are just as quick, or faster. And on the other hand, players like Naby Keita don't get recognised for their skill because his attributes don't fit the stereotype.
@DB Walker really isn't black mate.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They aren't just "made up". And I don't see anything wrong with them. We're all different.
It's all well and good until people systematically assume you're less intelligent than you are, or less athletic than you actually are, because of what you look like -- the genetic differences are minimal in relation to the disparity of the average ratings, I explain it in the video
@@ZealandonYT Of course ! In reality - those differences are "overall minimal", but for comedic effect, they're being blown out of proportion, very often. Sports commentary, being a sort of an "entertainment", is bound to have "common tongue" with other sets of entertainment, comedy being one of them.
I agree that sports commentary should try do better than use "at first glance" terminology when describing player attributes, but it's a case of "trying to bring more people to watch/follow a certain sport" that dictates this. I'd be perfectly fine with more "close-up" commentary, that knows the players/tactics/sport in depth, but I fear that this would not be of interest to the general public.
It's the curse of "generic media outlet, covering a sport". If you listen to old F1 casts, you could apply the same for the nationalities of the drivers, as an example.
It's good that you pointed out the facilities and coaching thing. That's the reason why in general we get African and lower tier players having more physicals than game sense.
Something to consider is position as well. How many top black wingers are there? How many top black cams? That might point out so something
Wingers Id say vini Jr, saka, sterling, mane, sane, coman, Rashford, and so many more have been or are world class at points.
But cam is a lot harder.
Another vague variable that doesn't seem controlled is how do you define lighter and darker?
So for each of these studies it is different, my recollection from reading them is that the soccer/football study was done based off of African descent and European descent, whereas the march madness one was done using only the visible skin color put onto one side of the line or the other
I mean lets be honest, if you're Brazilian, no one wants to be like David Luis.
if i were conducting a study into racial bias in football i would simply not use a sample size of exactly 88
Then you wouldn't make a controversial video for clicks about a problem that doesn't exist
@@oskarlisinski8807 The >88< flew over your head right?
@@gandalf_thegrey How many professional footballers make up the Premier League?
Facilities play a huge role. Why are Spanish player on the whole so much more technically good than many others? The facilities available to young players are, on average much better than, say, the UK. It would be interesting to see what is said/reported about players from, say, the 80's and 90's Great Ajax sides that had a very diverse mix of incredible players. Also, are there any analytics about what Black commentators in predominantly Black countries emphasise when referring to players of different ethnicity?
You pose some interesting thoughts: I'd be particularly interested in the study you suggest on Black commentators in predominantly Black countries.
The Ajax element is also interesting. When I remember discussions of the players (mostly when they had moved to larger clubs in the mid to late 90s) you did have a divide between the white players - the de Boers, Bergkamp, Witschge - for whom emphasis was placed on ball skills and black players - Davids, Kluivert, Seedorf - for whom emphasis was placed on physicality (despite each being as good on the ball, as far as I'm concerned, as their white counterparts).
@@SamuelButcher Interesting, The Ajax element I recall slightly differently (although, I think Bergkamp is unfair to compare to any of the others, regardless of race, on ball skills as sometimes he was just ridiculous). Gullit was especially commended for both physicality and technique. Ronald Koeman was not spoken of well for his athletic ability because he was... basically a brick with incredible passing skills. Aron Winter was known as a very gifted technician, as was Kanu and later Seedorf.
My experience of cricket commentating (which I hear much more of from asian sub-continent and caribean commentators than in any other sport I follow) would suggest bias is universal. Spin bowlers from the sub-continent are the ones with the technique: Murathitheran, Harbhajan, Kumble. Akram and Younis the magicians with the reverse swinging ball, Tendulkar, Laxman, Jayawardena etc... the most technical batsmen.
There may be an argument to be made that the fifa scouting/programming team display a particular bias in football, but without including evidence/stats from studies of Black commentators in predominantly Black countries, I'm not sure the conclusions regarding media coverage can be universally applied across the globe.
Brazilians play on trash fields with balls made of leather and do fine with the technical aspects, it's more about culture than just facilities.
@@GabrielP2R True, but Spanish facilities produced tika taka passing game which is more possible on good ground. Brazilians have more individual technical skill which is what you would expect having to control the ball on trash fields.
@@iffler2542 it's not about facilities, it's completely cultural.
The mindset of passing a lot was something evolved from total football and taken to the extreme at Barcelona with the influence of Cruyff, Guardiola etc.
Data taken out of context with a bias in order to prove a bias. Sounds legit. 👍
Without wanting to seem patronising or as though I’m kissing your arse it was genuinely extremely pleasant and refreshing to have a video when a US citizen was discussing race and ethnicity in a balanced and knowledgable manner instead of resorting to regurgitating cliches or the zeitgeist. Bravo
Can’t call it a racial stereotype when scientifically in terms of these traits is accurate in relation to skin tone and where they originated from or their heritage etc etc
Exactly.
But there are players that are or were incredibly technical and intelligent and they aren't given the corresponding fifa stats or praise in the media
I remember a Arsenal player, Joel Campbell. Commentary team hyped his pace and power every chance they got, I've seen few more sluggish young wingers in the premier league than him. It's the laziness that bothers me, you see it in other areas of sport where factual coverage is lacking too. It becomes uncomfortable listening to it, lies that grind against what is unfolding in front of you.
It used to be totally non controversial and accepted that different races have different muscle mass numbers on average. Did the science change or is science racist?
Science continually changes. That's the point of science.... Trying to disprove a hypothesis
Science is racist. It's 2023, bro...
I'm glad you mentioned the fast twitch muscles because it's a real thing, and also how culturally we gravitate to certain sports. In Jamaica, during lunchtime in primary school, we would just line up and race either for a full ass hour. Sprinting 60-80 metres every day for 6years made us all want to be track athletes at some point.
In the list of top sprint speed footballers that you showed 7/10 are darker skinned despite white players being the majority demographic. this doesn’t support your argument it shows that race seems to actually be having a large affect when it comes to sprint speed. Since this is the case commentators without any bias would be expected to describe darker skinned players as pacy more often than white players because it is a fact that they are.
Great video Zealand!
It’s almost like west Africans have better fast twitch muscle fibres making them quicker and stronger. Definitely racism like
Fast twitch has nothing to do with strength, I'd argue they have speed but not strength
The fastest runners in the world are black... maybe its not bias, but fact
It's the same in most football games. Even football manager, every African player had horrible mental stats but 18 pace, even players who have completely different profiles IRL
With Football Manager specifically, I'd be interested to know if this applies to regens / newgens in a save, or just to real life players?
@@mastertrams Both, there was a Reddit post a few years ago adressing the same issue. The OP conclusion was the same as the FIFA 20 study, both for IRL players and for regens as well.
One of the reasons for this is that pace plays such a huge role in current ability that giving those rapid players higher mentals will overrate their overall ability 😊
@@deraokoli7746 physical attributes should be more random. A guy who make the UKs Olympic sprinting team was playing 6th tier football. Strength, pace, acceleration and other ones are peppered throughout
yessssssssssss, mentals in the mud but ouuu he can run fast, as if that’s their entire game.
Loving the recent content! The break sometimes from fm content is great, and lots of very big topics that should be talked about more!
Black people and non-black people have differences, shocking. The reason we have faster and stronger black people in football must be racial bias, surely. In other news, NBA is literally filled with black people because the society is racially biased towards white people and there is Systemic Black Racism, and the NBA teams are signing players based solely on color of a player's skin, not their ability.
Best technical players are usually from South America, fastest and strongest players are usually from Africa, these are just facts.
😑You ether haven't watched the video, or are too dim to understand it.
I did a paper about this in college for a sports and sociology class. I found a bunch of sources that found similar findings for other sports in the United States.
This is just jumping to conclusions and a hasty generalization. There are many other factors as to why certain things are said or why cards have certain stats. I'm hesitant to jump to racial conclusions because this isn't racial justice , it's merely a toxic way of accusing people without sufficient evidence. Very cultural marxist.
Cultural Marxist sound weird for something that the CIA loves doing 🤔
Hi, my friend, who is of southern African descent, said on average people of South and west African descent produce on average more testosterone which would add to proving the stereotype. I can’t remember the study he cited for it.
This is a thing in american football as well. I was a white runningback and my high school coach refused to play me because he said that white guys aren't fast enough to run the ball. I averaged 340 rushing yards a game in 8th grade. He single-handedly stopped my football career
If you could avoid tacklers as well as you avoided the point of this video, you'd be in the NFL. Impressive.
@@SamuelButcher 😂😂
Those stats aren't even far apart from one another, it seems very even really.
Well yeah. These ratings are accurate.
Black players are usually faster but less technical, that's biologie
Less technical??? The most technical players I can think of are black, lol...
As someone who used to do the fifa ratings for Peterboro and contribute to other English club sides, you’d be surprised how little goes into deciding most ratings. Just needs peer reviewing and a little bit of evidence. Also why ratings lag a bit as well (aka a youngster bursting onto the scene stays low rated whereas a washed up former great stays high rated).
It’s a tough one really as there isn’t really a white equivalent of someone like Yaya Toure for example, so there probably is some genetics at play. In terms of the white players, I suspect some have had a more priveliged and formal coaching in their formative years and so maybe developed more tactical intelligence?
I think a more interesting study would be the stats of all players under 80 overall in fifa, where ratings adjusters can simply generalize players based on preconceived notions
The goat youtuber.
At some point people need to realise that there is a significant difference at the top level (and any level really) between athletes of different races. Watch any athletics event, marathons are dominated by Kenya (they have a proven racial advantage in long distance running), with sprinters the field is usually 80%+ black if not all.
We are not clones of each other. Evolution while still a theory, is basically fact at this point.
Different species of the same animals exist with completely different functions and physiology. While humans haven't had the same amount of time to diverge, its very clear that we've had enough to already make a difference.
Otherwise you somehow have to explain why certain races of Asian people literally do not have BO and ear wax that is completely different to the rest of the world. You have to explain why most black people (not just Africans but Hawaiians, Native Australian and Native New Zealanders/Islanders have massive medical issues with things like blood pressure.
We are different in more than just skin colour. In some cases we've had over 60,000 years of separation.
Yet people are surprised that some races have tangible differences in physical attributes? And even more surprised when people are "unconsciously mentioning them".
There are obviously outliers for every race, but the reality is certain races statistically have physiological limits. Find me 10 Indian men over 7ft for example; in a country of 1 billion+ - while you can find more than that in any state in America.
I'm sick of having to pretend like we're all EXACTLY THE SAME. We aren't on an individual basis and we aren't on a statistical racial basis... and that's perfectly fine. Some people might be stronger and faster sprinters, while others might be more laterally agile, others might have natural coordination with both feet while other people might naturally be tall and have extremely long arms.
Sport is entirely based on merit (maybe not these days with money being more important) and thankfully Football is so varied that tall or small, slow or fast can be superstars.
Be thankful its not like the American big 3 sports where physiology determines basically everything - how fast you can pitch - how tall are - how strong and how fast you are. Those three attributes exclude 99% of the general population from Baseball/Basketball/American Football.
Meanwhile in football you have players like Toni Kroos who was never fast, isn't amazingly tall or strong. Jordan Pickford who's "tiny" for a goalkeeper but still got where he is. Peter Crouch a slow giant. Adama Traore who not having anything but speed and strength still made it to the top.
Amazing comment mate, it’s a shame people don’t realise this, and instantly claim “racism” for anything. I hate the fact that the word ‘stereotype’ is used against EA here, when it’s literally physiological fact.
What I really want to understand is where is the line between racial bias and factually correct. Is it biased to state that black premier league players are generally stronger and faster than white ones despite that being accurate? Trying to think of an example where I have no actual information other than visual I would say Ibrahima Konate is stronger and more physically dominant than Sven Botman. Where is the crossover between me making assumptive observations and me being racist
The crossover is your own skin color. If youre black its not racist to say anything you want, if youre white anything you say is racist. Thanks, America
I love listening to a grad student talk about their research area
I like your big head! Love the latest different types of content that involves research! Keep up the good work!💪🏻
One stereotype is that Black Players are more physical than White Players when it comes to Football ⚽.
Thanks to Adama Traore for proving this wrong.
lol
excellent video, but still if you look at the top 100 sprinters of all time about 4 of them are white so there is a genetic difference and it does take a fact, secondly, you showed some stats that show that in football the fastest player this year are mostly white but you have to take in fact that about 70 percent of football players are white so you need to show a stat that shows compared to 100 players or just compare it with the percentage of white players, about the technical aspect I think in general white players are more technical because they have a bigger chance at competing in a better academy with better coaches, and after all of this I think you are right, there is some racism in football but I am not sure that FIFA are racist in this case.
But black people are generally stronger, faster and usually less skilled. Modern day life shows this, history shows this, everything shows this. It's not even a controversy
🤨just casually posting strait up racism, yikes
@@lord6162 perhaps said a bit that way but generally factual. given that blacks have lower socioeconomic status the AVERAGE is more likely to be lower. Sure, even in the world at large, there are many skilled black people but due to the exorbitant amount of lesser educated and economically endowed black people, the average will naturally be lower.
...so as a black man I have to simply try and be one of those skilled ones and perhaps one day that tendency can change...
@@lord6162 go scream at the law of physics for the universe we exist in while youre at it
Thanks for bringing to everyone's attention that we should praise Traore's intelligence instead of his average physique
/sarcasm haha
I've also noticed that it's often common to compare a player to another player with the same skin colour. You rarely see a black player being labeled the new messi, or a white player being labeled the new P. Vieira (except Rooney, who was the "white Pele").
Wasn't Jay-Jay Okocha literally nicknamed the African Maradona?
What is this logic.. people aren’t compared to Messi because they’re simply not as good as Messi.
@@ekzxty that is not the point. Feel free to switch out Messi to any other white player
@@ventricity I still don’t understand your logic. If a football player isn’t similar to another, they shouldn’t be compared. It’s like saying Alejandro Garnacho is the next Virgil Van Dijk, or Tyrell Malacia is the next Edinson Cavani.
This also relates to player positions. If you look at the top five leagues, darker-skinned players are more likely to be in the stereotypically "physical" positions e.g. center-backs, full-backs, and strikers, sometimes defensive midfielders, while lighter-skinned players are more likely to be in the ones that stereotypically require good decision-making and technical attributes, e.g. midfielders and goalkeepers among others. Are white people just better midfielders than black people and black people just better cb's than white people? Not at all; from a very young age implicit bias from scouts and coaches can help steer people with different skin tones towards specific roles, which can make these positions disproportionately represented by people with those skin-tones.
7:17 but this class ceiling makes the Fifa study unrealiable when you only look at an unmeaninful sample size.
The other references you give are way more more reliable and super meaningful, they come to a similar conclusion (there is indeed racial bias in how we perceive football players of different races) but dont go out there and demonize someone for it as if they are following a concious racial agenda. The regular ass commentator (at least here in germany) is always fire and flame for social positionings, exclamations of equality etc. If you call them out on being biased in a certain way they will take that input in a try to change that - to be less biased and influenced by looks. At this world cup alone i think 2 or 3 experts have said something insensitive (Sandro Wagner for example exlaimed "When you see the guys in the bathrobes stand up [you know shit hits the fan] ....", he got alot of backlash, he apologized and did go on to never disrespecting Arab culture again, short of losing his job altogether)
The other study just basically says Fifa is racist. I dont defend that shithole of a franchise (or the organisation behind the name) the Fifa openly holds some positions i genuienly disagree with and they are not good guys. But that conclusion is just far fetched.
I will certainly dig deeping into the actual studies you have shown, they are super interesting and i hope i can learn something.
Well, the positioning of players matter. If you analyze 1 million of 'black' players vs 1 million 'white' players and it turns out that we have 500k wingers of African heritage vs 200k wing positions for 'whities' then here you go.
Also, definition of 'white' is required. Where do latin american players go? Vinicious Jr looks pretty Cameroonian but Roberto Carlos is not; both are hellishly quick
The obvious answer is that there's some truth to the stereotypes and that's exacerbated by disproportionate representation of players of certain races in different positions on the pitch, especially if you zero in on the top few players, imo.
edit: and it seems that the significant effect is mostly by the way of praising darker skinned players for their physicality anyhow. there's a reason why most marathon winners descend from Kenya
People have far too much time on their hands
Brilliant vid Z 💙
I am out in rural Western Australia coaching predominantly Indigenous Australian children soccer at the school I teach at (post-world cup hype is strong) and this video definitely opened up my eyes.
It's honestly a blank canvas out here tactically and technically because there is barely any exposure to the game. This is a rich Aussie Rules, Rugby and Basketball country for the indigenous. Not much soccer but I see the potential, especially in goalkeeping due to other sports played. So much natural talent athletically, but hopefully can keep exposing this beautiful game ❤️
It’s true black players are usually tagged with strength while white players are tagged with creativity 😢
This is the type of excellent work I subscribed for. Highlighting unconscious things we don't realise until pointed out, incredibly important.
The problem is with the players and their development, not with people who are aware of different attributes that are taught or gained in different upbringings.
I will always remember one of my black friends telling me that "black people will always be better at sport because we're genetically stronger than white people" and I never questioned him or thought about it until this moment.
Go find black monopoly on power lifting. You'll be suprise that Asians are more stronger than them 😂
Imagine white people saying the opposite 😂😂😂 the outrage would never end
But you tell them they’re not as smart, they’ll go cry to their ✡️ masters
@@bansnabs5523 bit racist eh
@@Crackparty803 yep, hating your enemy who hates you is racist
Only issue I have is how for example, the Spanish are known for their technical ability, the tiki taka style of play and ability. Whereas other nations have different "personalities". It's the style of play for these different nations. If you look at Spain and compare them to some country who's population is primarily a different race than Spain and are also known for being say physically strong and fast then obviously you'd have more people saying the Spanish are very good technically and ____ nation's players are very fast and strong. So there's not enough information for me looking at stuff like that. Maybe consider Spanish born people of color and Spanish born white people (to exclude immigrants who may have adopted their former countries style before immigrating) and do the same comparison on how they are perceived. That would be much more conclusive for me.
That's actually a very good point. Most countries have a majority of white or black players and most countries also have a "football identity" which is going to be focussed on in training early onwards so I think it'd be really interesting to see if there's as strong of a difference when looking at single countries at a time.
I mean...look at the Olympics, not many white sprinters winning golds in the 100 m races
That said I imagine having to create thousands of player profiles and stats of fairly unknown individuals they just get lazy and default into presets they made, which explains these archetypes being repeated so much when you are playing ultimate team and start with those 60-something players.
So, did they point to certain players who's stats were wrong? If not, then it's not bias just reality.
It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that this occurs in sports, which it occurs in so many facets of life in general.
The problem with use of selected statistics to try explain away uncomfortable narratives, is it doesn't correspond with reality. From Rift Valley runners having better stamina, to SubSaharan athletes dominating sprint and power events in coutries with majority caucasian, Hispanic or Asian populations (Naomi Osaka, Mo Farah, most of the French League Une etc); the role of genetics is relevant. I realise 'unconscious bias' is a huge fad in the US currently, but remember, feelings don't change facts.
What's the point you're getting at, can you clarify?
@@scintilla1_1 the point is biological reality is not racist, its just reality. You can go scream at the laws of physics for the universe you exist in all you want
@@franciscloutier5387 But that's the point these studies are making aren't they? They aren't "defying biological reality" or "screaming at the laws of the universe for existing" which by the way is a weird analogy that is very distant from racial characteristics, but you do you, I guess. Anyways academic and scientific studies are conducted to test if these pseudo theories about reality and biological human differences when it comes to race, which typically stem from century-old eugenics propaganda, are true in any way shape, or form. Saying black athletes are better in certain aspects because uh I don't know "genetics" I guess, isn't smart or accurate. Analyzing reality as it is based on supposed truths isn't factual. And apparently, feelings = doubting the existence of broad generalization of races and their characteristics, and doing the right step in effectively coming to the conclusion on whether those human ideas are "true" in any manner.
I encourage you to watch the last few minutes of the video where it talk about sprint speed genetics, while researching that I also learned about east African distance runners and how adapting to the high altitude and flat planes has expanded their lung capacity a marginal degree
The most important thing to note is that while these do exist, they are not nearly as important as we think they are, and are convenient shortcuts to assume players skillset. If the genetics were that overwhelming - why does west Africa, which has a population of over 420 million, not have a 100 meter sprinting gold? But Jamaica, an island of 5 million, has a whole truck full?
@DB So the basketball study was over 1000s of players, I cited their working example where they contrasted the description of two players with identical physical profiles but different skin colors
Both studies are peer-reviewed approved scientific studies -- as for genetic differences, check out my comment replying to the same thing you replied to
Some interesting points and, with no pun intended, it's clearly not a black and white issue. Something else worth noting in the UK is that class, as in social standing, has a huge impact on the kind of sport you play as a kid. For working class kids, football is the sport, whereas for middle and upper class kids, it's rugby and cricket. The same is also true for urban and rural populations - city kids are more likely to play football, whereas country kids again often favour rugby and cricket. The ratio of white to non-white in these groups is significantly different. This is further reflected in communities from the Indian subcontinent, whose regions were once dominated by the British Empire where cricket is by far the most popular sport, with very few people with origins in that region playing football as kids. Cricket in this culture is possibly seen as more aspirational than football, with a greater chance of success. As I said, it's a complex issue with many different factors to consider. It's important to have the conversation though, and not in a way that points fingers. Many of these biases exist in all of us in different ways that we often don't choose and it's good to explore them.
I absolutely love this sort of content outside of FM but still around Football.
Video about US soccer team was fantastic and this video is something that I was always curious in Fifa.
Make more of that Z! Great stuff!
Okay most of the time white players are subjected to HIGHLY invested technical training by the best coaches and facilities because they more commonly live in rich countries. Obviously they gonna be better in technical skills.
While everyone knows that African athlethes are absolute beasts when it comes to speed and physicality in strength
Exactly, its not bias if its true.
It's mostly tied down to genetics but yeah
France and Brazil got the best facilities, coaches and culture of football. The last black Brazilian that good with ball was Ronaldinho. The last black players that good with ball were Jay Jay Okocha and Ronaldinho. That Soccernomics book is rubbish.
@@jonpaul3868 man.. I'm trying to counter that argument (i hate the word "last") but I can't think of any! Damn
@@netking767 well, probably the next black player that good with ball is Camavinga (France) but we have to wait to see his progress.
Hi Z,
I'm from the FIFA legal team and would like to see you change the title of your video to: FIFA Ratings Have an ALLEDGEDLY HUGE Racial Bias. Failure to comply will result in another SYS with no loans.
Has anybody seen that skit from Bill Burr about a sports commentator burning his career while explaining the "quick twitch" thing?
Even includes a Soccernomics drop. Nailed it
Maybe this is just the reality 💀
One of the biggest examples of this is Gavi. Gavi is pretty much the Spanish version of Kanté or Caicedo, yet he's regarded as some super technically gifted mastermind because he's white, Spanish and plays for Barcelona.
People do seek connections, they associate him with former Spanish Barca midfielders like Xavi, Iniesta. In Chelsea, people see Mount as next Lampard, even when he plays in different roles
The whole point of sports is it's meant to be a competition to see who is the best/which team is the best irrespective of race, age, wealth, social status, etc.
This trend to view everything through the lense of race will end badly for everyone if followed to it's logical conclusion.
Is fifa biased though people were complaining about Sancho and Gnabry’s pace being low
So it's basically more racist in favour of darker skinned players than it is for lighter skinned players.
What I don't get is, did they actually measure each player's strength and speed etc and then compare? Because some traits might be better in some races other than others... look at the olympics and the 100m final for example. It's not exactly a diverse lineup, so we shouldn't pretend that there can be some minor sporting advantages or disadvantages that can be associated with the prevalent genetic traits of a given race.
Races don't have genetic traits because race doesn't exist.
oh no, this will without a doubt be the most toxic comment section under a Zealand video. Great video Zealand you're very correct.
Meanwhile the comment section: *chill*
@@gandalf_thegrey yeah and no, keep scrolling. way cooler heads willing to listen than I expected though.
@@gandalf_thegrey yes, surprisingly I am rather happy it does actually seem quite chill. I posted my comment 30 mins after the vid was uploaded and I was seeing v questionable stuff
Hey Zealand! New video about ”Best way to setup database for long save” would be extremely helpful! 🙏🏼
I feel like there is also the money element in the US. As someone who works in education, most of my students who went to soccer trainings or any trainings that were not in housed (basketball, baseball, football), the kids with family money were able to attend those.
Holy, that's a tiny sample size
I’m a huge fan of you Zealand and don’t get me wrong this is an interesting topic to dive into, but I feel like you’re not critical enough of the data you highlight. For example: “crafty” vs “sneaky” - calling sneaky an animalistic trait and thereby concluding it might be racist seems like such a stretch to me. I don’t see how it’s got to be racist that dark skinned players are displayed as faster than lighter skinned players. It would not be unlikely purely statistically that of 88 players, the majority of the fast ones were dark skinned. And even less unlikely is it, that the average speed stat of a dark skinned player be higher than the average speed stat of a light skinned player, especially because averages can be misleading. Maybe one should have looked at the median. I don’t see how the commentary example supports it enough either, since you are only highlighting instances where there the majority is 62%, which is not that high of a percentage. I wouldn’t say that calling it racism or based on racial biases reasonable based on the data you highlighted. I think it’s a fair discussion though, I just wish you were a bit more critical of the data you put forward. Generally, I think that it is an impossible ideal to have complete equality in everything based on skin color. There will always be variation, no matter what you compare. You would for example be able to find several instances where people with small noses are treated differently compared to people with big noses. My point is that statistical variation exists everywhere, no matter what you compare, and the data doesn’t significantly convince me that what it shows is beyond what would be mathematically probable.
Genetics end of
Work ethic?
Fair point, I’d say that is social upbringing. Caucasians are roughly middle in most aspects physical, intelligence etc Asian people roughly the highest in intelligence but last roughly in physical attributes. Dark skinned aka black people are roughly the lowest in intelligence but by far the roughly highest in physical attributes. If you have a natural physical advantage over a rival in say football you are potentially more likely to rest on your laurels than a more less athletic player who would potentially have to work far harder to try to overcome there natural physical disadvantages potentially resulting in an improved work ethic.
But you know just my opinion too lol
@@BenderSoprano I work in a school and those ‘facts’ you talk of are all bull shit. Economy income drives intelligence. The higher the income the more likely that child is to have more external stimulation, more stimulation means more awareness, better reading age, comprehension and problem solving. Which can take years to catch up on. Work ethic is random, completely down to a child’s upbringing and their own personality
@DB it’s not genetics it’s unique to the individual… that’s my point. Stop easily explaining things you haven’t read properly. I’m clearly responding to the first point
@DB so you were just sticking your oar in for no reason?
Best one I can think of Is koulibaly where he was one of the best ball playing centerbacks in the world but always had 50 passing
Eh, don't agree with you on that one. Koulibaly is pretty shaky on the ball alot of the time