SIDESPIN MYTHS Debunked
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- Dr. Dave debunks many common misconceptions and myths concerning the use of sidespin in pool. Clear demonstrations convincingly separate sidespin fact from fiction. See also the important follow-up video:
• Why Outside and Inside...
Contents:
0:00 - Intro
0:10 - Myth 1 - Sidespin Changes CB Direction
2:33 - Myth 2 - Aiming With Sidespin Is Easy
3:53 - Myth 3 - LD Shafts Eliminate the Need to Adjust for CB Deflection
4:33 - Myth 4 - Throwing Balls in With Outside Spin is Necessary
6:16 - Myth 5 - Pros Don’t Use Sidespin Much
8:49 - Wrap Up
Supporting Resources:
- Top 100 Pool Myths: billiards.colostate.edu/myths/
- “CUE TESTING for Cue Ball Deflection, And PREDATOR REVO Carbon Fiber Shaft SIZE EFFECTS” video: • CUE TESTING for Cue Ba...
- “How to Select a Pool Cue, Cue Ball Deflection, Carbon Fiber, Revo vs. Cuetec” video: • How to Select a Pool C...
- “New WHYTE CARBON vs. Predator Revo Carbon Fiber Shaft ... "Ebony and Ivory" video: • New WHYTE CARBON vs. P...
- Sidespin Tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutor...
- squirt/swerve/throw effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
- System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS): billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
- cue testing resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
- LD shaft resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/c...
- carbon fiber cu resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/c...
- CB Control Tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutor...
- 30 degree rule peace sign technique: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/3...
- Throw Tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutor...
- gearing outside spin resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
- sidespin examples: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
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Good Luck With Your Game!!! - Sport
See also the important follow-up video:
czcams.com/video/9TokaN0ghSA/video.html
*Contents:*
0:00 - Intro
0:10 - Myth 1 - Sidespin Changes CB Direction
2:33 - Myth 2 - Aiming With Sidespin Is Easy
3:53 - Myth 3 - LD Shafts Eliminate the Need to Adjust for CB Deflection
4:33 - Myth 4 - Throwing Balls in With Outside Spin is Necessary
6:16 - Myth 5 - Pros Don’t Use Sidespin Much
8:49 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- Top 100 Pool Myths: billiards.colostate.edu/myths/
- “CUE TESTING for Cue Ball Deflection, And PREDATOR REVO Carbon Fiber Shaft SIZE EFFECTS” video: czcams.com/video/Al2gyPgGlPg/video.html
- “How to Select a Pool Cue, Cue Ball Deflection, Carbon Fiber, Revo vs. Cuetec” video: czcams.com/video/AwytGsNl2vc/video.html
- “New WHYTE CARBON vs. Predator Revo Carbon Fiber Shaft ... "Ebony and Ivory" video: czcams.com/video/cblx96wgJuA/video.html
- Sidespin Tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/sidespin/
- squirt/swerve/throw effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/effects/
- System for Aiming With Sidespin (SAWS): billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
- cue testing resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/published-data/
- LD shaft resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/
- carbon fiber cu resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/carbon/
- CB Control Tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/cue-ball-control/
- 30 degree rule peace sign technique: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/30-90-rules/peace-sign/
- Throw Tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
- gearing outside spin resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
- sidespin examples: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/examples/
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's CZcams Channel:*
czcams.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
Pp0 lol
Another awesome video, Dr. Dave. There are some cases where throw can make a ball where you can’t quite cut it enough, but those are quite rare. An example is if you’d barely make contact first with the opponents object ball, using the normal point of contact. Sometimes there’s enough space and distance to hit the ball slightly fat, and throw it into the pocket (as shown here).
Agreed. There are many shots where throw is used to change the outcome of the shot. Many can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/throw/
I recommend watching snooker matches where the commentators quite often mention when side-spin is needed before a player takes a shot. The nice thing about snooker is that "right-hand side" and "left-hand side" are defined terms, and one or the other will be specified when commentators are talking about what KIND of sidespin is needed for that shot. Same thing with "check side" and "running side" when specifically talking about the kind of spin needed when the cue ball contacts the cushion. Also, the "swerve" shot is fairly common in snooker, and quite often you'll hear a commentator say something like "He needs to swerve around the pink to pot the red, but it is potable".
Side spin in snooker is way more useful due to the distances cue ball has to travel and speed of cloth/cushions rebound. Position shots can be very spectacular if player knows how to use it properly, also looks more impressive considering there is no diamond markings on the snooker table.
@@Vlow52yeah snooker tables have rougher/ticker cloth than pool tables, so side spin is much more effective. Add in the smaller cue tip for more precise control. You can get a lot more out of a swerve or a kick on a snooker table.
Happy Holidays, Dr. Dave!
Ditto Kim!
Excellent video. One of the things you mentioned in this video is something I found out while watching a lot of really good players when I lived in the Philippines - they were not using nearly as much spin as I thought they were. And I am not talking about the frequency of spin, I am talking about the actual spin.
Yes, they were using spin but, where a lower level amateur might think they needed a full tip of spin, or more, these really good players were maybe using half a tip, and so on. This makes pocketing shots much easier for most players.
Good point. Top players always use a little spin as possible.
Great comment, and my exact thoughts after watching this video. I have missed so many shots in my current league season because although I have played pool off and on since I was a kid (around 20ish years) I recently got into league/serious play within the last few years, and have been trying to learn how to use side spin. I have been putting way too much emphasis on going a full tip, or even more when this video shows just a slight adjustment can completely change the trajectory of the cue ball. Great video!
Yep! : ) Just as easy as ya show it!!! Some will practice it and "find" ... others will try but didn't pay attention and want to still argue, sadly - maybe even mad about it. Gotta pay Attention, gotta Listen, and gotta Practice! Another great and informative vid. Thanks! Be Safe
I’m glad you liked it. You’re welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
……Thank you Dr.Dave and Happy Holidays Christmas 🎄
You're welcome, and ditto!
Great vid!
However, there's one or two things that you might not have mentioned.
1) The ability to hit less or more of the object ball due to SIT, thus helping to give cb different trajectory.
2) Using Spin to help hold the cb on slight cut shots (10-20°)
For example:
If you have a 15° degree cut shot to the Side Pocket, and you need to hold the cb as much as possible, one would think that outside spin would be best, as it allows you to hit MORE of the object ball due to SIT, and make it easier to hold cb.
I find the opposite is true.
A little bottom inside seems to help hold the cb by an extra 2-3" on these shots.
So sidespin can help to alter cb trajectory in certain shots, in certain ways.
But, your opening myth buster is still absolutely true.
Yes, I believe the point of Myth 1 is not to change the cue ball angle, but instead to reduce the required cut angle via SIT, thus in fact enabling one to have a different CB trajectory. As worded, I agree DD is correct, but it seems like a technicality. This absolutely comes up in some important shots, the most often one I see is when you absolutely need to play a dead stop shot, but you have a slight angle on the object ball -- SIT helps you get closer to a 0 degree cut and dead stopping the cue ball.
Good points. FYI, I have two follow-up videos planned dealing with the merits of both outside and inside spin.
BTW, I already cover them here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/inside/
@@DrDaveBilliards Thanks for the reply! I want to also say I love your content and thanks for making it!
Check out my follow-up video:
Why Outside and Inside Spin are Useful … Sidespin Myth Follow-Up
czcams.com/video/9TokaN0ghSA/video.html
Enjoy!
Thanks, Dr. Dave! This is something that I can never seem to convince people of. But, I can see why they are reluctant to believe it because there is something I have a hard time understanding about it. Maybe you can help me with this:
It seems contradictory to me that spin (left or right) alters the path of the OB but does not alter the path of the cue ball. I watched the follow up video too. And the fact that CIS does not alter the path of the cue ball is especially surprising because it seems to be essentially the same as the spin imparted to the OB (which does alter the path of the OB).
I *believe* it. But I would like to understand it intuitively (in terms of physics).
The sidespin rubs on the OB sideways creating throw off line; but the equal and opposite rub on the CB is in the tangent line direction (the direction the CB is already heading), so it doesn't change the CB direction.
Top quality info and demo's, as usual.
I'm glad you think so. Thanks.
This makes sense because when a spinning cue ball hits an object ball, the spin is simply transferred to the object ball. Because the object ball isn’t able to “push back” as the cushion would, the object ball cannot alter the direction of the cue simply by spinning. The object ball simply moves out of the way.
It does matter a little. See my follow-up video:
Why Outside and Inside Spin are Useful … Sidespin Myth Follow-Up
czcams.com/video/9TokaN0ghSA/video.html
Helpful. Great job.
I'm glad you think so. Thank you.
Myth 1 is surely true (debunked I mean) to the extent presented here. But spin induced throw can be used to contact the object ball in a different place than a center line hit, while still making the ball, sending the cue ball somewhere else than it would otherwise go. I use this to shoot stop shots on occasion when that would not be possible with a center line hit (not always successfully).... I imagine high level players probably use this technique to much better effect. Great video as always.
Good point. I will be covering subtleties like this in a follow-up video.
Great content Dave.
Thanks. I'm glad you liked it.
The begginning of the vide suggests that sidespin is not necessary, however it does allow to hit the object ball fuller and vary the path of the cue ball without touching a rail.
Agreed. I will doing a follow-up video that shows many “subtleties.”
I had to debunk myth 1 for my friend who was very adamant that sidespin affected the cue ball after contact. I used your trick of having sentinel balls around the pocket. He couldn't get the same motion from the cue ball by not disturbing the sentinels. Myth debunked!
Good job. Isn't pool science fun? :)
The difference between Dr. Dave and I is that if I tried that 8 ball cut, regardless of whether I hit the ball first or rail first, I'm sewering somewhere.
Yep, same, every time
For #1, you can change the cueball direction with side spin either by a) changing the contact point with throw (only works noticeably on softer shots) or b) after contact masse.
For #4, it's not "necessary", but it is helpful because it allows you to aim at the normal ghost ball on softer shots. Aiming thinner is often more difficult than just spinning it a little.
Good points. I cover these things some in this video:
czcams.com/video/ytFwsxJ3gA4/video.html
I’ll also cover them in the next two follow-up videos that I have planned.
Dr. Dave kicks ass.
Thanks.
I recently watched a CJ Wiley video he where discussed briefly why pro’s like Efren and O’Sullivan use side spin on every shot. It isn’t much side spin and it is mostly always inside spin. I have commented on this several times (to myself) after watching hundreds of hours of them in videos. CJ said he asked Efren about it one time, and the answer was to stop the induced side spin on the cue ball by hitting the object ball. I have to say it was an ah…ha moment when I heard this. I would love to know if this is a myth (induced side spin on the cue ball by hitting the object ball) or not.
It is certainly not true that “pros use sidespin on every shot.” If the CB will hit a cushion, sidespin is used to change the rebound angle. If you don’t want any change in rebound angle (because you like the direction the CB will head into and away from the rail), you need to use a touch of inside spin to prevent cut-induced spin on the CB from changing the rebound angle. Otherwise, the direction and amount of sidespin is chosen to make the CB go where you want it to go.
Thank you dr. Dave
You're welcome. Thanks for watching.
There are only three (3) games I have played for 30+ years:
Legend of Zelda NES, chess, and 8-ball.
Pool is the physical version of chess ❤
I think some of these myths are due to people not understanding that different billiards games are indeed different. In pyramid and kaisa billiards you do need to use side spin to throw balls in to the pockets. In snooker, generally speaking, even pros avoid using side spin unless necessary.
Aiming with spin is the most challenging thing for me. This video helps...along with some practice! My wife does not play with spin at all....i should have her watch this, she'd never beat me again...LOL!!
If you want help aiming with sidespin, see the videos and links here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/
Thanks Dr. Dave I'll watch it for sure.@@DrDaveBilliards
@@martinolson761 Enjoy!
Curious what size pockets you have, those frozen rail 8 ball shots you played hitting ball first and rail first wouldn’t go on the 41/8 predator pockets at my local place
My pockets are huge (5”). The shots will go on tighter tables. You obviously just need to be more accurate.
Use top spin if you can, backspin and side spin are to be used minimally. If you really want to get good at it english, play carom on a regular table. I have a reputation for being very good at banks, combos and caroms, and that is my secret.
I thought swerve was a separate phenomenon from deflection. I.e., I always thought squirt and deflection were synonymous. Is deflection really defined as the net effect of the two as stated in the video?
Some people use "squirt" and "CB deflection" interchangeably; but when most players refer to CB deflection, they are referring to how far off the CB is from the aiming line direction at the OB, in which case the "CB deflection" is the net effect of both squirt and swerve.
i'm kind of a "play by feel" shooter and always thought sidespin did actually affect cue ball direction. this might actually be gamechanging for me lol. keep 'em coming dave
I'm glad you learned something from the video.
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt outside spin transfer more energy to the object ball making it come off the cueball quicker thus maintaining its true course?
Im not on a table right now but if i hit two half ball hits with identical speed to barely fall into the pocket i feel if im using outside english the ball will, for example, barely fall to whereas no english the object ball would take a crap before it got there and not drop.
It does help the OB take its "true course" as long as you hit it in the right place (after CB deflection), but it does not get more speed from the spin.
@@DrDaveBilliards ok so technically it doesn't so what is happening is Im hitting the object ball fuller, since im throwing it in, and it does go faster because of that correct?
@@josheisert8380 Good point. If you hit the OB fuller, the OB gets more speed (for a given CB speed, regardless of the spin). But when you hit the CB with spin, the CB is given less speed (for a given stroke). Some of the energy goes into spinning the ball instead of sending the CB forward.
Now please do sidespin when the object ball is on the rail or shooting down the rail. Thx Doc
I already cover this topic in great detail via the videos and links here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/rail-cut/
Strongly disagree regarding #1 and 2. Your speed to spin ratio is wild, bring the speed down a lot and just use outside with draw to hold the spin and hit it a bit fuller than a half ball hit, you’ll see the cb will rebound wider with English. Also you can aim fuller and throw the ball in with outside to hold the cb which again will change direction pre-rail. On #2 I’m still puzzled why so many people are scared of inside English. I’m equally accurate with inside, center ball or outside, in fact took me much longer to master center ball since I was using English on most shots when I started out.
FYI, I will posting a follow-up video soon showing the subtleties of change in CB direction with sidespin. It is also covered here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/30-90-rules/sidespin/
Dr. Dave is a pool god, follow his sermon if you want to play Pool BETTER.
Technically, swerve and massé are different things. A swerve is really just a fairly normal low sidespin, while a massé is when you pound the que into the table, hence the name massé which comes from sledge hammer. A massé shot doesn't necessarily have to swerve. You can for instance use it to shoot the cue ball forwards, then have it stop and return to pot a ball that was behind it. Where I used to play, we had a rule that if the white was pocketed, it had to be placed in the kitchen and had to pass the head string before you could pocket a ball in the kitchen. I used to make this shot in those situations just to add a bit of flair. It came to be known as the Jo-Jo shot, after my name, Jo-Erlend, and because it looks like the jojo trick where you spin the jojo at the end of the string and then it comes back up. :) But the point is, that massé shot should ideally have no swerve at all.
Most massé shots have swerve (assuming the CB is curving and not going straight).
@@DrDaveBilliards: Yes, that's true. It's very difficult to _not_ swerve with a massé shot. But the point is that a massé shot is the shot itself and not the effect it has on the cue ball.
love your videos. do a video on russian biliards? or brazilian
I don't have access to a Russian Billiards table, and I am glad I don't ... that game is brutal! :)
Would it be more accurate to say that pros don’t use side spin when it is not advantageous?
Sounds fair to me. They don't use it unless it is necessary or advantageous.
Some people think that 2+2=5, "but this is simply wrong!"
DAM right!
This confirms that I use too much spin.😂
…..hurt me coming up. Once I got on ‘center’ or slightly off unless completely necessary my shot making /game got much better 👍 Cheers
Yep, I commented earlier about how I saw really good Filipino players using spin on a lot of shots - but the amount of spin was not as much as I, or others, would use. Their idea of how much spin to use was FAR LESS than what I see a lot of lower level players using. The same, though, goes for a lot of top players. If you watch and study their game you can see they are using spin, but it is not as radical as many players think.
Work on long potting only and with side spin long potting
In my experience 98% of all players get the first myth wrong - and need totally robust proof and mature ego / rapport with instructir to adjust their model. Of these to see the light, 90% will still believe side spin will change cb path on angled pots, so need to go through the proof process all over again
I also get a surprisingly large number of students who believe Myth 1 when they come to see me, hence the video. :)
I need to go through the straight shot proof with stop, follow, and also draw shots for their inner map to be templated to that of reality. Only when this template is in place for straight and also angled pots, does a player have any chance of properly improving their positional play... because they lose all their false equivalencies about why they incorrectly thought the cue ball went where it went. They also then only have the simple height / speed combo to control the cue ball.... instead of erroneously adding side spin into the calculation. @@DrDaveBilliards
Make it 99%. I believed it till today
But what if the cue ball is all sticky with beer or greased with chicken wing? 🧐
Then you better learn “bar rules:”
billiards.colostate.edu/resources/rules/bar-rules
Give me answer please two and 3 feet potting good but long potting is not good
There could be many reasons for this: vision center not aligned properly, stance not low enough, bad stroke mechanics, etc! The resources here might be helpful:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/eyes/vision-center/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stance/low/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/technique/
Thanks sir ji
I saw all viedos of center vision and all but when I used low stance used potting percentage is very low so I ignore the using of low stance
Dear sir my aim is almost correct but potting angle is not correct because when I stance not correct angle of potting
@@user-oy4of2up4c You might find the videos and info here helpful:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/aiming/dam/#advice
I have to disagree about gearing English not being helpful. Gearing english requires no aiming adjustments and you have the advantage of not dealing with cut induced throw.
That's all fine at a certain medium type speed, but hard to aim at both extremes
No aiming adjustments? What about squirt and swerve?
@@AppleGameification a tiny touch of gearing English does not make the cueball deflect as much as you are implying.
ALL english requires aiming adjustments. The reason we often believe otherwise is that the pockets are so big in pool that we can get away without noticing variables that do in fact exist - this all gets found out on a snooker table though. This is why some snooker pros play everything centre cue ball (barring changing cb path off a rail). As such we should choose our medicine: EITHER adjust aiming with no english / gearing, OR adjust the line of aim for english / gearing. Then stick with whichever method gives best results. In my opinion, players spend WAY too much time worrying about gearing and impact throw of the object ball. I spoke to a multiple world snooker champion about it who said: "I haven't got a clue - I just pot the balls"... a standard he no doubt reached using Dave's Hit A Million Balls aiming method!
Just noticed that there are two myth 4 lol
Yep. I should have checked the numbering more carefully in the final review.
Dr Dave, a good next topic/video would be on two rail kicks. Like the famous Z shot Mr Efren Bata Reyes made. Always difficult for me to judge, as the cue ball always comes off the second rail very tight. If you could please make a video on that, it would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks again for all the knowledge!
He already did
@@shannonbennett5692 I’ve seen the regular two rail kick shot video. But I’m referring to long rail, long rail two rail kicks.
I dont understand this video. At first u prove that side spin does not change the direction of the target ball but later in the video you say you can throw the ball in with sidespin. This is confusing to me.
Side spin does not change the direction of the "cue ball" upon impact on on object ball not unless it touches a rail obviously. Side spin however does change the direction of an "object ball" upon impact especially on low speed shots
The point of the video is that for a given contact point on the OB, sidespin does not change the direction of the CB (for a stun shot).
lol. Keep watching. It’s like trying to lean a difficult math problem. You won’t understand at first but after you keep watching “learning” the math problem. You gradually keep making progress in learning the ways to solve the problem.
I say this cuz I’m in the same boat, the first time I watch his videoes I’m left with what the fuck, now I’m more confused. But after the second and third time I start to grasp what Dave is explaining. There is a ton of info, don’t expect to grasp it all after watching it one time.
Go hunt your food with a spear
I would prefer not.
@DrDaveBilliards so how do I tell if the curving trick shots are real or fabricated? I've never seen a cue ball do this anywhere. Not even in my pool game app lol. And where can I see this happening live?
@@heads_together_crypto2422 Check out the videos I filmed with Florian "Venom" Kohler. I assure you all of this is real:
czcams.com/play/PLH9d4KFY28XvjfavLkmw8nIcWOiDH2GYc.html
If you want to see fabricated stuff, see my "POOL MAGIC - You Can’t Always Trust What You See" video:
czcams.com/video/Vz5frFbaZZY/video.html