How Do Effeminate Men Fit In? | with Donovan Cleckley & Ritchie
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- čas přidán 12. 11. 2022
- My camera overheated so I disappear in the latter half, but don't worry I'm still listening.
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#gendernonconformity #masculinity #transition
I don't understand why suicidal ideations results in immediat wish granting in the case of gender dysphoria, while in all other cases it leads to the psych ward + "you'll have to learn to cope with it" therapy, whatever this "it" refers to.
I'm a female who always looked more masculine. Due to some medical conditions I have high levels of male hormones which results in a lot of body hair, deeper voice etc. Because of that I thought that if i become a male I will finally be accepted. Thankfully my trans phase was gone after a year and I've just started (21 years old) to accept myself and express myself as I am. I'm still young and I'm so glad that I'm working on myself and realizing things. I'm glad I know myself more and I didnt' start medical transition back then. To this day I'm very mentally unstable, I'm also autistic and have ADHD. With such packaged of mental problems or disabilities I think it's harder to come to terms with such things as gender, identity etc.
And even now I dress more masculine and DON'T CARE. That's just me. I don't like all pink girly clothes, makeup and all that and THAT'S OKAY. I can be a girl and enjoy more masculine hobbies/clothes.
Two very engaging, funny, compassionate, astute young men. Great conversation.
I'm a 58 GWM. I was just like these boys: delayed puberty, naturally effeminate, and wanted to be "normal". But eventually, I made it through puberty and college and eventually became increasingly more comfortable in my own skin. I feel like we as Gay Elders are failing to connect with these vulnerable queer kids and let them know that they are OK just the way they are. Apart from the fact that so many of us died prematurely, technology is the big divide. These kids are on social media/internet, etc all the time and it's hard for us to reach them. Interviewing "Gay Elders" would be interested to hear from...
Josh Slocum is doing a pretty good job of getting out there, but you're right that more of these voices could only be beneficial!
I think much discomfort around trans identifying people today isn't necessarily from their cross sex presentation itself, but from the fact that we're expected to shut down our minds to biological truth and regard them as indistinguishable from the sex in which they're presenting. If men presenting as women could be treated, with respect, as that (and the same for women presenting as men), I think everyone, including trans people, would be much more at ease.
The naming part of this was a freaking trip!!! To think it is even possible to think that white patriarchs invented sex differences is impossible. Dogs know the differences between humans.
But dogs serve the Patriarchy, so of course they're going to know their masters. Seriously though, while doing doggo daycare, I encountered a number of dogs with strong gender preferences for humans. One doggo I cared for was really hostile toward men & really liked women. That doggo hated me. That dog hated a trans woman that worked with me, too. The dog read this person as just another man to hate, growl at, and try to bite.
@@jeffzeiler346 Good sniff don't lie.
Two very cogent guests, greatly appreciate the dialogue!
“It is of dangerous consequence to represent to man how near he is to the level of beasts, without showing him at the same time his greatness. It is likewise dangerous to let him see his greatness without his meanness. It is more dangerous yet to leave him ignorant of either; but very beneficial that he should be made sensible of both.” -Blaise Pascal
Did he mean "man" in a narrow way or did he mean human? In French "man" ("homme") as well can mean human as in English.
@@miriamlana833 Could be either. I think it would apply more to men than women though.
Both Donovan and Ritchie!? What a treat! ❤
You guys are amazing. Thanks, Benjamin.
Well, had to catch up due to my failure yesterday and filled in some gaps. Both guests are very articulate and hard to imagine got caught up in all of this trans ideology. Shows how much influence others can create!
PS> Gotta add the opening kitty footage was as advertised as well. Your adult has REALLY taken to the new micro-furrball ninja ❤
You really shouldn't let your kids have unsupervised access to the internet until they are 17-18. My kids aren't allowed to have devices in their rooms
Good parenting. The consequences of frequent unsupervised internet usage among adolescents are crystal clear now, and they're (obviously) not good consequences. Don't let anyone tell you what you're doing is wrong. I wish my parents did it similarly.
Yes, I think not having computers in the bedroom or private spaces is an excellent idea.
Smart phones are the worst..
That's what I did and no smart phones. They were able to text, but none with internet capability until 16-17 and they were turned over at night so I knew they wouldn't be on them instead of sleeping. My youngest is a gay effeminate man, 24 this month, and he managed to avoid getting sucked in. It absolutely was attempted when he went away to college, but because he had a good foundation he resisted.
Edit: He even went to the psychiatrist at school. They said he was far too well adjusted and comfortable in his own skin to be recommended. Basically he didn't have mental problems.
@@debanydoombringer1385 glad that he didn't get medicalized like that. They see them as $$$
this needs to be talked about way more_ mostly,white poor boys being preyed upon by adult men. ( boys in th 8 to 14-15,the younger tha...(sadly this is a huge group of our generation (the ones i need) Our generation sees child sexual abuse in these ages as mostly about girls. Sadly ha huge group of boys are being overlooked and/also being putt into the groups of young gay boys. hopefully these kids will get more light on them
The HauptbhanhoffKinfder..
@@espenbjerke1905 well, that was a depressing Google search
I'm so glad for Donovan not having been sucked into the internet as a young kid 😊. I agree the unlimited access that many kids have is not healthy at all. These are both such brilliant guests. The discussion about naming-- good God-- this kind of activism is based on the belief that language and reality are one and the same--if you name it, it exists ---and if you don't name it, it doesn't exist.
Detransitioners are a very oppressed minority of queer folx, there are less detransitioners than trans people. Dephobic trans activists need to consider the optics of their positionality as the people with more privilege in these interactions. If they have any objections remind them of their intersectional lense.
Ritchie improved this in all the right ways.
Y'all are both so cuute
Excellent and very informative calmversation!
FemmeBoys : Younger the better ,on one side, The side with the money/power are "quite" old
“Conversate” is not a word, Ben.
1:57:46 The dam has broken, in all the social demographics not just trans people, to say all sorts of stuff. And it's harder to know the difference between things that are offensive and ones that aren't than ever before. It's also legitimate to be on guard around a person who believes something you think is crazy, especially if it affects you, but we used to be able to be more tolerant, where has that gone?
Boil the teapot…
… Toast the toaster?
37:05 I did not allow my kids to have cell phones before age 15. Even back before cell phones, I was very conservative about my kids' tv time, and internet access is so much more insidious. I don't understand how parents do not understand this.
(Actually I'm sure they understand it, it's just too easy to hand them a cell phone and not parent.)
And FYI, my kids have noticed a very obvious mental health change in their friends once they all started getting cell phones. We are very clear in our family that we do not want to be ruled by our devices.
Not being on twitter, I don't know how many people of my generation are say they would've been trans kids if they were born later, or under what context or in what tone it is said. Richie's frustration with it might totally be accurate. It is important however to consider the numbers of trans kids now (scary high) and maybe, their were as many kids struggling with gender back in the day. The difference is we didn't know transitioning was an option until we had grown into a healthier sense of self. Maybe some of the people saying they would've been trans kids had all 'the vectors", as Richie said, but had know other option but to work through their disphoria.
Exactly. I used to want to be male(about 5 to when I started dating) i didnt really get over the idea until I was 16 or so. I didnt even know about transitioning though.
Great interview all around I was just hoping to get more of what the title of the video said. I guess I was expecting more talk on where gay men fit in the larger community and their acceptance therein especially by heterosexual men.
thank you for comparing the trans cult to the jonestown movement i feel its very apt
Question: Did Donovan read the Martine Rothblatt's 'From Transgender to Transhuman: A Manifesto on the Freedom of Form'?
I'm hella fancy on Twitter 😂
I was late, whoops.
There wouldn't be an issue with children if they were allowed hobbies
It bleeds out into hobbies. A lot of the nerdy ones were coopted to some extent. I say this as someone who came up in the furry, anime/comics/video game side of things.
algorithm yeet
1:13:20 I don't see how the extension of gay rights to transrights is not logical? It seems quite the logical next step. The shite thing is that transrights comes with medicalization.
Yes where do we fit in? Where do us cat boys fit in?
Great to see Newguy enjoying his new boytoy
richie everytime i see you i wonder if we are related you look just like me when i have a fringe
“A woman simply is, but a man must become. Masculinity is risky and elusive. It is achieved by a revolt from woman, and it confirmed only by other men. Manhood coerced into sensitivity is no manhood at all.” -Camille Paglia
Shouldn't women have adventures and challenges too?
@@maureensansburn6413 You probably replied to the wrong comment.
@@maureensansburn6413 This!! Speaking as a woman, I think we ALL have our various challenges, adventures, and initiations, into becoming whole-@ss, full-fledged PEOPLE. And yeah.. SOME experiences, such as for instance giving birth, or menopause, or going through male or female puberty, are both formative AND sex specific! But the others..? Are just plain PERSON specific. If you're a masculine male, or a feminine female, I guess you'll have your own journey in coming into that. But personally, I think it's more like a journey of embracing both the masculine AND the feminine parts of myself! Which, I think we all have access to both, and are fundamentally some combination of both. And if you're a naturally more masculine female, for instance..? Your journey might be one of coming to love and embrace your masculinity! While still accepting your sex, and coming to love and embrace your body as well! Not to mention, appreciating how cool that combination is! Or at least that's what it should have been, had not "trans" hijacked people's minds, and totally f*cked that up for literally droves of GNC people!
But yeah.. Men don't have to become more masculine. Women don't have to become more feminine. We are what we are. Plus a lot of this sh*t is down to social constructs, norms, and performances, anyway. Or otherwise LEARNED. Which, I think I'm also just generally on a journey of freeing myself from that crap. I am a woman because of my biology. And other than that, I'm just a unique PERSON! Masculine AND feminine. Or maybe neither, if you reject the concepts altogether. Which, I don't know.. Sometimes I find them useful, and sometimes I don't. But when they start getting imposed on people, thus limiting them, or demanding / expecting things of them..? I IMMEDIATELY go into "f*ck ALL of this!" mode. Women can be brave and bad@ss knights, men can wear frilly dresses and be HELLA submissive, and it's all good. :)
@@InterstellarDreams Women could not be knights.
Women really believe the hype that feminism has sold them. Jeesh.
“Men want a battle to fight, an adventure to live, and a beauty to rescue. That is what is written in their hearts. That is what little boys play at. That is what men’s movies are about. You just see it. It is undeniable.” -John Eldredge
Why can't a man have adventures and the "beauty" has adventures along with him? Dale Evans & Roy Rodgers, Spencer Tracy, and Katherine Heparin. Why do so many men need women to be weak, passive and insipid for them to feel validated?
@@maureensansburn6413 Why cannot men give birth to life? Why cannot women fight the battles? Don't blame me for nature.
@@maureensansburn6413 The irony of you asking such an insipid question while pretending to be above it is also quite amusing.
@@maureensansburn6413 A beauty to rescue doesnt mean she is weak or passive. Maybe she just hates her life, or wants to get away from family. Nobody said women are weak and passive except you.
maybe lift some weights and get swole lul