The Dirty Way Manufacturers are Downgrading Your PC
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
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Memory manufacturers are changing the density of RAM in laptops, and the performance impact is staggering.
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CHAPTERS
---------------------------------------------------
0:00 - Le Intro
0:56 - Cable Mod
1:07 - Intro
1:16 - Is this RAM different?
3:06 - Productivity Testing
5:00 - Game Testing
9:03 - What exactly is going on?
12:00 - lttstore.com
12:07 - What a MUX doing?
14:10 - Does this matter for Desktops?
15:00 - Yep, buying laptops in 2021 is way more difficult than it should be
15:49 - Mine
16:40 - Outro - Věda a technologie
It's great to see this topic covered! It seems like there are so many ways performance can differ with laptops based on specs that aren't even listed anywhere. We finally started to get GPU power limits listed for products, so hopefully RAM details are next. Often it's also not clear whether or not a laptop has a MUX switch either, depends on the brand though.
It's good to see your channel getting more attention, you definitely deserves it for your detailed in-depth reviews 👍
I'm so happy to see that your channel is getting the attention it deserves.
Keep up the good work ✌️✌️
Glad this problem is getting heard of and talk about. Jarrod thank you for investigation the ram affecting gaming performance
There was another clear difference. One is manufactured in China, and other is in Philippines.
Edit: It is written on ram. Notice 2:08 carefully
So, doesn't this happen on desktop computers as long as u get a fine brand?
They sneak into your house and replace your parts with worse ones
this^
Yup
Hahahahahahahahah ,comment of the day
With the pp
Ha good luck finding worse parts I have 4gb of ddr1 or 2(I'm not going to the bios to checks) soddered into the board, and a 1ghz cpu , no way can they find worse
$1650 might be a “cheaper gaming laptop” - but that’s still a lot of money. Enough for them to spend the extra $3 on proper RAM. Getting fed up with the computer market these days.
3 $? more like 30-40 $. And you forgot about the mux he talked about
Put the better RAM and make the buyers pay $1680 them.
Get used to it. Unfortunately, prices for everything will only go up from here….
More money than I've ever spent on a computer, hearing it called "cheap" makes me think Linus needs to hire someone who's poor who can provide that point of view lol
@@fuzzythoughts8020 Pretty much.
I worked for a modem chip manufacturer back in the late 90s. The end modem manufacturers would sell awesome perfect modems for 90 days, until all the reviews were in, then start shipping cost reduced versions afterward. It drove us crazy. Some of them did good quality cost reduction and they still worked well, but others did crap work on the redesign, and the performance took a huge hit.
Isn't that downright fraud? You're not getting the advertised product.
@@user-lv7ph7hs7lI think there's some loopholes they can take like the ram density right here that isn't specified anywhere...
If it weren’t for Tech Channels , manufacturers would be getting away with A LOT of stuff.
They already do. They've already had. We're just seeing the net result of it now.
Just buy a gpd win 3😆
@asdrubale bisanzio well, those manufacturer's market reaches far more than current tech channels anyway. so even if they got exposed here and there, it probably won't make a dent in their revenue. 'tis but a scratch...
...at least for now.
If it weren't for Tech channels, most of us won't even know shit about computers 😁
And even after getting called out for such stuff, some companies still choose to soldier on & mostly turn a blind eye
I'm seeing a lot of confusion here about 1x8 and 1x16 and people thinking it has to do with single and dual rank. This specifically has nothing to do with ranks but everything to do with how a x8 device is configured and how a x16 device is configured within a DIMM.
In the video, Linus touched upon it but I think didn't explicitly state the technical exact reason for the difference in performance. He was very close to it, and I think gave a sufficient explanation for it but here I'll try to elaborate if it interests you.
You can lay out the total capacity for a DIMM in various ways really, in this case you have two ways to achieve 8GB of total capacity (note the bit to byte conversion):
1. 1 rank of 8 chips x 8Gb in density = 64Gb total density = 8GB total density
2. 1 rank of 4 chips x 16Gb in density = 64 Gb total density = 8GB total density
The nomenclature for the device width is related to the total amount of data pins on a channel. DDR4 channels are typically 64-bits wide, so if you have a:
1. x8 device- it means a single rank within the channel has exactly 8 chips to make-up 64 data pins
2. x16 device- it means a single rank within the channel has exactly 4 chips to make-up 64 data pins
Now with the explanation out of the way, you can go deeper into the architectural layout typically found in devices in DDR4:
1. a x8 device has a total of 16 addressable banks (it has 4 Bank Groups and 4 Banks per Bank Group) with a 1KB page size [each page a bank is allowed to open at any given time]
2. a x16 device has a total of 8 addressable banks (it has 2 Bank Groups and 4 Banks per Bank Group) with a 2KB page size
Having less banks available to the MC means you have less resources to interleave and lower chances of extracting the full BW available according to the rated maximum bus speed. The analogy Linus gave about the librarian searching for a book makes total sense with this in mind.
Now the next thing to affect performance is the page size:
Typically the page size usually dictates tFAW (Four Activate Window Time), so it's usually worse for 2KB than it is for 1KB by several nano-seconds which can affect performance [need to look up data sheets for a given device by the given manufacturer to look up exactly what they are].
You can look up the datasheets via google, I quickly found ones by micron for example.
Anyway as for why this happens, this is directly tied to memory advancements really, over time memory chip suppliers make denser chips on smaller nodes. As time goes on they will have more of one kind than the other. Given the density of the DIMM here is 8GB, that means as memory gets more advanced, they can make more wafers to supply everyone in the world (and a bonus is that its cheaper to include less chips on a module to sell for the same 8GB capacity OR to now make denser DIMMs aka 16GB x8 modules).
Hope this long explanation is enlightening to some people here!
Thank you Anthony!
Thanks
I still don't understand but I can tell you know your stuff, thanks for the kind explanation.
Nice
👍
In the server world we've known about the difference in ram density for a long time. There's a cost difference, not a conspiracy. The amd laptop you're testing is the result of cost cutting and keeping the margin to boost profits. It's crappy that any manufacturer would hide the density.
Ram manufacturers are notorious for hiding important specs on their products.
Is it dual rank? Have fun propping off the heat sink (and even then it's never certain).
Which die is used? Go check those forums again and see if you're lucky enough that someone is sure about this.
What is the density? Yeah, good luck finding out before receiving it.
@@paulelderson934 Unfortunately it's going to stay like that because no one knows about the differences in RAM. All most people think about is size and frequency. Until the average person starts demanding more information about their specs it's not going to change.
Was kind of expecting that just from Doing my A+ studies.
This difference is similar to having dual-channel versus single-channel - having twice the density per chip means you have half the channel width to get to the memory.
Manufacturers do this to have the fewest spread of memory types to produce - producing fewer variations is better for inventory - and for the high capacity modules you need x16 or x32 chips (right now), so making an 8GB module leaves you only 4 chips to put on it.
Similar to how SSDs about 10 years ago only got their IOPS specs on the high capacities - each chip got N IOPS and the small devices just had fewer chips, so fewer IOPS.
How far into the video did you watch my guy? He literally said this in the video.
This also happens with SSDs as well. The first batches of drives that go out to reviewers will be fine but later batches may have different/worse/cheaper chips inside. Capacity still the same but read/write times aren't going to be as good as those initial reviews say they should be and mfgrs get better profit margins...
This is why I boycot Kingston. One of their first SSDs back in the day was highly reviewed, but was swapped to a much slower and cheaper chip while keeping the same price. The bait and switch wasn’t noticed until consumers noticed massive benchmark differences. Never again.
@@autosaver Thank you for reminding this
@@autosaver You can start boycotting Samsung now too because they've just done the same thing with the 970 Evo.
@@monkfishy6348 although that may be because they have no choice because the chip shortage is getting worse, not better. The US gov just pumped 20 billion into a company to build a new chip factory because the problem is so bad
@@goldenhate6649 Of course they have a choice, even with the chip shortage. If you need to use different parts, release them under a different model number.
Jarrod's tech finally getting recognition he deserves
Exactly
YO FR
And he really deserve it and more. Let's hope few of LTT subs to JT channels.
It was seriously a huge discovery, that I’m glad he found out about.
@@Ali-Sensei I subbed when they appreciated JT in WAN show
LTT and other tech channels are an absolute necessity in this space and make themselves invaluable to consumers.
Something something 3080ti review. Just look at the comments there
@ape kaspank dude you sound like a trump tweet. Go smoke a beer
@ape kaspank what? this is about a different ram density. this has nothing to do with chinese fakes.
@@Corei14 yeah, it’s amazing how incoherent they are.
@ape kaspank You are also forgetting that America is also complicit with the funding and research.
You're talking about "smart marketing" while manufacturers' websites are still unusable messes of redundant information. I'm looking at you, Dell!
Dell is overpriced anyway
Pls see Eyepatches video on him buying a pc from dell, it's called "buying a pc from dell, my journey into hell" it's honestly incredible how shady dell is
Tbf, most tech support questions companies encounter are from tech-illiterate boomers who don't know basics
Smart usued for the evil like basically all the stuff that exist in this world
Dell is just bullshit at this point. And they are ruining Alienware in the process
It's like the good old days back in the 90's, you combo the right components you get a awesome performance PC, you got to mix & match to find the bottle neck. I remember when my PC was 3 years older than everyone ells at the lan party but I end up running CS or Quake server from my rig as it outperformed everyone's newer PC. lol
Cool
@@DonegalOverlanding It's a reply to a public comment, nobody needs to ask for it just like no one asked for your opinion.
The problem is, most people don't have the time or knowledge for all this shit, and they get screwed, I don't know shit about computers or what the garbage manufacturers are trying to pull off all the time
*else
Here we have a good exemple of someone building his own PC and people buying their PCs at Best Buy. Never buy a PC already assembled, especially for gaming.
The scary thing is that some laptops and AIO's have soldered RAM...
woah!
That's the worst thing. Personally when I look up for new Notebooks is like Soldered RAM = DO NOT BUY
I think I saw a Dell G5 it is actually insanely good. It is like 700 dollars on best buy. Has mid range specs with the Radeon 6700. Also having a ryzen 7. Only limitation is the small amount of ram and storage. But this laptop is built around being able to upgrade those parts and even has a special store for them to buy crucial memory that is compatible.
* cough cough * Acer you know what you did
report this
First SSD speeds and now RAM. We need a new series that covers bad practices by manufacturers.
Ltt has it: "sh1t manufacturers say"
How to Cook That 🤝 Linus Tech Tips
taking down shady practices !!
Just a note: This issue may have affected every comparison review that you have done. XD
Technically, yes.. But. When he is testing pre-built. You need to know the the comparison when you walk off the floor with your new pc. Not what you COULD have if you changed parts out.
XD
@@mgris if they quietly changed which memory they put in existing systems, it will most definitely invalidate the older reviews.
As a computer technician I'm seeing "no" durability or longevity built into new products. It's all throwaway, it's so much worse than just three years ago. I work in healthcare and a CT, MRI, standard X-Ray, and fluroscope were built to last 20 years or more. No longer. Multi-million dollar machines are often delivered broken. The useful life is just 3 years. It's insanity!
I had a newish smart phone break in a odd way. The screen fell off and teared off it's video cable it only connection to the rest of the phone due to get this lack of adhesive stickiness. The adhesive ware out. Only had the phone for a few years.
@@loganshaw4527
It was held together with just adhesives? Bruh 💀
@@thalmoragent9344 up and fell apart like the top of a sub falling off after being dropped on the floor. Not even two feet I was siting at the time.
@@thalmoragent9344 yup adhesive and a very thin flat cable. The cable was thinner then finger nails.
“Gullible humans, fighting between Intel and AMD,
T’WAS I WHO PLAYED THOUSE!!!”
~ DDR4 module
Yare yare...
@@tomf3150 Daze...
😆😆😆
The intel and amd system laptops would have similar performance if asus did not cheap out on the slower bottlenecked ram.
"If you were to buy a computer today"
Nice joke Linus.
@@Matthew-yv3wi nobody is going to fall for this lol
@Storm agreed
wow linus replied and left his crypto link 😟
Laptops aren't hard to find
@@storm9962 yea
Don't forget about the CAS latency too! It's never listed either (even when buying ram sticks individually sometimes) and does affect performance too
The CAS latency is listed on every single stick of ram I can find on any even halfway reliable source.
Yeah it has affected me too. Last year I had purchased Crucial Ballistix RGB 16GB ram and it was dual channel (2Rx8GB). A month ago I decided to upgrade to 32GB so I picked up the exact same kit, same part number and everything, but the new kit is single rank (1Rx8GB). Thus, I cannot use them together and had to return the new kit and am unable to upgrade to 32GB with the same kit now. Thanks Crucial!
What do you need 32gb for? I am unable to get past 16gb ram usage.
@gallectee6032 I use 10gigs on Diablo 4, which doesn't take much. You must be playing ancient games to not reach 16 gigs.
Title: "The Dirty Way Manufacturers are Downgrading Your PC"
Me: "Please, no! My PC can't get more potato than it already is!"
still rocking my i5 4400, 8 gigs ram and a dead gpu that wont post :D ? are yours more potato now?
@@ahmadmuraish1144 running a core i3 2100 with its hd2000 igpu , I definetly can
@@kunjsankhla9317 same specs, but i begin a idiot opened it for cleaning without proper knowledge and now it won't charge. Also opened it again to see what i did wrong the first time and now trackpad is not working.
@@kunjsankhla9317 LOL those rookie numbers, core i5 460m 4gb intel hd graphics can't even run GeForce Now lmao
@@adityasharma-xh8dx last time i tried cleaning my desktop i destroyed the ram
You know it's bad when you can't even download the good RAM.
I downloaded 128 GB of ram and my PC blue screened and didn’t turn back on because there was so much ram!!
Ram.exe has stopped working
Imagine being able to download ram 🤯 that would be mind blowing
They block that feature just so you have to buy a new computer
you need to delve deep into the deep web to find some
This problem has been around since computers were first developed for home use. RAM was is and always will be the first item to be sacrificed.
...this....problem......has been around since Edison beat(by cheating) Tesla in the lightbulb war....while Tesla's bulb is Still burning, Edisons crap shit is The Only one you can get cos it is supporting Planned Obsolescence
exactly, why is linus clueless to that fact?
@@guyinoakland Linus and all his crew are kids, thirtyish maybe.
The surviving 70s gurus all are retired now. the others...
The gurus from the 80s are sixty now, and 80s computers were mostly prebuilt mass market consumer items, sealed boxes mostly with no consumer serviceable innards..
I wish I had someone like you to build my PC for me. I am scared of spending the money without having very extensive knowledge and I wanna go into it knowing it's as optimal as it gets
You have to do the groundwork, anybody on the internet will tell you you overplayed, and their build would've been better.
And guys like Linus would charge for that much info, at that point... they'd just build it for you, or teach you like it's a class.
If you want to learn, comparing prices and specs on newegg or some retailer is where to start.
@@sirsawtooth4044 Thank you I read about parts being better I just don't know WHY they're better you know
@@Kermit_E_Frog take it slow. Step by step. Pick a piece and research each stat one by one. A minute or two on a wiki will give you an idea of what each piece does. You can be as thorough or brief as you want
I cant even switch my pc’s 7 year old cpu ffs
I know the feeling, I still so this, and I've been working with these things for 25 years. Let me give you a tip: Try your hardest to get out of this thought pattern. It's only gonna perpetually consume your time and energy, with ever more diminishing return on that investment - and it will leave you with little time and energy left to actually just enjoy building and using/gaming on it. You may even grow to partly resent it, as eventually you'll np longer associate that computer with fun, gaming and joy - but stress and frustration.
Building a good computer today is very easy. You only need a few little pointers, and a budget to stick to. If you're uncertain of one part will do poorly or well for your needs, if it works ok with the rest of your parts - ask on the LTT forum, and preface your question with explaining you're on a budget and don't need costly upsell suggestions.
Don't stress with those tiny little bits of potential here and there - leave that for XOC if you ever get into that at some point.
"do you want to turn them off first?"
Someone has to protect Linus from himself
And it's not the first time he's been asked that, lmao
I feel there's a half second there where he's deciding if this is a situation where he can say "No" and carry on anyway.
Did Linus deliberately try to be in unsafe or he just totally irresponsible? I mean he was a tech “influencer” right? If some stupid people seeing linus remove RAM like that, won’t they just imitate him? (Don’t underestimate how stupid human can be)
@@yudhistio1653 honestly its how 90% of people act, if he wasn't on camera he might notve corrected himself, its not *that* big of a deal in this case
@@jahnesaisquoi well you could say that if no one use you as reference, it was totally different if you are “the reference”. But it was just my 2 cent.
I like how Anthony is known as the 'Big A" now
Not Fat Tony?
@@Tugela60 stfu, don’t fat shame people
Who's the small A?
@@eddymison3527 Fat Tony.
@@osmantahmazli3943 Idiot, it's a simple observation
I just wanna say, I bought an 8$ thermal paste (i still have more than half) that decreased my medium temp under load by 30 degrees C, literally.... I always has it 97/99 thermal throttling like crazy, now it rarely passes 71/72. I just want to know why they dont invest 2 or 3$ more in a 1000$+ laptop for an amazing performance and life expectancy boost in their machines. Can someone tell me how this greedy "if it isn't written in the specs we get the cheapest possible" mentality is even legal and accepted in the community?
Geez what laptop is that?
@@sebastianangeles predator helios 300, with an 1050 ti 😂
The reason for this is that manufacturers want to use paste that lasts longer.
If your laptop lasted longer, you wouldn't buy as many.
question, what paste did you get?
15:19
Part of the problem is the dumbing down of marketing in order to accommodate consumerism. For the greater part of the 90s computers were still being marketed to technically literate buyers for the most part so spec sheets were quite technical and not an easy read for most "consumers". In order to sell more computers, spec sheets were dumbed down and the information distilled into sort of catch-phrase bits and pieces. Consumers locked into certain technical terms while ignoring others; self proclaimed "computer geeks" on internet forums and newsgroups (remember those?) propagated this limited information as "all you need to know" and marketing departments took note by reducing the amount of technical data included in marketing information and spec sheets. Among the computer literate regarding published specs you began to read more and more, "Why don't they include..."
Limiting the actual technical data published in tech specs has become the norm for most consumer and so-called "prosumer" targeted marketing and user manuals; most manuals today look like comic books compared to the "reference" "technical" or "instruction" manuals from 40 years ago. As you point out, some manufacturers still cater to the computer literate but it appears to me that they are becoming fewer and farther between.
This sort of thing is so prevalent that nn entire channel could be dedicated to keeping manufacturers honest like you're doing in this video. Video posts like this are are really important when people are spending thousands of dollars for equipment they expect to work as advertised and actual published technical data is often not available.
In shops when you see computer you see only
RAM
GPU
CPU
they even cut out motherboard out of equation (which is very important since cheaper motherboards may not use CPU at its full potential )
This perspective has alleviated some of my recent rabbithole annoyance but there should be a spec sheet somewhere, anywhere for these things for nerds like myself who HAS to know. Trying to find the info is driving me up the wall.
This is especially important for laptops with sodered ram.
I've never seen or heard of RAM being soldered. However, I have a HP ZBook at work and 2 preinstalled modules are not accessible so I have no idea how they are configured, or if they may indeed be soldered.
@@burrytellam older cheaper laptops tend to have soldered ram, stuff like notebooks
@@burrytellam Macbooks and some PC computers if they are designed to be thin/light.
@@burrytellam Cheap and crappy laptops eg. McBook Pro usually have soldered RAM.
Its to save those 2 extra dollars for the ram slots.
@@burrytellam You must be new here.
Guys the graphs could use some improvement, takes some time to spot what the difference is and what is what. Please have the two results from the same laptops side by side.
Also the "lower is better" /"higher is better" could be better put at the top of the screen instead of at the bottom.
If someone needs subitles and isn't extremely good at understanding the graphs, it's covered, and they have to pause, deactivate, go back, look, and then activate again, for every time a graph appears.
It's a very stupid design element, but it could help. If subtitles are there to help understanding, why hide information under them?
Exactly, I love their content, but man, they really have no idea how to create a readable graph. Take Hardware Unboxed, for example, they do a fantastic job with the graphs, and I don't understand why LTT arranges them this way. This confusing method has been going on for a while, and they don't seem to be listening to our feedback.
@@CanopusInfinity Not trying to defend the choices made but an explanation of what they were trying to show when they designed these graphs. They were concentrating on the AMD versus Intel performance in the original configuration and with the memory swapped, not the difference between single rank and dual rank memory in the same machine. Once you get your brain to accept this it becomes easier to see the details you are interested in. It could have been made clearer by separating the two groups, but now it is what it is.
I would also have preferred to have the original pair at the top rather than at the bottom, but that's just personal preference. I, like the majority reading this, read from left to right, top to bottom. When comparing configurations like this I expect to start with the original pairing, fast Intel vs. slow AMD, to then transition to the alternative pairing with slow Intel and fast AMD.
W•H•A•T•S•A•P•P
+•1•3•0•4•6•7•2•8•2•7•2
I•n•v•e•s•tc•r•p•t°o
B•T•CA•N•D •E•T•H...
Thank's for commenting
nice video, greatly shows the issues I've had trouble explaining people for years when discussing PC building. You can stick the fastest CPU in the world on your MoBo, but if you don't look closely at the RAM you stick on, you'll always end up limiting what you can get out of that CPU. Waste of money if not aligned appropriately. Why spend hundreds on a CPU just to cheap out on RAM.
That's why am still holding on to my old machine during this pandemic.
Yeah but the problem is bigger than that. This is the default trend in big tech right now. They basically just do what they want with no competition. They compete with themselves, charge insane royalties for basically nothing, jack prices up, steal information, pay no taxes and character assassinate any political opponents. This will not be changing any time soon, and by the time we get people in govt who can understand the BS it will already be too late.
My laptop suddenly overheat with forced updates.. Only to know that they set it on default for turbo boost, simple trick in youtube overcome these prob.. Dirty developer..
@@jameswashington4704 Govt wont help you who do you think is putting money in their pockets?
@@gokublack8342 So true. And they are the only people that could prevent these things from happening. The people could band together and not support evil companies... wait here come CNN and Fox News! Nevermind. Lets just keep arguing over imaginary crises for another 8 years while corporate America quietly steals the money we could use to just fix the problems that we are fighting over....
@@jameswashington4704 Bussinesses control the Govt. and the Govt. control the media
“The big A’s; Asus, AMD, and Anthony” 😂
Long live our supreme nerd, lord Anthony!
Thissssssss
omg you saw the same video too
Where timestamp
Yeah it’s ridiculous that the “normal” a’s (Asus and AMD) are included with the one and only big A
"If this continues, I'm going to get a Mac ... actually no I won't. I like gaming too much. I'll just be bitter and complain about instead." LOL!
The subtle reminder that Canadians are the misguided children of the British.
Wow! How funny! You directly quoted the video we all just fucking watched
@@willchase5692 Wow! How enlightening! You wasted your and our time to mock someone needlessly for finding something amusing!
Install linux
@@willchase5692 Get a grip. It's call a reaction to a part of the video I found assuming. Apparently so did may others.
It would be extremely helpful if in addition to now listing the RAM module density types for all pre-built systems, but also if you list which ones use MUXes and what kind.
e.g. Alienware Gaming Laptops have $$$ MUX.
In all of my days of benchmarking computers, after a memory swap, the only true way to test the 2 systems would be to reload them after installing the different memory. Then, and only then, will you get the true benchmark performance results. This goes back to the old days, and it still holds true. Please do the test after said full reloads. I'd like to see what your final results would be then.
Pro Tip: Don't buy a computer right now unless you absolutely need to.
I wonder what the Zeyphrus G14 has.
@@handlemonium yeah I was watching this, thinking “hmmm, what about the G14” because I might buy one
Macbook M1 for work, quite a good purchase right now.
Just bought a ROG Strix G17 for about $1,300 on eBay with a 2070 Super. It was a bit over MSRP, but what isn't right now? Satisfied with it for now and have been getting lucky with auctions and patience on there. Lastly, don't buy any laptop/desktop with a 30' series GPU at the moment. 😅
Hmmmm
*Tech giants:* hoping no one would find out.
*Tech reviewers:* "Hold my beer."
Linus: Hold by LTT water bottle
Hold my ram
czcams.com/video/4rnOtCwv5zw/video.html
Good info to know! I've also recently learned that many laptop manufacturers advertise their DDR4 RAM as 4266MT/s, which some may think is faster than 3200MHz. I've been more into customizing laptops lately, and info is definitely less available compared to desktops.
Well, Apple sometimes does things differently. Sometimes they change components to some cheaper ones AND increase the price of the product. Double profit.
They are 2 trillion dollar company.
@@vidyutdevam9204 that's exactly why
Apple ditching the Mag-Safe power connector is proof positive that they know where their cash cow is - encouraging and aiding the high cost of repairing the inevitable damage to the newer USB-C power connectors. The tech industry is nothing but lies and misdirection.
I like how Anthony's input is equally important as the direct feedback from Asus and AMD. It's probably worth more honestly.
Less biased too. No corporate speak nonsense.
@@n1t21r3 Corporate speak doesn't equal bias per se, but corporations sure are biased in general.
Go Anthony!
@@pksavant B
Here here!!!
RAM timings, or at least latency, should always be disclosed.
why doe?
@@ahbabraufahmed3058because it should be easy to know what youre buying.
@Ahnaf Ahbab, even if you had ram with the highest frequencies, the ram stick can still be slower than a ram stick with excellent timings and mediocre frequencies if its timings were garbage, since “frequencies” in ram are the operation cycles per second while the latencies represent how many cycles are needed to perform a single task (which is represented as time between each action).
@@ahbabraufahmed3058 same reason the CPUs or GPUs specs should be listed.
Almost all RAMs have their latency disclosed. What this video is showing is called "Rank". Even that is disclosed. The problem is with laptops that sell inbuilt RAM without specs
great video hooked on your channel learning a lot of stuff from you keep it up!
The performance issue could be coming from different tCAS (Column-Activation), tRAS (Row-Activation) and tBA (Bank-Activation) timing differences. Not all RAM chips have the same performance when it comes to Row, Column and Bank activation, and the higher these latency are, the slower the module performs. Motherboard usually detects these numbers (and adjust Memory-Controller accordingly) based on SPD (Serial-Presence Detection) chip installed on the module itself.
So this may have got not much to do with the number of chips present (and number of Bits each chip is contributing to the data-bus over all), but the wait-time required by the module as a whole. This also means that you may have two memory-modules performing differently at an identical frequency of lets say 3,200MHz.
Fun fact thats sorta odd, Path of Exile will give you an active readout of latencies of your system in game
@@goldenhate6649 Sorry not familiar with Path-of-Exile. The information I shared is what I work with when I design embedded mother-boards (CPU or FPGA based). But still, would be interested to know what metrics Path-of-Exile reports.
while u went into details this is what is difference betwen ram 1 and 2 in video...
@@mitjapintar4609 Dual-Rank RAM module has more chips than Single-Rank. This means more chips are attached to the same address and command signals, resulting in more capacitive load being applied to those lines.
More capacitive load translates into slower transition on the line (from zero to one and vice-versa), resulting in lower overall performance (given identical tCAS, tRAS and tBA).
That chart showing a MUX actually shows an AND gate. The correct representation of MUX is a trapezoid
you're correct, that's indeed an AND gate and not MUX gate
Yup they often mess up schematics. A MUX does use AND and NAND gates, maybe that's how they got confused.
*Electrical Engineers begin furiously typing
Big shout out to Jarrod's Tech btw, his content is really solid.
Who?
@@KinnetMontana literally in the first 30 seconds of the video.
This information is so valious for me. I have searched a lot for it. Thank you so much!
i'm not surprised that ram has this much effect. way back when we only had cpu's like 333mhz where all we could do to boost performance was overclock the cpu and get as much fast ram as you can fit. it used to make quite a difference. i remember being on top of the world because i had 500mb of ram in my pc!
Ram density should be disclosed on ALL machines that are in reviewed.
🐏
@@UltimatePerfection wut?
@@inkbean4826 He said Ram, which is a male sheep, not RAM, which is Random Access Memory.
It can't really be left to the reviewers because it's often not in the specs. As AHOC covered, even most desktop kits sold to enthusiasts don't disclose which chips, dual or single rank or x16 vs x8 configurations are used. This bait and switch problem has been seen in many other computer related products, like SSD makers switching controllers, NANDs, DRAM or all on a product. Even complete consumer products like wireless routers often have 2 or 3 revisions within the same marketed model which may have completely different wireless chips, CPUs, and RAM/storage configs.
....I love that Anthony is a "Big A". Yes, Linus. Anthony is everyone's favorite Big A.
Apple?
Aardvark?
Biggie Anth. This is the alias Anthony will use when he goes on to follow his rap-carreer.
No, Atrioc
Ass.
Im looking forward to seeing these reviews of specs on upcoming systems
I finally did this Swap on my laptop and also saw a 20% + uplift in gaming. Thankyou for spreading knowledge like this.
Linus is going deep into the world of investigative journalism at this point. He should have a dedicated team just for that purpose at this point.
I agree
He kinda already does. Anthony is basically a hermit who ingests all info from all sources.
Yes, so shouldn't this be a gate of some kind? RAM-gate?
His current teem seems to be doing a good job so far. If's it's not broke, don't fix it. And if he was to change his teem, they may not know the content, of what's being looked for, as well as what he now has.
It's like asking a pro boxer to play pro football. He may turn out to be good at it, but not likely to be the pro as those already doing it, to start with.
"Company ABC pulls big brain move to improve bottom line, damages reputation, and hurts bottom line."
Same sad old story.
P.s. "The RAMpocalypse" has a better ring to it, hemmper man.
The RAM timings are the same for both X16 and X8 memory chips. The performance penalty is that X16 chips use the slow timings more often than the x8 chips.
EDIT: Explanation here czcams.com/video/w2bFzQTQ9aI/video.html
please make a video about this mate
Slow timings? Explain please
@@PC_Gaming_Tech I already made a video about this
Your comment seems made up.. What do you mean by timing? Do you mean buffering? Or clock ?
2 sentences to explain what I didn't get in a 16 minutes video. Thank you.
At the end of the videos I wasn't even sure which one was preferable...
Hey so I'm just watching to learn about ram density, and at about the 12 minute mark you say that in future you will disclose the ram density of any gaming laptop you review, however i can not recall an instance of this, maybe i missed one i dunno, but you made a good point and it does matter, soooo
Thanks for this info. I wasn’t aware the performance difference was so significant.
I need the "Anthony" logo on a white shirt. Like now. TAKE MY MONEY FASTER!
IF IT'S DONE, I'd hope Linus gives a big percentage of the earnings to Anthony. I know he's an employee and all that, but it's his image nonetheless.
THIS ^ But on different colored shirts as well. 09:12 for reference.
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Thank for commenting
I want one made out of the word "LINUX!!" That from a distance looks like Anthony's head.
This is legit why I watch this channel. Your everyday vids are sweet as well, but your knowledge pool allows you to uncover and flesh out issues of this importance. It’s that, that makes you an indispensable asset in the world of technology. Sincerely, thank you all for the good work you do!! 🙏🙏
Great video... thanks for awareness
Engineering corners exist in all machines and shopping price almost always includes little reductions in something. When shopping for a then new computer at Circuit City's select your own kiosk, I once noticed that after I upgraded the HDD in size $100 worth, it sped up but the ATA 33 interface did not. So I threw in another $33 for a 2nd and faster interface (ATA-100) just to get that 3X boost in disk transfers on my $2400 machine. It took a couple of days of study to learn it. But saved me a few weeks of time by using the faster machine.
I think many manufacturing lines simply stick them together with available parts: lack of care and lack of consultation with the system engineers and testing is probably the main reason this happens. For the company, it's just marketing spec number Bingo.
You need to make this series official: a "S#!t Manufacturers Do" playlist covering all this kind of stuff, to complement the "S#!t Manufacturers Say" covering all the wack/fake advertising.
Lover the idea!! Make it happen Linus!
This!
Asus: want money
Amd: want money
Anthony: Ah finally the answer is here
Capitalism
Same story with my alienware x17....upgrading ram with low density memory got a significant upgrade as well.
0:15 no one gonna talk about his wallpaper?
Proud to be your sponsor, Linus!
Seems like our service is so impressive that there's no need for a clever segue 🤓💪
lol! I noticed it too
Haha nice. Great product you guys!
Isn't it spelled segue?
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@@panos21sonic It is.
I have 100% felt this when building, I thought I was crazy, I didn't even look into it, I ended up throwing the old memory out because I thought it was crappy cheap ram lol
You could have sold it for $30 or so on Ebay instead of throwing it away. It can make someone on a low budget happy.
@@citizenguy he probably didn't actually throw it out lol
@@oblivionlord1242 I bet he put it in the drawer
Lies. You can't even buy ram nowadays and you are telling me you have the nerve to throw one away.
This was about 4 or 6 years ago, yeah I did throw them away, I saw them as faulty second hand parts.
I decided to look back at my old tests from pre memory jump, and yeah it's quite a difference, I went from 16 to 32 on my ram and my bandwidth went up about 9%. Older laptop, still running a 1660ti.
I have a Lenovo Ideapad 3 that I use to record music. I've had some performance issues (glitches, freezes, etc) with my DAW, so I've decided to upgrade it from 8 to 16GB. The stick I just pulled out is a 1rx16 (8GB). The new stick is a 2rx8 (16GB), which is a bit confusing. Hopefully I'll see an improvement.
Teacher: there’s no difference between 8 x 4 and 4 x 8
Linus: well yes but actually no
@Endative whaaat?
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@Pinned by Linus Tech Tips Nice trick, your developers should be smarter next time with the "Pinned by " message should only show as a parent comments, not in sub-comments.
Linus: "It's much easier to inspect your Desktop RAM."
Also Linus: Shows module that is completely covered by a heatsink.
In most situations, you can still see if there are chips between the heat spreader and PCB; if there is a big gap on one side, it's single sided.
He also pointed out that it's much easier to get information on the product through the manufacturers website on what way the module is set up.
@@ALATON157 Hasn't been true of late. Of the many RAM kits I looked at when putting together my newest build, only ONE (Gskill trident Z) listed this information.
@@ALATON157 Did you notice how when they showed the G.SKILL page, they didn't actually show an example of G.SKILL listing RAM as 1x8 or 1x16? I went on the page myself, as I have Ripjaws. Clicked on my RAM, and................nothing. I also thoroughly enjoyed Linus talking about how easy it is to see this on desktop RAM when you can't see anything except G.SKILL and Ripjaws branding on the RAM he decided to use for this. So, that little segment was utterly worthless and really told us nothing.
Apart from that, and AHOC tells in his video, manufacturers usually don't tell more than necessary just in case they need to change the internal components due to availability
Although I am not a gamer nor do I own a laptop and much of what you said I did not understand, but I did get the gist of what you said. My son, who built my desktop system, is an IT would really love what you discovered. He is also a gamer. As for me, I own stock in 2 fabless semiconductor companies, one of which is TSMC. So I find your video very fascinating and informative. I appreciated this information and insight in the computer industry. Thanks....and a "Thumbs Up".
BTW, my first computer was an Atari 64XL in 1985.
This is such good content for budget and smart buyers.
As someone who always looks to get the best for less I can appreciate this, I learned something today, thank you.
Anthony being on the same level as AMD and ASUS - seems appropriate.
Disliked, Anthony is better than both of them. He'd one shot both of the companies using only 0.1% of his power
Coinflip bruh stop simping for him. ik he's great but this is going too far.
@@jayden08 AMOGUS
@@alihassan4060 EMERGENCY MEETING
Well this what happens when people walk in and ask “I want 16 kilos of RAM”
"16 kilo gRAM"
It is worse now because behind the counter, the "tech" there also talks like this and doesn't really know what he is talking about lol
@@ryzenforce It's worse 'now'?
I'm an old(ish) timer and it's been like that for years. And years. :)
@QuyVanTe getting on toward 20, depending where you are.
Edit: well, no, most places just stopped employing techs at all. Nothing but bog standard barely trained retail workers.
@@laurencefraser I've had to convince attendants that they DID sell the product i was looking for, but they didn't know what it was, so i had to search the store myself.
I have an Asus TUF laptop and the stock ram is some Micron crap, it's 3200mhz but CL22.
Changed it to a Fury impact 2933mhz, CL17, 2 x 8 and oh boy did it boost performance by a sh*t ton!
Is seems to me that optimization at the OS level will have implications for the impact of density. That may be why some of your results seem to be a bit wonky, as latency changes and other stuff I was only half paying attention to. But think of it like this: if I know I have 8 librarians running around, I can send my 8-volume encyclopia off to be stored 1 volume on each chip. But if I only have 4 librarians running around, I can send 2-volumes to each chip "stapled" together as a single volume. The key is that I MUST KNOW how many librarians I have. If I have 4, but think I have 8, I will end up sending 8 volumes to 8 locations and most likely that will be 2 per chip, but not in any particularly decent location. OR, on the other hand, if I thought I had 4 librarians but really I actually have 8, I might not bother storing each volume in a place that 1 librarian can get to. For example, I might still send two volumes stabled together to each of the first 4 libraries. Or, if you are looking at, say, a librarian going to the back room to get you a micro-fiche, if you think you only have 4 librarians, you might only bother to turn on 4 micro-fiche readers (i.e., use only 4 registries on your processor), meaning you can't read all 8 volumes of data at the same time... even though you might have 8 micro-fiche readers on the chip, if you were expecting 8 slides back, you might not bother to use all of them as it would be more complicated.
"Did you wanna turn those off first?"
*Sigh.*
146 likes but I'm first comment huh
@@highlandicey2135 I didn't expect any likes, let alone comments so hey
@@slayerdwarfify lol
E
Ikr... XD
"The Big A's: Asus, AMD, and Anthony." Absolutely the truth. :-)
Actually the only relevant big A is Apple. Microsoft is cancerous
@@quinxx12 Microsoft was never mentioned as a big A so...
Tripple A game
@@quinxx12 Imagine thinking apple is better than Microsoft LOL
@@quinxx12 apple isn't much better these daysz
I believe it depends on manufacturer, but also on the shop. For example Kingston has this information available on homepages, even in some shops.
We've known about this for well over 10yrs now. The multiple smaller ram chips will clear out faster than larger, yet fewer ram chips which will take longer to flash out. However, larger ram chip should write better since it can store more per chip yet slower cpu since longer to flash out.
I literally understood nothing before the librarian example. Thanks a lot for including it!!!
Same bro😂
@@prajwalluche1547 🙌🙌🙌
My laptop had 1x8gb RAM, I upgraded to 2x8gb (16gb total) and my FPS went up like 30-60% depending on the game, granted MSI didn't lie about it being single channel, but RAM does make a massive difference, especially from single to dual channel.
That performance difference is because of dual channel and 16 gigs. That makes a huge difference, so your result doesn't say anything.
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60%? You're kidding right?
@@shutupnavikrant Nope, 60% performance gain isn't unreasonable for single channel vs dual channel.
@@CaptainChrom well, unless he was maxing out his RAM (which is extremely unlikely), the 16 gigs didn't really matter much. He could have taken out the 8gb stick and slapped in 2 x 4gb sticks and seen the same performance improvement. I've gamed on 8 gigs for YEARS and never once tapped it out playing a game. I did add more once I started going virtual machines on my system for my home lab, though. If not for that I never would've had to upgrade my RAM.
This is exactly why I never buy a laptop. The day they have home build laptop options, I'm there, but there are always so many corners cut, and higher price only means they cut everything they felt they could get away with at the price point. Once upon a time, before subtimings were much of a thing, it was common understanding that if you want faster memory, you buy the same capacity with more modules.
You really have to do a video where you go even deeper into the topic explaining differences between single rank/dual rank (/quad rank) and the dependency on the type of onboard memory controller...
While we are at it, it would be swell if they listed if RAM was single or dual rank.
For sure, heck even just a full spec pdf or something we could download and read all this nerd stuff. I wouldn't even care if it was 30 pages long or something like that. Control + F is our friend
It boils exactly down to x16 or x8 though. single rank is 8 chips, dual rank is 16. And I'm not sure where you are checking, the world is a big place, but not only is my website of choice to browse through entries capable of displaying such information while linking to the manufacturer data, and the direct vendor sites (that is.. anything but amazon) are usually also listing this piece of information.
@@Khunvyel Where did you get that from? If you look at 2:12, both DIMM types show 1Rx8 or 16. 1R means single rank, so both are single rank. Is highlighted as the answer here: superuser.com/questions/989572/what-does-the-1rx8-mean-vs-2rx8-for-ram-and-are-they-compatible/1155131#:~:text=1Rx8%20means%20it%20is%20a,memory%20chips%20on%20a%20module.
Yes, that would be swell.
@@Frizzy9000 The problem starts at the fact that we can no longer visually indicate "chips" any more on SODIMMs. If you just counted the chips on the RAM shown by Linus, you'd see one stick has 4 chips, the other has 8. Configuration wise we talk about 8 or 16 though. So the 1R16 and 1R8 are already misleading labels, because the chips are twin-lets. The regular standard formula is [ranks] x [chips] or at least that is what it should have been. And even if they say that 1x16 refers to BOTH sticks, meaning there is a TOTAL of 16 chips, then the labelling is again even worse because really, that's not how it works. It's the same issue how nm manufacturing became a marketing stunt instead of actually having any real measurement. But back to our chips:
So 1R16 does not mean there are 16 chips in a single line any more (technically, 1R16 doesn't even exist, but industry standards be damned). They can be separated into two rows in the front (in a 2x4 configuration left and right at one side) or in a 1x8 configuration on either side. And now factor in that we do not get the actual number of chips any more on SODIMM (laptop memory) because of the twinchip design. What you maybe have spotted though, is the size of the chips. You can physically gauge if it is a twinlet chip or not, provided the one product screenshot you get is accurate.
On regular RAM this isn't the issue. 1R8 means you get one row of 8 chips in the front. 2R8 means you either have 1 row of 8 in the front and 1 in the back, or both rows are front. This is why it is referred to as single rank or dual rank.
Now there is more than that. There is quad rank and even octa rank ( as seen by the RAMstick from Samsung RDIMM 256GB, DDR4-3200, CL26, reg ECC (M393ABG40M52-CAE) although that samsung chip has exactly that labelling issue again. There they write it as 8R4 , and that might be an indicator of how they are wired internally. If not, it becomes a regular quad rank 4R8 design).
In the end what does all that mean;
The less chips (or chiplets) are on the board, the less the memory controller of the CPU is taxed. This is an old issue. A really old issue. This dates as far back as memory controllers being on a bridge instead of the CPU, so basically it dates as far back as DIMM sticks exist. This just didn't come up now or also hasn't come up with the AMD thing a few years ago when it came to understanding what the best RAM for the Ryzens really is.
Which is exactly what I expected this video to be about. Less ram chips with more density = less tax on the memory controller = more performance in general.
Think of it as bookshelves. If you were to double the amount of shelvings then you have to arrange your books quite differently, you might even have to lay down some books horizontally because now there is not enough room for them to stand upright. The amount of your books doesn't change. Only the arrangement. But this means it causes you more time spent arranging them.
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
Replace "standards" with *deception*
XD
Lol I read: The nnice thing about sandals is...
As an engineer, I'd buy this shirt.
Thank you for this video!
I did not expect thisa much gain of hidden performance, lol...
This video pops up after every rare occation I have to see a loading screen
The librarian metaphor was really great. Super easy to understand the difference. And I would expect no different from this epic channel
Jarrod's Tech is the most underrated tech channel. So happy his channel has grown so much because he constantly tests and notices these type of things.
Even a few years ago before anyone noticed, he was talking about the performance loss with no MUX switch for some games like CSGO, Overwatch, DOTA, etc.
So it happened with other gaming laptops too? I saw about this issue on his legion 5 pro review.
I love the content. It would be nice to see the impact at 1440p, where the disparity between NVidia and AMD mobile graphics really seem to grow. I wonder what the impact would be in a case where the CPU is less of a limiting factor.
Also, please, your graphs require extra reading. "Fast RAM", "Slow RAM", "Stock" = Fast on one system but "Stock" = slow ram on the other system. Then the graphs organized Slow next to Fast, next to Slow, next to Fast. Simplicity, please.
This makes me remember the problem with SRM hard disks that where like... 70% slower than normal disks... (
250fps. Good Lord, I remember the 16bit Windows 95/98 days of being not only satisfied but ecstatic to play anything with close to 30fps.
I'm still excited to play something close to it 30 FPS, I really need upgrade to an actual PC
That wasn't very demanding game. Don't expect to get even close to those numbers in every game.
You know novadays 60 FPS is the minimum because otherwise it's "unplayable"!
The human eye can only see 5 fps..
OhYa, me too!..hellzbellz..i even remmy Win 3.0 ..& 3.1!(Loved 3.1 it was so Configurable!).......& my Very First computer, my beloved 1984 monochrome Mac, held a Whopping 128K....lol.....*creaks*
I just put in an order for a lenovo Thinkpad P14S and now I'm really hoping the soldered ram stick is low density. The removable stick of ram would be great also but atleast I can switch it out if not. As much as their ram costs I'm hoping they don't skimp.
the same problem is with screens in laptops. A lot of specs often is hidden (latency, brightness, color reproduction, brand ect). Nowadays the screens are so poor quality.
Linus: "The Dirty Way Manufacturers are Downgrading your PC!"
Me watching from my 10 year old potato Lenovo T410 Laptop: "Those bastards!!!!"
@@eDoc2020 you're not familiar with sarcasm on the internet, are you?
LTT.........For when you need something more than coffee but less than cocaine.
.
^^^^^^^
*The FBI would like to know your location*
Fun fact - You got the most hearts from linus
Lmao
I would really like to see more coverage like this on ram in the future because there isn't just 1Rx8 and 1Rx16 to worry about. There is also 1Rx4, and there are multiple rank numbers too. So you have 1Rx8, 2Rx8, 4Rx8, etc. That's a total of 9 types of ram from 1Rx4 to 4Rx16 plus 8Rx4 for a total of 10, so it would be beneficial to see how much of a difference this makes across the spectrum. Also, not all of this ram is made unbuffered (eg, 8Rx4 only comes ECC), so the potential for server ram is also a consideration.
That desktop background is amazing
The worst is slow soldered ram because you can do nothing about it
You can not buy that crap
Eww
You completely misspelled “garbage”
What is soldered ram? Can anyone please explain, thanks
@@-SPECTRE- like that name says: ram that is soldered to the motherboard. That means you can't replace it or upgrade it!