First Take gets into a heated debate over Max's Isiah Thomas vs. John Stockton argument
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Stephen A. Smith and Jay Williams take on Max Kellerman in a debate about John Stockton, Isiah Thomas and the 1992 Dream Team.
#NBA #FirstTake
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The Max hate on the show is actually getting out of hand.
dmhibb facts bro. I wish max would stand up for himself and stop letting Stephen A son him. Skip would never allow Stephen A to violate like this lol.
Agreed. It makes me cringe every time
I think, for these arguments using logic, his points defend himself well enough.
Nah, it's not getting out of hand. When he says dumb things like Stockton having Malone was the same as Isiah Thomas having the teammates he had in Detroit, he deserves to be ridiculed. Dumars was really good. But only one man can claim to be a better power forward than Malone in the history of the NBA and his last name is Duncan.
@@Stormpants Who max? I doubt there's any logic behind max contention that Isiah is only a tad better than stockton.
SAS: “I know a thing or two about boxing”
Boxing world: 🧢
Michael C Stephen A sounds like a casual fan when he talks about boxing
@@slick9454 lol Max and Stephen a ARE casual fans. Like every other journalist on TV or youtube they Don t know what it takes to be a pro athlete. They Don t know anything more about sports than me and you. Just beacuse they memorize bunch of facts that every idiot with a phone can look up anytime he wants to Don t mean nothing. They are Here to enterntain us and they are doing a Great Job so thats why they get pay millions and they deserve it, but in terms of knowledge they are as CASUAL as any sports fan including me and you.
Ivan Ševo yea you’re completely wrong about max bro. He’s not a casual boxing fan and has been covering boxing for YEEEAAAARRSSS max probably forgot more boxing than me and you know. SAS is a Caruso combat sorts fan for sure though.
SAS doesn't know 💩 about 🥊 btw. 🤦♂️
Lol right he barely knows about basketball
"He had Karl Malone"
Yeah, well, Malone had Stockton.
end of argument
Magic had Kareem but no one will EVER SAY THAT so I’m confused
ismail adam Kareem.
Joe Dumars. Rodman. Laimbeer the greatest bad boy of all-time.
never heard anything more true
Malone also had a case 😂😂
John Stockton is the reason why Karl Malone has 36,000 points and Karl Malone is the reason why John Stockton has 15,000 assists. They both complement each other and their both legends, and I agree with Max when it comes to Isiah being slightly better, being more emotional and animated about your opinion doesn't make it right, it actually makes it look worse.
Stockton is the all-time leader in steals and assists, by a mile.. Did Malone do that for him too?
🏀 John Stockton made everyone who that he played with better and more effective and that's not even debatable.
No way. Isiah has two rings and didn't have a top 25 player.
Karl Malone is NOT the reason that Stockton is the All-Time leader in steals, I know that much.
@andre jamison how?
Nope; Stockton was great and they are literally super hating to say he was made bc of Malone
True but he’s one of the reasons Stockton is all time leader in assists
Agreed. They act like Stockton don’t have other teammates
@@deciuswtasby He's one of the reasons. But for people to act like Karl Malone made John Stockton is utterly ridiculous. John Stockton WAS THE SYSTEM! He was the one that teams had trouble game planning against, not Malone. He was a matchup nightmare.
Ok. Max gets way too much heat sometimes. They crucified him for saying Malone was only top 5 PF of all time. That's not crazy. There were a lot of great PF's
I'd take Duncan, KG, and Dirk over Malone everyday of the week. Even if they all had equal number of rings.
@@travelingtheworld8224 Timmy and KG for sure but Dirk is much closer. Malone was the better defender and rebounder by a mile and better low block threat.
@@travelingtheworld8224 Number one is obviously Tim. Two, I would say Kevin McHale. And three is debatable between Dirk, Malone, Barkley, and KG
Yeah, I'm not sure Malone would be among my top-3 PF's. It's a very crowded category, and very close at the top.
Top 3 maybe
I love how these guys arguements are not fact based. These dudes are emotional that a boxing analyst can analyze the game of basketball better than them and more objectively
@Cool Breeze yeah but as I mentioned they are not fact based. Emotion in the absence of facts is just whining
@Cool Breeze Max brought up stats, achievements and accolades and even then agreed with them. All Jay did was bring up Malone and act like an idiot and SAS was just insulting Max. Max may not always have the most sensible takes but there was no objectivity from Jay and SAS. Just emotional flailing and insulting.
@@SM-qd7po
Yeah, but all three of them have stupid takes. SAS is a horrible analyst though for being a so called basketball expert. He is just well connected in the league.
Stockton is solid and a prototypical pg. Zeke is on another level though, and shouldn't be questioned.
Point still stands, zeke was the best player on the best team at a point in basketball history, stockton was never the best player on his team and his team was never the best team in basketball.
Stockton was never a top 5 player in the league not one point in nba history is that true. But zeke was one of the 3 best players in the late 80s.
@@markpagtama7954 max doesn't disagree with that. His point is that he would go with Isiah but is a lot closer than these clowns insist. He is right that Stockton had a peak close to Isiah but not on his level, but had a more longer career with sustained production
SAS acts like hes the only one who can talk basketball.
When he cant predict a winner in NBA finals 🤣
Why do they disrespect him so much with all the facial expressions, max respects them when there talking. Totally unprofessional
Only disrespect is Max thinking Stockton was close to Zeke
@@michaelphillips9933 Stockton > Zeke and its not even close
KO BE Isaiah carried the pistons offense
KO BE and has two more rings
@@kobe3534 obvious hipster is obvious *ding*
The disrespect towards Stockton is disgusting 🤦🏽♂️
Trevor Morris John Stockton is very overrated
@@sharrieffmuhammad9227 - And yet go look up how many ex NBA players think Stockton is the best point guard ever. Not one of the best, but THE BEST.
AndyB he is definitely top 3, between him magic and Oscar
@@sharrieffmuhammad9227 You misspelled "underrated"
Xavier Vega no he’s overrated
Stockton has the record for both steals and assists by a mile too
And how did that help the team in those 2 Finals they loss?
MJ knew they didn't fear Stockton and Malone.
They feared Isiah Thomas and his teammates.
@@123slasher.16 isiah thomas was a better superstar/star than stockton, stockton a better passer
@@Coldskin1 stop it;
Just because he had more assists doesn't make him a better passer
Stockton made some boring passes in a system that he couldn't win a title in.
Go watch the INCREDIBLE passes Isiah Thomas made that had crowds going crazy on the creativity..
Go watch any All Star Game he played in and watch those highlight passes.
Between the two, Isiah Thomas had a BIGGER role in his team as he had to score (Stockton didn't), had to run the offense and when it came to the big shots, EVERYONE knew the ball was going to Isiah, something that wasn't happening with Stockton.
If Stockton was this great passer, where were those passes when they were constantly choking in the playoffs?
That's all folks can talk about with Stockton, those meaningless stats .
Here's what they talk about Isiah Thomas.
1979 gold medal winner and MVP of the title game.
1981 NCAA champion and MOP of the Final Four.
1989-1990 NBA champion and NBA Finals MVP in 1990.
Those stats for Stockton were USELESS when it came to winning.
@@123slasher.16 TRY again you dense casual 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡🤡
Magic had Worthy, Kareem, etc. Are we to take away from Magic’s greatness because he had prolific scorers?
Although I rarely agree with Max when it comes to basketball, I think he’s right on this one.
The problem with that line of thinking is that magic was the best player on the team through most of that 80s run. And even without kareem he got the magic to the 1991 finals. In comparison, stockton wasn't the best player on the team, malone clearly was. Which is why in games that malone played and stockton didn't, malone's numbers were about the same. While in games that stockton played without malone, he was way worse.
@@ajdaking507 nobody says stockton was a better player that malone
@@ajdaking507 maybe cause kareem was alreayd older and outside of his prime?
@@ajdaking507 remind us again what happened to Magic in that ‘91 finals?
O
Stephen A and Jay’s only argument against Stockton, was that he played with Karl Malone. But I promise you that Stephen A or Jay would never fault Magic Johnson for playing with Kareem.
Exactly what i was hoping max would say. Smh the disrespect
Magic did prove he was great on his own in his rookie year when he closed out the Finals without Kareem, with a 42pt triple-double.
Also won League MVP in 1990, with the best recording the league in 91 and a finals appearance.
Lol Magic won with what he had, Stockton didn’t. Isiah won with less than both of what they had. Isiah was better just not as well liked.
What made Stockton great was his assist just google his stats..he average 13ppg to maybe 17 or 18ppg.. probably half his assist are to malone
Or MJ Playing with Scottie.
The disrespect to Stockton is incredible.
The more animated you get doesn't make your argument is stronger.
Why Stephen A Smith is one of the most disliked people on television, example #3612.
Ya but one is black and one is white.
GNB nobody say that Isiaah Thomas wasn’t better than Stockton but that’s not outlandish saying that it’s close
All star mvp 1993
GNB he’s accomplished nothing you’re right he sucks
If Stockton was black we would have given him more respect. Stockton does deserve more respect
If Isaiah was white he would be a god like Bird
@@bradthomas7431 What? There are countless players who are perceived
better than Isaiah, and like 37/40 are black...
@@bradthomas7431 facts lol i sway lol
Brad Thomas absolutely.
@@timtabron9600 This is where the race card double standard just goes too far. The great white superstar like a Larry Bird just breathes so much hope into a white community, when he can be so profoundly dominant in a black man's game. When a black quarterback like RG3 starts having so much success at a white position, the black community gets all excited too. If Isiah was slighted so much for being black, why did he make the All-Star team 12 straight yrs, every single one of his career but the very last one he was injured? They vote the All-Star team backcourts based on 2 guards in general, not specifically a point guard & a shooting guard. He didn't have such amazing stats his rookie yr, or after his mid 20s.
The way Stephen A treated Max was unacceptable. You can tell he was goin to try an snake em in the long run.
ever since max was called more black than stephen a. by to, it was over between the 2
lol your delusional... snake em? lol... max had way too many bogus takes... like this one about isiah... brady's cliff, warriors dynasty... wiggins... fate of the world last second shot gove me iguadola lol... theres more lol... nothing to do with snaking lol
@@loudpack3398those bogus tales are what make shows entertaining
Cry me a River… even the other analysts couldn’t stand when makes open his mouth about basketball….. omg he is so annoying in this takes 🤦🏾♂️🤯
"Stockton wasn't looking to pass."
Isnt he the all time assist leader?
Amanda Smith imagine if he was looking to pass.he would of have 25k assists.lmao
Stockton in the 80 was a lethal scorer also he was mad clutch
who said stock wasn't looking to pass?
@@manofaith75 S.A.S....
He said he was looking to pass its obvious what he was saying
Max is looking at the producers thinking “y’all ain’t paying me enough to take this disrespect on the daily.” I do love SAS, but this show is turning into the Steven A always knows best.
This why I refuse to watch first take without live sports now
SAS thinks he's right all the time..smh
I mean it is a debate show for a reason
its more annoying stephen A think he is a star, acts and think he some retired althtete. when in reality all he is a shoe shiner or jock boy scraping off others talents and talking about it
Nigel Harris yeah the hate Max gets from them is disrespectful. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was saying pay me more or I’m dont with this bs.
@Jiggy Thanos a lot of this is a eye test and this white guy is not as athletic and the black guy. That is wrong the stats back up Max. Stockton was not only as good but I would be tempted to say he was better.
Stockton-all time leader in steals. That record will stand forever.
Should we give Malone credit for that too?
Great Point!
And assists
0 rings to isaiah’s 2. that will stand forever as well
Very true
@@troylowe9457 by that logic you can't have Jordan above Bill Russell.
Stockton is the most underrated player ever. All time leader in assists & Steals BY A DISTANCE and No one in the media gives him any credit
underrated say people even slandering him as a passer🤦♀
I agree
He is underrated, but I believe Alexander English is more underrated!
Get Jay Williams out of here and replace him with someone who doesn't look completely baffled when presented with facts.
Seriously though😂 Jay just can't see anybody else's view no matter how wrong he is😭
But Jay was right though!!!!🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️🤷🏾♂️
@@logic2000 john stockton lol embarrassing dude. Is he even better than curry lol
Is he better than curry? Your trippin. Curry jacks up threes that’s it every other aspect of the game Stockton was better
He is actually.better than Curry IN EVERY WAY except 3pt shots and ball handling. Gas with Stockton would be better than having Green
Jay Williams is flat out bad at his job smh 🤦🏽♂️
Yeah i agree... He cant EVER be wrong
He's the goat when it comes to making me cringe
Nah..he passionate,,keeps it real and dont like to hear nonsense from people who never played the game
nah he's good at it; I just think you dont like his face.
How is he ? This dude played in the nba it be dudes that never played a sport in life trying too debate about a player’s greatness yea u can have an opinion but I’ll take what a nba player that played before a fan that watches and play 2k and swear they know basketball
Stockton owns the assist record and the steals record. Those are two of the five main recordable stats in the game of basketball.
I'm with Max on this one
@Darren Cernansky cap. Jordan knew it also
Lol okay John Stockton good but not close to IT
Stephen A and Jay literally made no argument. W goes to Max easily
How about we give Stockton credit for getting malone so many easy buckets
Exactly what I have been saying
THANK YOU!!!
Exactly. I mean Malone could face up and hit a jumper or then use that and drive to the hoop. However other than that Malone's post game was a lot more limited than people remember. He didn't have particularly great footwork or a great hook shot or spin moves etc. All of this meant a lot of his hoops came from running the floor and rolling to the hoop. Stockton was the one that provided him the ball in those situations. Stockton helped Malone a lot. I actually think Stockton helped Malone as much as Malone helped Stockton. Stockton is criminally underated. Isiah was better but lets give Stockton some credit.
They was not easy buckets , they were 15 foot jumpers
90% of the time it was dribble the ball up with one hand (b/c back then point guards were awful at dribbling with both hands), get the ball toKarl Malone in the post, and then Malone would proceed to do some wiggles and other ancient post moves and use his muscle to get to the hole. That was it. Beyond that, Stockton was above average at break away passes. But WAY overrated. Fred Vanvleet for the Toronto Raptors, a normal point guard by today's standards, is MUCH better than Stockton ever was.
I disagree with Stephen A and jay will on this one. The system that John and karl played in allowed both of them to be great. But the system needed a more willing passer which is what John stockton was so I don't think it's that easy to just say if isaiah and karl malone were together it would be the same or better because we just don't know. Not to mention isaiah thomas was a ball dominant gaurd who needed the ball that's a lot harder to play with them someone like stockton who's looking to pass and get teammates involved.
How dare they sell Stockton short. The man leads two all time categories.
It’s all bc he’s white and they are much closer to IT than John
Here's the best stat.
Isiah Thomas -3 NCAA and NBA titles combined.
John Stockton -0 NCAA and NBA titles combined in a longer college career and a longer NBA career.
@@123slasher.16 must be an old head talking about championship numbers like that.
@@SJ23og hey what did those stats lead to?
Isiah's play LED to titles on 2 levels, MOP and MVP honors on both.
That's the most important stat-winning.
@@123slasher.16 that narrative is over used. By your logic, Rodman is greater than Zeke because he has more titles and was monumental in getting them. Firstly, your championship stat means nothing to me because I’ve never talked about Stockton being better than Thomas. Secondly, let’s not act like Stock wasn’t a legend himself. Correct me if I’m wrong, but he’s never had a losing nba season.
Stockton is underrated. Karl Malone didn't grab those steals stop sleeping on Stockton
Grace there is no such thing as a, “underrated living Hall of famer”
Michael Ukattah Isaiah was a better player but their tone towards Stockton leaves a bad taste. He’s on the list of top pg of all time with Isaiah
I would take Stockton over Thomas any day ! Leads in assists, gets steals & a floor general....i hated the jazz but it was mainly bcuz Stockton was that good !
OVERRATED!!! There fixed it for ya lmmfao
Stockton was the prototype point guard. So efficient all around.
Why SAS think that him covering the league means he knows something? First Take posts video evidence every day that he is wrong 99% of the time... Dude said in 2016 Melo was better than Kawhi and Griffin, that's fireable statement
In 2016 melo was better
@@jplaya2023 no he wasn't...
Timo Cruz Melo is better then griffin
only thing Griffin has ever been better at than Melo is dunking
@@jplaya2023 oh pls, melo 16 was derozan level at best.
Isiah Thomas was more skilled than Stockton. However, that doesn't automatically make him a better player. Stockton was an amazing player. When former players who matched up against him, they talk about Stockton with superlatives and you hear phrases such as "grossly underrated" , tough as nails, strong and smart. etc etc.....
• Derrick Coleman was more skilled, had more natural talent than Karl Malone, so did Shawn Kemp, does that make them better than Karl Malone? NO. They same thing can be applied to John Stockton.
• For the youngsters John Stockton played with Jeff Malone early in his career and Jeff Hornacek, later in his career. Both were Tremendous shooters (look them up) Stockton also made players such as Byron Russell, Chris Morris and a host of other swingman/small forward types better. Most of those players RARELY experienced the same amount of success without Stockton.
• Isiah Thomas was one of my favorite players ever, but he and Stockton were equals. Thomas more skilled, and physically talented, but Stockton was a tireless worker with a tremendous basketball IQ and a great facilitator. People tend to forget that Stockton made the NBA all defensive team 5X. Quite a feat for a 6'1 175 "unathletic" white guy.
Put some respect on that man's name!
I hear nothing but fax
I would only add two things:
1. A guy named Gary Payton said that Stockton was second after MJ to guard. Ppl should check Gary HoF ceremony and look up hwo standing in stage with him.
2. Isiah "I love myself" Thomas spoke highly about Stockton.
Ra No Um, correction, he said he was no.1.
No rings
No rings
At the end when max goes “Liar”😂😂😂😂
I actually agree with max, u can’t just disrespect Stockton because he had Malone.
If you thought this about disrespecting Stockton then you didn’t watch the clip
Stockton is #1 most underrated player ever.
Stockton created Malone with his brilliance.
Isaiah didn't have the luxury of open shots?????
Stockton was smarter than to take stupid shots.
Barkley said "Stockton made the best decisions with the ball."
Rum Have Stockton is the most OVERRATED player of all time, a large majority of his assists were from Malone, the starting point guard before him was also averaging double digit assists w Malone it was Malone who was largely responsible for stocktons success, it’d be the equivalent of if rondo ran a pick and roll with Kevin Garnett every play a lot of assists
@@rumhave9632 Stockton was seriously overrated. This shouldn't even be a debate really.
Thomas won games, Stockton was part of a team that won games.
one was a cog in the machine and the other was the machine.
There is a world of difference.
john made malone more than malone made stockton
Jay will is weird man he thinks he’s better than max lol he ain’t
He is nowhere near better than max Kellerman he need to stop
Max got em bafooned by FACTS...he be killing my boy Stephen all da time tho..n Jay Will need to 🤐
he knows more basketball
Max never played basketball 🏀! Jay Williams did! Nuff said!
@@charleswilliams8248 Ryan Hollins said neither Kobe or MJ could fill Lebron's shoes....so lets dig a little more into arguments than that.
Stockton was more of a leader on that team than Malone.
Didn’t Zeke put up 40 something points on him after that dream team snubb? Isn’t Zeke a two time champion, back to back champion? Oh ok. 🙄🙄🙄🤷🏾♂️
When MJ and the Bulls were ready for the big time in 91, how did Isiah go against them? I case you'd forgotten, it was all BROOMS!!!! 4-0 Chicago and Isiah slunk off the court before the siren. How did Stockton and the Jazz go against what was an even better Bulls team in the '97 and '98 finals? 4-2 both times. Isiah and the Pistons had their time and got their rings and that is history but that doesn't prove Isiah was better than Stockton. There are two teams that were very lucky with their timing, the '89 and '90 Pistons, and the '94, '95 Rockets. No peak MJ. I think Stockton and the Jazz did as good a job at taking it to the Bulls as any team could have.
@@plefevre you was good till you said the rockets were lucky not to get peak Jordan. Jordan was 10-12 versus houston in his career. Houston was a team that had something most teams didn't...... Someone like Maxwell who didn't fear or praise MJ. He trash talked and could back it up on the court. The bulls had no answer for the Dream and Phil didn't believe in double teams. If the rockets don't trade Cassel and horry for barkley, houston could have possibly met Chicago in the finals.
Paul Le Fevre To be fair tho, Stockton played like trash in the 98 finals. Zeke played bad in 91 but not as bad as Stockton did. Only difference is Zeke went up against prime Mike. And he was locking Dumars down the entire series
@@plefevre So you're going to neglect the fact that those pistons had to go through a boston celtics team with Bird, McHale, and Parish. Had to go through the Lakers with Magic and Kareem. And MJ WaSnT in HiS PRiMe but had already won an MVP, a DPOY, and had led the league in scoring 4x. Why don't you google basketball and come back with some facts to back up your bs. Over here tryna say losing in the finals is better than winning in the finals FOH. And if those two teams were "lucky" well then how come the jazz weren't lucky when both stockton and malone were playing during those years?
Yes, and paid for it with stitches. Karl was mad because Isaiah was embarrassing Stockton and showing him he’s better. Most people don’t understand Isaiah’s talent. He could average 25 ppg, but was asked to spread the ball around his whole career even in college at Indiana. If Isaiah and John played 1 on 1 to 10 who would win…..Just think about it because they know 💯
SAS needs to give up that UFC card before he calls for Max's NBA card.
SAS was right!!
Ricky VanDusen about what the UFC cause if so you tripping
🤔
he was right about Cowboy not wanting to be in the fight against connor
PhieldBoy7evn Lol actually he was right. Look up cowboys latest interview about the Connor fight from couple days ago. Everything He said straight up made SAS correct on the situation. Was tragic
Y'all treating the all time steals and assist leader like he a scrub
Watch the tape. Stockon barely had a left hand and a large majority of his assist were him dropping the ball to malone. Normally the assist would be lost because once the ball is in the post guys would take too long to score but not with malone.
@@xdan9xx s t e a l s
@@blackeesh463 he was great at defending point guards before point guards were any good.
No just not better than zeke
Flareb 99 he is a scrub compared to Isaiah. Look at the head to head matchups.
But, Malone also had Stockton aswell.
Max is right. Detroit had weapons too. Stockton's defense matters.
Tyrie Reid joe dumars
@@joshmedrano513 Joe Dumars was a "weapon"?? No knock to Joe Dumars, but he was a 6'4 shooting guard, a great role player, and played great defense on guards, but come on dude. You comparing Dumars to Karl Malone, not even close. Stop it.
Max dropping fact bombs on these 2🤣
why they acting like this take is absurd. He’s not saying that Stockton is better than IT but he’s saying it his very close which isn’t crazy to think Stockton was amazing
Blake Munson it’s not close. IT clearly better than Stockton
I can't tell if you're trolling or not
But Stockton IS BETTER THAN Zeke.
iluvcakes19 bro who use to say Stockton better than zeke? That’s absurd. Zeke gave him like 40 after the dream team was announced. Zekes 8 healthy seasons compared to stocktons prime is totally not even close. Zeke did everything better, tell me one part of the game Stockton was better at in both their primes and I’ll shut up
But it’s about making the team bro Isaiah was supposed to make that team over John stockton
Stockton averaged 13.1 points per game, for a career. Stockton never proved he could be the man on a team. He was a very good point guard. No more, No less.
The problem about that was Isaiah disrespected the bulls and plus dream team had a lot of scorers so Stockton would have been best as a facilitator for them
I can’t stand Jay. He has a conniption whenever people disagree with him. It’s annoying.
He's a legend living in a shell
He’s Molly 2.0
He is right tho. Max is so far wrong it’s sad.
@@delioniowilson7301 Explain why.
@@delioniowilson7301 Max isn't wrong. The problem is people don't understand what he is saying. Ya'll are acting like he is saying John was better then and he isn't. He is saying their careers are at the very least comparable to one another. He is also saying that making the argument that Stockton only did what he did because of Malone doesn't account for how high some of his stats are compared to Isiah. Malone was an A+ player. Detroit didn't have that outside of Isaiah. What Detroit did have however was a massive amount of B to B- players around Isiah. That is what Max is saying. When you start actually comparing the teams they are comparable to one another. The team makeup cannot be the excuse for why you can't compare Isiah vs Stockton.
Stephen a: “you talkin u ain’t listening” bro why are u describing yourself
What makes a great point guard? Assists and steals are two huge measurements. Who had the most of each ever in the history of the game? Stockton. Two of these guys are so biased that they just can't see the truth. Stockton shot the ball very little and when he did, he made them, especially with the game on the line.
Ha! So funny
Max debates, never argues. His points are clear and cogent even when everyone tries to get on the bandwagon to try and bully him into conceding his point but he's a fearless truth teller. The man deserves respect.
- Sending support from Malaysia!
Except when it comes to Tom Brady
@@shanahan142008because he openly hates Boston sports. Different situation
Never forget that Gary “The Glove” Payton said that Stockton was the most difficult player he had to guard. And GP played against Jordan.
Marcus Miller stupid argument, Payton came in the leave in 1990, Thomas was on the decline, Payton and Stockton was on the west played against each other hundreds of time, I can bring up a lot of players who say Zeke is better, so this logic is stupid
It’s a bad argument because we know Jordan was cooking him more than Stockton
@@TimDog-ge8bd hows is stupid when wilt,magic,kidd, Barkley all rank him at the top
But the glove couldn't win against Jordan twice. He got his ring not through Jordan
Scottie had Michael Jordan, you don't see him averaging 20 assists.
Shawn Wang bruh no one would even avg 10 assist per game in a triangle offense.
Michael Jordan was not a screen and roller/popper, he created his own baskets and you don't get an assist for that.
You mean Jeremy Lin played with Carmelo you don’t see him getting 20 assists
Please stop talking ball
@@Samuel-zo5eq u seem to actually understand the game of basketball 💪🏾
Stockton is one of my favorites all time and I’m from Detroit 🤷🏾♂️
Sellout. You must'a grew up in Dearborn 😂😂😂
LMAO!!🤣🤣🤣
I'm from Detroit as well & I agree. John Stockton was a BEAST at the PG position.
Favorites, okay cool, but better than Isiah? Stockton was a great, but saying he was better than Zeke, you can't be from the D if you think that bruh. lol
Here I was thinking Stockton was unanimously a top 3 PG of all time.
He's top 2
@@wonderbatenthusiast1665 nah top5
@@Mamapelz he's top 2 in my list
Magic Oscar Steph Zeke Stockton
Arguably top 5, no way he top 3
They are diminishing John Stockton’s career. John S was an all time great.
sol74098 Never won a ring. John could've went to the Lakers and loss like his team mate. He tapped out and retired. This is what happens when you leave without a ring😂
Absolutely! 😁😁😊😊
Nope bruh it's facts Carl Malone was the key to everything. Where is Carl Malone on the nba scoring list?
So what if he didn't win a ring, he had Malone, and that's mostly all. Hornacek was a shell of himself, Thomas had loads of help.
Lee Cambell Where is Stockton on the assist list?
Ok, getting real tired of Steven A. The yawning, the side swipe, the attention.. It's a debate, have some class.
I agree..But he won this debate..Stockton LoL..
Jay Williams would be absolutely destroyed by Stockton, day in day out
Stockton was strong, tough, smart, athletic , and had disproportionately large hands hence the clean rips and passing lane intercepts
I swear, Max be making these guys look like chumps.
This comment just made you look like a chump
Nah fam you're ignorant. Max's IQ is superior to Steven A's and he never has to tell or be theatrical when explaining his point
yup, you just have to stay awake and hear him out
On open court Isaiah said that malone was the weak link an Stockton was better......look it up
Max is right on this one. Stephen A and Jay Will just wants to argue for the sake of argument.
Justinn Tinoko this whole shows exists for SAS to argue with people mostly Max, SAS is a great spokesperson and advocate, being correct is not one of his skills.
You can't compare John Stockton to Isiah Thomas. There is no comparison. Stop it.
Jesse McLemore Why? Isaiah was more of a scoring point guard paving the way for Iverson, Marburg, Westbrook. Stockton was your prototypical point guard. He ran the show, got everyone involved. They’re both on the list of top point guards of all time.
E R but still couldn’t lead his team to championships, that’s why Isiah is a class above Stockton.
Gerard Temu Stockton never got swept by a prime MJ led team
5 major categories in basketball. Stockton leads two of them. And second place in either is not even close. How do they not get that?
Haha I like how SAS already has the “YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM TALKING BASKETBALL!!” Look in the beginning haha 😂
And that baby’s reaction at 4:07 is exactly my reaction hahaha
😂😂😂💯
Does this mean we are going to devalue Magic because he played with Kareem and Janes Worthy??
No because those dudes talents didn't inflate Magic's talents, Magic was an amazing passer and great finisher at the rim, it didn't matter to him if Kareem was under the bucket or a dude on a 10 day, his talents weren't heightened by those dudes, John Stockton ran a system catered to point guards to get high assist totals and did it with a top 3 PF of all time, having great teammates is a luxury but it also masks your weaknesses because your not forced to go outside of your strengths
@@welcomeworldsports9133 and running Showtime didn't inflate Magic's numbers? He played with the greatest center of all time and top 5 small forward. Can't have it both ways.
to some degree you have to admit that Magic's numbers are inflated because he played on the consistent best team of the 80's.
@@josephjohnroe3678 Magic ran a run and gun system, which is heavily on the point guard to run and create baskets, how does a great post man impact his ability to get up and down the court and find the open man, he was their half court threat for when the run and gun doesn't work, and Worthy was an amazing player that took heat off of Magic so I can see where your coming from their, but Stockton literally ran a system that was made for two players and one of the players is a top 3 pf all time
@@welcomeworldsports9133 WOW the excuses are STROOOONG for Magic Johnson. Kareem is the GREATEST OF ALL-TIME and you're really going to sit there and act like he didn't help make Magic? AND he had Worthy? Imagine if Bird had Michael Jordan on his team, you going to act like wouldn't have had a better career?
Gary Payton said John Stockton was the hardest person he ever had to play against because he always played perfect basketball.
Luke Einsel Gary was drafted in 1990 so he never really played against isaiah so using him as proof is completely biased and doesn’t prove your point.
@@SuperWearethed wait a second, didnt Thomas retire in 1994 and the olympics were in 1992.
Sohrab Navahandi he was talking about a prime Isaiah he wasn’t as good when Gary played him
Courtney Stovall
Bro Gary Payton played against prime Isiah Thomas
Sohrab Navahandi If you read what i said careful you would have seen I said he never really played against him, the year Isaiah won his last championship Gary payton was drafted a month later so that leave Gary 4 season to play against him and we all know that wasnt prime isaiah and john was drafted in 84 so gary actually played against john more while john was in his prime. So its biased and dont prove who was harder to guard considering that he played john in his prime and not isaiah
SAS face at the end when it went to just him sitting there omg that was hilarious😂
Stockton had ten seasons with higher Win Shares than Isiah's best season.
But still has 2 rings tho
I can’t believe he just said stocktons success was primarily because of Malone? My god the disrespect. Ask those who played against him how great Stockton was
They also act like Malone was just carrying Stockton the entire time... not like Malone benefited from Stockton's presence or anything... you think Malone would have that 36000 w/o Stock?? I bet Malone himself would be shakin' his head at the Stock disrespect.
It could go either way ask Malone who was throwing all them dimes to him only the all time assist leader
Aj Pope so Stockton in your top 5 point guards ?
@@ariesking1036 stockton isnt on isaiahs level
Ezekiel Jones if you consider west and Iverson 2 guards then yes he’s in the top 5
Don’t get me wrong Max be wrong a lot but I don’t like how they treat him when he be right sometimes it just be mean.
Caleb Conner yeah he makes valid points at times, it's just Stephen A and whoever on the the show as guest is always always overtalking Smdh, just cuz you're louder, don't always mean you're right
i was gonna say the same thing. max is very intelligent and sometimes they just don't understand his higher level thinking
Max is right a lot more than folks wan to give him credit for, but doesn't play well to a TV audience that doesn't want nuanced opinions.
@@shanepringle Precisely, the general audience are driven by Emotional i.e. Stephen A Smith & Evel Knievel... I mean Jay Williams. They're are the same intellectual as Stephen A Smith. Yet, time & time again he's able sway people due to his Passionate takes. Almost like hounding you into submission.
FACTS! I'm African-American & I can say Max can pull the race card when they be trying to jump him in areas like this
Isiah was not the passing point guard that Stockton was-not even close...Max is actually right on this one. Malone also GREATLY benefitted from Stockton-but they don't want to talk about that. I wonder why?
Ok Zimmerman...... Stockton is white so you want to make him top 2 point guard all-time. Ok
The Dream team didn't need another scorer they needed a guard to deliver the ball to those great players. It's sad that he broke his leg and didn't get to play very much
Jay Williams has been getting me tight lately just had to throw that out there 🤦🏾♂️, but Max isn’t wrong with anything he is saying outside of Malone it’s true Isiah Thomas had a better all around team Thomas is better but we can’t sit here and act like it wasn’t close from a talent perspective between the 2 Stephen A always talking about Max card basketball card needs to be revoked sometimes I do agree with that but Stephen A needed his card revoked when he Ad is better than Kawhi
I swear Jay Williams is an idiot
Elijah Guerrero Jay Williams is annoying ngl
Stockton > Thomas, especially on defense. Isiah on seems better because he scored more. That's not necessarily true though.
Janik McMahon 💯
Those were my exact thoughts. Well said my friend
SAS: “You’re talking, you ain’t listening” as he misses the point and talks over Max
Absolutely!
So you sayin max is right?
@@jeruakel that part!
@@jeruakel yup
Jeru Akel yes, he said “Isiah over Stockton by a hair”
What’s is the issue? Do they want him to play with scrubs to prove he’s good like that makes no sense.
Isiah revolutionized basketball with his handles, Stockton had no left hand
He didn't let his left hand know what his tight hand was doing.
Start my team: Stockton
1 game for my life: Thomas
John Stockton the all time assist and steals leader 🤷🏽♂️
Matt L So! That’s longevity I’ll take Prime Isaiah all day. Way more versatile.
@@kewan2045 itsno comparison
Kewan um he was also leader in seasons of course.
I just posted the same thing before I saw yours lol
6ft 2hunnid You’re right Thomas was better 🤷🏾♂️
I’m staring to like Max a lot more during the lockdown and SAS a lot less.
Youre finally seeing the light!
If you watch this show more often the more you know Max is 100% much better than SAS and Jay
The quarantine is getting to SAS 😂
Max prsents logical arguments based on facts. He whiffs sometimes like with the Brady cliff theory several years ago. But his opinions at least are logical conclusions based on facts. SAS looks hard to find racism in sports, often when it doesnt exist. "Larry Bird walked off the court and didnt shake hands just like IT and the Pistons, and he didnt got roasted for it. That might because he's white" yeah right...I guess Bill Laimbeer isnt white too. Please
@@mellis9729 brady fell of da cliff now though. 14-13 & not score second half at home to tennessee (career over) Tampa a paper public team this year like Cleveland n chicago coming into last year (we know what happened with those 2 teams) best propt bet is under on Tampa win total for season you'll thank me later
Max also knows how to troll both SAS & Jay. That side smirk is more than enuff to say he's enjoying this.
I'd take Stockton over any PG including Magic.
Me too!! People look at me crazy when I pick him as my starting point for my all time team
🤣
Zeke is better than Stockton. If you think otherwise you never actually watched zeke and just listen to what Jordan says.
The thumbnail is so good. Max sitting all innocent while Stephen A and Jay lose their minds
Truly a microcosm of America
he's so smug when he says "you're making absurd accusations" lol
Absolutely!
that’s all first take has come down to these days, this documentary is ruining first take to a degree
How dare he go against a black man. He is their brother.
Why Stephen A gotta attack max and call him beatlejuice, you know you’ve lost an argument when you start to result to insults
He’s tryna be more entertaining since Skip left but nothing can replace the beautiful entertaining ignorance that man spews, you really believe he believes he’s a great sport analyst, it’s the most frustrating yet captivating thing to watch in sports entertainment 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I would punch Smith in the face if I was Max.
Lighton Organic Stephen A been like that... he used to call Skip the Joker with his pointed nose
Dreddy_Rayay999 and u would get fired
He said beatlejuice eyes👀👀😂😂
2:26 Max knowing he said all those things just to tick off Stephen A.
I think it’s definitely a close debate. Personally, I’ll take Stockton. And my goodness, Jay Williams is soft!
Why is Stocktons brilliance being used against him?😂
Mo Co34 right, sas was saying he has all day to shoot because everyone was scared of his passing ability lol
Because he's WHITE. Isn't it obvious.
Don’t know how much better he was than Price not close to Isaiah
@@each1teach1academy43 what???? John Stockton??? Wayyy better than mark price not better than Zeke but he is def a legend...we gotta put some respect on Stockton name
GOOD I love it. People always love to throw shots at our great Legends like Bill Russell, Wilt, Kareem. Wilt is the Best Individual player ever and they constantly disrespect him, John Stockton (no rings by the way) gets called out and people can't handle it. Welcome to the Club
Jay wants to be Stephen A with his reactions, he’s mad annoying
Tyler Sisko yeeees.... he just need to stop! It’s never gonna happen😭😭😭
Tyler Sisko idk why everyone talk about curry better than Westbrook, they say go to the stats but Westbrook is well past him in points, assists, rebounds, steals, the only thing curry has that he is beating him in is FG percentage but then when they say in court Westbrook still is a better scorer and if everyone wasn’t shooting threes then there will be no discussion cause then curry can’t thrive and if curry played back then he will literally be Steve Kerr and nothin more if Westbrook was to play back then he will still be great and u can’t argue with that the only thing curry has over him is the rings which I can agree on but if Westbrook has a ring or two he will definitely be bette even Jordan said curry will not be a hall of famer
@@IB4.. Curry plays in system where everyone passes the ball so his assist will always be down compared to Russ. This coming from a Thunder and Westbrook fan
Garrett Lewis he gotta be playing look at that last line 🤦🏿♂️
Why would he want to be Steven? Jay was once the best college player in the country, he was the #1 pick in the NBA draft.. If anything Steven wishes he could be Jay
Ok ok is its just me who got they in the studio doing the sound check 😊 Awesome. Got to love it 😊💖
I’m with Max on this, Max may be a boxing guy, but the man is very very very calculated. He’s no joke.
i swear i heard a kid in the background in this video😂
I heard too
Definitely A Kid 😂
Max: "Isiah was better, but let's put some respect on Stocktons name."
Jay & SAS: "Do you even realize Isiah was better?" "I guess not because you never played the game."
Max: "Wait, what?"
No the problem is Max doesnt understand the percentage of assist that Stockton got from Malone. Its not close. You can argue that Stockton was the better defensive player but Zeke was averaging double digit assist without that. His assist stats would be insane.
BigBody Rico If you just read stats Stockton was better, this is why the eye test matters. He did not have the ability to take over a game like Isiah Thomas. There’s a decent size skill gap there.
@@stephenasunnamedsource2943 Yes, he averaged double digit assists... in the eighties. The Olympics were in 1992 though.
Stockton is for me the best point guard of all time and people are talking that isiah is better than him is ridicilous
😆
Both are top tier point gaurds and each had thier share of high end scorers as teamates to gather assists. Karl Malone was of course the highlight in Utah but there was Jeff Malone ,Jeff Hornacek & Thurl Bailey contributing some years in Utah adding a scoring punch. Heck, Adrian Dantley was a top scorer at the time and spent two years in Utah during Stockton's career and then went right over to Detroit for two 1/2 seasons so he was shared between the two gaurds.
Thomas had his share of scorers a well. Dantley as I mentioned but also Kelly Tripucka, Joe Dumars, Vinnie(The Microwave)Johnson & Bill Laimbeer. Thomas had more of a scorer mentalilty, averaged at least 30 minutes per game each season for 13 years. Stockton had eight seasons averaging less than 30 minutes a game but in the end was able to maintain a higher assist, steal, FG %, FT % & less turnover avg.
I think it is unfair to deduct from Stockton's skill sets by throwing in Karl Malone as a buffer. Like others have mentioned what about Magic and his great cast over the years? Why didn't Tony Parker ever average 8 assist a game or much higher by having Tim Duncan? I think there are different variables to take into consideration like play style, team dynamics, coaching, etc. Just some things to think about.
All i know is IT was the leader and catalyst of a team that won back to back championships, went to three in a row, and beat a prime MJ, Magic, and Bird to do it. Not to mention Pippen, Kareem, McHale, and Parish. Y'all wake me up when stockton do that. Yall can argue back in forth about who better but aint no question who greater!
This show should be called teaming up on Max 😂.
First Take Handicap Match against Max should be the shows' name.
Stockton was a stone cold assassin. He's underrated because he's white and he didn't win a ring.
I agree. Gary Payton said he was his toughest opponent.
Wrd I agree with that statement
That’s a Fact
Exactly. If the Glove chose Stockton to induct him into the HOF - and Payton has gone On Record to say that Stockton was the toughest player he’s ever played - that’s saying it all
Gonzalo Otheguy he's underrated but not nearly as good as Isiah Thomas.
Max Kellerman is right. Because if not then Stephen A and J Will don't need to react that way. Because it still proves that Max Kellerman is right.
Stockton was incredible, the best basketball player to play his position. Actual real hall of famers including Isiah have said the same. This dude just likes to yell.
No rings
This argument is stupid Max is right idk why they jumping him like he’s wrong 🤦🏾♂️ Stockton played longer and better for a longer period of time! And we can’t fault him for having a great player on his team Magic has Kareem Kobe and Shaq has each other 🤷🏾♂️ Larry had Malone nobody wants to take away their credit! It’s a close call but yea Isiah and his prime is better by a hair Stockton only player that can say he leads the NBA in 2 stats all time Assist and Steals very important stats in the game of basketball 💯
Max is always right stephen a is always wrong lol but at that time isiah was still better than stockton
Natsu .D. Uzamaki at THAT TIME Stockton was not better than Isiah....it wasn’t even close. Now after 1998 fine but in 1992 Stockton wasn’t on Isiah’s level.
Agree, John Stockton is a true all star and a legend!
You must be a white boy
@gullyroad maybe but it is not a no brainer like they trying to make it out to be. Stockton's numbers are on par and in some cases better than Isiah's.
"HE HAD MALONE"
"I felt stockton made malone, I don't think he would of been the same player if he didn't have a stockton - Isiah thomas"
(he said this on one of the inside nba episodes were they were comparing players in the "game today" that were similar to them when they played)
Exactly! They are trying to argue in favour of isiah using an arguement that isiah disputed when he said Stockton made malone lol. I love how they act like max is wrong. Max is on the money. He said he would take isiah but it would be very close and I agree
@@chandthrukanagarajah Not only is Max on the money, I noticed they never touched the 5 times Stockton was All-NBA in defense and Isiah never was. Defense is a huge part of playing the game and a huge part of greatness.
So Isaiah himself said this... But they're telling Max that Stockton was benefiting from Malone in an attempt to lift Isaiah over Stockton?
@@Javai7 exactly! I cant stand jay will. He hates the rings arguement for lebron because it goes against lebron vs michael, but the only reason these guys are giving putting isiah way head of stockton is because of his 2 rings. Max is also still choosing isiah, and they flipping on him like he said that Stockton is better than isiah.
@@chandthrukanagarajah ur right max said hes takin isiah i dont understand the outrage
I swear every first take thumbnail is Max looking calm and Stephen and guest looking horrified
I would have liked this segment to go further into the top 5 PF of the games. Very interesting names came up.
The stockton disrespect is insane. Noone knocks magic for having kareem, worthy, etc
Great point.
Nobody is saying that Stockton isn't great. Stockton is a great great point guard. But he's not Zeke. That's just a fact.
Yeah, the shade is stupid, Magic had the Second greatest player in Kareem on top of a stacked roster.
@@thomaspitts5161 Zeke is better, But, Max is right by a hair.
That's because Magic was the best player on that Lakers team, it was him leading the team to chips, plus Jabbar was a shadow of his former self. The best player on the Jazz was Malone, not Stockton.
nah, I agree with Max on this one....
those Pistons championship teams had 5 players averaging double figures....Stephen A and J Will acting like Isiah was carrying them completely...he averaged 18
What did Malone have to do with the 3,265 steals? And maybe Malone was so good because of where Stockton put the ball every time he threw a dime? Thomas was not better than Stockton. Period.
So We Faulting Stockton For Having A Spectacular Teammate And Great Leadership Skills? Thats Crazy🤦🏾♂️
You can argue that much of stocktons success is due to malone carrying the jazz
itsaccer you clearly have never seen that jazz team play if u think Malone carried them, so please don’t try to make a ridiculous claim and think it’s valid.
A lot of John Stockton's statistics come from two major factors. One that he played in basically the same system for 20 years... With the same coach and organization. 2 he played with the second leading scorer of all time. He Partially made Malone, but the fact that in 20 years they didn't manage to get to the finals more and bring one home and they were both relatively healthy their whole career and starters. Isaiah Thomas's second best player Joe D was a lot closer to John Stockton's third option Jeff hornacek..... yet they managed to come out and win two championships in their era with Isaiah Thomas leading the way. Even if Utah won the championship it would have been a 90% chance the MVP was going to Malone
Isaiah Thomas had a whole team. The jazz were Stockton and Malone. And that whole offense ran through Stockton.
itsaccer If Anything You Claim Is Invalid I Watched Jazz Games, Stockton Was The Head Of The Offense, Malone Scored The Most Yes But Without Stockton Or The System Which Stockton Know Like The Back Of His Hand Malone Literally Wouldnt Been In The Position To Replicate The Same Kind Of Success