Phenomenal comparison, thanks. Dare I say, the microphones sound all good. The guitars are great, your playing is superb, and that is what matters. Once you got that right, you will sound good with a cheap and with an expensive mic..
Love my Rhode NT5's but much prefer my DPA4099 and the mic stand adaptor since I got it to anything else I have. Great to hear the variations like this, thank you.🍷
Great work, Doug! You make them all sound fantastic. I own two of these and am surprised by how much more different they sound in my usage than in your examples, but our guitars and rooms are very different, too.
Yeah, thats what makes comparisons hard - different rooms, player, guitars, maybe placement.. Can you characterize how your results are different? (I know, sound differences are hard to put into words, as well)
@@DougYoungGuitar oh, it's not hard. heh, and maybe I'm having an insight here. the KM184s are much brighter than the schoeps, but maybe that stands out so much to me because my classical guitar doesn't have the kind of ringing overtones a steel string would. in other words, I hear a contrast between the brightness of the attack and nail noises and such that you might not really hear on a guitar where each note doesn't have so much contrast within it. likewise, the guitar I've been playing exclusively recently, certainly since I got my Schoeps, has pretty deep bass, but I always perceive the 184s' rolloff, which I don't so much with your recording. Again, this may just be how my ears hear certain frequencies within the context of the other things they're hearing at the same time
@@wbajzek Makes sense. The 184's presence peak may not matter as much with a classical guitar if it's producing less in that area. I actually was surprised that these weren't as bright as I remembered them! They've been in my closet for a while.
@@DougYoungGuitar On the contrary, the 184s presence peak is right where I don't want it to be :) it emphasizes sounds that I try to avoid making. I have to work extra hard on my nails to get them to work with the 184s. But maybe if I played with a brighter tone, those sounds would just blend in. I love to complain about my 184s but I can't bring myself to sell them. I have been able to make some recordings with them that I'm really happy with, although they take more work than the Schoeps or Lines. The trick with the 184s is it seems like they do better at a distance, which is not a great option in my small room.
This video is extremely well done. Your playing is superb and very consisyent. Overall, I think the Schoeps sounds most "mix ready" and polished, but i preferred the detail of the KM184's in most of the examples. I am curious as to which reverb you used in the mixed version. Its sound very natural.
@@DougYoungGuitarFunny I have the Fabfilter Pro R2 and can't get it to sound that transparent! Would you be willing to share your settings? I also play fingerstyle guitar and am looking for that almost inaudible added "space" that I think you nailed on this...would love to give it a try on one of my recordings.
It looks like I just used the default setting, I think I had just gotten this plugin shortly before this demo, and just decided to try it. If You email me (doug at dougyoungguitar.com) I can send you a screen snap, but it doesn't look like I really changed anything
Listened with DALI Oberon 3 speakers and Denon D7200 headphones. I would say that: CAD -> AT2020 -> NT5 having noticable improvement. Right for the price. NT5 -> KM184 little difference, lets say - if money difference not a huge problem for that and you want a bit better sound - then fine. This is exactly my case right now. Just hard to decide :D KM184 - CMC6-MK41 imho, question of a taste. I would definitely not investing that money for any kind of "home recordings". Its like an audiophile topic, where people are buying 5000$ headphones and 1000$ cables for that 😀 Pretty sure, that Telefunken M60, Gefell M300, Soyuz 013, Beyerdynamic MC930 could be also the choise for someone, who is using mic in price range on KM184 and want something else. I've just read 1000 of forum pages last time and it seems like that. There are no place 1-2-3 at all. Just "taste" and usecase.
Yep, as I said in the other video thread where I sent you to this one - the difference between mics is far more subtle than we're led to believe in marketing materials. That said, there are differences. Some of these show up in use more than in the final result. When I first got a chance to try better mics, first the KM184s and later the Schoeps, what I first noticed was how much easier they were to work with. The cheaper mics I had been using required a lot of attention to placement to sound good. With the 184s and Schoeps, it's almost like you can't make them sound bad if you try! Placement still matters, but they sound pretty good no matter where you put them. There can also be very quantifiable differences, such as self-noise, which can sometimes be noticeably high in some budget signal chains. All depends on budgets and how important the differences are to you. I've made recordings with even cheaper mics than these, and as with anything, including guitars, you're chasing diminishing returns as the price increases. It comes down to whether the cost for another 1% improvement (or 0.1%!) is worth it to you, or for that matter, if you can even notice the difference.
@@DougYoungGuitar thanks for a lot of useful info :) If I didn''t try so far to do something I wouldn't understand that. But I already tried to work only with one Sennheiser MK4 incompletely untreated room. That was terrible experience considering also the fact, that I dont have mixing experience :D Sorry for annoying, but last question If we talk exactly about: -> "Some of these show up in use more than in the final result" Did you mention significant difference between Rode NT5 and Neumann KM184, while post-production? And what exactly was the issues? (I assume on Rode's)
@@Therapyxx I thought the NT5 and KM184 were pretty close. We're really splitting hairs with all of them. My goal is to let people decide for themselves by listening to these, and my opinion shouldn't matter much. But for what it's worth, the CAD mics have almost nothing above about 10KHz, tho that's barely noticeable. I find the AT2020s a bit thinner, tho again, they sound fine and can be EQd. The NT5 and KM184s sound good, with less difference between them than you might think. Might be hard to pick them out blind. The Schoeps just sound almost exactly like my guitar. So really, no "issues" with any of these. The Rode's were borrowed, so I haven't spent much time with them aside from this demo. The 184s and Schoeps, I've had for a long time, so I have more a sense of how they're going to work - which mostly "stick them someplace reasonable, and they'll sound good"
@@DougYoungGuitar thanks for all info and demo. it helps a lot. Just got Neumann ndh 30 headphones and it became even more noticable whats going on. I would say - to my ears, I love KM184 most, it so much detailed and rich. Rode is 100% fine, even for me its more than fine. But i know that someday I will end with selling rode's and buy Neumans, so I will try to focus on one Neumann firstly and then add second one later (in case I will need that) :D Everyone says, that Neumanns are too bright. If its the case... Then Rode's are x2 brighter :D I tried to find a lot of fingerstyle recordings on youtube and checked, which mics are used there. Rode's are really popular choice, M5 and NT5. But all those recording are so bright... And in case the guy has something like Beyerdynamic DT770 Headphones, which are twice brighter than Rode's mics, then the whole composition hears like 10+ DB on high freqs.
@@Therapyxx What you listen on definitely makes a big difference. So many people these days are listening on their phones, either thru the speakers (yuck), or cheap earbuds (also yuck), which totally changes everything. Mostly you can't hear subtle differences, or even big differences. Sometimes I've even heard things I thought sounded good on my phone only to discover how bad it sounded over studio monitors (and vice-versa, I guess)
I tried a 013 pair recently, and considered doing a demo of them, but I really didn't care for them. Very colored mic in a way that I didn't find flattering. They got sent back quickly. Great looking mics, tho, and I guess you can say that at least they're offering something different.
@@DougYoungGuitar yeah its to coloured to make a mixes or just flat recordings. But I can imagine that it could fit for solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar, how sweet also percussion would be etc. Especially if I dont have super studio condition at home, just did what I can, but its not perfect :( So I'm a bit scared, that KM184 would be overkilled by the room itself. But I see that potential of km184 to be EQ'ed easily. As far as I understand, more flat sound is easier to Post-Process if needed
What would you suggest for percussive fingerstyle playing? I am currently using a cheaper end micophone like Focusrite but the attack is always too sharp for me
cheaper mics can sometimes have a harsh high end, which might be causing a problem. I don't really have a lot of experience with percussive guitar, but I could imagine it might aggravate the problem. It could also be due to room acoustics, which can produce a harsh sound if they aren't controlled. Many percussive players mix in a pickup, usually a sound board transducer like the K&K, which can add some more direct, punchy and maybe woody sound to percussive effects.
@@DougYoungGuitar I've installed LR Baggs Lyric on my Furch yellow gccr I am thinking about getting Neuman KM184 but for my budget I can only get one, would you say it would be a better option to buy two cheaper mics like Rode NT5 or AT2020 for better result?
@@Floydandsome It depends on how important stereo is to you, I guess. Most solo guitar, if thats what you're doing, is in stereo these days. You might look at used to keep the budget down. The 2020s can work fine, tho it certainly isn't a higher end mic. There are other AT mics for a bit more that sound a bit fuller. I personally would choose a more budget mic(s) in stereo over a single mono mic, if I had to choose, but that's just my taste - I'm used to hearing stereo for solo guitar.
Phenomenal comparison, thanks. Dare I say, the microphones sound all good. The guitars are great, your playing is superb, and that is what matters. Once you got that right, you will sound good with a cheap and with an expensive mic..
Love my Rhode NT5's but much prefer my DPA4099 and the mic stand adaptor since I got it to anything else I have. Great to hear the variations like this, thank you.🍷
Very informative content, Doug! Appreciate the efforts 🙌 I could've borrowed my sweden Line Audio CM4s. Maybe next time :)
Well done, as always, Doug!
Great work, Doug! You make them all sound fantastic. I own two of these and am surprised by how much more different they sound in my usage than in your examples, but our guitars and rooms are very different, too.
Yeah, thats what makes comparisons hard - different rooms, player, guitars, maybe placement.. Can you characterize how your results are different? (I know, sound differences are hard to put into words, as well)
@@DougYoungGuitar oh, it's not hard. heh, and maybe I'm having an insight here. the KM184s are much brighter than the schoeps, but maybe that stands out so much to me because my classical guitar doesn't have the kind of ringing overtones a steel string would. in other words, I hear a contrast between the brightness of the attack and nail noises and such that you might not really hear on a guitar where each note doesn't have so much contrast within it.
likewise, the guitar I've been playing exclusively recently, certainly since I got my Schoeps, has pretty deep bass, but I always perceive the 184s' rolloff, which I don't so much with your recording. Again, this may just be how my ears hear certain frequencies within the context of the other things they're hearing at the same time
@@wbajzek Makes sense. The 184's presence peak may not matter as much with a classical guitar if it's producing less in that area. I actually was surprised that these weren't as bright as I remembered them! They've been in my closet for a while.
@@DougYoungGuitar On the contrary, the 184s presence peak is right where I don't want it to be :) it emphasizes sounds that I try to avoid making. I have to work extra hard on my nails to get them to work with the 184s. But maybe if I played with a brighter tone, those sounds would just blend in.
I love to complain about my 184s but I can't bring myself to sell them. I have been able to make some recordings with them that I'm really happy with, although they take more work than the Schoeps or Lines. The trick with the 184s is it seems like they do better at a distance, which is not a great option in my small room.
@@wbajzek Ah, I misunderstood. That does make sense
This video is extremely well done. Your playing is superb and very consisyent. Overall, I think the Schoeps sounds most "mix ready" and polished, but i preferred the detail of the KM184's in most of the examples. I am curious as to which reverb you used in the mixed version. Its sound very natural.
Thanks, the reverb on this demo was the FabFilter Pro R2
@@DougYoungGuitarFunny I have the Fabfilter Pro R2 and can't get it to sound that transparent! Would you be willing to share your settings? I also play fingerstyle guitar and am looking for that almost inaudible added "space" that I think you nailed on this...would love to give it a try on one of my recordings.
It looks like I just used the default setting, I think I had just gotten this plugin shortly before this demo, and just decided to try it. If You email me (doug at dougyoungguitar.com) I can send you a screen snap, but it doesn't look like I really changed anything
Listened with DALI Oberon 3 speakers and Denon D7200 headphones. I would say that:
CAD -> AT2020 -> NT5 having noticable improvement. Right for the price.
NT5 -> KM184 little difference, lets say - if money difference not a huge problem for that and you want a bit better sound - then fine. This is exactly my case right now. Just hard to decide :D
KM184 - CMC6-MK41 imho, question of a taste. I would definitely not investing that money for any kind of "home recordings". Its like an audiophile topic, where people are buying 5000$ headphones and 1000$ cables for that 😀 Pretty sure, that Telefunken M60, Gefell M300, Soyuz 013, Beyerdynamic MC930 could be also the choise for someone, who is using mic in price range on KM184 and want something else. I've just read 1000 of forum pages last time and it seems like that. There are no place 1-2-3 at all. Just "taste" and usecase.
Yep, as I said in the other video thread where I sent you to this one - the difference between mics is far more subtle than we're led to believe in marketing materials. That said, there are differences. Some of these show up in use more than in the final result. When I first got a chance to try better mics, first the KM184s and later the Schoeps, what I first noticed was how much easier they were to work with. The cheaper mics I had been using required a lot of attention to placement to sound good. With the 184s and Schoeps, it's almost like you can't make them sound bad if you try! Placement still matters, but they sound pretty good no matter where you put them. There can also be very quantifiable differences, such as self-noise, which can sometimes be noticeably high in some budget signal chains. All depends on budgets and how important the differences are to you. I've made recordings with even cheaper mics than these, and as with anything, including guitars, you're chasing diminishing returns as the price increases. It comes down to whether the cost for another 1% improvement (or 0.1%!) is worth it to you, or for that matter, if you can even notice the difference.
@@DougYoungGuitar thanks for a lot of useful info :) If I didn''t try so far to do something I wouldn't understand that. But I already tried to work only with one Sennheiser MK4 incompletely untreated room. That was terrible experience considering also the fact, that I dont have mixing experience :D
Sorry for annoying, but last question If we talk exactly about:
-> "Some of these show up in use more than in the final result"
Did you mention significant difference between Rode NT5 and Neumann KM184, while post-production? And what exactly was the issues? (I assume on Rode's)
@@Therapyxx I thought the NT5 and KM184 were pretty close. We're really splitting hairs with all of them. My goal is to let people decide for themselves by listening to these, and my opinion shouldn't matter much. But for what it's worth, the CAD mics have almost nothing above about 10KHz, tho that's barely noticeable. I find the AT2020s a bit thinner, tho again, they sound fine and can be EQd. The NT5 and KM184s sound good, with less difference between them than you might think. Might be hard to pick them out blind. The Schoeps just sound almost exactly like my guitar. So really, no "issues" with any of these. The Rode's were borrowed, so I haven't spent much time with them aside from this demo. The 184s and Schoeps, I've had for a long time, so I have more a sense of how they're going to work - which mostly "stick them someplace reasonable, and they'll sound good"
@@DougYoungGuitar thanks for all info and demo. it helps a lot. Just got Neumann ndh 30 headphones and it became even more noticable whats going on.
I would say - to my ears, I love KM184 most, it so much detailed and rich. Rode is 100% fine, even for me its more than fine. But i know that someday I will end with selling rode's and buy Neumans, so I will try to focus on one Neumann firstly and then add second one later (in case I will need that) :D
Everyone says, that Neumanns are too bright. If its the case... Then Rode's are x2 brighter :D I tried to find a lot of fingerstyle recordings on youtube and checked, which mics are used there. Rode's are really popular choice, M5 and NT5. But all those recording are so bright... And in case the guy has something like Beyerdynamic DT770 Headphones, which are twice brighter than Rode's mics, then the whole composition hears like 10+ DB on high freqs.
@@Therapyxx What you listen on definitely makes a big difference. So many people these days are listening on their phones, either thru the speakers (yuck), or cheap earbuds (also yuck), which totally changes everything. Mostly you can't hear subtle differences, or even big differences. Sometimes I've even heard things I thought sounded good on my phone only to discover how bad it sounded over studio monitors (and vice-versa, I guess)
Sadly that there wasn't a soyuz 013... Really wanted to hear it in your recordings in comparison with KM184 ^^
I tried a 013 pair recently, and considered doing a demo of them, but I really didn't care for them. Very colored mic in a way that I didn't find flattering. They got sent back quickly. Great looking mics, tho, and I guess you can say that at least they're offering something different.
@@DougYoungGuitar yeah its to coloured to make a mixes or just flat recordings. But I can imagine that it could fit for solo fingerstyle acoustic guitar, how sweet also percussion would be etc. Especially if I dont have super studio condition at home, just did what I can, but its not perfect :(
So I'm a bit scared, that KM184 would be overkilled by the room itself.
But I see that potential of km184 to be EQ'ed easily. As far as I understand, more flat sound is easier to Post-Process if needed
What would you suggest for percussive fingerstyle playing?
I am currently using a cheaper end micophone like Focusrite but the attack is always too sharp for me
cheaper mics can sometimes have a harsh high end, which might be causing a problem. I don't really have a lot of experience with percussive guitar, but I could imagine it might aggravate the problem. It could also be due to room acoustics, which can produce a harsh sound if they aren't controlled. Many percussive players mix in a pickup, usually a sound board transducer like the K&K, which can add some more direct, punchy and maybe woody sound to percussive effects.
@@DougYoungGuitar I've installed LR Baggs Lyric on my Furch yellow gccr
I am thinking about getting Neuman KM184
but for my budget I can only get one, would you say it would be a better option to buy two cheaper mics like Rode NT5 or AT2020 for better result?
@@Floydandsome It depends on how important stereo is to you, I guess. Most solo guitar, if thats what you're doing, is in stereo these days. You might look at used to keep the budget down. The 2020s can work fine, tho it certainly isn't a higher end mic. There are other AT mics for a bit more that sound a bit fuller. I personally would choose a more budget mic(s) in stereo over a single mono mic, if I had to choose, but that's just my taste - I'm used to hearing stereo for solo guitar.
@@DougYoungGuitar Thank you so much for answering!
I might go to have soundcheck first
@@DougYoungGuitar Thanks for answering
I might go to have a soundcheck first
surprised that i liked the cheap one, AT2020