It would be helpful, to have the resources cited, *where* the early Church Fathers said this, citing the book, page number etc, so that we can look it up and read it also.
Around 55:10 minutes, the typical disagreement from people mentioned was the English translation (KJV) "to be ABSENT from the body is to be at HOME with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8, and 9. I have been studying NT Greek for over a year now, nearly daily, so let me share some observations about two key pivotal words there. The root word is the infinitive of the verb in the Aorist tense. It is the only place in the NT that I see it used. It is the basis for both words translated: ABSENT and at HOME. In Koine Greek, it is common practice to prefix a verb or noun with a preposition, in this case the two used and of interest are: EK = OUT OF example of this is EK-KLESIA where klesia is called and EK = out of, i.e. "called out of" which is translated as church. EN = in So the two verb infinitives used are ἐκδημῆσαι or with our alphabet ekdēmēsai and the other is ἐνδημῆσαι or endēmēsai. biblehub.com/greek/1736.htm So what they are suggesting with their translation is by instead of EN we put EK in front of demesai to form EKDEMESAI and we get ABSENT versus with EN we get "endemesai" we get AT HOME. Consider this to tap into what this might really mean: The word I know for sure what it means that I have had in my studies as vocabulary is the NOUN version of this verb, a cousin word so to speak, with the same root meaning and that is δῆμος or DEMOS, where we get democracy. This word means PEOPLE. biblehub.com/greek/1218.htm So since one is EK and a verb version of DEMOS, we can expect it to mean something like OUT OF THE PEOPLE of God, as in leaving the church on earth, and the latter EN-DEMOS or into the people of God in Hades, awaiting the resurrection. When I get home I plan to check my Greek Septuagint LXX Lexicon to see how it is used in there. Here's a resource that I use to read the NT, LXX, and early church in Greek; here are these words in his lexicon. He says the EK-DEMESAI = to leave one's people or country EN-DEMESAI = to be at home in one's country (or people) The words for country are different than this, so I see it more as leave one's people and to be at home with one's people respectively. The man who put this website together is a hardcore Martin Luther fan and Reformation enthusiast. www.motorera.com/greek/lexicon/ek.html#ekdhmhsai www.motorera.com/greek/lexicon/en.html#endhmhsai Lastly, in 2 Corinthians 5:8 it has EN-DEMESIA "with the Lord".... the preposition there is not used typically as WITH, usually META (with genitive form of object of the preposition) or SUN (with the DATIVE form of the object of the prepositional phrase)... so the greek words META or SUN are used to clearly state "WITH" the Lord... but that is not the word used here. The preposition is typically translated as TOWARD or TO the Lord. So seems more like "among the people to (toward) the Lord". ** sometimes translation is awkward and why atypical words are sometimes used to smooth out the translation, but then these ambiguities can turn into doctrinal contentions too.
Yes, he comes back and he and his believers will make the earth the way God purposed in the first place. Going to heaven is not mankind’s place. Really, David, you study enough to understand the purpose of God. Listen to NT Wright about the new creation.
Thank you. I would also add, even if Jesus did empty Hades upon his death, it doesn't mean that those after his Resurrection would go to Heaven immediately.
Most of your videos are good, but in this video, you first talk about the church fathers of the first 100 years of the Church, but then you spend a lot of time quoting from someone much later: Hippolytus of Rome (170 - 235 AD). I'm also disappointed in that you seem to use the very tactics that you say to guard against in other lectures, such as proof texting and using poor translations of verses.
The CD messages focus on the pre-Nicene writings which include those written up until 325. Please provide an example of proof-texting or use of poor translations in this message. Thank you.
Jesus went to preach to the spirits that were in "prison" (another word for Hades) and the gates of heaven were open by Him... I wonder if you are not conflating the disposition of the body of Son of Man being buried in the earth (a grave) 3 days with what He did and where He went in His Spirit? I think more happened when Jesus laid down His life... the mention of John the Baptist being in the Kingdom of Heaven and the fact that Jesus _did_ return to those apostles... we get a new heaven and a new earth... there is a lot said in scripture. I think this treatment overlooks some hints about what Jesus accomplished in opening heaven.
My understanding is that the earliest Christians were premillennial. That would mean they saw the bodily resurrection of the just as preparation for the early reign, not ascent into heaven. Where am I missing it?
There was a resurrection of the dead after Jesus died. The graves were opened, right? Didn't Jesus liberate Abraham's bosom after He took the keys of hell and death? All in Abraham's bosom were justified by faith, just like the thief on the cross. Jesus preached to them and led captivity from paradise into heaven from what I understand. The Church Fathers didnt always get it right. I remember reading how they believed Jesus return so imminent that they said some prophecy of Daniel couldn't be literal. The Apostles were the same. They didn't even write down the Gospels until decades afterward. Jesus was returning because some standing here would see His return. His return was imminent. Who needed the Gospels? They misunderstood.
The book of Revelations is full of future events which haven't happened yet. He was not watching in "real time", but it was a vision of things to come. This is also made clear in the introduction of the book. So I find it not contradicting to the view of the early Christians, but judge for yourself.
The 24 elders are angelic beings, not departed human souls (or resurrected humans). They are called "elders" because of the way they appear to John in this heavenly vision.
That was a story about how people should treat people not a teaching about death. Really David I am surprised at you! A good scholar would do more research on such a story. One drop of water wouldn’t help anyone!
It would be helpful, to have the resources cited, *where* the early Church Fathers said this, citing the book, page number etc, so that we can look it up and read it also.
Around 55:10 minutes, the typical disagreement from people mentioned was the English translation (KJV) "to be ABSENT from the body is to be at HOME with the Lord". 2 Corinthians 5:6, 8, and 9.
I have been studying NT Greek for over a year now, nearly daily, so let me share some observations about two key pivotal words there. The root word is the infinitive of the verb in the Aorist tense. It is the only place in the NT that I see it used. It is the basis for both words translated: ABSENT and at HOME.
In Koine Greek, it is common practice to prefix a verb or noun with a preposition, in this case the two used and of interest are:
EK = OUT OF example of this is EK-KLESIA where klesia is called and EK = out of, i.e. "called out of" which is translated as church.
EN = in
So the two verb infinitives used are ἐκδημῆσαι or with our alphabet ekdēmēsai
and the other is ἐνδημῆσαι or endēmēsai.
biblehub.com/greek/1736.htm
So what they are suggesting with their translation is by instead of EN we put EK in front of demesai to form EKDEMESAI and we get ABSENT
versus with EN we get "endemesai" we get AT HOME.
Consider this to tap into what this might really mean: The word I know for sure what it means that I have had in my studies as vocabulary is the NOUN version of this verb, a cousin word so to speak, with the same root meaning and that is δῆμος or DEMOS, where we get democracy. This word means PEOPLE. biblehub.com/greek/1218.htm
So since one is EK and a verb version of DEMOS, we can expect it to mean something like OUT OF THE PEOPLE of God, as in leaving the church on earth, and the latter
EN-DEMOS or into the people of God in Hades, awaiting the resurrection.
When I get home I plan to check my Greek Septuagint LXX Lexicon to see how it is used in there.
Here's a resource that I use to read the NT, LXX, and early church in Greek; here are these words in his lexicon.
He says the EK-DEMESAI = to leave one's people or country
EN-DEMESAI = to be at home in one's country (or people)
The words for country are different than this, so I see it more as leave one's people and to be at home with one's people respectively. The man who put this website together is a hardcore Martin Luther fan and Reformation enthusiast.
www.motorera.com/greek/lexicon/ek.html#ekdhmhsai
www.motorera.com/greek/lexicon/en.html#endhmhsai
Lastly, in 2 Corinthians 5:8 it has EN-DEMESIA "with the Lord".... the preposition there is not used typically as WITH, usually META (with genitive form of object of the preposition) or SUN (with the DATIVE form of the object of the prepositional phrase)... so the greek words META or SUN are used to clearly state "WITH" the Lord... but that is not the word used here. The preposition is typically translated as TOWARD or TO the Lord.
So seems more like "among the people to (toward) the Lord".
** sometimes translation is awkward and why atypical words are sometimes used to smooth out the translation, but then these ambiguities can turn into doctrinal contentions too.
c
Yes, he comes back and he and his believers will make the earth the way God purposed in the first place. Going to heaven is not mankind’s place. Really, David, you study enough to understand the purpose of God. Listen to NT Wright about the new creation.
Excellent answers.
Thank you. I would also add, even if Jesus did empty Hades upon his death, it doesn't mean that those after his Resurrection would go to Heaven immediately.
Most of your videos are good, but in this video, you first talk about the church fathers of the first 100 years of the Church, but then you spend a lot of time quoting from someone much later: Hippolytus of Rome (170 - 235 AD). I'm also disappointed in that you seem to use the very tactics that you say to guard against in other lectures, such as proof texting and using poor translations of verses.
The CD messages focus on the pre-Nicene writings which include those written up until 325. Please provide an example of proof-texting or use of poor translations in this message. Thank you.
Jesus went to preach to the spirits that were in "prison" (another word for Hades) and the gates of heaven were open by Him... I wonder if you are not conflating the disposition of the body of Son of Man being buried in the earth (a grave) 3 days with what He did and where He went in His Spirit? I think more happened when Jesus laid down His life... the mention of John the Baptist being in the Kingdom of Heaven and the fact that Jesus _did_ return to those apostles... we get a new heaven and a new earth... there is a lot said in scripture. I think this treatment overlooks some hints about what Jesus accomplished in opening heaven.
My understanding is that the earliest Christians were premillennial. That would mean they saw the bodily resurrection of the just as preparation for the early reign, not ascent into heaven. Where am I missing it?
There was a resurrection of the dead after Jesus died. The graves were opened, right? Didn't Jesus liberate Abraham's bosom after He took the keys of hell and death? All in Abraham's bosom were justified by faith, just like the thief on the cross. Jesus preached to them and led captivity from paradise into heaven from what I understand. The Church Fathers didnt always get it right. I remember reading how they believed Jesus return so imminent that they said some prophecy of Daniel couldn't be literal. The Apostles were the same. They didn't even write down the Gospels until decades afterward. Jesus was returning because some standing here would see His return. His return was imminent. Who needed the Gospels? They misunderstood.
HeavenGuy 70AD
Really good teaching, how bout the 24 elders in the book of Revelation? Cause they are in heaven talking with John
Peter Watson this is sort of why I'm not fully convinced, but he makes an excellent case.
Revelation was almost not included in the Bible. It is so visionary, I would never base a doctrine on it.
The book of Revelations is full of future events which haven't happened yet. He was not watching in "real time", but it was a vision of things to come. This is also made clear in the introduction of the book. So I find it not contradicting to the view of the early Christians, but judge for yourself.
The 24 elders are angelic beings, not departed human souls (or resurrected humans). They are called "elders" because of the way they appear to John in this heavenly vision.
That was a story about how people should treat people not a teaching about death. Really David I am surprised at you! A good scholar would do more research on such a story. One drop of water wouldn’t help anyone!
Thank you for the love of the truth Yahsua is very proud of you for showing gentiles