Outstanding video/movie. After much discussion and review among members of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, we agree with muir8009's observation about when the movie was taken. Members have collected information about the modifications to all PRR steam locomotives, and the two "Pacific" class passenger locomotives are PRR Class K2. The last K2's had been modified to class K2s by May of 1922, and the modification is easy to spot, so it is very doubtful this film was taken after May of 1922. There are many other indications of an earlier than 1922 date based on the freight and passenger cars shown, along with the freight locomotives (and the complete lack of anything built after about 1920). I also note that it is clear this camera was mounted on a tripod, and the fine detail is remarkable. Researching early movie cameras a little (by no means an expert) it appears doubtful that this was a hand-held 16 mm movie camera, but more likely a relatively large 35 mm movie camera, a significant investment for the era. We are wondering if there is any more of such high quality late teen's/1920 era movie film.
Amazing history, thanks so much for the comment. I also thought to myself how fantastic the quality of this footage is. Definitely not a disposable camera 😉
This is what I was thinking as well. Also, the headlights on the Pennsy locomotives are the box gas headlamps. By the mid or even early 20s, the headlights had been electrified. But also agree with muir8009 regarding the fashion of the ladies. Late teens to maybe 1920 in my opinion.
Very cool! Most of my early relatives worked for the RR in the various shops in Altoona. They immigrated from Italy in the late 1800’s to the early 1900’s. My Grandfather was one of seven kids, he started in the shops at 14 years old. He was a big man, unfortunately he died in 1954 at 46yrs old, leaving two boys, my father was 16 and my uncle was 9. My father worked after school in a factory, then joined the Marine Corp and sent most of his pay home to help his mother. My Grandma worked as a seamstress for relatives who barley paid her enough to live, which she didn’t complain, but they didn’t miss a Sunday dinner at her house every week, she was an amazing cook. Once my uncle got older he put a stop to all of them going over on Sundays, lol. As a kid I remember the old timers and WWII vets, it was a neat time to be alive.
Even tho the Curve was built 70 yrs previous to this being filmed, it still looks as tho it was just finished. It would be unthinkable today for the public to be able to simply walk along the tracks like this
I don't know why this was recommended to me but it's awesome. I drive past the horseshoe several times a month, and while everyone knows why it's an important sight, most people from the area don't bat an eye at it anymore.
I’m from Coalport and I know exactly what you mean. People don’t give a hoot about anything that isn’t a screen with buttons anymore. Why go to the Horseshoe if you can watch other people go there online? (Sarcasm, I still love going in person)
Brilliant footage - thanks so much for putting this up - I do have a query though: the ladies' clothing looks remarkably late teens (with the heavy well below knee length dresses and the hatwear especially - the cloche hat nowhere to be seen!) rather than mid to late twenties. Noting that the K4 came out in 1914 I'm wondering if the footage may be from the late teens... definitely not being critical, just interested
Just this evening I was watching the Virtual Railfan camera of this same area! The old tower at 1:30 was KN Block Station. Although gone since the early 1930s, there was still a signal here until the last year or so. Today there are three tracks through here and not four.
"Okay ladies, kindly stand near the train tracks and I will get some footage. People are going to be watching you on *CZcams* in 92 years from now!!" "Um, what is CZcams??????????"
The location & spacing of the sprocket holes shows that this is a 28mm film. 16mm was introduced by Eastman Kodak in 1923-1924--this 28mm was introduced to the home market as "Pathe Kok" in 1912-1913. This lends support to the possibility of the film being taken in the late 1910s, not 1928.
Thanks Dabbling! Looks like 28mm had a rather short "career" (See Wikipedia). So earliest is 1912/13 and latest is 1922 based on PRR locomotive class K2 and not class K2s. I wonder when this was converted, and whether it was direct from the original film to digital, or perhaps the original owner had it converted to either 16mm or 35mm film, which was then recently scanned to digital. From the RR equipment there is no way this is post 1922, and while not conclusive, none of the freight locomotives appear to be PRR class L1s (All appear to be class H6Sb or one of the H8 variants.). By WWI, there were lots of L1s on this division of the PRR for freight trains, suggesting this was more likely in the 1913-1915 time-frame. PRR class L1s locomotives were produced in volume starting in 1915, and this division was one of their first assignments, having the steepest mainline grades on the PRR. Over 150 class L1s had been built by the end of 1915. Although only three freight locomotives are evident, the odds of none being a class L1s in 1916 is relatively low, and extremely unlikely by 1918. In addition, PRR's passenger locomotive class K4s was also produced in large quantities in 1917 and 1918 (153 built through 1918), and it is unlikely that class K2 would have been pulling passenger trains around the curve by 1919. As the K4s came on-line, the K2's were relegated to secondary lines or helper service. So highly probable this film was shot between 1913 and 1915 based on film type and locomotives evident. Would be interesting to know which film size the historical society scanned. If 16mm or 35mm, then perhaps 1928 was the date the 28mm film was copied to 16mm or 35mm? Wonder how many 28mm projectors are still available?
@@daveevans2527 No idea what kind of film was still available but wow, you know those locomotives pretty thoroughly! 28mm film projectors survive now & then but I do not mess with old cine equipment much due to the hassle and expense--others are much more passionate than I am. The sprocket holes & general clarity make me think this was not a 16mm copy of a 28mm original--might be wrong but that footage is quite sharp.
I just watched another video about the horseshoe curve. It said their were 2 derailments in 2019. And pictures to prove it. Said they were caused by uneven weight distribution.
I went here today and boy oh boy has the scenery changed from this video. There are more tree's and I am wondering what is the possible reason for there being more or less tree's in the video.
Coal gasses from the steam engines killed a lot of vegetation in the immediate area. The constant rain of cinders did a good job of controlling weeds. The Curve has been in service since the 1850s, although it was modified many times over the years. The fourth track was added circa 1900 and the accompanying addition to the fill may have contributed to the austere scene in 1928.
Much of Pennsylvania was heavily logged from the late 1800's all the way to the great depression. And logging in those days meant clear cutting. I have a co-worker who grew up in Portage, about 25 miles west and he had two uncles that prior to the depression ran their own saw mills - that business cratered when the depression hit and home building ceased. Each disassembled their mills and used the lumber to build their own homes, and then became coal miners - at least some employment there. PA was an environmental mess up into the 50's - check out the river pollution, mine tailing piles, etc in the 1938 aerials at Penn State. The environment today is MUCH cleaner than it was 70 to 100 years ago.
@@daveevans2527 Well said, Dave. You are exactly right about our environment getting better. Back then, every coal town in the area stunk like rotten eggs from the smoldering coal refuse. There is a small river that runs through my mountain town, it runs through an abandoned mine which contaminates the entire river and turns the water green/blue. No wildlife or vegetation in it whatsoever. Sulfur and heavy metal contaminants. I doubt DEP will ever address this small town environmental tragedy. I am just thankful that Mother Nature is indeed thriving here despite our best efforts to destroy her.
Wow. What insane quality for this time period.
I truly believe that this video is better quality than video of conrail taken in the 90’s
No? There is a bunch of conrail videos with great quality at horseshoe curve
My bf and I climbed to the top of Kittanning Point and what a view. I wish the trees were lil more cleared out.
Outstanding video/movie. After much discussion and review among members of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society, we agree with muir8009's observation about when the movie was taken. Members have collected information about the modifications to all PRR steam locomotives, and the two "Pacific" class passenger locomotives are PRR Class K2. The last K2's had been modified to class K2s by May of 1922, and the modification is easy to spot, so it is very doubtful this film was taken after May of 1922. There are many other indications of an earlier than 1922 date based on the freight and passenger cars shown, along with the freight locomotives (and the complete lack of anything built after about 1920).
I also note that it is clear this camera was mounted on a tripod, and the fine detail is remarkable. Researching early movie cameras a little (by no means an expert) it appears doubtful that this was a hand-held 16 mm movie camera, but more likely a relatively large 35 mm movie camera, a significant investment for the era.
We are wondering if there is any more of such high quality late teen's/1920 era movie film.
Amazing history, thanks so much for the comment. I also thought to myself how fantastic the quality of this footage is. Definitely not a disposable camera 😉
Good detective work but the sprocket hole spacing shows it was done on 28mm--which is slightly smaller than 35mm but still took a good clear picture.
This is what I was thinking as well. Also, the headlights on the Pennsy locomotives are the box gas headlamps. By the mid or even early 20s, the headlights had been electrified. But also agree with muir8009 regarding the fashion of the ladies. Late teens to maybe 1920 in my opinion.
Wow! Where's this film been hiding all these years. Fantastic footage. Thanks for sharing.
Very cool! Most of my early relatives worked for the RR in the various shops in Altoona. They immigrated from Italy in the late 1800’s to the early 1900’s. My Grandfather was one of seven kids, he started in the shops at 14 years old. He was a big man, unfortunately he died in 1954 at 46yrs old, leaving two boys, my father was 16 and my uncle was 9. My father worked after school in a factory, then joined the Marine Corp and sent most of his pay home to help his mother. My Grandma worked as a seamstress for relatives who barley paid her enough to live, which she didn’t complain, but they didn’t miss a Sunday dinner at her house every week, she was an amazing cook. Once my uncle got older he put a stop to all of them going over on Sundays, lol. As a kid I remember the old timers and WWII vets, it was a neat time to be alive.
Cool! Thank you for posting.
Thanks for posting. Next best thing to a time machine.
A k4 with a box headlight? Cool!
Even tho the Curve was built 70 yrs previous to this being filmed, it still looks as tho it was just finished. It would be unthinkable today for the public to be able to simply walk along the tracks like this
I love this! I live very close to this site.
I don't know why this was recommended to me but it's awesome. I drive past the horseshoe several times a month, and while everyone knows why it's an important sight, most people from the area don't bat an eye at it anymore.
I’m from Coalport and I know exactly what you mean. People don’t give a hoot about anything that isn’t a screen with buttons anymore. Why go to the Horseshoe if you can watch other people go there online? (Sarcasm, I still love going in person)
Brilliant footage - thanks so much for putting this up - I do have a query though: the ladies' clothing looks remarkably late teens (with the heavy well below knee length dresses and the hatwear especially - the cloche hat nowhere to be seen!) rather than mid to late twenties. Noting that the K4 came out in 1914 I'm wondering if the footage may be from the late teens... definitely not being critical, just interested
what a gloryfull place to have been for any steam railfan the sounds of heaven
YESS, MY DAD TOOK ME THEIR IN THE 40s and into the 50s
Just this evening I was watching the Virtual Railfan camera of this same area! The old tower at 1:30 was KN Block Station. Although gone since the early 1930s, there was still a signal here until the last year or so. Today there are three tracks through here and not four.
It’s amazing how close they got to the trains they got.
Damn for an older video that's some pretty good quality I mean yeah black and white but still kinda clear for those days
I had some ancestors who worked on the rail road back in the 1930’s, the guys lived in a train car during the night until the tracks were built
That's what horse shoe Grive used to look like in the 1979
JUST A SHAME they did not have color film in those day would have been a real nice thing to see.
I agree Jeff, totally awesome video.
thank you. Very nice.
This is a great video.
thanks for sharing
Gotta love how people got all dressed up just to trespass on the railroad tracks 🤣
"Okay ladies, kindly stand near the train tracks and I will get some footage. People are going to be watching you on *CZcams* in 92 years from now!!"
"Um, what is CZcams??????????"
@Patrick Wagz. Trying to 'vote grab' there, aren't we?
@@elrjames7799 Yes, that is exactly it!
@@PatrickWagz You need a slap.
4-track days.
Man if only the Curve didn't have so many trees now, I feel like it would look a lot cooler like how it looks in this video lol
The location & spacing of the sprocket holes shows that this is a 28mm film. 16mm was introduced by Eastman Kodak in 1923-1924--this 28mm was introduced to the home market as "Pathe Kok" in 1912-1913.
This lends support to the possibility of the film being taken in the late 1910s, not 1928.
Thanks Dabbling!
Looks like 28mm had a rather short "career" (See Wikipedia). So earliest is 1912/13 and latest is 1922 based on PRR locomotive class K2 and not class K2s. I wonder when this was converted, and whether it was direct from the original film to digital, or perhaps the original owner had it converted to either 16mm or 35mm film, which was then recently scanned to digital.
From the RR equipment there is no way this is post 1922, and while not conclusive, none of the freight locomotives appear to be PRR class L1s (All appear to be class H6Sb or one of the H8 variants.). By WWI, there were lots of L1s on this division of the PRR for freight trains, suggesting this was more likely in the 1913-1915 time-frame. PRR class L1s locomotives were produced in volume starting in 1915, and this division was one of their first assignments, having the steepest mainline grades on the PRR. Over 150 class L1s had been built by the end of 1915. Although only three freight locomotives are evident, the odds of none being a class L1s in 1916 is relatively low, and extremely unlikely by 1918. In addition, PRR's passenger locomotive class K4s was also produced in large quantities in 1917 and 1918 (153 built through 1918), and it is unlikely that class K2 would have been pulling passenger trains around the curve by 1919. As the K4s came on-line, the K2's were relegated to secondary lines or helper service.
So highly probable this film was shot between 1913 and 1915 based on film type and locomotives evident.
Would be interesting to know which film size the historical society scanned. If 16mm or 35mm, then perhaps 1928 was the date the 28mm film was copied to 16mm or 35mm? Wonder how many 28mm projectors are still available?
@@daveevans2527 No idea what kind of film was still available but wow, you know those locomotives pretty thoroughly!
28mm film projectors survive now & then but I do not mess with old cine equipment much due to the hassle and expense--others are much more passionate than I am.
The sprocket holes & general clarity make me think this was not a 16mm copy of a 28mm original--might be wrong but that footage is quite sharp.
Love the video! Im wondering if I could use the clips in this video in a video of mine, with credit given to you?
Have there been many derailments over the decades on that curve?
I just watched another video about the horseshoe curve. It said their were 2 derailments in 2019. And pictures to prove it. Said they were caused by uneven weight distribution.
I went here today and boy oh boy has the scenery changed from this video. There are more tree's and I am wondering what is the possible reason for there being more or less tree's in the video.
Well, possible at the time they just built it which mean transforming the terrain which also mean cutting trees down.
Coal gasses from the steam engines killed a lot of vegetation in the immediate area. The constant rain of cinders did a good job of controlling weeds. The Curve has been in service since the 1850s, although it was modified many times over the years. The fourth track was added circa 1900 and the accompanying addition to the fill may have contributed to the austere scene in 1928.
@@B-and-O-Operator-Fairmont - The Curve opened in 1854.
Much of Pennsylvania was heavily logged from the late 1800's all the way to the great depression. And logging in those days meant clear cutting. I have a co-worker who grew up in Portage, about 25 miles west and he had two uncles that prior to the depression ran their own saw mills - that business cratered when the depression hit and home building ceased. Each disassembled their mills and used the lumber to build their own homes, and then became coal miners - at least some employment there.
PA was an environmental mess up into the 50's - check out the river pollution, mine tailing piles, etc in the 1938 aerials at Penn State. The environment today is MUCH cleaner than it was 70 to 100 years ago.
@@daveevans2527 Well said, Dave. You are exactly right about our environment getting better. Back then, every coal town in the area stunk like rotten eggs from the smoldering coal refuse.
There is a small river that runs through my mountain town, it runs through an abandoned mine which contaminates the entire river and turns the water green/blue. No wildlife or vegetation in it whatsoever. Sulfur and heavy metal contaminants. I doubt DEP will ever address this small town environmental tragedy. I am just thankful that Mother Nature is indeed thriving here despite our best efforts to destroy her.
I mean 1928
1928 wasn’t Mickey Mouse?!?!?