Springfield Hellion VHS port explosion? What just happened?
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
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The Springfield Hellion, aka VHS, has been misbehaving a bit for us lately. We've been catching it experiencing large port explosions while firing. We try to drill down to figure out what might be wrong with the new Springfield Hellion bull pup. Several industry experts chime in with their thoughts on what might be causing the issue.
#Hellion #Springfield #bullpup
hmmm, my friend has a VHS, and it is happening on his, no suppress on it. but here in Fairbanks Alaska, we shoot normally at first light, and the temps are about zero to 5 degrees. we thought we were crazy, when he called the customer service, they acted like he was making it up.
Maybe it's just a cold weather thing. We think it happened once with no silencer but it definitely happens far more with a silencer. It will be another year now before we're cold enough here to try it out in super cold weather with and without the silencers.
@@bitshakydefensellc7604 We will likely freeze it over night, freeze the ammo and silencers, then take them to the range in a cooler perhaps. We'll see. But I am curious if it will happen in warmer temps. I was out shooting a couple days ago when it was in the low 60's and it happened twice. It startles the piss out of you when it happens, even when you know the possibility of it happening exists. LOL. You feel the blast of heat to your face and your vision catches the fireball off to the side.
@@bitshakydefensellc7604 the only ammo we use is 5.56, mostly military surplus 62gr green tip,
@@Militaryarmschannel had an update this morning, the group we shoot with were out at 5am, to do some night shooting. all the ammo was surplus green tip, and it really flash's in the dark, he did put a box of wolf, out of 20 rd, about 4 small fireball's out the port.
A cold gun may result in a slightly tighter chamber fit if the bullets are also at a significantly warmer temperature. If so, temperature differential should no longer pose an issue once the chamber warms up with a few rounds.
It’s 100% Tim’s fault, only at the Mac range do guns break this bad
The gun gods have forsaken him.
I think it’s cuz he always ACTUALLY runs a high round count through weapons and doesn’t clean them most of the time so they get the infantry treatment I call it.
Kentucky ballistics would like to have a word with you…
@@1gamedaily815 This. We shot the crap out of guns thanks to our friends at Federal and now Norma. We don't shoot 5 mags while filming a video, call it good and move on to the next review. COVID was hard on us for a while, as it was everyone else, and ammo was short. That's eased up some and we're now getting more ammo again and we're able to properly run these guns in different configurations and environments. Thanks for watching.
I also break a lot of guns. However my Safe Queens don’t ever break and my log books show a direct corollary with volume of fire. Mac fins it so it’s science, I don’t so it’s bad luck or gremlins.
Tim: Only happens when it's cold outside
HS Produkt Engineer: " I see somebody doesn't appreciate our intermittent heater function. Some of us care if you're warm Tim!"
I didn't say it was a bad thing. 😃
G̶r̶i̶p̶ Fireball Zone
No explosion from my VHS approaching 1,000 rounds without suppression. Located in Florida, all shooting has been done above 65 degrees ambient temperature
It is attributed to the variable in flame-deterrent (burn rate) coating on the powder. Firing across a chronograph will indicate the anomaly as V changes. The timing/unlocking of the action is controlled by the bolt carrier/cam pin path which remains constant. The same is noted in belt-fed MGs as the flame is present at times noted at the ejection port during long bursts of fire.
It’s the Flux Capacitor inside the fully semi-automatic assault rifle gun malfunctioning due to the low temperatures. I would recommend switching to a lower viscosity blinker fluid and upgrading to fully semi-automatic magazine clips to compensate for the climate change.
🤣🤣
@Frank Bonazza III Just dip the rifle in a bucket of steam and everything will be fine.
Forgot to check the ID10t fault code too
Yes but it’s very possible the issue is with the turboencabulator nut as part of the hydraulic gas system.
Customer service: did you try turning it off then turning it back on?
Aren't "fireballs" coming out of the ejection port, generally indicative of early unlocking of the gun where pressures haven't quite dropped down enough yet, hence the combustion gases coming a bit down the barrel? It reminds me of Sage Dynamics' video of the Bren 2 Ms pistol which was WAY overgassed and you could see fire coming out of every orifice in low light.
Orifice 😆😆😆
@@Pfsif poor guy that sounds horrible :(
🤦♂️💪 I picked up an AR(.308 sized) upper in 300WSM with a 26.5" barrel. Setup nice, big scope, great ammo. Magnum KAK BCG with dual ejector pins.
Was noticing Federal ammo 180gr hog hammer causing 😳 pin stamping and twist-spin smearing of the base stamp info.
Ended up being the lack of adjusting gas, so much pressure was causing the bolt to turn, and there was still enough pressure to hold it in the chamber until it lowered and unstuck the chamber walls.
I went with the Superlative Arms gasblock with the bleed off and was able to see the extra going out near the front of the rifle.
First time I ever saw or heard of it but, magnum size comes with magnum gas...lol
oh, also had primers a little off, like still enough to stamp them - chamber jump I guess..
@@TimMayville sounds like a sweet rifle
It isnt in this case. It is not the primary propellant blowing out but the fuel air mixture trapped in the barrel and can that goes boom after the round goes off. You will never see this on the first round.
You should contact Chris at Honest Outlaw....he just posted a 1000 round of the Hellion and it looks like most of his shooting was done when it was very cold out.
He is a poor and probably sold it already.
@@TekknoTrain Not the mention the biggest olight shill. I trust nothing he says.
@@Dylan-nv9sc Lol you're on a MAC video, complaining about shills. They are all shills on here, if they want to keep getting those free guns they have to toe the line.
You got that right!
I would record it at 34,000 fps in high definition and truly get a better idea of what is happening. I don’t have a suppressor for that rifle otherwise I would do it. Regards
FWIW, to rent the Phantom High Speed video camera that can record in these extremely high frame rates is fairly involved and quite expensive and you need a technician with the camera who is familiar with the setup and operation. I've rented them before and it's generally about $5k- $10k for a days shoot with camera, technician and you also need a TON more lighting to actually photograph anything at those kinds of frame rates.
Maybe Tim and Co. can extend an invitation to the Slow Mo Guys or whoever Larry Vickers works with for his videos? Would be super cool to see this and actually be able to possibly figure out what the heck is actually happening.
@@danbrockettDOP Wow, they ask that much for a day? We bought one of those cameras for about 90k 10 years ago, but it was imported to our country and I guess that it was purchased trough a reseller. And they ask 10% of that price for a single day of use? The thing is not that complicated to use, our students do it with minimal training.
@@magoid rental is always vastly more expensive than purchase, largely to cover wear and tear, and also because you don't know when Pvt Shmuckatelli is going to be the one using it, and it comes back all brokey.
Omg look at the likes. Hahah. Drop me a line if you wanna meet. As long as you can reproduce the malfunction i can recorded easily. I been using the phantom for a few years, you don’t need a technician as a comment mentioned but it definitely requires a lot of photography and slow motion video knowledge.
@@PistolasFritas We will have to see if it happens in warmer temps. So far we've seen it happen in the 60's now. It's not as frequent, but it is happening. If that's the case, we'll perhaps try to meet up. We shot 300+ rounds for this video and caught it twice. Once it happened but because we're running 30fps the camera didn't catch it, it happened between frames. My camera doesn't do 4k at 60fps. The day before it was happening every magazine. So that's a lot of potential time on the range and a lot of video to shoot.
My guess is it's back pressure related. When the Hellion is suppressed there are two potential areas of back pressure, the suppressor and the piston. Either one, or both seem to be sending incomplete combustible gasses backwards, kind of like water hammer but with gasses instead.
Did you watch the entire video?
Low temps can slow powder burn rates in many types of powders. Sounds like you are not getting a full burn on the powder before ejection. Try different ammos to see if you still see it. I bet a reloader with different powders will be able to recreate this.
Lets get jhonmysreloadingbench a vhs!
Good call!
@@jefflemaster2850 however, no reaction is perfect. If this was the case, you'd expect it to happen on the first round of a session (or after a break) because the system would be at its coldest. That doesn't seem to be happening here.
More likely it's a reaction with an accumulation of un-burned powder that builds up after successive shots
I was thinking the same thing, and was going to suggest doing it on a warm day, but leaving some mags in a cooler long enough to cold-soak the powder. Seems like a pretty easy way to test that angle.
@@NightRavenGSA01 that might explain a poor initial reaction, but it might be easier to find an indoor range with a thermostat. It would also MAYBE allow for control of humidity.
Man, I need to find me an engineering grad student, this would be a hell of a master's thesis...
Ian @ Forgotten weapons needs to see this. He loves the Hellion specifically because he's left handed and transitions both sides regardless of ejection side.
He's in Arizona, so if this is a cold-weather related problem then it's... Okay? I guess?
@@bodyno3158 Arizona gets cold, it depends on where/when. There's been snow on the ground in Forgotten Weapons episodes.
@NUKE ISRAEL I might start trying to teach myself wrong handed shooting. My right eye is going bad and it really ruins accuracy past 25 yards.
Cataracts are evil.
Doing rh-left-eye shooting is super awkward.
(Ps, fundamentals still apply though, I still shot sub MOA at the recent "Love for the streets" Q-event in Tennessee. But that was a HIGHLY controlled environment with thousand dollar glass on a 3 thousand dollar rifle... so that's not something I can readily replicate in a pinch with my oen gear. But who knows, if i get lense replacement surgery, my bionic eye might make my right eye dominance better than ever! 😉)
@@ravissary79 It’s a good skill to have, should you ever need it. Also, it’s a nice challenge to work on.
Here’s my guess - the VHS is chambered for 5.56 but you’re using Remington .223. Keep in mind the free bore in the chamber of a 5.56 rifle is 2x that of a .223 gun. So there is more air between the neck of the .223 round and the entry bore of a 5.56 whereas a 5.56 round would fit closer to the entry bore of a 5.56 rifle. Next, cold air is more dense than warm air so there’s more oxygen. I think it’s possible that the greater air gap between a .223 round and the entry bore in a 5.56 chamber may create a fireball in the free bore of the chamber if there is sufficient oxygen. This fireball is then insufficiently cleared down the barrel because you are using a suppressor. So the fireball “blows back” once the casing starts to get ejected. If this explanation is correct the problem should either not happen or be very rare if you stick to using 5.56 ammo in a gun chambered for 5.56. Try testing the VHS solely with 5.56 NATO ammo.
If you are suggesting the 5.56 cartridge is larger, the 223 and 5.56 cartridges actually have identical dimensions. The difference is the 5.56 NATO cartridge has approximately 1 more grain of powder, so the 5.56 chamber has a slightly larger and longer throat (or freebore + lead) to accommodate the higher pressure. So based on your theory, you might actually expect a larger fireball using 5.56.
I was under the impression that 5.56 and .223 are identical in external dimensions and the only difference is the brass thickness and water capacity internally.
Same with 7.62x51 and .308. .308 being able to hold more powder and is hotter than 7.62 nato.
Your theory sounds good but I’m not entirely sure that the external dimensions are any different.
@@clintlewis1715 Thanks for your input. A slightly longer 5.56 cartridge is meant to correctly fit the longer free bore of the 5.56 chamber and would explain the extra grain if powder you indicated. So a firearm chambered for .223 Remington should not be used with 5.56 NATO - I learned that from other CZcamsrs, notably “gavintoobe”.
At any rate, I do not think shooting 5.56 NATO ammo in the 5.56 NATO chambered VHS would worsen or even create the occasional blow-back that the .223 Remington may be causing in cold air when shot with a suppressor.
So here’s my hypothesis in greater detail. My thinking is that it is the “unoccupied” extra free bore due to the mismatched .223 ammo used in the VHS 5.56 chamber results in the blow-back flash, created from the extra large pocket of the fireball in the fee bore, adjacent the neck of the spent cartridge as it is being ejected.
The fireball that is created by the powder in the cartridge essentially fills all of the space between the cartridge and the bullet, until the bullet exits the muzzle. The suppressor then retards the exiting of the fireball which also retards the forward movement of the tail end of the fireball, and depending on how fast the powder burns, may result in a blow-back flash as the casing is ejected. Additional oxygen in cold air would also result in a more complete burn of the powder and a bigger fireball. It’s essentially a confluence of several factors, a sort of “perfect storm”.
@@mikerobinson8734 Apparently the 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington specs differ in free bore.
Watch the “223 -vs- 5.56: FACTS and MYTHS” video from gavintoobe. Gavin gives advice for DIY loaders and does a complete job of providing background and empirical data on this topic.
I would not use a 5.56 round in a gun chambered for .223 - even my coach told me that almost 50 years ago. I was just too young to listen to all the technical reasons.
@@GPOLICE yeah, and some slight inconsistency in quantity and quality of the powder may also be involved; whereby the extra mismatch in free bore along with cold air, cold gun, could all contribute to a “perfect storm”.
It would make for an interesting CZcams video if someone would do controlled tests. My advice is to always match ammo to firearm, especially only use .223 ammo with a .223 firearm. My coach also told me wet cartridges, a wet chamber, increases chamber pressures and can alter trajectory.
Over gassed: when the ambient air is cold (and therefore denser) it's putting more force, faster, onto the piston which is throwing off the timing just enough to get occasional chamber flashes due to the chamber unlocking prematurely. That's probably why you 1) didn't see it occur when the ambient temperature was warmer and 2) didn't see it occur when not shooting suppressed. Even if the flow-through suppressors put _less_ back pressure into the system than traditional baffle types - it's still more than bare muzzle or flash hider: and the *combination* of denser air plus back pressure was enough throw off the timing.
My first thought is that I think it's a 3-part 'perfect storm' combination of this temperature induced lower tolerance, reduced gas setting and reciprocating dwell time that is the issue. The lower temperature is causing a looser tolerance at the breach with the bolt lock allowing for an earlier unlock and the unburnt powder is blowing back through the chamber. The lower back pressure setting due to using the zero back pressure can is also increasing the dwell time of the bolt reciprocation allowing for the escaping blast. Once it heats up the problem goes away.
More dwell time is exactly what it needs. Its unlocking while pressures are still relatively high.
This is a niche of video that MAC dominates. Please keep doing videos like this.
It’s only niche because literally no one else on earth is as routinely careless, sloppy, and runs their weapons in a state that lacks any of pride of ownership. It’s niche because he’s the common denominator; he’s the problem, not the arms he “discovers” issues with.
The scar 20 user manual specifically says “do not suppress the rifle. Doing so will void warranty” it also states “shoot what’s printed on the barrel” which is 7.62 nato. Not 308.
More reason for me to hate the SCAR
@@moss8702 it’s simply CYA for FN. in layman’s terms, dodging the warranty for stupid people. Of course it can be suppressed, there’s even a suppressed setting on the gas system. The ammo recommendations are the same. They’re just as solid of a rifle as any other. Hate em all you want, they’re good guns.
If this video was about the Scar this information would be much more helpful.
@@nicholassorensen9035 good to know about their warranty. They fire and work decent. They also have some pretty inferior and serious design flaws. Overpriced for a pretty meh rifle
SAME for the SCAR 17(s). I called FN specifically about this..THEY CONFIRMED. EVERYBODY knows SCARS are fully-capable of BEING suppressed AND firing .308 Win. Stupid..makes ZERO sense as to why; I chalk it up to B-S politics! I’m not blaming my SCAR though!
My guess is the dimensions are shrunk enough when cold that the weapons is kinda firing ‘unlocked’ but as it heats up the dimensions increase sealing up any gaps. This could be exacerbated if the weapons was in just in tolerance or maybe just out of it when shipped off.
So….. skim cut the back of the bolt by 1/100 of a thousandths of an inch for clearance? How would you prove this condition? Also once the chamber and the bolt reach the same or close temperature would it cause the same problem? Meaning, when cold the chamber shrinks more than the bolt, when hot the bolt expands more than the chamber. This would mean there is a
Sweet spot while the barrel and the bolt are heating up through use where the expansion is such that complete lock up happens. Ok. Guess a material science guy could check the expansion coefficient for each alloy used in the bolt and chamber - then someone who had an FEA software could
Model the changing dimensions due to heating….. just a
Thoughts
With your history with firearms and luck, a slam fire pipe shotgun would somehow fail
The nail would break lol
Just a big thank you for taking the time
First I'm no expert by any means and I'm not in the ammo business. But I have reloaded for about 40+ years. Over those years I have learned, as most have, that different powders burn at different rates. I have also learned that some powders and primers are more reliable at cold temperatures. That said if the powder that the manufacturer is using is a slow burning power that is more sensitive to cold temperatures and/or the primers are as well. There is the possibility that there is unburned powder in the barrel. If the suppressor is sending hot gases back towards the ejection port. The hot gases could be acting as a source of ignition and igniting the unburned powder. Resulting in a secondary explosion. In turn the gases would then go to the least path of resistance which is the ejection port. I know you had 2 manufacturers of ammo in the video. But I would try a wide array of ammo to see if the problem still persists. I hope this helps in finding a solution to the problem.
I was thinking more about your issue with the Hellion rifle. Since tolerances and accumulated tolerance stack-ups between parts in manufacturing can mean the difference between success and failure. You may also want to check the headspace, chamber dimensions, and ammo case dimensions along with overall length of a loaded cartridge. All of these can be easily checked with go/ no-go gauges. I would also put in a stronger recoil spring in the rifle for a longer lock up time. I know you have a lab radar chronograph so check the velocity, expreme speed and standard deviation to see if you see any abnormalities. All of things as well as the powder/primers I mentioned earlier could all contribute to the problem. Just a thought.
I swear you are the unluckiest gun owner in the world. Still love the videos keep it up.
When you did this test, was the ammo also freezing cold? Or was it kept inside a warm environment? I'd be tempted to try a cold vs warm ammo test, to see if that makes a difference.
Strange thing, I went out Sunday and it was in the high 60's and it happened twice. Warm ammo, gun and air. I'm at a loss. I do believe it's likely unlocking a bit too fast but again, we'r e not seeing any signs of bulged cases or other indicators something like this may be happening.
@@Militaryarmschannel im wondering if the recoil spring has some grease build up/carbon that is slowing the recoil spring to compress and return? Have you cleaned out the gun from the factory grease/carbon build up? Well it might still be the temperature+OSS combined still.
@@Militaryarmschannel Dumb question, is the gas port set to suppressed? I thought there was a low gas setting on these.
@@kevinfitzpatrick5949 He says in the video it's on a suppressed setting.
@@Militaryarmschannel twice out of how many rounds, and how does that compare to the frequency from when you shot on colder days?
I had this exact thing while using K&M17 s. Unsuppressed. Using federal 556. I have vid of 10 rds where 3 or 4 do this.. was in the 50s in virginia..
Lol, I was wondering when "something" was gonna happen.
There’s two factors that negatively affect pressure differential that allows some of the combustion process to bleed out the side.
1.) The suppressor slows down the velocity of the projectile which would affect the pressure differential across the shockwave that a projectile creates.
2.) secondly, lower temperature means denser air and higher pressures.
Therefore, The combustion is bleeding out because you are losing pressure both from the lack of pressure differential from the shockwave of the projectile and a higher density air.
Posting this from a guy with a degree in aerodynamic engineering.
Colder air is more dense, so higher resistance can cause more back pressure and on top of that, and higher air density means more oxygen to feed the fire. Just an opinion.
Maybe. But the Projectile experiences about 800 lb of average force while in barrel. Increased inertia of colder ambient air seems too small to matter. Plus the air in the barrel would get warm after first shots.
So it has to be something that doesn’t warm up with shooting, where the gun unlocks too soon?
Cold air is denser and can trap more gas. Is the gas system relatively sealed? After about 3 shots, there could be residual gas building up, mixing with the cold air. Essentially have a carburetor. Just my guess.
Some piston guns have problems with powder buildup especially when it cold the cold keeps the unburned powder from burning so I can build until it makes a Thurmo baric type explosion to cold is also most likely making the metal contact so the piston may be smaller than normal wish dose not help I lot of gas Piston operated rifles have increased muzzle flash every couple of rounds has Pisten operated guns have powder build up especially when it's cold
the problem is a design flaw. see if you look at it, it's simple. If you apply a little bit of critical thinking to form a valid hypothesis you will soon realize that this gun is backwards. the magazine is supposed to be on the other side of the trigger group. I hope this helps.
I really appreciate you clearing that up.
In army i was issued witt vhs 2 (military version) we fired it in the same day in mouthins and on coast (really big temparature diferences). There was only one mission and that was torture that assaul rifle...I do not know abaut civilian version but military one did not have this problem..and yes we put on them home made supressors like really bad one... thing that we did not do is change of ammo..
Hope that helps.
The combustion product of modern smokeless powder is a high volume of high temperature, highly deoxygenated gas. Prior to the bullet's exit from the muzzle, this gas is at high pressure. Once the bullet exits the muzzle, combustion chamber pressure immediately vents to atmospheric. At that point, some of this gas will expand and re-oxidize, and this is what causes muzzle flash when it occurs.
The flash you are seeing is the result of venting of some of this combustion product gas at the breech end. It could be gas emitting from the breech as a result of case extraction or tapped gas in the operating system venting because of higher post-bullet-exit combustion chamber pressure because the suppressor is tempering the venting pressure drop.
I wouldn't call this an "explosion,",since the pressure wave of this re-oxidization not is small. "Flash" is probably a better term.
Is the phenomenon sensitive to outside air temperature? In theory, colder air is denser than warmer air and might have a higher oxygen content. However the delta's in OAT discussed are small.
I think Chase had it right on the IG comments; that's my guess anyway....
AMERICA STRONG
STAY FREE
LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC
I think what happens is some sort of fire piston effect. It only works in cold air since the air is thicker with high enough level of oxygen. So the chamber becomes an air piston.
I have been thinking more about your issue with the Hellion rifle. In addition to my comments earlier regarding un-burnt powder in the barrel being ignited from the hot gases from the suppressor I would like to submit the following. You may want to install a stronger recoil spring to allow for a longer lock up time. Since tolerances and acculmative tolerance stack-ups between parts in manufacturing can mean the difference between success and failure. I would check the head space and chamber dimensions as well as the ammo dimensions and overall dimensions of the ammo. All of these can be checked with go, no-go gages and calipers. Since I know you have a lab radar chronograph I would check the velocity, extreme deviation and standard deviation paying particular attention to the rounds that you experience the secondary explosion at the ejection port. Write down all the data for each round. On the ammo dimensions and the lab radar I would check at least 10 rounds to have a fairly good test sample. But 20 rounds would be better. The more data the better the results. I would fire 1 round note the velocity, then number the case. This will allow you to correlate between the case, velocity and damage or leaks of gases to the case. You will need to sort the velocities from min to max velocities prior to graphing the data. This can easily be done by using the sorting filter in Excel. I would then graph the data to create a bell curve. This can be done in Excel or even graph paper and a french curve connecting the data points along with a pencil from left to right. This will show you visually the min and max as well as the mean. The majority or 85% of the data points will fall into the main part of the bell curve. The remaining data points will be at the left (lower velocities) and right (higher velocities) of the bell curve. The left and right data are the abnormalities or worst case scenarios. Which is what you are looking for in all of the above. If you want you can also pull the bullets with a bullet puller and weigh the powder charges with a quality reloading powder scale. Then create a bell curve for the powder charges as described above. You will see a correlation between the velocities and powder charge. I would also check the fired cases. If you are seeing carbon down the length of the fired cases this could be a low powder charge resulting in the case not being expanded enough to seal against the chamber walls allowing gases to go around the case. Check for spilt cases or out of tolerance chamber dimensions. I would really investigate this thoroughly as it could result in severe damage to you, your magazine or your rifle. Good luck in your quest to find the cause. I enjoy your videos. Keep up the good work.
I'm glad your okay and didn't have a Kentucky ballistics injury 🙏🙏 be safe brother and thank you for you dedication to bringing us facts 💯
did SURBU get sued for almost causing a death with their .50 caliber single shot rifle ?
@@unitedstatesirie7431 it was the round not the gun
@@unitedstatesirie7431 Scott proved it was the rounds. He has the video on his channel where he took the remaining rounds and fired them remotely. The 10th round of the batch blew the new rife apart.
Glad you’re ok!
@@MThrow he didn't even manage to recreate the same explosion with the rest of the same slap ammo bach , when he got the new Serbu . He had to spice up one round to make it explode , and that one was a regular 50 , if I recall .
So imagine how much spiced up that one round was , maybe someone done that on purpose.
Since is only happening with low back pressure cans and in cold weather, I'm wondering if it's igniting built up unburnt powder. The flow through suppressors aren't blowing out that build up like a baffle suppressor. Just a theory.
Both ammos use ball powder. Needs a hotter primer or warmer temps.
I don't think it's unlocking too early. What I think is happening is that due to the low temperatures, there are still unburnt powder/gasses that are vented into the forend/topcover. It isn't an explosion, really, but it is annoying and may actually singe someone if it hits their face. It may even be dangerous if they are not using eye protection, as I have seen you do throughout this entire video. The easy solution is to fit some kind of divider just aft of the area that the piston hits the action rod in the forend. The more complicated solution is to redesign the topcover so that there is a divider that traps the gasses after the piston moves rearward.
This guy has saved me quite a bit of cash, I was looking at a concealed carry pistol then saw his video that the trigger broke on him for no reason. Keep up the great work!!!
@Hidden 38 What pistol was that? Was it a Sig?
If he's paid right he'll back anybody he's backed big daddy unlimited, he said he would never buy another Springfield after the Illinois deal and here he is with one sometimes these CZcamsrs are typically a walking billboard trying to make a sale to fuel their pockets
@@matortiz2322 this is not a product of Springfield, they're the importer for HS products and hence the hellion A.K.A VHS2
What pistol was it?
Beretta Tomcat
Try hot ammo VS cold ammo, see if it does the same thing... keep a loaded mag on the inside of your jacket or something and compare it with ambient temp ammo. My guess is it has something to do with the slower burn of the powder due to temperature combined with can backpressure spitting it out the ejection port when the bolt unlocks, whereas without the can it would go out the muzzle.
Heat expands metal and gasses. It’s a metal issue caused by slight over pressure. It’s a rotating bolt and as the barrel gets hotter faster than the locking lugs the bolt is allowing gas leakage around the locking lucks. As the bolt face warms up and the locking lugs do also the fit and gas seal will be enhanced. Why does it happen only on certain shots? Maybe the ammo has a couple of rounds that produce a slight pressure increase. Though very small it’s causing the issue on a cold bolt. We’re talking just a few grains extra. The test would be to run through 100-150 rounds on a morning where the temps are in the 30’s and not rising. See if the issue stops after the bolt face and lugs warm up. Obviously the cans are increasing the pressure so that’s why it’s more likely to happen with them on. I had a M16A1 f FG o this on a couple of cold mornings in Germany. Bolt looked like it was from Nam. New bolt no more problems. I’m not saying these bolts need to be switched. It’s a metal issue. Also keeping the buttstock collapsed may increase resistance to rearward travel on the bolt to help the issue.
So slight over pressure on a cold bolt face probably the culprit.
Unburnt gunpowder and back pressure. Temperature reduces combustion efficiency.
Weird when a VHS explodes there's usually more black ribbons everywhere
Thanks for this. I'll wait for the Gen 2 version later this year or next year.
Probably unburned powder possible from cold weather and suppressor flow through which means air flow both ways causing Unburned powder accumulated near the chamber and then got burned up during firing cycle.
This would be my guess. In a few weeks wel.find.out with a follow up video most likely
Tims Bermuda triangle gun range, "if it works, then it wasn't tested here, come on down to Tims gun range!"
It would be interesting to see if any of the powders loaded in the ammo that you're using are flash suppressed. You have to remember that you are basically running a system of powder/ primer/ projectile /gas system /firearm. Low temperatures can affect primers and powder ignition.
I’ve seen this happen on a suppressed SCAR. Chambered in 556 and also on the .308/7.62 version
*If I ever build a gun, I'm sending it to MAC first. He breaks things real good.*
Hey this is Dusty I just wanted to let you know that it's due to the temperature the metal contracts when it's cold it has something to do with the gas system
My suspicion is that it's the ammo you are shooting, in conjunction with the cold AND the suppressor. Norma used to be super-premium ammo, but their recent offerings are alarmingly cheap, to the point where you know they had to have cut quality. So, neither ammo type you are shooting is high end, nor are they military grade 5.56 powders and primers which are designed to perform well at wider temperature ranges. I suspect what is happening is you are getting slow powder burning, resulting in an incomplete burn and unburnt powder getting dumped into the action; the back pressure from the suppressor causes it to come out the rear with the cartridge instead of blowing out the front. Every few rounds you get a spark that ignites this unburnt powder, resulting in it flashing off. Try it with quality 5.56 and see if you get the same results.
Things are about to get "ROUGH" for the Hellion in this market👀
Did anyone else notice Tim is not wearing safty glasses in the explosion photo? Lucky his eyeballs aren't fried.
Springfield like “We just managed to repair the XD- now this?!”
My guess would be it's in battery but incomplete lockup due to back pressure and cold lube/uneven thermal dimensional stability of materials, causing the bolt to close slowly. This would cause the bolt to unlock too early.
Wow! Something I might never see in Florida. My Tavor has issues running a YHM can with 5.56 pressure ammo. I remediated most of that with a +25% recoil spring from Shooting Sight. I think that I might be nervous shooting that gun before I knew what is causing those fireballs.
from what I know of reloading: cold weather makes powder run extra hot, with a suppressor. I think I did something like this before by spraying cleaning/lube spray before shooting and cause a large pressure spike, probably also the case extracting early.
It looks like the chamber is opening before the bullet leaves the barrel causing a siphoning of air into the chamber. If the air is cold and dense, the oxygen will explode hence the fireable, when it’s not cold enough and there’s not enough oxygen present there is no fireball
If the chamber opened before the bullet left the barrel, the fired cases would be distorted and hot gas would blow all the air out of the way, not draw it in to the barrel.
@@rickoshea8138 I wasn’t as descriptive as I should’ve been. You are correct. What u described would be the first explosion, which would create a backdraft effect and thus a vacuum near the ejection port, before the bullet even left the muzzle. The bullet would then be traveling the remainder of the bore length by the energy of its own momentum. Once the bullet left the muzzle a secondary vacuum would be created siphoning more oxygen into the first vacuum which is super heated causing the oxygen to explode. A chronograph can be used to prove this if lower than normal muzzle velocities are achieved when a suppressor is attached
Cold air is more dense, suppressor provides back pressure. Maybe the bolt unlocks a little early and it's just enough some unburnt powder ignites as it exits backwards through the hot chamber?
Singapore’s SAR21 bullpup has a Kevlar plate protecting the shooter’s face in case there’s a chamber explosion.
cz bren does this too. Theres a vid on here where you can see the explosion come out the EP and go throughout the translucent mag. Looks dope in slo mo.
your brass casings are cold or hot Thermal expansion will change the amount of contact the casing has in the breach allowing gases to leave if the casing is cold
Seems like it's unlocking just a smidge too soon, the bullet is gone but there is still residual pressure and burning powder in the barrel. You probably wouldn't even notice if the powder was done burning and it was a puff of smoke, not fire.
I‘d stop using that ammo in a cold environment.
Undersized tollerences on the bolt engagement? It could also be minimal contact with the locking lugs..Heat causes the contact surfaces to swell, which allows correct ejection patterns.
Try putting it in the freezer and letting off 5 rounds while it's still cold.
I'm going with slower or delayed ignition of the powder due to cold weather, and early bolt release due to higher backpressure from the suppressor.
It's probably just unburnt powder igniting during extraction. Brings a new meaning to port pop
Maybe colder temperatures decrease the burn rate so once some gas hits the gas port and the piston opens the action, powder is still burning and it comes out of the action?
OSS can call it flow through, but I feel like it has little impact on back pressure. Sure the gasses may escape from a different end, but it’s still baffling pressure. If it allowed everything to breathe, it wouldn’t suppress anything.
Tim, I've no money to spare but I do appreciate your content! On a fixed income, between the price & availability of ammo never going back to pre-'Rona levels, and insane price of gas going toward Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot territory, it's all I can do with my fiancee to get ready for "SHTF". If I ever travel back to Indiana, I'll drop by the shop & say hi!
I hope to see ya at the shop! Travel safe.
Thanks for the update brother.
I suppose that the simplest explanation would be that the chamber is ever so slightly oversized where the case is supported which randomly causes the escaping gas that you see in conjunction with cold temperature and the odd case that doesn’t expand or is slightly undersized.
That’s a small thermobaric explosion, the atomized propellant throughout the gas mixed with good dense cold air and boom, like spraying propellant into a potato gun, with the right fuel air mixture it has a quite powerful explosion
With the temperature is colder the powder is slower burning which is well known. But that being said the gun is probably right on the line of opening to soon and when the temp drops slowing that powder burn is enough to cause explosion.
So basically what's happening is the bolt opening before the pressure goes down and with a 16 inch barrel not all of the powder gets to detonate. It is a very strange occurance because a lot of factors contribute to it. I've seen that happening before with some suppressed pistols and other semi auto 5.56 rifles that have very slick actions. Nothing to be worried about in terms of reliability but it can definitely catch you off guard if you're not familiar with it or don't understand what is actually happening. Seen it on a Glock 29, a few commander sized 1911's, a Scar L and a CZ Bren 2.
On yesterdays Tfb tv’s mossberg 940 tactical video that same explosion was happening with shotgun ammo . That video was shot in south Louisiana where is was not cold
It’s pretty common to see ejection port explosions/fireballs with semi-auto shotguns for some reason
I don't think temperature is the governing variable, but the humidity or lack thereof. When those little explosions happen, it's not just buring the powder but also the oxygen in the surrounding atmosphere. That surrounding oxygen will ignite easier in dryer conditions. So you're probably still getting overpressure issues in warming weather, but the dry air is bringing it to light.
Tim broke something again?
Well the hellion lives up to the name now
Tim , I have two suggestions: Firstly check the chamber dimensions (especially the diameter) and secondly check the bolt head for headspace in fully locked position .
I think that as a control you need to do the same test with some other short stroke piston (say CZ Bren 2) and even a DI gun to see whether other rifles do this. Maybe you simply never noticed it.
Ive seen a CZ bren 2 7.62x39 do this with while shooting fiocchi ammo.
The Bren 2 has a gas relief/bypass hole in the center of the adjustable gas valve. This appears to be for over pressure which would in theory divert excessive gas between the gas chamber and piston head.
I’ve yet to hear of any Bren 2 related fireballs at the extraction port.
@@ChiefMiddleFinger sage dynamics has a video shooting one and you can see flames going into the magazine, I can't remember if it was a suppressor review video or a review of the gun though, I do belive it was suppressed
@@williambell7763 it was a review of the gun but those clear mags filling with fire is definitely a sight worth seeing.
Any chance it is .223 spec ammo in a 5.56mm chamber? Maybe not getting complete case expansion before the increase in back pressure? I always thought the case expanded immediately before the bullet was out of the case mouth. Also did MAC not have a problem with another gun of excessive muzzle flash from a build-up of unburned powder and powder residue re-igniting? Maybe get some handloads with a cleaner burn powder or different burn rates.
My VHS with a Griffin Optimus 9 shooting Federal M855 in sub-40F weather has not experienced fireballs coming out of the ejection port.
I had this happen on an 11" Bren 2 556 with 762 OSS TI can on regular gas setting. Occurred for 2 rounds out of 90 total, about halfway thru range session. ZSR 55 grain FMJ. Indoor range.
Being left-handed that flash looks rather dangerous.
You can set the rifle up for 100% left hand use.
Seems like back pressure is sending unburned powder back that eventually lights off. Cold Temps keep the brass case from seating fast enough to stop it. Once the temp is up and the ammo is warm then it seats faster. A test would be possible if you keep the ammo warmer and shoot it on cold day.
If its only happening with suppressor then it's possible.
I wonder if you would see a difference in chronograph results from the exploding ammo.
Maybe in colder temps relative humidity is lower allowing higher flammability of unspent gasses re ignited by residual flames in suppressor. Higher humidity will lower flash point.
I'm commenting before watching the rest of the video, I think the fireballs might have to do with either the bolt not closing property or due to the back pressure of the can maybe it's unlocking before the powder has a chance to fully combust
It's the ammo!
Put the gun in a refrigerator or freezer with warmer air temps. It could be a tolerance issue in the gas system? But getting the gun cold alone would help determine if it is a gun temp issue or air temp issue. Granted the gun heating up after firing multiple rounds should negate that, but it is an easy test to do.
Probably what is happening:
Back pressure gas is igniting and the cold makes the air and gas more dense causing more concentration and more of an ignition. Could be chamber design or the bolt releasing a little early. Compare the chamber and bolt to other rifles.
With colder temps you’ve got more dense air. With a psycrometer you’ll be able to get dry bulb and wet bulb temps and a lot of other information about the air. My guess is you’ve got just enough oxygen missed with superheated gasses and causing an ignition. I’ve read through some comments and shrinkage of the components under these temps could also be a factor. But those movements are probably in the .0001” and all these different components will have different rates of expansion. “Former machinist and current HVAC tech”
Cold/damp ammo slowing powder ignition. It's rare but sometimes the powder is still burning when the round is ejected.
Thanks for the heads up. I want one but I’m a left and I only run things suppresses when possible.
This rifle is very ambidextrous and you can run it on the left too since Ian from Forgotten Weapons is a lefty and he did show and how to swap it to the left side easily (I think MAC also might have shown it before too? I could be wrong)
@@BlurSquidArt he did. It is completely ambidextrous.
You mentioned that it happened primarily in cold weather. Powder doesn't burn at the same rate in cold weather according to Chris at Small Arms Solutions in his video on buffer weights and used an SPR clone of his short stroking in cold weather until he went to a lighter buffer. It could have something to do with the powder burning slower. The short stroke gas piston it's based on might not be as tolerant to unburned powder building up or a simple gas flowing rate difference in cold weather. You might give Chris over there a try and see if he can figure it out.
I got rid of an major over gassed PSA-10 gen 1 that did this. Major fire out if the port. The extractor ripped the crap out of the brass too. Unfired rounds (LakeCity) would need mortared out by the hulk. Total piece of crap.
Great video! Thanks MAC!
Had that happen all the time when using high power loads in my Saiga 12. The manual said that 2 3/4" loads should be fired on the #2 setting, and 3" loads should use the #1 setting. The hammering from the breach flashes mushroomed the rear tang, and also the cam lug and path on the carrier. Later found the weapon wouldn't cycle 3" on the #1 setting. Opened up the gas plug on the #1 setting until 3" and heavy 2 3/4" loads cycled properly. No more breach flashing after that, and the recoil became much more manageable.
The Hellion has way too much gas. Check your locking lugs for cracks or damage! M4's like to eat lugs due to the amount of gas required in the carbine length systems. That's why the XM177 had to have the expansion chambers in the flash hider. They used a rifle sized gas port and needed the chambers to produce enough backpressure to cycle the system.
Suppressors is blowing extra gas and carbon back into the chamber. Powder doesnt burn 100% clean soo its still active. After a round is fired their's a very quick but delayed explosion due to the hot air plus the carbon buildup igniting mixed with a little pocket of cold air rapidly heating up. Soo basically there are 3 mini explosions going off in that chamber. The reasons why it doesn't happen with other platforms is because they have better airflow ( like the tiny gap between the upper and lower on an AR platform)
But im also not a professional. I'm just making a more educated guess than "its an ammo problem" unlike most people. I'd like to find out the actual problem and if I'm right that would be cool I guess. P.S love the channel (obiously) thanks for turning me into a Keyboard scientist today!