Can you hard turn HSS in the home shop? || RotarySMP
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- čas přidán 6. 07. 2024
- Can you hard turn an M48 HSS blank with a CBN insert in the home shop?
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HSS pot scrubbers - for when you absolutely, positively have to ruin your old ladies non stick pans.
It probably would polish up hardened drill rod/O2/A2 very well.
Yeah, I could get into no end of trouble for cleaning the teflon pans.
Turning cobalt HSS as if it was aluminium. That's quite spectacular.
Hi Michel. Yeah, it is quite an impressive capacity, for such a small machine.
Nice compilation from the live version! 👍 The slo-mo really reinforces the way the chips take out the heat. Looking forward to the broaching process, too.
Hi Doric, yeah, it is amazing how cool the part remains.
That’s amazing watching those chips glow! Thanks for this sweet video
Thanks for watching. It went really well.
You should add a time delay on the spindle.0.at-speed pin in the LinuxCNC to prevent cutting before the spindle is fully up to speed.
Thanks. I suspected there was a way to automate that.
I'm a hobby machinist and have spent 30 years trying to learn as much as possible. This video was the best, most engaging learning I've experienced since hanging out with my 90 year old tool maker friend when I first fell in love with machining. THANKYOU for your time and content. This was so good. I fully thought you were kiwi like me with your accent, but maybe an Xpat... thanks from down under down under. Chch nZ ❤
Thanks for your kind feedback Max.
I’m a kiwi in Austria.
Making glowing worms like that, you should be wearing a wizards hat.
And have a lightning scar on my forehead?
Spectacular shots of the chips, and real interesting video!
Glad you enjoyed it. I turned down the shop lights to film the swarf coming off read hot.
Hi Mark that sure does glow pretty. I did forget to mention on our live stream thread about the taper, is that you can program it out.
Once you know what the taper is you "simply" program that as your tool path.
It's done all of the time in production, especially for parts turned between centers , there is no way around part deflection otherwise.
Hi Steve. I really need to get the chip guard down, and then move the lathe off the wooden blocks onto more stable feet, and align it.
@@RotarySMP I remember that you said that you want to elevate it enough so that you can run your pallet truck underneath it.
how much additional height do you need?
What taper is the spindle ? the best way for spindle alignment (ie factory) is an alignment bar fitted the the spindle.
search for spindle alignment bar
@@steveggca The spindle is Schaublin B32 collet native. Doubt I can find an alingment bar, but ,maybe I can get my mate Franz to grind one on his big TOS cylindrical grinder.
@@steveggca I have the machine on 80mm wooden blocks. My final set up will probably need to be 60mm+ to get the pallet jack under it.
@@RotarySMP do you have more of that HSS blank or maybe the linear rail shaft ? mount it in a collet and then check the runout at the collet and then the free end.
assuming that there is no runout at the collet end and not a huge runout at the free end , zero the indicator at the collet end, jog out to the to the free end ,rotate
the spindle until the indicator zeros and Et viola ! you have a bandaid alignment bar.
You would ideally want about 300mm but anything over 100mm will get you started.
Wholly chit! those red hot chips are insane, but look at that finish!
Yeah, I was really happy with that finish.
That was really cool, it's truly amazing the advancements in tooling these days. 👍
It really is. That is some seriously hard and tough steel.
First seen on the Internet .. Phase Change Inserts .. really nice shots.. thanks !!
Thanks for your feedback.
Wow, great videography! Really liked the close up Makro shots. As for the chipped insert, you at least can touch them up one time, just put on a nice slightly negative radius on the cutting edge.
Hi Christian. I dont think that insert is chipped. It looks more like wear. Did you regrind some with a diamond wheel? I need to try that.
@@RotarySMP yess i use a diamond wheel, diamond still beats cbn😁 stefan gtwr made a video a few years ago about that topic.
it's really cool to see someone actually hard turn on youtube. hopefully we can see more hard turning with say something like 4140 ph
When I went looking for info on hard turning HSS-E, there is not much out there. There are plenty of videos, like Stefan Gotteswinter's of hard turning more conventional steels like 4140 though.
@@RotarySMP yeah, for hss you can use carbide, just normal carbide, id stick to insert tooling though.
the hardest I've personally worked with was a customer job at work that called for 4340 with a hardness of around 55 Rockwell C but the same logic still applies. as long as the cutter is harder than the material it will work.
@@ramentaryramblings I just googled "what is the HRC of carbide, and it seems to range between about 65-85. That 1.3207 can be delivered at up to HRC67, so it could be pretty borderline for some grades of carbide.
@@RotarySMP yeah, most name brand carbide will running around 72-75 minimum. and quality brands will run in the low 80s. if your getting even halfway decent carbide it's not an issue. most manufacturers on the packaging will rate carbide for hardened materials in the surface footage chart. cbn and diamond insterts will work but it's a bit overkill unless your working with case hardened materials.
otherwise treat hardened material like stainless, low surface footage with an okay chipload, but don't worry too much if the chipload isn't high, especially for normal hardened material, for hss yeah I'd put more though into it but let the insert geometry do the work
Impressive to see the redglowing string of chips!
Looks like the insert would love to see even more speed
It probably would, but that is the speed limit of the collet closer piston.
Those macro shots! That surface quality! Yowza.
Thanks. The Schaublin did a great job.
Oh man, that fiery lava swarf is just music to your eyes...
Glad you liked it. I turned down the shop lighting to film it.
Mark, slo-mo is just incredible!!!
Thanks, I upgraded to a GH5S and GH5M2 this year, which gives me wider frame rate options.
That's so cool when the metal gets separated and starts glowing. Don't touch 😁
I turned the room lights down to video it. Looked very cool.
Hi Mark. Another great video. Back in the day, early nineties we used to turn hardened toolsteels D2 and O1 mainly at approx rc 60 using ceramic tips these also put out nice red hot swarf. I haven't done any real hard turning since. With the cnc lathe I think you should try putting bigger radius on diameter change steps as much as possible to avoid stress concentrators. Especially with rotary broach tooling.
Cheers for the excellent vid
Thanks for that tip Steven. In this case that diameter change basically got ground away when I ground the hex (which was probably too long).
Great slo mo shots 😀
Hi Julia. Thanks, I like playing around with that stuff.
Those diamond tools are very nearly magical.
Hi Jim, they sure are.
CBN isnt diamond, the carbon in steel will react with the diamond and form graphite, so for hard turning people use cubic boron nitride, which is almost as hard as diamon without the graphite problems
CBN works very well, even on light machines ! A rigid one gives a better surface finish, but the cutting forces are not that high.
I was surprised how nice a finish it left.
Gday from Australia 🎉
Love the schaublin
Hi frm Austria. Yeah, me as well.
I've always wondered how a cbn tool cut so well while the cutting edges are chamfered
Yeah, it seems more like smearing the metal off then cutting it, but the result is not smeared at all.
Nice work
Thank you! Cheers!
I hope you are going to sharpen that CBN tool back to cutting shape. Robin Renzetti told us on his Instagram that you have to lap the edge of the CBN insert to a very keen edge if you want to avoid chipping of the edge.
You of course use diamond wheel for sharpening.
Yes, I was going to have a go at touching it up. Thanks for the honing tip.
about time :)
Thanks :)
Recall turning the shanks of Taps to provide a measure of relief while working at Sunkist Growers 1987-8.
I used slow speed, fresh-tipped carbide insert tooling, and very slow feed.
Thanks Dennis.
I did some hard turning of some 62 rockwell C tool steel the other day, what I found was the inserts would almost immediately chip but then would cut just fine on the chipped surface for a decent amount of time. I wasn't using any kind of special insert, just regular stuff for turning steel. I'm guessing hard turning likes a blunt edge, so that CBN insert might last some time even with the chipped edge.
It was not so easy to tell from the macro shots, but my feeling was that the CBN was more eroded than chipped.
Heh, I'd be interested in that Schaublin 125-CNC if it wasn't in France, and I was in the US (the shipping might be a tad expensive), and if I hadn't just gotten a late 90's CNC lathe for free last weekend!
Nice score. What did you get?
@@RotarySMP Hitachi Seiki TF15 but with a blown up spindle drive. Someone attempted to repair it before, and they replaced all of the IGBTs, and a couple of the IGBT drive hybrids, but they missed replacing a couple other components that blew up on that side of the drive as well - I think I discovered all the blown up stuff yesterday, so need to order some parts. One of the 18V linear regulators that supplies gate drive voltages for the IGBTs was toast (only producing 2.2v not 18, and when tested out of the circuit, wasn't a regulator at all anymore), and there was also a voltage supervisor chip on that rail, with an opto to the digital control side telling it that the IGBT bias voltages are all good that was shorted. I'm guessing without that "voltage ok" signal, it won't even attempt to turn on any IGBTs and run the motor.
@@gorak9000 This machine is lucky to have a guy with your troubleshooting experience to save it before it got shipped to the blast furnace. Good one.
i love turning hardened stuff... until facing the part :D
My mate asked me if I was going to part it as well. Hell no!
Linux tip! Instead of using an HDMI splitter, you could capture directly in software from your LinuxCNC machine since -- it's a Linux machine! Normal things work on that too. You'd only have to make sure you have enough performance dedicated to running the actual machining program first.
Fortunately, a feature on Linux called cgroups is very good at guaranteeing some minimum specs (ram, cpu, etc...) for the app, and you could test it to see if doing both simultaneously causes either frame loss or spindle issues.
I do use the linux simple screen recorder all the time, but for live streaming, I would need an HDMI feed, not recording.
@@RotarySMP I understand-- you can send a stream of your screen (live) over your LAN to whatever machine you run OBS on or whatever streaming platform... No need to use HDMI cables and involve more hardware when you already have ethernet!
@@purpleidea I switched from OBS to an Atem mini pro ISO, as I got too many random stability issues with software switching.
Next video: Can you machine Plutonium spheres in home shop 🤔
No in this life time.
I saw a Schaublin 102N for $3750, but it's too small for me: i bet super precise though, like a Wabeco.
A china E-leadscrew lathe on ebay is $2k, but it's got 1.5" thru hole and 40 inch bed: no way i'd trust the electrics as you're totally reliant on it not failing, imagine trying to find a replacement.
The 102N is based on a very rigid, classic lathe. I dont think the Wabeco chinese sourced machines are in that class.
Oh this is going to be a good one. I just went through this with my Wolhlaupter head with a integrated 1-1/2” straight shank.
I too used the CBN inserts on my lil Clausing Metosa C1330S manual lathe. I was able to turn that 1-1/2” shank down to a .010” oversized 3/4” shank, then finished it up with the trusty tool post grinder down to size. Them Wolhlaupter heads are case hardened to Rockwell 20,000 billion I think….
But I managed to turn it down with only one tip of one insert by taking .005” passes or less.
The plan was to “practice hard turn” the shank down and then ultimately cut the shank off and drill and tap it for the differential screw ( I believe it is 20mm 1.5 and 16mm 2.5 pitch but I haven’t been able to confirm that yet) they also had two 10mm drive pins at 40mm on center.
Boy am I’m glad to see you taking this one on. I’m hoping to learn a little bit more and interested to see how the Schaublin does as well.
Always enjoy your videos, and I really appreciate your humble approach. You are going to love that boring and facing head though ! Looking forward to seeing its cameos in upcoming videos ! 😊
Thanks for the kind feedback Jason. Luckily the Narex shanks are all bolted on, so I dont have to do any hard turning on that side.
Welp I did buy sort of buy accident RockTec 65 tooling, was quite surprised on how much it didn't care to cut HSS steel..
I wonder though on how crazy the cuts can go actually. Does the schaublin not have any cooling? I think that would go better in terms of thermal schock.
I thought hard turning is always done dry, to prevent thermal shocking the CBN insert.
@@RotarySMP Seems like CBN can be used with coolant but makes almost no diff. For Ceramics which is apparently preferred they say no coolant.
If you set up the system to drive the spindle.0.at-speed pin then G1 moves won't start until the spindle is up to speed.
Hi Andy, when I was editing, it occurred to me that there would probably be a solution like that. I need to look into that.
when hardturning with a cbn tool never ever use liquid coolin on them at all. max use some air
and its not just with hard turning that you make plasma deformation but you actually do that with every metal machinigh operation ( even grinding. we where tought that by seco back in school when i took the education as a machinest )
also there is a roughing technice that i developed. tested and used myself witch extended the inser corner life from 4 parts pr corner to more then 25 parts pr. coner with the same feed's and speed's witch i call "constant varying depth" it casly have to be hand programmed ( at least for now ) but it is super effective to increase the tool/corner life of the roughing insert
eks.
N300
G28 V0U0
G28 W0
G40G18G80
T0202M91
G54
G96M3S100P11
G50S1500
M28
G0 Z0.2
G0 X50.
G1 X-1.6 F0.18
G1 0.3 X1.0
G0Z0.5
G0 X45.
G1 X47.0Z-12. F0.25
G1 X45.0 Z-22.
G1 X47.0 Z-29.7
G1 X50.0 Z-29.6
G0 Z0.5
G0 X42.
G1 X44. Z-5.
G1 X42. Z-11.
G1 X44. Z-19.
G1 X42. Z-25.
G1 X44. Z-27.
G1 X42. Z-29.7
G1 X45. Z-29.6
G0 Z0.5
G0 X40.
G1 Z-30.0
G1 X50.
G0 Z0 X100
G28 V0U0
G28 W0
( the G28 just tells it to go in hope position and the "V" "U" and "W" is actual machine axis ( the W is for a Y axis btw ) you can just ignore the G28 ones ( took this from a program i made some time ago ) and also forget the P11 since it was specific for the citizen dual spindle tripple turret. witch allowed it to actually start turning the spindle and the M91 was to allow it to change over to the tool
try put the code into " ncviewer.com " set to lathe mode to see how it actually look and how it works
instead of letting it cut air why not just put in G4 x5 in before the first cut ? that way it would get up to full rpm before moveing ? ( G4 is a dwell command and the X value in the same line is how many seconds its dwelling for )
I have G4 P5 set in my PP when I use cam, but that conversational lathe macro doesn't work like that. I probably need to learn how to edit it's code.
@@RotarySMP sounds like a good idear. hope you also be able to use the code / methord i showed in my comment on a diffrent part. best of luck m8
if you want i could program a part for you if you want. if you do then just send me a mail
Page 11:40 do keep those HSS wool by your kitchen sink for your next tough scrubbing.
I'll try it on some basement part.
Great video Mark. I have recently acquired a Wohlhopter UPA 4 with an ANSI 4 / MT 4 taper arbor that I want to change. However mine does not appear to have a removable arbor like yours. Do you have any information about the UPA 4 that could help me?
Is there a hollow arbor with an allen key wrenching hex down inside it? If there is you need to turn it clockwise, as though tightening, to allow the differential screw to release.
Some of the earlier Wohlhaupter had non-removable arbors though. There is a video out there of a guy converting one.
At some point with the rotary broach, how does one go about accounting for the hole depth you're going to lose to the swarf(?) that's being compacted into the bottom of the hole? If I need x millimeters of hex key tool engagement (depth) in this bolt I'm making, and the tool is a y millimeter hex, what is the initial "x + z" hole depth I'm going to have to drill/bore?
I just give it about 50% more hole than I need. I dont have a lot of success with rotary broaching though.
For the hdmi splitter idea i recomend adding a wireless hdmi cable (about $35 usd on amazon), you may want to cut the ddc pin on the wireless transmitter as you dont want it fighting with the lcd panel to set the resolution (at least it was on the cheap splitters ive used, aparently more expensive ones have ddc priority so it would take the resolution from one port and just duplicate to the second port, that was just the cheapest powered splitter i was using that needed ddc cut)
Thanks for the tips.
what tips are those again sir? that is amazing and I do a lot of hard Stainless. it is very hard for me to cut on my mini[-lathe but those tips would work amazing!
They are CBN inserts, but they need a very rigid machine. I doubt they will work on the minilathe.
It looked as though a laser was cutting it.😁
Hi Ken, yeah it is an unusual process. I turned off the room light to accentuate the contrast.
I've turned HSS on my Smart & Brown lathe. Not something I need to do often but carbide inserts did it with no real issue. I can't remember what I needed to do it for as it was some time back.
Did you wear out the inserts pretty fast?
@@RotarySMP I can't remember but I think I used the sharp polished and ground inserts that are designed for aluminium alloys. I have found they work well on stainless steels. I was looking for a picture of what I did to try to remember what it was for, I think I have one somewhere. Edit, I found the photo. I wanted to make a small gear cutter and needed to neck down a short part of the shank to leave the end to be shaped for the gear cutter.
@@martinconnelly1473 Was it a commercial HSS cutter? Many are not HSS blanks. They often friction weld conventional steel shanks to drills etc, to not waste HSS on the bit that doesnt need it.
@@RotarySMP It was a HSS blank. Not just part HSS. My lathe weighs 750kg so it is not a lightweight hobby lathe.
Can you not put a G04 in there before the machine picks up the G01? (To allow the spindle to get to speed. Maybe a 5 second dwell?)
Yeah, I have that programmed into my PP for spindle starts, but those lathe macros are different.
How concerned are you about hardened swarf on the lathe ways and such?
Not really. It sort of stuck together into that steel wool, and I have way wipers and a central oiling system, and wipe down after use.
11:36 HS Steel Pot Scrubbers? Test it, market it, make Vienna the hub of innovation!
But with the 1micron accurate Schäublin just chuck up the pot and remove the stuck food without damaging the pot? 😎
Yeah, I would probably forget to remove the handle :)
Does Linux CNC have a MDI mode where you can execute single lines of code. If so something like S3000 M02 could pre start the spindle and the real program would not be accelerating the spindle at program start. You could get real fancy adding the spindle speed and start to the main program along with an optional stop. BTW The Chinese make a direct copy of the Narex so that may be an option for a cheaper arbour. (toolmaster from Hare & Forbes here in Aus and Unzud
Hi Rob. Yes, there is an MDI mode, and I also have my PP set to add a pause (G4 P5) after each program start when I program a part, but those lathe macros are a bit different.
I could probably still buy a Narex shank, but now have the material to make my own.
Is "hard as buggery" a NZ standard?
Yep, that is how we describe things.
The Narex is a great tool to have
I look forward to having it mounted.
I turn die punches (60 HRC) with CBN, it's a lot faster than cylindrical grinding.
I bet. What machine?
I use Winho lathe with ER collet chuck inside a 4 jaw chuck
Wouldn't it be easier to buy sk40 holder with thread 1 1/2" for boring heads and turn new diameter and thread as is in Narex? To match with drive slots you can use shims or turn exact lenght.
How do you pull it up onto the drive keys without a differential thread stud.
I do have that one SK40 shank I showed, but chucking it would be pita, as would trying to hard turn an internal thread in hardened steel, so it will be easier to just make a new one.
I mean to cut external thread M28x1,5 directly on sk40 abor.
@@user-mr3ky3uy1d I got that, but you need the drive lugs to resist the torque, and therefore need the differential screw.
Say I just picked up an Alexander precision grinder 2CGD and restored it. Is it worth anything and where should I try to sell it? Nice finish from such a fractured diamond...
I have no idea where you are Ray, but the Alexander is a license made Deckel S0 single lip engraving tool grinder. They are a lovely machine, for that job. Not really a universal T&C grinder, although there are people who do amazing things with them.
@@RotarySMP Im just south of Pittsburgh,Pa. It is very well made. I have no use for it at all but my sons company was going to toss it in the dumpster. Im sure someone would put it to good use. Thanks...
@@rayclark7963 I have no idea what they are worth in the US, but the orginal Deckels are rarely listed for under €1000 over here, and the Alexanders are just as well made. The Chinese knock off's normally fetch over €500. As always it depends on condition and tooling.
@@RotarySMP Thanks for your help..
@@rayclark7963 Good for you, saving the grinder from the trash! They are nicely made machines. With a bit of patience, I think you’ll find a buyer 👍
Man, when I saw the thumbnail I thought you'd been having fun with a photo editor. But... nope. Very dramatic watching that inferno come off the part.
Yeah, although I did lower the shop lights.
👍😎👍
Hi Joel. Thanks.
You didn't seem to be breaking any chips. Is that because the CBN inserts don't have any chip breaking geometry, or because you were taking too light of a cut? Maybe flat top geometry is the proper chip breaking shape for HSS turning, or hard turning in general. Just curious about what sort of chip should be created with CBN. Thanks for the content!
I dont think you ever get chip formation with hard turning. The part plasticizes ahead of the CBN insert. It doens't really matter that the swarf builds up, as the part is HRC 64+, and wont get scratched, and the fine wool is soft enough to not get jammed.
All of the heat never goes out with the chips. Most of it could
Yeah, it mostly does.
The link for stefano is truncated. Can you repost?
Thanks for letting me know. Is it better now?
@@RotarySMP That worked!
About the Slowmo Flickering...
You edit your Videos with Davinci right?
Give it one or two passes of the 'De-Flickering' Filter and it should be good to go
Thanks for the tip
Just use G4 P5 after M3, much more elegant.
I have that coded into my PP, but using the lathe macros doesn't call it.
You kept saying HARD and RIGID that I wanted to make a joke,
but I thought that would be a bit limp
Good one :)
Humanity must attack bottlenecks - such as inventing how to cheaply produce cubic boron nitride inserts.
They are already pretty cheap when you consider that they can do.
Quite the opposite of cool, but cool footage non the less!
True, but it is surprising how well the heat goes out in the chips and the part stay cool.
If only there were machines for finishing hard materials to fine tolerances. They should build lathes with, like, an angle grinder attached to it, and call them round grinders, or something
Lathes with the right material and inserts can achieve finishes as good as grinding.
@@steveggca it turned with a taper as the part deflected. There is less chance of that happening on a cylindrical grinder, that's why they exist. Oh yeah
@@JSmith19858 Hi J. Mark and I had a bit of a discussion on the live stream video about the possibility of the headstock not
being in alignment . Given that the spring pass had little effect on the taper Lathe bed levelness and headstock missalignment
will of course also cause tapers.
My own Instinct and experience is that cutting forces were not the cause.
Of course all of this is speculation and needs to be confirmed.
@@steveggca then turn it between centres and adjust the tailstock to remove the taper. Or, use the correct tool for the correct job. There is a reason why grinders exist and are set up the way they are. Lathes aren't for sub micron work and there are other methods for achieving closer tolerances
I dont have the space or work for a cylindrical grinder, and didn't have time to drive out and see my mate who does. Then again, I was given the HSS-E blanks and the CBN tool, so I was really curious to try this.
This didn't need to be sub micron. Just a decent fit into the rotary broach tool. As Steve identified, the problem with the taper may well be that I have not yet levelled the lathe, it is on wooden blocks, so I may have a twist there.
I don't think breathing all the cobalt is super healthy, use a vacuum with filter or wear a respirator.
I do bother when grinding it. I hadn't considered that it could set free airborne particles during turning.
@@RotarySMP if you're unlucky, even the sun can get you. Always good to be a bit more careful.