Just re-fitted a shower I installed 4 years ago with a distinct lack of knowledge. Educated by Roger, re-installed this month. No chance of water damage this time. Thanks Roger.
I've pulled out 2 shower enclosure's recently for exactly the reasons Roger has specified , one had only been in 5 years , is a wicked waste of money and resources . Is unfortunate truth that the building industry is full of have a go heroes that don't read / can't read or are in some kind of mad rush to get in and out without concern for future consequences. This weeks job it was all the roof guttering going into the sewage soil pipe and then we wonder why the water companies release sewage in to our rivers. Keep making the videos Roger they are very informative, is a shame that muppetry have driven you to distraction and indignation, why not look out 'for textbook expertise' and building genius in the hope of raising the standards that way. I've got a suggestion for all builders, listen to Roger and people like him, read books, go on a training course, look at what people achieved in the past without electricity, see castles , Cathedrals with sacred geometry, put some love and pride back in to the job.
Do enjoy these rants.👍👍 What don't manufacturers make a shower tray with a 50mm upstand at the back/ corners as required where tiles can go straight onto it, problem solved. Trays been around for many years, so has the problem, so why haven't the tray designers dealt with the issue at source?. Outside I always have a 3" gravel line around the house so water cannot get a chance to bukld up and go under any steps.
you can get trays with upstands yes, but ive seen so many that have had plasterboard board down to the lip, so there is a gap between board and lip top, without being sealed, and then tiled over...the grout cracks/tile lifts where plasterboard meets plastic lip and its another waterfall of seeping misery for the homeowner
They have been out for 30 years. Problen is they need to be sunk into the walls unless you spay the tiles and have the headache of a fitting the door. Like most things in the game it all falls down to communication, in other words fk it its not my job! And that is true and the plumber is always to blame
Love your rants, justified and educational. One thing you didn’t mention about the patio being flush with the inside floor is…always slope the F*king patio away from the house! Believe it or not, I bought a house with a newly block paved driveway that was sloped for water runoff…but in the wrong direction. AND it overstood the damp course. I literally found water fleas in the sodden shite that was the juncton with the house wall. I was speechless at the stupidity. I recently fitted a shower tray following your guidance, great job with this channel Roger!
I'm about to design and build a new bathroom with shower in my detached garage/studio, doing a lot DIY, so THANK YOU! I'm an HVAC contractor so have a head start on a lot of things but it's details like this that I look for. Much love from across the pond in America. Be safe out there boss.
I loved the 'left to their own devices' comment, for that read do as cheaply and quickly as they think they can get away with. This especially goes for people on sites working to prices.
There are a lot of good guys working on sites but they are on a price so the caraftmanship drops to near zero. Even the ones with a conscience think fk it and that is true
Problem is that some tradespeople will just say "I've been doing this for and it works fine". Some people don't adapt or learn or show interest in product developments or solutions over the years and they just keep doing the same thing over and over.
Spot on. Two separate friends of mine have recently had new consumer units installed in fairly large properties. Neither electrician bothered to explain or offer rcbo boards - just banged in the same old cheap crap split boards.
Rinse and repeat. Absolutely, and in my line I have to find these issues, or gifts as I call them, and they seem surprised when called out and need to alter their practices to avoid repeats.
Totally agree, Roger, patio door manufacturers usually have a corresponding cill unit for all types of installation to prevent ingress of water . Vertical pipes piercing over site d.p.c. membranes is another problem area.
Hi Roger, I'm currently fitting a shower tray at the moment and despite your advice on using a tape seal at the bottom, it still has only a 10mm contact point were it meets the shower tray from the wall and IMO is not a 100% guarantee to work ,as you are still reliant on the adhesive on the tape not to fail. I'll be using a rubberised adhesive on the bottom 25mm of the tile when setting in.
As a landscaper this does my nut, people think this is the south of France because they see this on the magazines or the TV shows and demand this one level from outside to inside... Worst thing to do in the UK where it rains for like 10 months of the year!
What a great rant Roger!!! I think the greater reason is that it is because builders are not formally trained in the UK, in Germany they do three years and have a much higher status as a result. I bet UK building is a lot cheaper though! Would be great to see another video on this in future with a real life example of each.
I did 5 years in the UK and know the regs inside out better than most trainers. We are not all cowboys. Unfortunately now you can buy a qual and learn at the customers expense
Hi Roger. Was called to some flats where the water was travelling about 20 ft from aqua drain on 1st floor walk way onto ceilings down below. Architech sugested using tech 7 to seal crack between concrete and aqua drain. I did not touch that job.
Never used the tape before, looks good idea but I always silicone tray to the wall then silicone seal around top of tray, tank then it’s tiled and then final silicone seal with squeezing deep into gape between trap and tiles to make sure it’s full, never had a problem or leak in ten plus years
Never buy a shower tray that does not have an upstand that fits behind the tiles/paneling. Silicon is only ever temporary. Both of my showers are completely silicon free.
Have only been in the trades 8 years but always tried to apply 2 layers of waterproofing on all systems. If the silicone/flashing/beading fails you need a backup. Nice to see quality being promoted, it doesn't take much at the right time, and can save loads in future repairs.
Yanks will tell you that you never want to waterproofing systems not right against each other because you can create a sandwich of moisture that just sits there as both a health hazard and a degradation mechanism for the materials. 1 waterproofing membrane done correctly is all you need.👍
Always silicon the tray into position then use a shower kit with the seal that goes on wall, shower tray and corners then seal the walls. Only adds about £50 to the job and you know you are never going to have a issue same when I fit baths.
As a window installer and surveyor for properties, i always install DPC under big elements that are set on lower level of flooring. If the customer dosent comply with my request I ask him to give me a signature on a piece of paper with a text that covers me for legal covers on future. Also, i like to instal the DPC with 2 big lines of silicone and make sure that is correctly sealed under 'cause i dont want any moisture to raise under the DPC and brick work. After 12 years on doing it I only had 2 customers which had problems and we had to rectify the work. (Yeah, sometimes we fail but we have the chance to learn and improve). Nice topic and definitely one of the strongest things to admit your failure.
Thank you very much for this video Roger :) . Can you please do a follow up to this one, showing how to correct the problem after it has been installed (incorrectly) for some years. I am referring to a shower, which i think might be trickling water under the floor boards - I can smell a damp odour in the hall, the other side of the shower unit. :( . I imagine that the whole lot will have to be removed and to be re-installed properly.
Classi Plus if you're going down that route. (The basic Classi-Seal is just an EPDM strip which forms an upstand adhering to the shower tray. Classi-Plus is stuck to the wall too). No More Leaks looks a slightly better solution, to me, as it aims to redirect water away from the wall and back into the shower.
By the time the waters showing under the patio door Roger, the builders on his 4th pint of Guinness. Are tilers to blame also? How many times have you seen grout used where a tile meets a worktop or shower tray? Cracking job
been using classi seal on any bathroom jobs ive done for years now maybe 10 year. recently i needed to buy one and went to toolstation... didnt know what i was on about. went to tile giant and they also didnt know... some lads in there said ohh theyre a waste of time and expensive... just use silicone... went to city plumbing and got one there.
The wall boards being used in the shower area, be that Wedi, Hardie or whatever, should all sit on top of the tray and not down the back of the tray. Water tracking down a board that has been installed down the back of the tray is the number one failure point, regardless of what has been used to seal it.
Silicone needs to bee seen as a liquid gasket. Applied between two faces, not over the top of two faces. 1 material is bedded onto the other, with silicone in between. Yet most times silicone is used as a tolerance disguise. It covers up, rather than seals.
I used a synthetic lead flashing under my patio doors in my garden room. Did i do the right thing? It’s actually 50mm off the ground and the i have the 85mm threshhold. I do find i get water in the track when it blows against the door, but i think thats what the weep vents are for? Its on a 160mmish sill
What do you think of upstand shower trays. Yes harder to fit if you have three walls to get the third wall in the right place, but once done it lasts. For the self adhesive tape vacuum and clean (meths?) before fitting, but presumably the adhesive dries out one day? (Or is it cleverer?). Great video, keep 'em coming.
My pet hate I see repeatedly is silicone separation on bath edges or work tops. I don't think any seal can tolerate much movement. But baths often have small feet that if placed on the floor between joists will move between the bath being full and empty and when someone gets in. As water gets in this movement gets worse as the floor rots or softens, resealing doesn't work. The solution in the bath case is a heavy wood section, 3x3" or metal box section across the joists and lift the feet to fit.
That is the strangest way to install those I’ve ever seen. In MA , USA we only use copper shower pans, 6 in copper sides. Durarock over the copper side and waterproofed, then tile . Impossible to leak. Sliders and doors get a weatherproof flex tape on the floor and down the front , then a molded plastic pan or a lead pan with raised sides and interior. Silicone the sides and rear only , so if any water gets in it can’t penetrate the pan and rolls out the front . Making it impossible to leak into the house
In terms of doors. I would say industry in itself is at fault. Companies don't want to pay any decent money for skilled workforce, so they get labourer tier workers for low pay, push them to unreasonable deadlines to maximise profits. And there you go all the problems come up in next couple years if not sooner and customers have to pay again to get it fixed. On the other hand, A lot of customers expect to hire self employed people for basicly not even minimum wage day rates and expect to have a good job done, where no tradesmen fall into the category so then again unskilled and DIY handymen beat the qoutes, do them in and guess what happens next....
I've been to so many leaking shower trays in my time that I now tank every shower tray installation that I do. Adds a couple of hours and £100 on the job but I can walk away knowing that it's not going to leak..
Installed a shower tray 5 years ago. Used rubber tape with adhesive. One side for the tray and the top edge for the wall. This tape was especially designed for the purpose.The tiles were placed on the tray edge and water ingress was prevented. This method has stood the test of time. The wall itself should be made decent. The joists were reinforced with extra wood and proper bolts to take the weight.
What do you do if your builder has built an extension on the boundary lines (therefore, no space for the guttering to fit) even though the plans were to build one brick in before the boundary lines
4:49 Problem also is the insurance companies. Many years ago now, probably late 90s we had a crack in house I grew up in, in London (move out of London years ago, wouldn't want to live there now). Anyway. Long story short it was subsidence. Insurance paid out for repairs and sent "decorators" round. The most incompetent, cheap ones they could find. Found this out after listening to parents and brother in law. He was a professional decorator and did it by the book. The cowboys the insurance company sent damaged a unit in the front room and were supposed to, as part of the claim, do the whole front bedroom. Brother in law went round inspecting after and we put in a complaint later. Only details I can remember to this day (other than the damaged unit in living room) was the bedroom door. Brother in law ran hand down it. Smooth middle and top, rough down the bottom. He said all the guy has done is sand the top and middle to make himself look busy, then never bothered to do the rest of the door so he didn't have to bend down.
Would be best to use a shower tray with integral up stands that would be tiled over. A large house builder started to use these and all complaints about leaking shower trays stopped.
Does anyone have any thoughts on a patio that is bang on level with dpc? Infact I levelling across from the patio to the internal floor and the patio is higher than the internal floor by 15mm take away laminate floor and underlay and looking at 25mm
All shower trays and shower baths should be installed to BS not sure of number but it states that a water proof membrane should be appiled prior to tiling
Many dont have the brain power or the training, after all anybody can call themselves a builder. Nobody ever asks to see any certificates of competancy or qualifications they just take them by their word and hand over thousands !. Had my own fencing business with skilled workmen with nvq's and city and guilds. When the local large carpet factory closed about half a dozen guys went thier own way with L200 pickup a spade and called themselves landscape gardeners and fencers. No training as they were carpet workers last week. We lost several jobs to these people, and the really annoying thing was they were often alot more expensive than us and did some atrocious work too !
Good rant, Roger. Keep it up! Other countries, like much of the US, manage to have a 'code' for building (and electric, gas, water) standards. In the UK, it's too easy to get away with shoddy work. Trade bodies, central government and local authorities all have a part to play, but they don't. Nobody wants to pay for enforced standards, while cowboys can thrive. Everybody points fingers at the other guy. Meanwhile, Grenfell Tower stands as a shameful, charred memorial to their collective failure.
Trade bodies in general don't represent anyone on the ground. Too busy lobbying and running around with their big badges on. Yes once in a while they may get something useful but in general tey are big boys clubs for a night away from the wife. The morning i woke up to grendfell i said to the wife that is the Kingspan or whatever insulation they used. Being a plumber i knew that stuff burns like fk when hit with a blowlamp. Why did the clowns in charge not know that.............they did!
I worked for many years for a diy "shed" fixing bathrooms, particularly leaking showers and baths. The most common error I found was people/plumbers/builders/weekend DIY warriors sealed the shower screen/door and tray at the same time, leaving a tiny area of tray not sealed to the tiles where the door frame is installed. The other big issue was baths fitted without a batten on the walls, just relying on a sealant and the bath legs. Hey ho...
Anyone with a half brain knows you seal the tray and wipe off the seal to 5mm on the edges then fit the screen next day but i the real world even when they know what shoud be done it is not always possible especially working for a company. All down to money and costs, You work for a company and are sent to replace a tray and screen, you come in next morning and say i just have the screen to fit you are sacked. Thats the way it is.
Firstly, if there’s a sill with a drip edge, water would struggle to get under the frame in any decent amount, the outside level should always be lower in my opinion. Secondly, I glue the trays to the walls with silicone, then silicone the top joint, tile then silicone again, the only issues I’ve ever had is with cheap piece of sh*t trays that flex (which I refuse to fit these days), I’ve fitted hundreds of them this way, it works well.
i'm pretty sure that's not actually to spec or best practice? On the patio door comment ? That's your personal option (not to say it's not a good way of fitting)... however - Shower tray - is best practice from what I understand. Be interested to hear what is best practice from the UPVC/door suppliers ?
If you make sure you use a good amount of a decent bathroom silicone at the side edges of the shower tray as the tray is being installed , you’ll never have a leak .
Yes you will, I have been out to lots of them where the silicone parts company with the tray and the water is sucked through a crack you can barely see. It is the reason we continue to have these problems.
This guy makes me smile. For all the wrong reasons. He may have helped with a shower tray but when it comes to the DPC specs on patio doors, he seems to think that the walls are 100mm single skins and he don't seem to have heard of the regulation 150mm upstand..I have spent my whole life in the building trade. I installed miles of DPC and Radon Barriers, Oh your dramatic and entertaining my friend but you need to visit your City and Guilds rule book or take a run through Parker and Morris standards. If you just google on how to clear DPC trays and how to install DPC aprons you will get the idea..There is a world of difference between Shower trays and DPC aprons. I mean let's face it, The reason we specify 150mm DPC upstands is simply to protect against Snow falls and torrential rain fall.
George Thanks for your interesting comment but customers these days are hell bent on the level access threshold. If you tell them they have to step down 150mm from their pation door they get someone else to fit them. There is also now a requirement for wheelchair access so the old 150mm is out the window if you forgive the pun. The Parker and Morris standards are over 50 years old and houses and people's expectations are very different.
Great so you have level entry. So you use the s/s topped 100x 100 square ducting grid in concrete or black glass fiber duvting. The black melts the snow quicker. Your DPC goes down behind the ducting. The s/s grid finishes flush and the run off vacant be piped away.The ducting itself can sit on a 100mm bed of 20mm limestone chippings. It works a treat.Try it It is a truly professional finish. I used to buy the black 100mm ducting in 1mtr lengths with the black plastic grinding at £17 a mtr. The S/S grinding is more expensive but a classy job. If you show your client a sample they will jump at it.
They are not anyone's first choice but macerators are a solution that allows the previously unachievable to become achievable. If you are careful with them they are no trouble. The worst thing is cheap hotels and MHO where people use them as a waste disposal unit
@@SkillBuilder I’ve researched the thing, my concern is that because it’s in a guest en-suite in a garage conversion it’s not going to be used more than a handful of days a year. I’m dreading the thought of getting called out to sift through dried out turds to free up the blender or worse still in the waste pipe
How long have you been ranting now Roger? I was trying to think how far back i used to enjoy your back page rants on the installer and the builders one i can't remember the name off. You have kept me entertained for years anyway. Thank you.
I worked for magazines for over 30 years but nobody reads magazines anymore so it was time to move on and find a new audience. I must say I am happier now I can say anything I want without advertising reps trying to gag me. Oh there I go ranting again.
Fitted thousands of trays using silicon. Never had an issue. That upstanding would be a nightmare! Simple answer is don’t let builders fit shower trays let the plumbers do it.
Agree.👍 I’ve fitted thousands also never had any problems. The biggest problem I come across is people using the wrong silicone. Fit tray silicone seal (using sanitary silicone) Tile bathroom Seal it again (using sanitary silicone)
Same here, I use a tanking membrane on the walls, silicone to tray with Dow Corning silicone, tile then silicone again. Never had a problem. What are you supposed to stick the upstand to the tray with? Crap idea Roger along with all the other upstand, joint tape and miracle solutions out there.
Must say, I bed shower trays on sand and cement usually specified by manufacturers, can’t imagine the mess you would get into worth wet cement and sticky tape in the same area. A good silicone joint and a solid fitted tray, tile then silicone again as per some of the other replies here.
The Capillary Action of Water will always find a way in! As you know! I agree with you! Doesn’t take much for it to ingress into anything! As the saying goes, Fail to prepare, Prepare to Fail!!!! Same in everyday Life.
That’s if they turn up to give a price for the job. I use to get a good 80% of quotes off new customers by the other builders never turning up. Thank you 💷💷💷💷💷💷
Why the heck don't shower manufacturers make their pans with a much bigger flange on them (say 6 inches)? Then you build out the tile backer to make the flange and backer board surfaces flush and tile over. (Personally I never use tile preferring either floor to ceiling slab granite or tempered glass, or mirror.)
Shouldn’t have level patios with floors, outside should be min 6” lower for splash on dpc, if it is going to be level, fit a thin aco( don’t know the name of them, or a stone margin. Most floors are cast well before doors get fitted, so are cast to the outside skin where doors are, not many like screeding against new doors. Doing it like that diagram would allow water to ingress and come up through the weep holes if the ground water level rises above the weep hole level. Simple fact is most window fitters don’t seal the under side of the cill when they fit the windows, bed it on silicone or some other flexible filler to seal it
@@SkillBuilder so back to my first point , aco slot drain infront of the doors, all round the rest requires a pea gravel margin to stop damp. Love the videos tho Rodger keep them coming Tom
Sealant done right should last a while. The problem is that many use their finger to rub the bead instead of a proper tool. Also no washing-up liquid and no tape. This said, belt and braces never hurt.
Totally agree on the patio door cure!!!! But shower trays????? What the bloody hell are you using them for!!!!! Old technology!!!!! Here in Australia and New Zealand we through out shower trays decades ago!!!!! It’s all fully tiled showers now with a full membrane installed prior to the tilling work!!!! No leaks....... no problems!!! Regards Ian 👨🎤🇳🇿✊🇺🇦
@@SkillBuilder no no no .......they are not wet rooms!!!!!! That’s the rotten English weather getting into the house 🏠 I know ‘cause I lived in the UK many years ago!!! Have enjoyed your channel!!!! But I’m sure you know that kiwi tradesmen are the best in the universe!!!!!😂😂😂😂 Regards Ian kiwi 👨🎤⚠️😇😎🤔🌋🇺🇦✊🇳🇿
Ha! Yeeeerp. Reckon I'm going to have to rip out my bathroom as a result of something like that. When that gap opens up it wicks water in. Capillary action sucks it up like a pump.
Unless the water goes under the tape if poorly done, especially in the corner. Both techniques are good but, like always, you have to know how to do it properly.
Build your patio doors with a step - problem solved. It's fashion that has caused these problems. Same with showers. My shower might not be fashionable - you have to step up into it but its unfashionably deep tray and all round tall upstands and overlapping wall panels make it so I'd have to have water up to my shins before it leaked. Silicone is the very very last line of defence not the first. Not going to win any awards or get photos in a magazine but it'll be bone dry 20 years from now.
Just re-fitted a shower I installed 4 years ago with a distinct lack of knowledge. Educated by Roger, re-installed this month. No chance of water damage this time. Thanks Roger.
can you do a video rant on " 50 things builders get wrong "? trade by trade. love your rants.
Can't beat a Monday rant.😆. Your spot on with these subjects. Patios are a pain sometimes
As always well said Roger, love your rants , keep "em coming
I've pulled out 2 shower enclosure's recently for exactly the reasons Roger has specified , one had only been in 5 years , is a wicked waste of money and resources . Is unfortunate truth that the building industry is full of have a go heroes that don't read / can't read or are in some kind of mad rush to get in and out without concern for future consequences. This weeks job it was all the roof guttering going into the sewage soil pipe and then we wonder why the water companies release sewage in to our rivers. Keep making the videos Roger they are very informative, is a shame that muppetry have driven you to distraction and indignation, why not look out 'for textbook expertise' and building genius in the hope of raising the standards that way. I've got a suggestion for all builders, listen to Roger and people like him, read books, go on a training course, look at what people achieved in the past without electricity, see castles , Cathedrals with sacred geometry, put some love and pride back in to the job.
Do enjoy these rants.👍👍
What don't manufacturers make a shower tray with a 50mm upstand at the back/ corners as required where tiles can go straight onto it, problem solved. Trays been around for many years, so has the problem, so why haven't the tray designers dealt with the issue at source?.
Outside I always have a 3" gravel line around the house so water cannot get a chance to bukld up and go under any steps.
you can get trays with upstands yes, but ive seen so many that have had plasterboard board down to the lip, so there is a gap between board and lip top, without being sealed, and then tiled over...the grout cracks/tile lifts where plasterboard meets plastic lip and its another waterfall of seeping misery for the homeowner
They have been out for 30 years. Problen is they need to be sunk into the walls unless you spay the tiles and have the headache of a fitting the door. Like most things in the game it all falls down to communication, in other words fk it its not my job! And that is true and the plumber is always to blame
Gravel is a highway for water. Enjoy your foundation damage.
Because walls are seldom square.
Here in Australia both items are explicitly addressed under the building code
Love your rants, justified and educational. One thing you didn’t mention about the patio being flush with the inside floor is…always slope the F*king patio away from the house! Believe it or not, I bought a house with a newly block paved driveway that was sloped for water runoff…but in the wrong direction. AND it overstood the damp course. I literally found water fleas in the sodden shite that was the juncton with the house wall. I was speechless at the stupidity. I recently fitted a shower tray following your guidance, great job with this channel Roger!
I've used Coram trays for many years. Come with 3 or 4 upstands. Never had any trouble with them what so ever.
I'm about to design and build a new bathroom with shower in my detached garage/studio, doing a lot DIY, so THANK YOU! I'm an HVAC contractor so have a head start on a lot of things but it's details like this that I look for. Much love from across the pond in America. Be safe out there boss.
Brilliant stuff! I know to look out for this in my own home
I loved the 'left to their own devices' comment, for that read do as cheaply and quickly as they think they can get away with. This especially goes for people on sites working to prices.
There are a lot of good guys working on sites but they are on a price so the caraftmanship drops to near zero. Even the ones with a conscience think fk it and that is true
Problem is that some tradespeople will just say "I've been doing this for and it works fine". Some people don't adapt or learn or show interest in product developments or solutions over the years and they just keep doing the same thing over and over.
Spot on. Two separate friends of mine have recently had new consumer units installed in fairly large properties. Neither electrician bothered to explain or offer rcbo boards - just banged in the same old cheap crap split boards.
Rinse and repeat.
Absolutely, and in my line I have to find these issues, or gifts as I call them, and they seem surprised when called out and need to alter their practices to avoid repeats.
Totally agree, Roger, patio door manufacturers usually have a corresponding cill unit for all types of installation to prevent ingress of water .
Vertical pipes piercing over site d.p.c. membranes is another problem area.
Hi Roger, I'm currently fitting a shower tray at the moment and despite your advice on using a tape seal at the bottom, it still has only a 10mm contact point were it meets the shower tray from the wall and IMO is not a 100% guarantee to work ,as you are still reliant on the adhesive on the tape not to fail. I'll be using a rubberised adhesive on the bottom 25mm of the tile when setting in.
It can be summed up as "not my job".
As a landscaper this does my nut, people think this is the south of France because they see this on the magazines or the TV shows and demand this one level from outside to inside... Worst thing to do in the UK where it rains for like 10 months of the year!
What a great rant Roger!!! I think the greater reason is that it is because builders are not formally trained in the UK, in Germany they do three years and have a much higher status as a result. I bet UK building is a lot cheaper though! Would be great to see another video on this in future with a real life example of each.
I did 5 years in the UK and know the regs inside out better than most trainers. We are not all cowboys. Unfortunately now you can buy a qual and learn at the customers expense
Auf Wiedersehen, Pet
Top rant!
Phew, glad I've done it right on our extension and I'm just an amateur DIYer that's willing to learn.
I like your passion!!
''No more leaks'' everytime after your recommendation Roger! 💯😁
Hi Roger. Was called to some flats where the water was travelling about 20 ft from aqua drain on 1st floor walk way onto ceilings down below. Architech sugested using tech 7 to seal crack between concrete and aqua drain. I did not touch that job.
Never used the tape before, looks good idea but I always silicone tray to the wall then silicone seal around top of tray, tank then it’s tiled and then final silicone seal with squeezing deep into gape between trap and tiles to make sure it’s full, never had a problem or leak in ten plus years
Totally agreee on the patio doors. Seen it done several times.
Water is so damaging! Thanks for the tips! 👍
Always useful info
Never buy a shower tray that does not have an upstand that fits behind the tiles/paneling. Silicon is only ever temporary. Both of my showers are completely silicon free.
Have only been in the trades 8 years but always tried to apply 2 layers of waterproofing on all systems. If the silicone/flashing/beading fails you need a backup. Nice to see quality being promoted, it doesn't take much at the right time, and can save loads in future repairs.
Yanks will tell you that you never want to waterproofing systems not right against each other because you can create a sandwich of moisture that just sits there as both a health hazard and a degradation mechanism for the materials. 1 waterproofing membrane done correctly is all you need.👍
@@danielbuckner2167 that's not what fauci would say 😆
@@jordanlea1502 🤣
Literally did this today with a stacker door and a bifold. It’s really not a difficult thing to do 😂
Attention to detail 👍
Always silicon the tray into position then use a shower kit with the seal that goes on wall, shower tray and corners then seal the walls. Only adds about £50 to the job and you know you are never going to have a issue same when I fit baths.
Good rant fella
As a window installer and surveyor for properties, i always install DPC under big elements that are set on lower level of flooring. If the customer dosent comply with my request I ask him to give me a signature on a piece of paper with a text that covers me for legal covers on future. Also, i like to instal the DPC with 2 big lines of silicone and make sure that is correctly sealed under 'cause i dont want any moisture to raise under the DPC and brick work. After 12 years on doing it I only had 2 customers which had problems and we had to rectify the work. (Yeah, sometimes we fail but we have the chance to learn and improve). Nice topic and definitely one of the strongest things to admit your failure.
Good tips
Classi Seal or other EVERY TIME! I have Never had a shower fail over 20 years.
Thank you very much for this video Roger :) . Can you please do a follow up to this one, showing how to correct the problem after it has been installed (incorrectly) for some years. I am referring to a shower, which i think might be trickling water under the floor boards - I can smell a damp odour in the hall, the other side of the shower unit. :( . I imagine that the whole lot will have to be removed and to be re-installed properly.
Classi Plus if you're going down that route. (The basic Classi-Seal is just an EPDM strip which forms an upstand adhering to the shower tray. Classi-Plus is stuck to the wall too). No More Leaks looks a slightly better solution, to me, as it aims to redirect water away from the wall and back into the shower.
Does the job well.
You are a life saver
By the time the waters showing under the patio door Roger, the builders on his 4th pint of Guinness.
Are tilers to blame also? How many times have you seen grout used where a tile meets a worktop or shower tray? Cracking job
been using classi seal on any bathroom jobs ive done for years now maybe 10 year. recently i needed to buy one and went to toolstation... didnt know what i was on about. went to tile giant and they also didnt know... some lads in there said ohh theyre a waste of time and expensive... just use silicone... went to city plumbing and got one there.
The wall boards being used in the shower area, be that Wedi, Hardie or whatever, should all sit on top of the tray and not down the back of the tray. Water tracking down a board that has been installed down the back of the tray is the number one failure point, regardless of what has been used to seal it.
Silicone needs to bee seen as a liquid gasket. Applied between two faces, not over the top of two faces. 1 material is bedded onto the other, with silicone in between. Yet most times silicone is used as a tolerance disguise. It covers up, rather than seals.
I used a synthetic lead flashing under my patio doors in my garden room. Did i do the right thing? It’s actually 50mm off the ground and the i have the 85mm threshhold. I do find i get water in the track when it blows against the door, but i think thats what the weep vents are for? Its on a 160mmish sill
That is fine. The weep holes are key to draining that channel
What do you think of upstand shower trays. Yes harder to fit if you have three walls to get the third wall in the right place, but once done it lasts. For the self adhesive tape vacuum and clean (meths?) before fitting, but presumably the adhesive dries out one day? (Or is it cleverer?). Great video, keep 'em coming.
My pet hate I see repeatedly is silicone separation on bath edges or work tops. I don't think any seal can tolerate much movement. But baths often have small feet that if placed on the floor between joists will move between the bath being full and empty and when someone gets in. As water gets in this movement gets worse as the floor rots or softens, resealing doesn't work.
The solution in the bath case is a heavy wood section, 3x3" or metal box section across the joists and lift the feet to fit.
All makes sense! Lets do it!
That is the strangest way to install those I’ve ever seen. In MA , USA we only use copper shower pans, 6 in copper sides. Durarock over the copper side and waterproofed, then tile . Impossible to leak.
Sliders and doors get a weatherproof flex tape on the floor and down the front , then a molded plastic pan or a lead pan with raised sides and interior. Silicone the sides and rear only , so if any water gets in it can’t penetrate the pan and rolls out the front . Making it impossible to leak into the house
In terms of doors. I would say industry in itself is at fault. Companies don't want to pay any decent money for skilled workforce, so they get labourer tier workers for low pay, push them to unreasonable deadlines to maximise profits. And there you go all the problems come up in next couple years if not sooner and customers have to pay again to get it fixed. On the other hand, A lot of customers expect to hire self employed people for basicly not even minimum wage day rates and expect to have a good job done, where no tradesmen fall into the category so then again unskilled and DIY handymen beat the qoutes, do them in and guess what happens next....
I've been to so many leaking shower trays in my time that I now tank every shower tray installation that I do. Adds a couple of hours and £100 on the job but I can walk away knowing that it's not going to leak..
I have my own DIY flood protection permanently in place - fingers crossed!
Does the shower seal go under the tile and on top of the shower pan, and does the seal get trimmed off at the front side of the tile?
The bottom half goes on the side of the tray and the other half has adhesive on the reverse side for the wall.
Installed a shower tray 5 years ago. Used rubber tape with adhesive. One side for the tray and the top edge for the wall. This tape was especially designed for the purpose.The tiles were placed on the tray edge and water ingress was prevented. This method has stood the test of time. The wall itself should be made decent. The joists were reinforced with extra wood and proper bolts to take the weight.
What do you do if your builder has built an extension on the boundary lines (therefore, no space for the guttering to fit) even though the plans were to build one brick in before the boundary lines
Extend the brickwork up, say 450 mm to form a parapet then a concealed lead gutter , that will resolve the problem without encroachment
We dream of patio doors, in fact we dream of having a patio.
I live in a box under a fly over.
I always lift the door up slightly and have the door set on concrete.I have never had a leak.Never had a complaint from a customer either.
4:49 Problem also is the insurance companies. Many years ago now, probably late 90s we had a crack in house I grew up in, in London (move out of London years ago, wouldn't want to live there now). Anyway. Long story short it was subsidence. Insurance paid out for repairs and sent "decorators" round. The most incompetent, cheap ones they could find. Found this out after listening to parents and brother in law. He was a professional decorator and did it by the book. The cowboys the insurance company sent damaged a unit in the front room and were supposed to, as part of the claim, do the whole front bedroom. Brother in law went round inspecting after and we put in a complaint later. Only details I can remember to this day (other than the damaged unit in living room) was the bedroom door. Brother in law ran hand down it. Smooth middle and top, rough down the bottom. He said all the guy has done is sand the top and middle to make himself look busy, then never bothered to do the rest of the door so he didn't have to bend down.
Regards the shower tray some will put any cheap silicone on with little flexibility/anti moulding properties.
RODGER YOU'VE DONE IT AGAIN . GREAT MAN ! YOUR MY PAL . BIG THANKS RODGER A*****
Would be best to use a shower tray with integral up stands that would be tiled over.
A large house builder started to use these and all complaints about leaking shower trays stopped.
Reason why builders do the silicon thing is because it's easy and by then they're long gone with the money.
We Like a 'Rogerly-Rant' .... 😄👍👏👏
Does anyone have any thoughts on a patio that is bang on level with dpc? Infact I levelling across from the patio to the internal floor and the patio is higher than the internal floor by 15mm take away laminate floor and underlay and looking at 25mm
Try putting in an Aco drain
Would it still be possible for water to get underneath the dpm and come in that way?
Yes I neglected to say that I stick it down.
All shower trays and shower baths should be installed to BS not sure of number but it states that a water proof membrane should be appiled prior to tiling
Many dont have the brain power or the training, after all anybody can call themselves a builder.
Nobody ever asks to see any certificates of competancy or qualifications they just take them by their word and hand over thousands !.
Had my own fencing business with skilled workmen with nvq's and city and guilds. When the local large carpet factory closed about half a dozen guys went thier own way with L200 pickup a spade and called themselves landscape gardeners and fencers. No training as they were carpet workers last week. We lost several jobs to these people, and the really annoying thing was they were often alot more expensive than us and did some atrocious work too !
That's the daftest thing I've herd water gets under the dpm just do the right thing and put a drainage channel or go 150mm down like the regs say
i still do showers that way i have never had a call back but i need to change my ways. patio door iv seen them installed on top of carpets before!
...on top of carpets...???!!! WTF : )))
@@spanishpeaches2930 yep client couldn't Figure out in bad weather why the carpet turned into a wick.
The problem is now I don’t trust any builder other than Roger to fit my new shower!
Good rant, Roger. Keep it up! Other countries, like much of the US, manage to have a 'code' for building (and electric, gas, water) standards. In the UK, it's too easy to get away with shoddy work. Trade bodies, central government and local authorities all have a part to play, but they don't. Nobody wants to pay for enforced standards, while cowboys can thrive. Everybody points fingers at the other guy. Meanwhile, Grenfell Tower stands as a shameful, charred memorial to their collective failure.
Trade bodies in general don't represent anyone on the ground. Too busy lobbying and running around with their big badges on. Yes once in a while they may get something useful but in general tey are big boys clubs for a night away from the wife.
The morning i woke up to grendfell i said to the wife that is the Kingspan or whatever insulation they used. Being a plumber i knew that stuff burns like fk when hit with a blowlamp. Why did the clowns in charge not know that.............they did!
I worked for many years for a diy "shed" fixing bathrooms, particularly leaking showers and baths. The most common error I found was people/plumbers/builders/weekend DIY warriors sealed the shower screen/door and tray at the same time, leaving a tiny area of tray not sealed to the tiles where the door frame is installed. The other big issue was baths fitted without a batten on the walls, just relying on a sealant and the bath legs. Hey ho...
Anyone with a half brain knows you seal the tray and wipe off the seal to 5mm on the edges then fit the screen next day but i the real world even when they know what shoud be done it is not always possible especially working for a company. All down to money and costs,
You work for a company and are sent to replace a tray and screen, you come in next morning and say i just have the screen to fit you are sacked. Thats the way it is.
Firstly, if there’s a sill with a drip edge, water would struggle to get under the frame in any decent amount, the outside level should always be lower in my opinion.
Secondly, I glue the trays to the walls with silicone, then silicone the top joint, tile then silicone again, the only issues I’ve ever had is with cheap piece of sh*t trays that flex (which I refuse to fit these days), I’ve fitted hundreds of them this way, it works well.
Quick question for anybody with input : mum's Vaillant Turbomax 828e is on the way out, what is a good replacement for this?
Ta
Baxi 830 if you can get one, they’re in short supply.
Had a Viesmann installed 3 weeks ago. I think it is the dog's doo daas.
I always put a slot drain under the doors. Never had any problems.
can't believe builders would make things up as they go along
i'm pretty sure that's not actually to spec or best practice? On the patio door comment ? That's your personal option (not to say it's not a good way of fitting)... however - Shower tray - is best practice from what I understand. Be interested to hear what is best practice from the UPVC/door suppliers ?
If you make sure you use a good amount of a decent bathroom silicone at the side edges of the shower tray as the tray is being installed , you’ll never have a leak .
Yes you will, I have been out to lots of them where the silicone parts company with the tray and the water is sucked through a crack you can barely see. It is the reason we continue to have these problems.
This guy makes me smile. For all the wrong reasons. He may have helped with a shower tray but when it comes to the DPC specs on patio doors, he seems to think that the walls are 100mm single skins and he don't seem to have heard of the regulation 150mm upstand..I have spent my whole life in the building trade. I installed miles of DPC and Radon Barriers, Oh your dramatic and entertaining my friend but you need to visit your City and Guilds rule book or take a run through Parker and Morris standards.
If you just google on how to clear DPC trays and how to install DPC aprons you will get the idea..There is a world of difference between
Shower trays and DPC aprons.
I mean let's face it, The reason we specify 150mm DPC upstands is simply to protect against Snow falls and torrential rain fall.
George
Thanks for your interesting comment but customers these days are hell bent on the level access threshold. If you tell them they have to step down 150mm from their pation door they get someone else to fit them. There is also now a requirement for wheelchair access so the old 150mm is out the window if you forgive the pun. The Parker and Morris standards are over 50 years old and houses and people's expectations are very different.
Great so you have level entry. So you use the s/s topped 100x 100 square ducting grid in concrete or black glass fiber duvting. The black melts the snow quicker. Your DPC goes down behind the ducting. The s/s grid finishes flush and the run off vacant be piped away.The ducting itself can sit on a 100mm bed of 20mm limestone chippings.
It works a treat.Try it It is a truly professional finish. I used to buy the black 100mm ducting in 1mtr lengths with the black plastic grinding at £17 a mtr. The S/S grinding is more expensive but a classy job. If you show your client a sample they will jump at it.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on macerators. Gotta use one on a job and I’m not happy about it!
They are not anyone's first choice but macerators are a solution that allows the previously unachievable to become achievable. If you are careful with them they are no trouble. The worst thing is cheap hotels and MHO where people use them as a waste disposal unit
@@SkillBuilder I’ve researched the thing, my concern is that because it’s in a guest en-suite in a garage conversion it’s not going to be used more than a handful of days a year. I’m dreading the thought of getting called out to sift through dried out turds to free up the blender or worse still in the waste pipe
Marvellous - keep on ranting!
If Daniel Craig and Gordon Ramsay had a child lmao
How long have you been ranting now Roger? I was trying to think how far back i used to enjoy your back page rants on the installer and the builders one i can't remember the name off. You have kept me entertained for years anyway. Thank you.
I worked for magazines for over 30 years but nobody reads magazines anymore so it was time to move on and find a new audience. I must say I am happier now I can say anything I want without advertising reps trying to gag me. Oh there I go ranting again.
It’s not getting it wrong, it’s just not giving a shit
I always put dpc in weather it be doors or windows
Fitted thousands of trays using silicon. Never had an issue. That upstanding would be a nightmare! Simple answer is don’t let builders fit shower trays let the plumbers do it.
100%
Builders should just stick to the heavy lego )
Agree.👍 I’ve fitted thousands also never had any problems. The biggest problem I come across is people using the wrong silicone.
Fit tray
silicone seal (using sanitary silicone)
Tile bathroom
Seal it again (using sanitary silicone)
Same here, I use a tanking membrane on the walls, silicone to tray with Dow Corning silicone, tile then silicone again. Never had a problem. What are you supposed to stick the upstand to the tray with? Crap idea Roger along with all the other upstand, joint tape and miracle solutions out there.
Must say, I bed shower trays on sand and cement usually specified by manufacturers, can’t imagine the mess you would get into worth wet cement and sticky tape in the same area.
A good silicone joint and a solid fitted tray, tile then silicone again as per some of the other replies here.
What's that special tape called?
No More Leaks Kit
@@SkillBuilder thanks
The Capillary Action of Water will always find a way in! As you know!
I agree with you!
Doesn’t take much for it to ingress into anything!
As the saying goes, Fail to prepare, Prepare to Fail!!!!
Same in everyday Life.
See the Australian National Construction Code and the NSW Master Builder's Association Publications on this and related topics.
Regards,
Geoff. Reeks
That’s if they turn up to give a price for the job. I use to get a good 80% of quotes off new customers by the other builders never turning up. Thank you 💷💷💷💷💷💷
Why the heck don't shower manufacturers make their pans with a much bigger flange on them (say 6 inches)? Then you build out the tile backer to make the flange and backer board surfaces flush and tile over.
(Personally I never use tile preferring either floor to ceiling slab granite or tempered glass, or mirror.)
Have you ever done a shower tray that way in the old days Mr Bisby?
You remind me of "Holm on Homes" saying do it right.
Shouldn’t have level patios with floors, outside should be min 6” lower for splash on dpc, if it is going to be level, fit a thin aco( don’t know the name of them, or a stone margin.
Most floors are cast well before doors get fitted, so are cast to the outside skin where doors are, not many like screeding against new doors.
Doing it like that diagram would allow water to ingress and come up through the weep holes if the ground water level rises above the weep hole level.
Simple fact is most window fitters don’t seal the under side of the cill when they fit the windows, bed it on silicone or some other flexible filler to seal it
Level access is now a requirement so bang goes the anti splash 150mm
@@SkillBuilder so back to my first point , aco slot drain infront of the doors, all round the rest requires a pea gravel margin to stop damp. Love the videos tho Rodger keep them coming
Tom
Why do people not use trays with upstands?
they have their issues too
Nobody wants to sell them these days. It is too complicated and they don't stack well
@@SkillBuilder you can get em, but the internet 'market traders' flooding the market with cheap stoneresin got the market cornered.
@@bodinski100 what are the issues?
@@SkillBuilder Can buy a Mira flight with upstands from Toolstation.
Made this mistake with my garage.
Sealant done right should last a while. The problem is that many use their finger to rub the bead instead of a proper tool. Also no washing-up liquid and no tape. This said, belt and braces never hurt.
Totally agree on the patio door cure!!!!
But shower trays????? What the bloody hell are you using them for!!!!! Old technology!!!!!
Here in Australia and New Zealand we through out shower trays decades ago!!!!!
It’s all fully tiled showers now with a full membrane installed prior to the tilling work!!!!
No leaks....... no problems!!!
Regards Ian 👨🎤🇳🇿✊🇺🇦
We have wet rooms too and there are leaks with those if not done properly.
@@SkillBuilder no no no .......they are not wet rooms!!!!!! That’s the rotten English weather getting into the house 🏠
I know ‘cause I lived in the UK many years ago!!! Have enjoyed your channel!!!!
But I’m sure you know that kiwi tradesmen are the best in the universe!!!!!😂😂😂😂 Regards
Ian kiwi 👨🎤⚠️😇😎🤔🌋🇺🇦✊🇳🇿
Ha! Yeeeerp. Reckon I'm going to have to rip out my bathroom as a result of something like that. When that gap opens up it wicks water in. Capillary action sucks it up like a pump.
Unless the water goes under the tape if poorly done, especially in the corner. Both techniques are good but, like always, you have to know how to do it properly.
Build your patio doors with a step - problem solved. It's fashion that has caused these problems. Same with showers. My shower might not be fashionable - you have to step up into it but its unfashionably deep tray and all round tall upstands and overlapping wall panels make it so I'd have to have water up to my shins before it leaked. Silicone is the very very last line of defence not the first. Not going to win any awards or get photos in a magazine but it'll be bone dry 20 years from now.