Understanding the Fantasy - How to Shape a Game's Design - Extra Credits
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- čas přidán 16. 08. 2016
- The most important skill for a game designer is understanding the fantasy or player experience their game wants to deliver. Dig deep into the genre of the game, study both the best and worst examples from all media to understand why people love that genre, and then design visuals, story, and mechanics that make the most of that understanding.
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bit.ly/2bxK8Rv - Hry
"drill down", "and I'm not just using this as a metaphor".....goes on the explore this metaphor metaphorically
Oh good, I'm not the only one who found that odd.
he meant literally become Gurren Lagann.
KICK LINGUISTICS TO THE CURB AND LITERALIZE THE FIGURATIVE!!
Well he meant "and I'm not just using this as a metaphor" literally....
WITH YOUR DRILL, PIERCE THE HEAVENS!! That's a show that knew exactly what it wanted to be.
I think this would make a great subseries of the channel; where you take two games that are similar in style but drastically different in metacritic scores and examine just what went wrong with the game that's not being loved as much as the other, despite them being almost identical.
YES!
I have to agree. Much like their "Extra Credits - History Lessons" this would be a great way of breaking apart the history of genre's, or even specific themes. There are many that I would find interesting, but with the new Deus Ex game coming out and all the hype it's building up, I think it would be a decent idea to talk about how the series rates against other "exploring the human condition" games.... I can't think of any titles right now, but I know they're out there. After all, nolo novum sub sola est.
This is a great idea.
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"Please read Discworld"
The turtle moves.
Great series. Its funny, adventurous and has a down to earth yet larger than life kinda feel
This also applies to competitive multiplayer games, and I think a common problem is that developers don't always know how much to listen to players who are already invested in those games.
My go-to example for this is Chivalry: Medieval Warfare. The fantasy is fairly obvious, it's sword fighting with silly dismemberment, a combination of skilled play and chaos that allows everyone to have fun whether they chop off heads or get their own heads chopped off. However, as you get better at the game the gameplay stops resembling sword fighting. It becomes a mess of glitches, funky animations, and esoteric knowledge that makes high level gameplay not fulfill the fantasy the game initially promised.
Invested players who are already good at the game don't want anything to change, they enjoy this emergent gameplay for what it is. But other players who got good have left in frustration, and many more who wanted to get good became discouraged seeing the one amazing player on the server doing really dumb stuff to be effective like bending over backward to deliver a difficult to block attack. To these players, the fantasy of sword fighting is what drove them to get better, and getting better required them to abandon that fantasy.
What ended up happening is that frustrated Chivalry players ended up making their own hotly-anticipated game, Mordhau, whose entire selling point is being Chivalry but with the fantasy intact for high level play. This isn't to the exclusion of casual low-level play, there's still game modes with large player counts and heads being chopped off and silly voices, but the game's developer diaries and updates focus on showcasing how high level play resembles real-life swordfighting. Glitchy techniques that were required for Chivalry to have any depth are brought up and more "realistic" systems (they're quite keen on letting you know that their goal isn't 100% authenticity) are introduced as alternatives.
This isn't exclusive to Chivalry, of course. In Overwatch, there was controversy over a technique called ledge boosting being patched out. What it was was that a Genji player could dash into a ledge he could normally vault over with a wall climb and be launched clear across the map, but only if the Genji player could execute it perfectly. Even professional players couldn't always pull it off consistently, and it became a mark of skill. So, predictably, when it was patched out there was controversy in the competitive community as many players felt it was dumbing the game down for the sake of the casual audience. But Blizzard made this choice because needing to practice such an esoteric technique for a result that doesn't feel very ninja-like broke the fantasy of playing a cyborg ninja, it reduced the game into programming to be exploited.
I think this would be an interesting episode in itself, discussing how to handle feedback for competitive multiplayer games. As a player, I want to be able to give better feedback and better understand why that feedback sometimes seems to get ignored. For designers, I'd like to see more indie games be able to have good balance without it being turned into an overly niche thing effectively directed by a few vocal community members.
I'd love these guys to continue this subject!
After they do that Voice Acting video they promised!
Amen to both!
Amen to both!
I think I remember them saying that the voice acting episode is going to be saved to be their final episode
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austemousprime Hey man. I'm really sorry but I can't remember! It was either at a con or a q&a video (which they used to do more of in the past). It could also be both! I'm pretty sure I've heard them say it on two occasions. I don't recommend you trust some random person on the the internet's word, but I'm 99% sure I'm right! I suppose we can only hope then that that episode never comes.
I feel like this is _so_ important...yet so easy to screw up as well.
Mostly I think of *David Cage* when I think of developers who don't necessarily understand the genre they're trying to delve into for their video game.
i thought his problem is that he doesn't know how real humans talk
Eh, I'd argue even Kojima doesn't "get" how to write good dialogue :p
Dialogue is one thing, but...not understanding the genre of your video game is a _whole_ other thing.
Paradox Acres fair enough, kojima's real glaring flaw is that he'd downplay his own story simply to get some more sexy lady's on screen. well, in my opinion anyway
I mean it's pretty true solely based off of quiet's entire existence
David Cage doesn't even understand the _medium_ he's working in, let alone the genre.
Finally a real game design video. I mean that kind of videos are why I subscribed to this channel in the first place. Don't get me wrong - off topic and games u might not know are also interesting, but since there is only one video a week, I prefer to cut them to bare minimum.
i would love to seen a breakdown of bioshock, the feeling you get when playing that game is just so amazing and unique
Yes *please* do more of this! This is one of the reasons I play video games! To live the fantasy of being a hero, it just shifts on what kind of hero that is. For specific examples?
-Red Dead Redemption was *the* Western video game.
-The Batman Arkham series truly succeeding and making you feel like the caped crusader.
-Skyrim delivering on a number of fantasy sub-genres with both its world, mods, and character customization.
-The Bioware Old Republic Star Wars games really do let you explore and experience being a Jedi or Sith. (Or a number of other famous Star Wars roles in SWTOR)
-Assassin's Creed Black Flag was the pirate adventure I always dreamt of as a kid alongside the legends I read about.
-Lesser example but the first and second Kingdom Hearts delivered the fantasy of paling around with your favorite Disney characters and fighting Disney villains with a magic sword as a character designed as a target audience surrogate.
-Guitar Hero 3 at least for me, delivered on a very personal fantasy with the ending guitar battle against Lou. One of my favorite songs, remixed to my favorite genre, in a musical battle against the Devil.
If I could maybe pull both you guys at EC or here in the comments, what are some good martial arts fantasy games? Video games that really dive into the philosophy of the martial arts. I've always wanted to play a game version of something like Ip Man, Ong Bak, Rumble in the Bronx, or Return of the Dragon. A game where you are a master of Kung Fu (or another style, I'm just biased to Kung Fu as something I do in IRL) who can fight whole scores of guys on the way to fighting some singularly powerful or skilled opponent. Fighting games and beat 'em ups just aren't scratching that itch, at least not the ones I've played.
Nah.
- Sid Meier's Pirates! is the only true pirate game. (The Russian ones simply crash too much, Ass 4 didn't even get the basics right).
- Morrowind is everything Skyrim should have been - actual thought being chief among them.
- CoJ: Bound in Blood got the spirit of the revisionist western (and was not written by the Housers): czcams.com/video/NUcBmoTS7gg/video.html
Smygskytt #1 I'm allowed to have my emotions be valid to me. Those games delivered on the fantasy when I played them. I didn't play those games and I have no desire to.
Anthony Clay
To each his own then, its just that I'm still mad at the Houser Brothers over Max Payne 3.
As for AssCreed 4, The sailing is beyond retarded. You would think that sailing should be in some way related to the wind - Black Flag doesn't.
Smygskytt #1 You ire comes through in how you specifically mention Red Dead Redemption being written by them as a negative.
And it's *Assassin's Creed* 4. Some of us still very much like that series and that particular game.
I'm not making fun of the games you mentioned, I either know or suspect they're very good. I just don't wish to play them.
Look into Shenmue. Those games were amazing in their own right, but they actually go into eastern philosophies while the main character is slowly learning control and refining his mastery of a couple different arts (I believe the two focused on are actually Taijiquan and Shaolin Kung Fu, but it's been so long since I've played I can only remember certain moves.) You don't usually square off against more than a couple people at a time, but the fight system is still pretty responsive, even by today's standards.
Also you might try a game called Sleeping Dogs. it focuses more on the combat than the philosophy, but it's another one of those progressive mastery MMA games. (I can recognize Judo, Kali, Karate, and maybe a little bit of western kick-boxing.) The Yakuza series has crowds that you fight, but it never really goes into philosophy, just progressive mastery of physical fighting in an uncountable number of martial arts.
Add it to the stack!
and remember that the top of the stack resolves first :)
I think more will help current and future developers make better games, not just cookie cutter/same name bad concept "cough, cough COD IW, cough"
Man I miss playing Magic.
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I play and review JRPGs constantly. and while watching this video with a mind toward various RPGs I've played in the past you mentioned world vs personal fantasy. I was wondering if single-player JRPGs a la Dragon Quest or Persona 4 might offer something different, something like a group fantasy for instance? Rather than wanting to be one hero, maybe wanting to be a member of a group of heroes? This on the surface would seem to mesh well with the Japanese culture that favors cooperation and cohesion of a group, rather than the glorified super-soldier?
Thanks again for the great content, as always.
huh...
I rather like that idea of wanting to be apart of a group of heroes rather than one specific one
like wolverine is bad ass but I personally don't want to be wolverine I want to be an X-man
Subtle advertising ;)
The "nitty gritty" is often what I love about this channel. I'm not immediately sure what games I'd want to see you discuss, but just keep up the good work and we'll enjoy it.
Yes. PLEASE analyze a game. ANY GAME. I learn from examples more than anything.
I think many can agree that Ravenholm is the pinnacle of game mechanics intertwined with theme and environment
Nope. We don't go to Ravenholm.
anymore :P
+xtremetoxicguy
I disagree and instead think that Ravenloft meets that ideal.
ayy.
Yes
PLEASE do more on this! I usually feel after a video that I have a good grasp on at least the basics of the topic at hand, and can extrapolate or study further on my own. This time, however...I really feel like there's so much more to talk about and unpack and understand that, while I understood everything you said, I don't feel like I really "get" it; how it applies to specific aspects of the design process or (especially) how to apply it.
Thank you SO much for everything you guys do! I love it
I'd definitely like to see more on the subject! Hell, I'd like more of anything that involves you guys discussing or critiquing specific games. There isn't enough game criticism on CZcams by people who are actually involved in _making_ games!
Agreed. As the video highlights, specificity is critical here. In exploring these ideas, specific examples and case studies would be really, really helpful. We got one, with the bit on Dune. That was great. But I'd love to see a deeper exploration of a modern game. One that nails it, and one that struggles.
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The industry could certainly stand to heed ECs advice. Too bad the lot of em are too preoccupied with being stupid incompetent and lazy. or working for EA. or craptivision. or ubisuck. or microdick. or nintendope... or anything that isn't CD Projekt.
Might I suggest Rocksteady's Batman Simulator as the subject of that deeper exploration of a modern game you mentioned? They can even use Knight's failure at delivering the Batmobile as contrast.
Those games nail the 'you are the goddamn batman' fantasy like it's nobody's business.
I'd love to see a breakdown of the space opera theme. So much of it is inspired by Star Wars that I feel there needs to be more than just "look at Star Wars".
Also, THANK YOU FOR FINALLY DOING THE VIDEO I REQUESTED 3 YEARS AGO. :P
***** that's not what I mean. I understand that, but so many people today point to Star Wars as the typical "space opera".
How about the Mass Effect trilogy?
Check out star control 2. It's older than I am, but it's still very solid. pretty much any modern space opera game was influenced by it one way or another.
If you have a lot of spare time for it, check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes. It's old, and apparently the best space opera ever made. Haven't had time to watch it myself, but given the mention of Star Wars and space operas, I recalled this quote: "This is Star Wars. Lucas's franchise should be renamed to something else."
So yeah, probably worth a watch.
This is so relevant to No Man's Sky. Either they didn't understand the fantasy, or couldn't execute on it. The result is that we have a game that superficially looks like like the space sim we wanted, in some aspects, but doesn't actually feel that impressive or interesting as we would imagine exploring space to be.
Continue this. it was incredibly interesting
"The play of the game" *image of Reaper saying 'q' appears*
I love you for that kind of stuff x3 Very entertaining.
8:10 "crush your head", you are welcome.
And for the comment question, I would love to see that with no man's sky, because that game appearantly failed at giving people such a fantasy.
Well the game was MARKETED to be catering for a much less specific audience than it actually was so i wouldnt say failure as much as it was aiming too wide.
Like titanfall, marketed as BIG BEST THING OF EVER and when it came out people relized its just call of duty with big robots which is cool for people who like cod but thats not everyone.
Superdark33 maybe you're right, but I would still love to see it broken apart.
I don't think that's really the case. Most people just fell for they Hype train and Sean wasn't doing himself any favors by being as vague as possible. He tripped himself up on several occasions and back tracking that only made the downgrade of the finished project (not an uncommon thing, of course) much more noticeable and a bigger blow. People weren't disappointed in the fantasy so much as they were with the finished project compared to what they were expecting.
If anything it'd be a topic on transparency or managing expectations/hype.
If the game did more than what every other survival game was doing, and actually did less. Starbound does the same thing and allows you to influence and shape the world. NMS has the problem where simply put you're doing the same rythms of collect a thing, your roygbiv of color hazards that translate to "gather in x minutes", can't collect/poach animals, and so forth.
In summary it lacks the appeal of exploration games, the ability to discover something that you are a guest to. To leave your mark on the world.
With Titanfall they did a fatal mistake, not learning from CS:GO on how to keep your community alive, having a decent progression system, a story, cutscenes showing setpieces that you will never find in multiplayer, ads that said your titan is your shadow but you can't customize your titan, and ultimately now like other so called "COD killers" lost its hype and in turn lost a potentially huge and growing fanbase.
IMO... I'm loving no mans sky, tho I wasn't following its creation from the inception, so for me it just kinda fell onto my lap as an infinite exploration game. i can see how people were disappointed to build something up and not have it as they thought it was going to be, but the game that exists...for me... is quite special and I'm still finding it quite compelling, slowly discovering the story and learning the game universe.
Yes, please break down a specific game; your examples and advice in this episode were too vague for me to follow. (Maybe even break down one of the games mentioned in this video.)
For instance, I don't know what you mean at 7:28 when you say ARK "matches its mechanics and theming to the audience that will be most receptive to its fantasy". I thought you should 'know your audience' in order to better advertise to them. If not, then how is knowing your audience different from knowing your fantasy? And how specifically does knowing your fantasy improve the game? Does it lead to a better marriage of mechanics and theme? It sounds like it instead leads to slightly different mechanics and themes-to better match the most adored works in your sub-genre. And if so, then this really sounds like knowing your fantasy is identical to knowing what there is an audience for...
I believe the difference is mainly in the order of operations. Knowing your audience looks at the themes prevalent in what they love, and into the mechanics that build those themes. Knowing your fantasy is understanding how to build a set of themes with mechanics that present the desired aesthetic to your audience.
One could be considered "deconstruct and study" while the other is "putting the pieces together." If you want to build a proper fantasy, you need to know what fits into it. As was mentioned, some games are very good examples of the pieces fitting together, while others fail to truly make it feel immersive.
I could be wrong, and I could be misinterpreting, but that's what I understood to be the core of this video.
well learning tools/examples like Extra Credits can't really breakdown into specifics all the time.
Lets take you question about ARK. In this instance I think their intention might of been for tangential learning to happen and curious audience members like us would go and look into the game so we can learn for our selves oh it does what they say it does.
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I also would love to hear the breakdown of any game of your choosing. I think I understand the concepts, but I think examples might reveal things I missed.
+. How about making a new show (does need to be routine). Just like the Extra Frame show but talk about game design topic that James can share?
This is the best video you guys have made in awhile, would love to have a whole series on this.
"If you want more on this, please say so in the comments"
Yes please.
"The play of the game-" reaper pressing Q lmao so true, you gotta get the tea time spray tho
This is the first time I have ever seen someone comment about how edgy a nickname is. Mostly because most people realise the joke behind my nickname.
Yes please, do make that video, my thirst for knowledge can not be quenched.
This episode's art is probably the best out of all of them, so expressive :3
I think Persona 4 delivers what you're talking about on both fronts, as far as being both a 'personal' and 'world' fantasy is concerned. The fantasy/mundanity split in that game runs right through its core, and I think it'd be worth looking at as an analysis of 'delivering a specific fantasy.'
I can get behind this
I'd love to see you breakdown the fantasy behind Star Wars games. Why some Star Wars games are so great and others just fall flat when they all have the same fantasy, but don't have the same theme or mechanics. Why two games that are very similar in all things like Dark Forces 2 hits the mark when Force Unleashed doesn't. I think there are many good contrasts in just that IP.
"Please read Discworld."
RIP terry pratchet :(
GNU Terry Pratchett
He lives on in the clacks
GNU Terry Pratchett
Damn this has to be one of my favorite videos from you guys, great stuff!
Been waiting awhile for an Extra Credits episode which hits the mark about game development. Been a couple weeks since the last good one, and this one really hit the mark. You need to do many more episodes along the lines of this one!
Also, this was a concept which I felt like you should've touched on for a long time now. Extremely glad you did!
Really, the advice in this episode is true of any form of creativity. Know your audience, know what you're trying to give them, and know how the elements of what you're trying to give them are going to interact with each other. It's helpful regardless of whether you're writing a novel, a TV show, a movie, a video game, or even a song. It's at the core of creativity itself, quite frankly. If you don't know what you're delivering or how to frame it, you're not going to have a very successful effort on your hands.
I'd love to see something on why Fallout New Vegas seems to be far more beloved by hardcore fans of Fallout than 3 and 4. I fall into the camp that far prefers FNV, but I have a hard time enumerating it.
I suspect it falls into this theme and fantasy stuff.
Eh, Fallout New Vegas got to build upon the assets that were already created in F3, so New Vegas was simply able to add more polish to what was already good in F3.
+Hjernespreng the team behind it was also composed of some of the deva from fallout one and two
Yes, but people keep talking about New Vegas as if it was made from the bottom up, independently of F3.
Regardless of it being a different team, that team got to spend much more time of their efforts on polish and writing, whereas the F3 crew had to design it and every asset from scratch. And, as Extra Credits talked about in one of its very first videos, video game writing usually comes pretty late in development. But New Vegas got to spend much more time on it.
Mechanically, NV was a lot better. I'm pretty sure the reason many people (myself included) preferred FO3 was because comparing the two, NV's main story was just boring, and there's only so much brown one can look at before the surroundings just feel lazy. I mean, it all fit with the fact that it's a post apocalyptic came set somewhere that was pretty much a desert to begin with... But it was so BORING to look at.
New Vegas was much closer to the original fallout canon than Fallout 3 and 4. It was developed by many of the same people that worked on Fallout 1, 2 & Van Buren (Interplay's Fallout 3 that never was). When it comes to story and writing there's no contest, New Vegas is far superior due to the better dialogue and more meaningful choices. I'm sure Obsidian borrowed as many assets from Fallout 3 as Bethesda did from Oblivion so that argument is busted not to mention that Obsidian did it on a much tighter schedule (18 months vs 4 years).
Finally! An episode on actual Game Design, and a very cool one by the way. Thanks! We need more of that, so yeah I'd definitely love to see some more studies on that subject.
this is one of the most insightful videos you have made guys! i really hope you're gonna make more videos on this theme, and possibly cover the fantasy of games like Dark Souls, which is my favorite series of all times
Could you guys do a video about the fantasy of dark souls? I watched your videos, about it, thought it sounded interesting and gave it a try. I'm currently halfway through the second game and I love it. It's challenging but rewarding and the world is complex and beautiful. Thanks for all your hard work in making these videos!
Also vaati vidya has excellent summaries of the lore if needed.
I concur
+Noah Schleusener indeed he does.
They should do an Extra Frames episode on it.
Noah Schleusener Dark Souls 2 is considered the worst of the series.
More of EVERYTHING!
Take my money [stretch goals? second patreon for extra credits?], slash the production values [rough drafts, stock images, put it on the second channel?], but fill my brain with your ideas, and TONS of examples.
Pretty Please?
This is a lot to absorb. I have my work cut out for me. Thank you so much!
Please do more. This is a really important thing for me to learn.
Please continue this topic also I love these videos (I know some friends who want to be like graphic designers and stuff like that for videogames, so i send these to them too) so please make more! (Also great work and i'm a huge fan of your work)
im interested. Since your such Blizzard fanboys/girls you should look at how Blizzard delivered on Warcraft. highlighting the earlier versions of the game with the newer expansions - it gives greatexamples of success and failure in one game.
I would also like to see this
But only if it's _Warcraft 3_, please
i too am interested
Agreed, I look forward to the success of them delivering on my class fantasy in Legion. *sincerity*
Their sliding scale of "Fun to play" and "Immerses you in the world." The more they got rid of the arduous grinding and tedious searching, the more they got away from that sensation of "holy shit I recognize all of these places and characters from these RTSes that I loved to play".
I wanna see a part 2!
This is one of those things I've always been kinda aware of, but never thought about in depth. Please do more of this!
This is the best and most instructive video you have made in far too long. Thank you.
Why mention Ark and not explaining why it's so good at it? Anyways, great video.
please do the thing you said at the end! this seems like a very specific topic that not a lot of people are talking about, i would love to see what James has to say about it.
I would like a theme analysis of Banjo Kazooie. The deep, rich narrative demands scholarly analysis.
Please do a full breakdown of a specific game! It would be so helpful in fully understanding how to do what you describe in this video. I love you guys, keep making great stuff!
Break down any game ! would love to see this topic to be explored further ! And amazing work as always :D
Yes to the thing he said at the end!
Yes! Please read the Discworld novels!
I've been binge watching the "Designing Your Game" playlist. It's very well done, and it breaks everything down and makes it way less intimidating. I've also noticed that there are a couple episodes on the game, Hearthstone. As someone who makes games in my free time, I would love to see a few episodes on creating, balancing, publishing, and/or marketing a trading card game or a pen and paper role-playing game. Whether you take my suggestions or not, keep up the great work!
EC is one of the main reasons why i go on CZcams, so keep up the great work and best of luck for your channel (:
yes, please, please elaborate!
that's what makes fable iii so good imo, even though it gets so much hate - the fantasy is exploring a beautiful world as a powerful hero. the combat is fast and pretty easy, making you feel more powerful and skillful than everyone else, and the quests and Easter eggs are all designed to encourage you to experience Albion's grandeur
also - more more more!
Really?
Because for what I remember, not only is the level design pretty coridor-y, but every quest ask you to mindelessly follow the bright line the leads you right to your objective, effectively killing the need for exploration.
No to mention that later on, the combat doesn't exactly becomes exhilirating as it is pointless and tedious, since the game's understanding of a difficulty curve isn't "Throwing harder ennemies at you", but "Throw more of the same ennemy at you".
So the late game is filled with random encounters with dozens of werewolf that have a shit ton of damage, yet do almost nothing to you, aside from causing tons of lag because the game struggles to render all these ennemies at once.
I'd like to present a counterargument, my good man. I think the reason Fable 3 fell flat is because it didn't understand the fantasy it was presenting. Fable's 1 and 2 understood how to keep a balance between comedic charm and serious storytelling in a fantasy world that was. despite the surface, actually pretty dark and brutal. Fable 3 becam a parody of itself and the fantasy genre, which didn't click with the rest of the franchise. It tried to be too many things at once and ultimately couldn't live up to its own clout.
I always felt the 3th game was a perfect example of more is less, everything the 2nd game did well they simplified and stretched thin. I liked fable 2, not as much as the first one, but even though they changed the mechanics around and ultimately only had like 2 spells that weren't just a reskin of fireball/enflame they also build upon the world which the 3 failed at.
You still had a great sense of it being your hero's story, the 3th was there hero's story a bland hero. Sure you could reskin all you wanted, but there were pretty much only, generously said a handful of play styles and the road to rule was one the worst level system ever conceived.
The entire Fable series was a very specific attempt to cater to a very specific aspect of roleplaying game fantasy. What was the original name of the project?
I would love more on fantasy design and a breakdown of a game. I love to take what you guys say about game design and apply it to my Pathfinder campaigns, so these that focus on fantasy are my favorite. You guys do great work, I've been watching for years. I love Extra History too!!
Yes, please do an episode or series on this!
Tai Lopez: Here in my backyard, with my pool... Skip Ad >|
lol. got the same ad
I got a different guy with the same schtick. Some Australian tool talking about how having a web business lets him go snorkelling all the time or some other rubbish.
There are adds on the videos?
I'd love to see the breakdown of either Fallout or The Elder Scrolls games.
I would ABSOLUTELY LOVE it if you guys delved deeper into this subject. As you said in the video, specificity is key.
I have Asperger's which, TLDR, means we get overly specific with just about everything. It's great to hear other people saying this could be a useful talent, as I've always believed so!
This video was really helpful, got me thinking about a lot of things I over looked about the theme of my game.
If you do one day approach this topic again, Chose something well-known please so I can not only get a clearer picture but something like Mass Effect is still really accessible
A break down of Dwarf fortress and Life is Strange PLZ! Thank you!
Holy crap. That may be one of your best episodes yet.
please continue this. I really feel that this would be an interesting topic and that I wouldn't love to learn more about it.
Do you think you could break down the fantasy of Portal?
"Now you are thinking with portals"
Will there be cake?
Rebellion against the system? Na... not quite, but you got me thinking here!
Hey extra credits can you make a video on text based games?
In response to the end of the video! YES! Please OMG, I would love for you to go on. I've watched this channel for almost two years now and I've started designing a somewhat different type of game than you all do, but these videos honestly help me keep my center when doing brain storm sessions with my creative team. Please make a sequel vid.
YES YES YES! More of this PLEASE! This is even useful to me as a D&D Dungeon Master!
Just this video gave me ideas!
James,
Add it to the stack.
Sincerely,
Me
Yeah PLEASE make such an episode!
I'd like to just take a moment to say that I powered through the past 3 seasons and finally got caught back up after a year or two of falling behind. I sincerely appreciate the effort Extra Credits puts towards explaining complex and simplistic game design do's and don'ts. It has helped me a ton as I try and get moving towards my own game development. At the very least, it provides me with ideas and inspiration, at the most, an understanding of the world of game design and the gaming industry. Keep on rocking guys!
PS. I vote that you continue discussing this subject!
Do you think some of these things can apply to comics and literature?
Personally, I think ideas from any art medium can transfer into almost any other. When you look at literature, your "mechanics" just become the writing skills, word choice, and structure used by the author
Of course, but those forms of media don't have user input or need it to function. Whenever you read a book you read the same book, despite your perspective on different points in the book. On the Contrary, Each time you play a game is entirely different based on your actions as a player.
+Darren Heath I'm looking at this from an artistic perspective. You're right about the user input though. that said, reading requires imagination, but appreciating music or a painting doesn't. every medium is a bit different, but they all serve as frames of reference into the artist's personal experience
Nathan Gilbert The main thing that made me question this is the lack of user input might affect reader / player fantasy quite a bit
+Shipomaster Yeah, but I think that games might just be inherently more immersive
I wanna make a FPS inspired by Doom called Lots of Demons.
I think that would probably be a supernatural/dark theme. (Though, doom isnt exactly considered scary or dark anymore, cause its just sprites)
Goodluck
There's a Spiders version of doom called "Puppet Combo Spiders"
I would love for you guys to go deeper into this topic!
Hey guys thanks for all the videos, two months Ago I watched a video "so you want to be a game developer". Immediately after, with no coding experience, I downloaded game maker, and I've watched 2-3 of your videos every day since. After 10-15 hours of CZcams tutorials on gml, I'm finally putting something cool together. The reason I think it's cool is directly related to the perspectives and ideas you've presented that I might have never thought about.
Come on now, I know you guys wanna do this...
why the hell is Blizzard so good at making dense and powerful stories in an RTS and roll with it to infinity? They havent done it just once but TWICE!!!
Okay, I have one that may be a challenge to break down.
Mario.
Seriously, the Super Mario games have such a broad appeal, but what kind of fantasy are they even going for? The best I can come up with is the most generic stuff; save the world. Oooh, like I haven't done that in a game before.
Seriously, who is fantasizing about being Mario or being in the Mushroom Kingdom?
But yet, it is super crazy popular. So what is the core fantasy that everyone loves?
I realize this is an old comment, but I've got an answer that might come across as snarky: Fantasy is one aesthetic of play, and not all games cater to it. I play Mario games because I enjoy overcoming the challenge of the obstacle course levels and such, as well as the humor in the more RPGish Mario games. I also get sense pleasure out of the colorful characters and setting.
Perhaps the mechanics are the fantasy
Having weird powers/enemies/interactions, all while relating to sufficiently familiar concepts : stomping, throwing, tubes, reaching the goal...
There is a kind of child's dreams aspect to it.
Really good episode; It would be very interesting to expand on this, and flesh out with more examples.
Please continue the subject. I feel that a breakdown of a popular game's fantasy can help young designers understand that finer points of what you are attempting to get at.
'Elder Scrolls 6' can't be made, according to Bethesda because they don't have the technology to create it. They know their theme, everyone knows this and every fan can agree that even a bad ES game will be a good game. I applaud their dedication to what could be another 'Fallout 4' (the bad makes the good blegh).
'Dragon Age: Origins' was a game made because EA wanted a D&D type game. It's a credit to David Gaider and his team that it's as amazing as it is (love it or hate it, it could have been worlds worse i.e. forgotten).
Can I just say that Tolkein Fantasy IS Norse Fantasy... Most of Middle Earth is heavily inspired by Norse Mythology. The Elven beliefs surrounding the Two Trees is reminiscent of Yggdrassil, the Dwarves themselves mirror those from Norse Mythology, as does their relationship with the Elves. Many of the names are either inspired by old Norse themes or just taken directly FROM Norse Mythology. To name but a few, Gandalf (meaning 'Magic Elf'). Gimle (Meaning "Hall of Gold" or something similar. Can't quite remember that one.) Fili and Kili.
Not to mention all the imagery is rather viking-esque.
Disclaimer: haven't read or seen Tolkein. I think with Tolkein it's more with the way the world is treated. Tolkein, to me seems like capital "H" capital "F" High Fantasy and is what you think of when you here high fantasy. I think.
Also disclaimer: I've only seen the movies and played a couple of the games. However, I HAVE read both the Prose and Poetic Eddas, so I have a basic knowledge of the Norse side of things.
You have a bit of a point there, because while everything in the Edda is treated very much like an old legend told around a campfire, the LotR and Hobbit movies are treated like an account of events that actually occurred. In many ways, the feel is very different... But a the same time, all the fantasy elements are in one way or another inspired or just taken from Norse Mythology. I think the supposed difference between Tolkein Fantasy and Norse Fantasy comes from the derivatives of each. Like, Norse Fantasy is in many ways derived from Norse Mythology. Tolkein's works are much the same. But things derived and inspired by Tolkein's works lack knowledge of the materials his world was inspired by, and thus lack that Nordic element and devolve/evolve (depending on your point of view) into "High" Fantasy, which is a far more accurate term to use as opposed to "Tolkein Fantasy", seeing as "Norse Fantasy" has its own category in this instance.
While you are right about some things, I disagree about how "all the fantasy elements" are from Norse mythology. For example, the Dwarves. In Norse mythology, the Dwarves are a kind of elf(similar to Elder Scrolls).
In Tolkien, the Dwarves are simply Dwarves. And the Dwarvish language, Khuzdul, is based on Semitic languages.
And speaking of language and elves, Sindarin, the most common Elvish tongue, is rooted in Finnish and Welsh.
That is not to say, of course, that some things are not inspired by Norse mythology. Gandalf, an aged wanderer, is rather reminiscent of Odin, who often wandered Midgard in the guise of an old man(Sauron is also similar to Odin in many aspects). And the Two Trees were probably inspired by Yggdrasil(though I am surprised that you know of them, seeing as how you said you never read the books.) But to claim that all of the elements of Tolkien's works are from Norse mythology is absolutely ridiculous. He borrowed from all over the world. Norse, Irish, Celtic, Greek, the list goes on.
As annoying a semantic as it is, my statement was that they all seem to be in some way derived from Norse Mythology. I didn't mean to imply that it was a copy and paste job, but rather that of all the inspiration, that of Norse Mythology is the largest and most frequent.
I picked up on the Two Trees from Shadow of Mordor. There's an artifact you can find that has them depicted on each side and it really just looks like "Yggdrassil and his twin brother". I kinda laughed when I saw it, though that was more because the game devs weren't even trying with that one.
+Jack Wyatt I couldn't really get into Shadow of Mordor. Not only because it was lore-breaking, but something about the gameplay just flew over my head, and I ended up just button-mashing, which wasn't very fun. I finally gave up when an Orc chief that took me ages to kill magically came back to life.
Wow, I've been waiting for you guys to talk about this topic.
Great episode! I'd love for you to go more in depth with this topic by going through the fantasy of specific games.
maybe it would be interesting to look why fallout 4 didn't hit the mark for so many people.
Ugh. I feel bad, but I literally didn't understand this topic at all, and I was seriously trying to get something out of it. Everything was just too vague and the buzzwords like "Fantasy" and "Theme" are just too muddied and similar to be of any use.
Forleafe That's why some designers who are more business-focused have issues, too, I imagine. The topic is vague. You have to wrap your head around this big giant idea of what you want your entire virtual reality to /feel/ like when someone is playing in it. So you have to think up every minute detail. It's a lot easier... to not do that. And just say it should have cool stuff.
I would definitely like to see some particular examples of understanding the fantasy done right, and why you guys think that it is that way. This was an excellent video by the way. Here lately, I've been attempting to build a D&D campaign around a few specific ideas so this video was pertinent to that endeavor.
Yes, please break down the fantasy of an example game and discuss how the theme and mechanics work with or against. Maybe use two examples, one where this is done well and one where there is enough dissonance to throw the whole thing off.
I enjoy your videos and try to watch every Wednesday. Thanks for your work on these!
A few I wouldn't mind seeing:
Don't Starve and how it stands out from other survival games. There are tons of survival games lately but I still come back to it.
Prison Architect and how it stands out despite loads of similar strategy and prison themed games.
Huniepop, as it's a strange mix of puzzle and dating but somehow works.
Space Station 13, which looks like a massive confusing multiplayer mess until you try it. Then it's a great mess.
Dragon age series?
Break more down! I LOVE this stuff! So much to learn.
This video is SO GOOD. Thanks for that!
Yes, please. I vote for the Fallout universe or The Elder Scrolls.
who's the drill guy? i remember him in a ds game but thats about it
Mr. Driller
Mr. Driller.
Check out Extra Play, Dan played Mr Driller with a guest.
thanks all :D
I thought it's a girl. :D
Yes please do a video on theme and understanding themes in games...great series love what's you guys do
I'd love to see breakdowns like this, it'd really help.
Could games like Pokemon be considered fantasy?
Well there is always Star Wars and Final Fantasy
It would probably be fantasy in the same way Star Wars is fantasy. The Pokemon world has some pretty advanced technology, but the rules of how Pokemon are able to do what they do is mysterious and pseudo mystical.
Well the Fantasy in the video is not Fantasy as in a genre and more fantasy in a "Fantasising" sense. And Pokemon delivers on the "Gatherer and Hunter" fantasy. The idea of a guy that goas out to "catch them all" and then become the best of his kind.
A Meier He also talks about the Fantasy genre in this video too, when talking about digging down to specifics like Norse or Arthurian Fantasy.
I think it can. He explains in video how games are world fantasies or personal fantasies. Pokemon can be considered as the former one
Tell me why Call of Duty failed so hard. And why they still attempt to make it good when they can't.
People get bored of playing the exact same thing over and over again.
But Pokemon
PennyNickel McGee I'm trying to figure that one out myself.
I've noticed that there are two schools of thought about CoD games, "It's the same game with the same guns and the same campaign every time!" and "What was wrong with World War II? Why did you have to start trying to be Halo?" In other words, people are upset by both change and lack of change. CoD is fucked because the devs make the changes that people weren't asking for.
Now imagine if Pokemon kept the same Pokemon from one generation to the next, and they took place in space or something. I think that's the difference between the two; what exactly is kept and what is changed? Personally, I think CoD bashing is an awful bandwagon. If the fans want new features, making it take place in the future gives devs creative liberties to add features that make multiplayer interesting, like the exosuits and all that jazz.
They went from adversity of war but at least you have your friends to rely on.
Then later on they went and decided "remember about comradery, cooperation, understanding that enemy combatants are human beings too? Well fuck that, here is COD: Ghosts where you are the super duper elite soldier fighting against the enemy super duper elite soldier. Or fuck the enemy empathy part, we'll just show cutscenes where the japanese slit the throats of your fellow soldiers in the first five minutes. Remember when we showed the horrors of nuclear warfare, well let's take the latest title, add in Kevin Spacey, and ruin the entire possibility of having a PMC company not be cartoon tier evul."
I would love to see and hear more of this topic. Please EXTRA TEAM
As a small indie dev, please continue on what makes fantasy....well fantasy. Such an underrated subject for writers/devs alike to understand! You guys rock! As always!
Did you just call Kingdoms of Amalur mediocre??? O_o
it is worse than mediocre
T_T Why?
It was great eye candy. And wonderful at hybrid skills and hybrid character classes. Character investment in that game was awesome.i would argue the world lore was also excellent as they had an excellent author land them a world he had build. But the story of the characters, level design, and presentation fell way flat. They scoped the game too big and couldn't afford the budget to fill the game with enough meaningful content. Also EA.
+Barnedion I think you're right about the skyrim thing, partly. It would have done much better if not for having to be compared to that. But Amalur had pretty solid mechanics and beautiful art, but a hopelessly flat world with boring characters and super predictable stereotypes for elves, dwarves, etc. The story was entirely uncompelling and I kept forgetting who the characters were. Also the crafting mechanic was unreasonably complicated and it ended up being stupid tedious to gather materials or a good weapon.
and most importantly, it didn't really do anything exceptionally well. every dungeon seemed to play exactly the same, looting wasn't very satisfying, crafting might as well have not been in the game, the story was mediocre, and while the combat often felt good, it was a little too on-rails to remain interesting for a long experience like was intended. It was a high-budget polished pile of content, but lacked imagination or innovation of any sort that could extend the pleasure of the first couple hours.
I love that game!