NEWAUDIO Injection Molded Vinyl Record Are Here! Listen to One and Compare to a "Standard" Pressing
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- čas přidán 11. 09. 2024
- REVISED AUDIO! I'm truly sorry that a software glitch either with my Lynx HiLo A/D converter or its compatibility with the Vinyl Studio program I use to manage vinyl recording caused the recording to switch from direct through HiLo to the computer's microphone! That's never before happened so I didn't notice. This REVISED video contains DIRECT recordings done using a different older computer that worked fine. Truly sorry about that!
The German company Sonopress last year announced that it was developing an injection molded vinyl record production process, calling the resulting record an "EcoRecord". The environmentally friendly process is similar to how optical media like laserdiscs, CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray discs are manufactured (Sonopress developed 4K Ultra HD Blu-ray technology).
With optical disc popularity giving way to streaming its both ironic and sensible for the company to re-imagine its technology in service of vinyl- the sole disc growth market.
This year Sonopress rolled out EcoRecords, with an order from Warner Music Group for a Liam Gallagher and John Squire release. Numerous orders have rolled in for EcoRecords, which are pressed using recylable PET (polyethylene terephthalate) instead of PVC.
I got ahold of a Kylie Minogue record pressed both hydraulically and injection molded. It's hardly the kind of music that will allow you to really hear any major sonic differences, but minor ones are interesting. No guessing games here: the first one is hydraulic, the second is injection molded.
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Yeah, PET is what they use for disposable plastic soda bottles, and they used injection molding for polystyrene 45s back in the '60s. As for the music, I usually don't care for comparisons like this on CZcams and often can't tell any difference, but I could in this case. To me the first seemed harsh, while the second was smoother and more pleasant. I wonder how the PET affects wear on a stylus?
I also preferred the second, and for the same reasons, smoother and more pleasant to the ear.
I’m super intrigued Michael … as a technophile and an audiophile, I think it’s incredible to think that there is a “better” way to make the Records we love so much …. Keep updating us on your thoughts on this matter - Northern New Jersey loves you :)
Well, you remember styrene 45s?? Same process, and sounds like similar material used
Styrene wears faster , so I wonder if we'll see the same with P.E.T.
@@djhrecordhound4391 PET and Polystyrene are completely different.
@@anthonysmith4449 Totally agree! I'm a Canadian 45 collector near the border, so US styrene is big a craw in my foot.
@@djhrecordhound4391 Columbia and others did LPs in Styrene as far back as the '50s, too. Styrene records not only wear in a catastrophic fashion once the stylus wears through the glossy layer and into the hissy, rough substrate but have a nasty habit of cracking from the hole to the edge if mishandled (where Vinyl would simply bend).
Michael thanks for presenting this comparison. It was difficult to notice a difference. I think the nature of the electronically processed music negated any sonic difference.
The 1st one sounded immaculate! 2nd one sounded akin to a brickwalled mastered cd dubbed to vinyl for a cheap/bootleg reissue. Really curious to find out which one is which!
In case nobody noticed: This is still no all direct-feed. The Mic-sound is now also present and mixed with the direct feed. Please check that out Michael.
Much more weight and presence on sample 1; sample 2 is quite bright and thin by comparison. Sonics aside, the fact that the plant chose this this beat-matched, auto-tuned, vocoded pop cash-grab for the demonstration tells me everything I need to know.
On a cell phone I realized that the 1st record had much more Dynamic range & sizzling stereo presence along with a much fuller sound.
The second record reminded me of a micro SD card rendering. Very Flat Sounding, lack luster Dynamics & Very Tinny Sounding...😊
Thank you for revising this video. Sound quality wise the first record sounded a little louder with strong bass. The second record overall level was a tad lower, but it was more revealing on the high end. If the PET is less prone to warp or wear, I'm all for it. I guess time will tell! Thanks again for posting this!
If you loved styrene 45s, then you'll love these new records
(Pardon my sarcasm--styrene grooves could be destroyed with one play of a bad stylus, and were mold-injected.)
I thought you had gone senile with your last upload. Phew! Also, the first one is superior. In my humble opinion.
doesn't mean I haven't! But wow, I was able to replicate the problem. It all looked fine until I hit "record" and then it disconnected the Lynx HiLo and went to the microphone. You can't see this directly as you hit record but I had another way to look. Really bummed it happened here..
2nd sample: slightly brighter, less mistracking on the "s" of the vocal (perhaps even none),
but there were random bursts of rhythmic noise or (centered, not just one channel) non-fill as well. So, better and a tiny bit worse simultaneously.
I could live with the second pressing and not return it because the treble is so clear.
I liked the second playback, though they were close. It was more interesting for me to view the ceiling lights move on both records as they are not perfectly flat.
There is an elephant in the room: what is the process of cutting the grooves into the steal mold? On regular molds it is done using CNC computer controled diamond head cutter. This means that the a 3d negative model of the analog groove is generated by software using a huge data file that contains 3d coordinates with the resolution of apx 10's of micro meter. The bottom line: An AAA recording is not a possibility this technology can offer. ( it may be superior to analog vinyl process but must use a digital mechanical master)
The injection moulded record sounds like a noisy CD.
Pressed vinyl is quiet, warm and full. Hopefully this new process doesn’t catch on otherwise I’ll go back to CD’s.
What effect does this new material have on the stylus??
1st record: 3:13
2nd record: 6:11 (this when it switches from room audio to direct audio)
To me, the pressed record feels subtly more comfortable, pleasing, and enjoyable to listen to. (But maybe to different ears or on different equipment the opposite would seem to be true.) It's also possible the injected one might have had slightly more noise (crackling etc.), which could be static differences in the materials, but could also be random chance. But the injection molded record still seems quite faithful and not particularly noisy. It's a subtle enough difference that many people wouldn't notice any difference on most releases, and the difference might not even be one of "accuracy" (it's possible the injection molded one is actually more "accurate").
Suffice it to say that the injection molding for LPs is definitely a technology worth further developing and commercializing if it results in less environmental damage and lower costs. But I can see vinyl purists still preferring pressed PVC records if these differences, as subtle as they are, persist.
I would say in some ways the differences mirror what people say about DMM vs lacquer cutting, but I've generally liked DMM better, so I think it's not quite the same difference.
As I understand DMM is not good at deep bass. I thought it sounded great back when it was around for classical and acoustic music but it seems no cutting houses are interested in it these days and DMM-specific lathes are being converted to laquer cutting duty.
@@kenheitmueller69 Yes it seems weird since I have really liked the sound of DMM records I've heard, generally better than equivalent lacquer cuts of the same albums (even for rock and hard rock, not just classical). I believe only a few mastering studios and pressing plants in Europe still have DMM lathes. There's nowhere in the US you can go to get DMM vinyl mastering (except when they send the work out to Europe).
But in this case I do like the sound of the pressed PVC considerably better than the injection-molded version, and I'm wondering if it's the different pliability of the material or something.
That is interesting. I can hear a difference in the Treble and Bass... Thank you for sharing.
The injection molded version seems to be noisier than the traditional pressing. I hear more ticks on the second than the first. Is it that there is more static on the PET formulation?
Two problems - (1) The compression on You Tube makes it hard to find the small details differentiating between the two recordings and (2) This type of music is not really geared towards audiophile quality. It's all electronic. I would have appreciated a rock record or even a Jazz or Blues piece. But I guess this is all that is available for Michael at this time (@03:14 "I didn't choose the music") . I hope to see more videos like this comparing pressings in the near future. At this time, I don't have enough information to offer an opinion.
Unrelated but, Michael, I've been thinking about your comedy record and watching this video thought "I wonder if I'll ever run across a copy of it in the wild" well, today was the day, I found "I Can Take a Joke" in a dollar bin in Bushwick Brooklyn. I may need to digitize it from my $500k turntable for a "sonic demonstration".
I noticed that the 2nd record (the cloudy one -presumably the PET pressing) was noisier but i'm wondering if that was just a cleanliness thing based on different handling during production. I'm also curious if the metal parts used in production need to be different because of a different pressing process which could account for noise and fidelity differences. Finally, at least for me (I pay for YT Prime) the stream sounded like a really bandwidth-limited bitrate with those slimy, silvery sounding treble artifacts that tend to obscure treble details which is where i'd expect to hear differences. Having said that, I think the first one sounds better but that could just be because the pressing looks nicer to me.
I am afraid injection molded has still a long way to go, you even hear more surface noise, and crackling
I think this is someone trying to revive polystyrene (like the crappy 45s from CBS in the USA). They were mold-injected too
@@djhrecordhound4391 PET is pretty different from poly styrene. They can both be produced in different hardnesses and stuff. so I don't know
@@weatheranddarkness The process itself requires a very malleable material that will harden and remain that way. Polystyrene never hardened to withstand one play with a bad stylus.
Where does it state that PET has corrected this major flaw?
The 1st LP sounds better IMO. 1st LP sounds smoother and pleasing. 😉🤔🤔
yeah right, and you imagined all this via google compressed lossy digital stream?
you will fail a blind A/B test
I think the 2nd is a flatter response to the first, but detailed, maybe softer. If the volume was at the same level, that's interesting.
1st record is brighter, a bit more dynamic and much quieter. Clear preference.
Second record sounded like your typical bad GZ Media pressing to me (but watch it be the injection molded, haha). But the weird thing is that it also sounds more… tinny? Thin? Weird? Weird.
Crisper treble but the same bass is what I detected on headphones.
I’m totally picturing Micheal dancing to Kylie Minogue behind the camera 😂
Cheaper to make, better for the environment but will still be the same price as vinyl in the shops no doubt. Has anyone studied the longevity and wear on this plastic? probably not. I can't believe that making vinyl records is going to destroy the planet, it hasn't yet.
Do you have the matrix numbers, looking on discogs I can’t see any way of telling which is which?
I think who ever is listening to to this music would care less, but I think the first record is the one I prefer (if I listened to this artist)
I have already heard one of these as a recent Mozz live lp was pressed on this new eco vinyl. To be honest i really didn’t much difference on that release. However on this demonstration I do hear a bit more noise maybe a little less sharp.
Interesting and im sure the technology will improve over time.
No it won't improve. "Eco-vinyl" is just rebranding polystyrene. If you had those ultra-light CBS 45s from the USA, you get what I mean
I purchased Mozz's "Beethoven Was Deaf" LP on eco vinyl too - mine played wth no quality issues - but it lacked dynamics as it seemed to be cut a lot quieter - sounded flat.
The 2nd record has a very loud noise floor and weaker bass. Is that the injection moulded one? If so no thanks. I also noticed one disc was hazier than the other visually... Was that the injection moulded one?
there was alot more pops and clicks on the second one ..i like the first one better
Second is the IM.
Set up a poll on the Community tab of the page and put it to a blind vote. Whatever the 1st one was, sounded best to me.
I don't know witch is witch but I prefer the first ......
The first is a traditional pressed vinyl. Michael commented on this on his web site couple days ago.
Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.
Why is there needle crackle/surface noise at 3:15 when the stylus doesn't even contact the record until 3:18?
I agree that the second LP sounds compressed with worse dynamics than the first; makes me wonder if they used a different master for the second.
1:37 Could be the lighting, but the one on the left looks more cloudy and opaque than the one on the right
Audio - this revised upload makes them harder to distinguish between; now the first disc is the better listening experience IMHO
I have listened to this multiple times now. This is a style of music I do listen to and purchase I have heard it with the original microphone recording and now the direct feed. In both instances I hear more detail in the molded version. However I also hear more surface noise in the molded version. This has left me with even more questions, is the mastering and plating process any different between the two? What are the wear properties? How does it handle heat? Will this reduce the cost of records?
interesting experiment you are running . Now the first record sounds better .
Did you notice a difference Mike?
Many thanks Michael ✌️
Recording 1: More "airy" giving the sensation of a live performance. Masks the harshness of the high frequencies. The base is mellowed down. All in all more smooth, less organic but more enjoyable.
Recording 2: Stronger base. The harshness of the high frequencies is revealed. More realistic vocals but less enjoyable.
My feelings exactly I found record 1 more comfortable, pleasing, and enjoyable to listen to, whether or not it was more accurate.
So recording 2 is just like those cruddy polystyrene 45s...made the exact same way, and could be destroyed by one play with a bad needle.
The ultimate goal is superior sound quality. If a cheaply made record doesn't retain the fidelity or exceed it then it's still expensive in other ways. Too bad it's impossible to hear real world results on youtube.
My question is, will the injection records hold up to repeated plays or will it be like the dreaded "styrene" that was used on some LPs but mostly 7 inch singles? Those records always sound like a fuzz-fest of crappy treble.
I think PET is rebranded polystyrene, so I won't go near it if I can avoid it.
Wow, that's amazing!
Question is how does it hold up over time a lot of plastics can degrade with time!?
Why didn't they do this process years ago when they made picture discs why leave it till now?
Can you clean the records in the conventional way with alcohol does any alcohols affect the plastic?
The second one sounds a bit more open and more forward in the mid range. That's the injected moulding one I believe!
Not my type of artist, but 1st play wins for me. The 5kHz - 8kHz sibilance region (the 'F' in "...Fun to me" and 'S' in "...Somebody... I know") is REMARKABLE. I won't wager for money, but I would guess that the 1st play is the injection due to 300 tons involved in injection molding - However I know nothing of the physical properties of PET, so perhaps tonnage isn't relevant in the same manner as when using a PVC medium.
Does this mean that PET Polyethylene terephthalate will be called 'ethelenes' when PVC Polyvinvil chloride is called 'vinyl'? 🤣
My concern is vinyl rot with injection molded LP's similar to CD rot. There are LPs over a hundred years old that still play normally so I really think this is the biggest concern and is a no go imo.
CD "rot" is related to oxidation of the metallic layer in a CD, that is not something that is part of a record so it would not be an issue.
First record sounded best to me. More dynamic range, clearer instruments, synth bass sounded crisper.
What's the impact on the environment making PET?
so you can't hear the needle drop on the injection molded one .. ? does that indicate lower high frequency response of the material or something else?
I think its just a timing issue in the editing for the changeover to the direct feed audio.
1st one sounded better, had much less surface noise. I purchased a couple of injection molded lps last spring and found them both to have alot of surface noise. I did like the flatter outer lead in edge though. They have more work to do on the surface noise issue before Id buy any more.
sounds better on Tidal to my ears - bass is too woolly / over extended on disc 1, and weak in upper bass frequencies / fine in lower on disc 2
1st one is much quieter. More forward midrange. Sounds more compressed to me.
2nd one is very noisy. Brand new and already down to VG. less midrange, more dynamic.
If I had to choose, I'd take the first one.
Having listened through a decent pair of speakers, the first one pretty clearly out paces the second, which seems to have a more brittle, tinny sound to it
I would venture a guess which is which without even listening. The 1st record is less flat and there is more side to side motion indicating the center hole is off center. Therefore record 1 is vinyl and number 2 is injection molded PET.
Michael stated this on his website couple days ago.
@@drazenbabich You seem to have missed the point of my post which was that Injection mold PET records have better flatness and concentricity than vinyl records.
@@brianmiller9932I didn’t miss anything of that sort. Just stated the fact Mike had told us which is which.
The first record sounds better. Injection moulded shouldn't change or compromise the sound quality right?
Great / very interesting Vid. First off, music is so bad.... Lol but also makes it a little hard to judge right off for me anyway !? but for me, the second record did sound a little clearer ?!?
I wish it had been a Pink Floyd track, would or might have made it better to judge, again for me ! and definitely so much nicer to try an judge😅
Anyway, im going to stick with 1st being the injection... 2nd record being the norm...
for me, sounding cleaner ?!?
Great fun you left it on a cliff hanging.... Lol 😅 Thanks
The second record was definitely noisier than the first. As for the sonics of the music, a more interesting comparison would be both records compared to the master used to make them.
So how long before someone works out how to make a record using a 3D printer?
Record 1. Another demo with superior source material would be nice. KM could do so much better IMO.
Not calling them 'vinyls' is another bonus. It's good that they sound the same.
They sound nothing of the sort.
@@andrewlittleboy8532 on my system, there is no difference. It's near field KRK monitors with 2 subs and room corrected, in a treated room, so I'm pretty confident that they sounded the same. The only observation I can offer is from my own experience. So I'm not arguing with your experience.
More surface noise on the second
Which should in reality be opposite since the second was the IM. So the IM records have still a long way to go before the hits mainstream.
@03:20 - Standard @06:13 Injection Molded.
Hah ok on the first video I thought I was going nuts bc on my mastering system here I could clearly hear the 1st LP was the one I preferred yet everyone was choosing the 2nd... now yall hear it too. Whew!
Same. I immediately thought the first lp was better.
i thought the first one sounded much better. fuller , more highs and lows.
The bass is articulated better on the second LP there's more depth
Mike, I'm listening to this on a Samsung Galaxy S23+ phone and is hard to hear the difference since these phones don't reproduce the full spectrum of sound. 20 to 20K. If I had to choose, the 1st record sound good. Can you tell us which was what?
Though after listening to these two records several times I'll say first record is the pressed vinyl and the second is injected mold record. Was I right Mike?
You are right.
Min-owg. Not min-og!
Does the new material cause groove wear from the stylus or cause stylus wear. The material used for molding is not that different from pressing ; other than one is more liquid liquid and one isn’t.
If you liked polystyrene 45s, where one play with a bad stylus destroyed the groove, then you'll love these new records (I guess...)
The 2nd record ( garbage) annoying surface pops, mix sounds very flat and the vocals are brash. No contest, and I’m hearing this from my tv. Must sound so bad 😂😂
Garbage is probably right. I think PET is polystyrene, and the manufacturer is trying to rebrand 'crap' with 'poop' lol
Absolutely right!
I would not judge this based on what you hear from TV speakers, they are going to emphasize the midrange, so a recording that has more detail throughout the range may sound worse when played back on a sub standard audio setup.
@@SupraWessounds crap, even worse through the hifi.
@@SupraWes Having been a 45 collector for decades, and having heard them on the best and worst systems alike, I don't need to listen to the demo on a better system to tell its differences.
The process itself requires a material soft enough to inject, and polystyrene never fully hardened afterwards, which is why it could be destroyed by one play with a bad/misaligned stylus. If those ticks you're hearing is not dust, it's the malleable material already being damaged by regular playing.
Nr 1 wins, easily.
What? no take from you? I cannot make a reasonable pick listening through a computer, stop the suspense - what do you think Michael??
What would Rick Beato think?
Let's leave injection molding to the 1s and the 0s, where in-between shadows of grey don't count. 😉 And let's compensate for vinyl pressing by planting trees. For the sake of the vinyl community!
@MarcoRistuccia What does it matter with such crap. That's music? Oh my, the soundstage, the resolution, the detail, the holographic image, the depth of the soundstage. Crap is crap. Does it matter what it's pressed into? I'm with you on analog sound but this recording is a waste of time and money.
both sound good so I would buy the cheaper one :)
I’d rather buy the cd in that case. Not interested in cheaper records for poor performance.
throwaway pop music on throwaway format - green my arse that's a scam tag line. I'm not against the injection idea though , if it's used for low value low priced modern elevator musick - nothing against that idea or the old 'pop up' record your own record spots like days of old and ability to mold them up on the spot.. that would be great to see for limited releases..but not counting on it for virgin vinyl results - but prove me to be misguided in time?
10 days later: which one is which ??? 🤷♂️
You can hear it through a tv
The best way is probably through your car audio system , that was pretty blatant
Sounds crappy indeed. Just concerned about how we can separate these from the traditionally pressed ones. I looked for this on discogs and could only find one orange Lp listing, nothing about the eco ones?
I used 4:08 and 7:01 to compare 1:1.
ignoring surface noise the injection molded copy sounds soft not as punchy to my ears
There’s no information given if the matrix information is identical between both discs. Regardless, injection molded records already happened decades ago and they sucked. The material was worse than vinyl in every respect.
The only thing i can ascertain from this CZcams video is that the 2nd sample has increased surface noise and the audio content already sounds grooveworn - very reminiscent of cheap American polystyrene pressings from the 70’s.
Unfortunately there’s also some trickery here as the surface noise of the records starts before the stylus even touches the record, and the audio still appears to be mixed with off-mic room noise. I can’t draw any conclusions from this regarding the true sonic properties of this material so I’ll wait until someone sends me similar samples i can test and draw conclusions from myself.
Same as the previous vid; pressed version is slightly brighter with a tad more of a bloated bottom end and the injected cut is tighter in the low end and ever so slightly subdued highs. The differences are small, but there.
...prefer the second. It sounds like vinyl for me.
What would Jesus do? Oh, let's not bring him into it! Lol
The second one sounded terrible. If this is the future then I want no part of it!
Won’t buy any of these! I certainly don’t see a long lifespan from plant based plastics. I guess the eco warrior market they’re appealing to don’t really care if they decompose after 15-20 years anyway as they most likely don’t even play the records. Certainly polythene bags seem to fall apart after several years stuffed in a cupboard or drawer! The old styrofoam singles can’t even be played with a micro line stylus for example.
Will be checking every Lp I buy now from mid 2024 to check the method of manufacture.
Personally, I think the manufacturer is trying to rebrand polystyrene as this "PET", so no thanks and no way.
Interestingly the sound from recording 2 and not recording 1 is identical to the digital version here on CZcams: czcams.com/video/p6Cnazi_Fi0/video.html
There are pops and clicks on both records here so can’t see how that’s the case.
1st is better
I think 'Min-oh-guh' as in vogue... Neither cut sounds very good. No preference.
No difference
That wasn’t my experience when playing it through my main system.
Finally truth, no differences, especially via youtube lossy compression
Fremer, could you be any more annoying? Asking for a friend.