Why Bakhmut matters: As Russia claims victory, Ukraine insists it has momentum • FRANCE 24 English
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
- How many lives lost so far in Bakhmut? Why?
Russia claims to have fully captured the eastern Donbas city while Ukraine spins it as part of the plan, with its forces elsewhere gaining ground to the north and south.
Kyiv long claimed the eastern Donbas city merely represented a symbolic trophy. But it also decided to duke it out. We ask why Bakhmut matters and what's next?
#UkraineWar #Bakhmut #Weapons
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the hard truth is a restaurant owner and a bunch of convicts defeated the Ukrainian army and took bakmut.
3 people saying the same canned statements they have always been claiming. Not really much of a debate. Bring on Douglas MacGregor for a real debate.
Lololol the Ukrainian bias on this show is simply 😂😂😂
Legacy media is failing to recognize the internet as a competitor.
U guys are not fooling anyone just to let u know this interview is a waste of time no information that's necessary is in this interview, sometimes we just need some truth and at no point u guys give us that u are a disappointment to media and news
The Only one who know's anything is the reporter who spoke of HEAVY LOSS of life and equipment from the Bahkmut flank offensive.
Not reporter - he is Georges KUZMANOVIC, President of 'République Souveraine'
It is not a real debate if all the debaters are not allowed to admit the hard truth.
If these sychophants told the truth they would melt.
It's not a debate when they're all on the same side
Hanna ,Give it a break and accept the loss.
I think Ukraine made a mistake not pulling out of the city months ago.
So did the angry moustache guy at Stalingrad.
@@dancotton13 stalingrad he never took leningrad
your gut feelings are nothing compared to decisions made based on factual knowledge on the ground. I THINK CZcams sofa sitters should keep their guts to themselves
@@mourka01 I totally made a mistake, thx :).
@@elisabethbrown6231 Lizzie keep your guts safe, please. Or come here to St Pete to soothe your nerves. It's a nice place,I can assure you. Maybe it will help you.
Not really a debate when all of the “ experts “ are on the same side are a trying to spin the defeat as a poor victory
Such a sad troll you are, Sergei
Oooh suddenly Bakhmut matters 😊 Bakhmut is gone. This bla bla bla won't change anything
😂😂😂
The onset analysis gives a more well rounded overview of the conflict. Some of the guest are clearly overtly bias against Russia
They're lieing to people Ukraine is doomed already
And one is very clearly biased against Ukraine. Funny you forgot to mention THAT. Maybe that is because of your own bias? Or because of your paymasters?
@@elisabethbrown6231 Lizzie, still bothering? Don't you accept my invitation to visit St Pete. It will really soothe your nerves.
The Yankee woman repeats the same propaganda. The other guests are more considered.
They had Haring for the USA and Kuzmanovic blathering Russian propaganda. Seems even to me. The idea sanctions should collapse any large country that was already isolated by corruption is silly Kremlin rhetoric. No one in the west that makes decisions expected that to happen. A collapse would be extreme so they make up a fake fight they can win. Haring is just the same thing in reverse. It's useful to see what they talk about for discussion.
So prisoners beat and ran the Ukraine army from their "Fortress"??
No, the prisoners were used as fodder to find the Ukrainian positions which professional Wagner troops would assault
Bakhmut matters because Zelensky, against NATO advice, poured cannon fodder into his precious "Fortress Bakhmut", sacrificed thousands of young lives for a place most analysts said was not strategically significant, and he lost. Churchill, he is not.
More importantly, we are told the victors are a demoralized, poorly trained, badly led bunch of convicts armed with spades. Well, that is one hell of a victory over the NATO trained, armed and advised lads. For NATO, it is Kabul 2021 repeated, hence the panic to turn to air power.
If Nato is so powerfull and Ukraine is so compitent and Russia has no ammo only shovels WHY is Russia still advancing and capturing Cities???
Bbbbeeecoz ruzzzzia collllectd ollll rezzzources they could and pushed 9 months for this pile of stones to put flag on it. What cities?
They're using hypersonic shovels!
Well done entertaining and spinning🤣 Only Georges Kuzmanovic spoke realistically.
Source, Melinda, Source... You dreamed those numbers!? Or you just made it up?
George once again cherry picks his information, which is sparse in content as usual and often unsubstantiated.
Why does the guest believe that the city is semi encircled ,, which there is no evidence of but she does not believe the Russians who said they control the city back by evidence. she is also saying if someone holds a street in your area they have some form of control of your area.
The more streets they hold, the more people and money is required to maintain control.
@@SpecialMuppetOperation
But they don't hold anything.
Bakhmut is in Russian hands.
Msm is doing damage control and will admit the loss in 2 weeks as with Mariupol.
Now that Ukraine has lost Bakhmut, many are switching to propaganda mode in saying; it's insignificant. Losing 100 thousand forces isn't insignificant, but that explains the point; to trap your enemy and weaken their manpower and weaponry. The city is in ashes, but they can be rebuilt Ukraine's forces can't, that's why this was a major loss for them.
Russia will never be in peace while occupying territories in Ukraine. The more atrocities Russians committed in Ukraine, the more crimes they will be committed against humanity. That’s the bottom line.
😅😅😅❤❤. You well nailed them.
Wrong! It has always been mixed - some say it is, others say otherwise from the beginning. US and UK military experts have been telling Ukraine to let go of Bakhmut as it's not worth it. Don't twist facts to suit your narrative and biases. Ukraine can make up for the lives lost with more sophisticated weaponries from countries and people sympathetic to it and more recruitment. Russia has lost more lives than Ukraine. Still, time to let go of Bakhmut for now after months of fighting as counteroffensive may start anytime soon.
sure Ivan. Go and have a coffee. I hear the weather is great in St Petersburg
@@alamisha8576 you mean spring counteroffensive yawn yawn
Have you seen reports from Ukrainian soldiers in last two months from Bakhmut? They were saying that they have to hide for most of the day because of constant artillery fire from Russians and they don’t have enough firepower to respond.
If 100k Russians died in the battle and the ratio is 1-3 it means at least 30k+ Ukrainians lost they lives in Bakhmut. Was it worth it to loose so many trained and experienced soldiers and lots of equipment and ammunition especially we know that West is running out of artillery rockets and ammunition…
Some analysts saying that lost Bakhmut battle might be the beginning of end for Ukrainian forces.
later on the ratio was more closer to 1 :1. and ukraine is lolsing their most experiecned and most well trained whereas russia is just losing their convicts.
Casualties are not death. Around 40 k Russians died since the beginning of the war. Around 15 perhabs in Bakhmut
@@Elfangorlanzhou 😮
Why would you report what Ukraine plans to do? You guys think this is a social media war? Why would Ukraine even Tell you their plans...
Melinda.....PROPAGANDA....non stop
4:46 they cut the most epic moment of that clip, the Fornite dance lol
Edit: Oh, it's there at 10:09
Russia claims to have fully captured the eastern Donbas city while Ukraine spins it as part of the plan, with its forces elsewhere gaining ground to the north and south. ahahahahahahhahha fantastic
bot
To whom is this analysis targeted. On social media everyone knows that the city has fallen
It only took the Russians 10 months
If take one day you will still have something to say, Russia still win
Game over.
Imagine having a wife that sounds like that Hanna woman 😂😂😂😂
I'd volunteer for the front.
WHAT IS THE TRUTH ... one-sided...one day we will know, as we have until now about past conflicts !
It's always been like this
I am very surprised the prisnors and mersineris can beat Ukraine. Is that true? Where is the Russians army?. Prigoshniv is not a general but a chef. I wish the peace prevail soon.
eris
Quite interesting n informative n entertaining debate n well done to all!
How come it's a debate if everyone parroting each other.
It is not a debate when you only have one side to the debate, which is what we have here.
The reporter reminds me of Mariupol. What mission is accomplished?
Even Koffman, who is considered one of the most reputed military analists, said after his vistit a few weeks ago to Bakhmut that the exchange ratio in casualties had changed against Ukraine. Like the example of Verdun, the Germans thought it was their opportunity to "bleed to white" the French. At the end, in spite of the French casualties, they had similar losses and lost the ground.
Even now it’s not really clear that the Germans had a strategy to cause huge casualties in Verdun without taking Verdun. Likewise it’s very unclear what the strategy of the Ukrainians is in Bakhmut.
But it does appear that Ukraine threw away the advantage they first had in Bakhmut, when they appear to have killed many more Russians than Ukrainians were killed. The problem seems to be that Ukraine was worried about the psychological consequences on the Ukrainian army of losing Bakhmut because of Russia’s taunts that their real objective was Bakhmut
The real problem is that Russia is prepared for this war in a way that Ukraine and the West are not. This is no joke. Putin and Russians are prepared and confident in a way the West is not. Russia really wants war. This is the tragedy of the situation just as Germans under Nazi rule really wanted war and they literally had to be crushed in order to persuade them to stop
Can Russia be crushed? It’s looking like they won’t stop unless someone does crush them, but who can do it? Unfortunately China is on their side. China was kind of on the Wests side in World War 2 but not now
Most reputed analist ??
😁😁😁😁😁😁😁
Omg.....
poetic victory
@@M88881 ok we see you have an obsession with anal sex
@@insertrelevantmeme9219 since when was war poetic?
one side has 6 times more ammunition lost more soldiers, that can only fool the toddlers. These guests are out of their mind!😂
Bakhmut is being compared with Stalingrad but it much more clearly resembles Verdun, 1916...a salient around a fortress complex that held political and historical significance for France. The fortresses at Verdun were good defensive positions and the natural solution would have entailed attacking the "neck" of that salient in combination. Rather, Von Falkenhayn used the opportunity to play with attrition and attacked the head of the salient itself to draw in French reinforcements but had surrounded the salient with massed artillery. The strategy was all about demographics. If Germany could pull off a 3/5 ratio of their casualties to the French, they would bleed the French white and force them out of the war. Verdun never fell....but the French army nearly did...as we see in 1917. Is that what we have been watching in Bakhmut?
well, Falkenhaym didn't actually plan that, it was a post failure excuse, because he had failed to take Verdun. Plus, losing x number of men doesn't tell you everything. If you lose 100 conscript's, it's not the same as losing 100 shock troopers
At least the guest in the studio is talking sense.
The dog has something to say…
i say give them American fighter jets making American planes flying around in NATO countries into targets that Russia can now hit and say we thought it was Ukrainians.
Wy we dont talk sbout peace? World goin crazy now
Thats true, some see this as a game. The world has gone insane. Before we know it, we will be choking in radioactive dust.
Because western are deep in this they can’t look at Putin if Ukrainian lost
Пані Шелест,good job!!!
Im from a nato country but stand with russia. Im fed up of my country spending billions$$$ from hard working taxpayers for Zelenski government that dont want to negotiate for peace but want to drag the west to his war.
does the m. hering not understand that coming to a serious discussion and just uttering onesided propagandalies just prooves how cheap she is? what she sais again and again: "you can have me for 1 silverling".
When the war started lol y'all said shovels
Bakhmut does not matter at all , but it is a city that Ukraine keeps poring in people who die , so Russia kept it that way as long as they could , if they could they would have not taken it . And Vagner is retreating the point of it is for Ukraine to send more soldiers there to die .
Soooooo Russia took 11 months to capture a small Ukrainian city completely on purpose and all according to plan? The Russians truly are brilliant strategists!
@@karsten11553 50 000 умерло украинских солдат
@@karsten11553 The Russians are brilliant - they took Bakhmut with convicts and shovels and defeated a NATO trained and supplied army.
@@johnadam2885 Convicts and shovels, eh? No wonder it took them 11 months....
@@karsten11553 Convicts and shovels, eh?
Indeed, that is what British intelligence said. Perhaps that is why it took 11 months.
The reason to stay in bakhmut was , according to special experts, to prevent further Russian advances towards north . Sounds reasonable to me
Reasonable thing was to retreat and regroup on a fortified line not holding a "non important" city with such losses.
@@dancotton13 you again pad ?
@@zeenat1196 But they said the city has no strategic importance while pumping thousands of lives and millions of $. So maybe that's why you shouldn't believe someone who lies for a living ?
@@emailtat5860 No good coffee today ?
WHERE IS ZALUHZNY
Blessings, peace and luck from California to Ukraine 🙏🙏✌🍀💙💛
The Outskirts(Ukraina transl. rus) are historically RUSSIAN lands that were illegally separated 100 years ago from Russia, first formally legally, and since 1991 have been actually separated.
RUSSIAN people have been living on these lands for 300 years, our relatives, who, after the Kyiv coup of 2014, are subjected to genocide by the Kyiv authorities and need protection.
You support the Nazi illegitimate Kyiv regime, which for 8 years discriminated against and killed the Russian population. Thousands of Russians were killed, tens of thousands were imprisoned, the rest of the Russian population was intimidated by the Nazi authorities. The Kyiv Nazis banned Russian education, banned Russian culture and are trying to ban the Russian language, which is spoken by 70% of the population of the Outskirts(Ukraina transl. rus).
But you don't care about the Russians. You support any Nazis, fascists and just killers who are ready to kill Russians.
You are all hypocritical.
Artyomovsk please use the Russian name and forward to the Peoples Republic of Flandres
We must never forget how 30 000 of starving and demoralized Russian convicts armed with nothing but shovels had suffered 40 000 casualties, yet still managed to surround and take the city of
Bakhmut from a professional Ukrainian army, which was equipped with the best gear NATO could offer, along with the best CIA intel and backed by billions of US taxpayers dollars.
So if the russian army is so good why didn't it take Kiev?
Great reporting love France 28
They sound like the Knight of Monthy Python that after missing all his limbs thinks he can still fight. 🤣🤣🤣
How many NATO train Ukrainian army brigades lost to prisoners and private PMC
only the guy in the studio talk sense,- and not the host
All those commentators who says that Bachmut captured. Are you telling this because you are on Bachmut street right now with pms wagner? If not, what is your source of information?
Whum we have to belive
I think that legally if a Russian aircraft launches a missle in Russian airspace and it is headed into ukraine.. there is grounds to take out that Russian aircraft, the pilots in the aircraft that set the fish free had a choice to launch with intent. But ground targets are another situation.
22:00 the ukrainians freed 3 large regions without aircraft, kyiv, kharkiv and kherson.
All speculation, bravo.
Rex u r so inspiring,,???
12:40 This sounds a bit desperate
A private group defeated NaTO trained troops with all the sophisticated weapons. The shovels used by this private group. God bless this private army. Next battle you would get nukes in your tool box. Russia was holding back. The west are begging for nukes. It is time to drop nukes in the west. Japan had it in the east. Now it is europe’ turn to experience nukes. The law of alternation is true in the planet.
If Russia really has nukes they will be using it already
I somehow want your desire to come true, so you can experience what you wishing for.
Hate and contempt empower your enemies 🎉 🔥 🎉.
Of cause FullSin did prepare for a long run as he has had a lot of gold which has been digging in Africa with help from PrigoSin.
😂 analysts talk about interpretation.
How about the interpretation that one paramilitary organization kick out Ukrainian army out of city. End.
The west 😂still cooking a war,,, the question is are we heading to the nuclear war 😢?
Yes. Moscow have Poseidon on start.
Russia's been fighting with one hand tied behind their back.
Hey France, we need a global bill of human rights. Can we please get that setup so our global government doesn't get oppressive?
10:06 😂🤣
What is direct confrontation bw Russia & NATO....???
Hello.
Talk about biased......
Bakhmut is over ashes now!
There is no S-500
Really?
Very good to see Melinda, one reason why I have decided to view this video after seeing her photo. Either way, well done indeed FARNCE 24 ENGLISH inviting Melinda! USA
😂😂😂😂😂
She’s a bias propagandist warmonger, nothing but bias news here
British training is superb !
You are missing Pregosians intention to own the Solidar Salt mines after the war. This requires a Russian win. This was his motive and strategy.
When zelensky loose bhakhmut it’s a part of strategy 😂😂😂😂.. he is the one who said that we will not leave Bhakhmut and will do everything to defend Bhakhmut… see this is a zelensky’s lie … now suddenly change his word 😂😂😂
😂😂😂😂😂
Like poo-poo-tin said he will never leave Kherson?
@@marilenaganea6578 Like you guys are so cringe when you loose.
@@dancotton13 I don't care who win or lose... I just don't like hypocrisy
@@marilenaganea6578 "I don't care who win or lose"... well, that is odd coming from someone who doesn't like hypocrisy.
The more I hear of the ground work the UDF is doing, the more I feel they will roll over the Russian lines like an angry wave
if it was part of the plan then why did they sacrafice 60,000 ukraine soldiers, they all dead.
Вот врут...когда Белгород был украинским?Вы что там курите?😂😂😂
Bah forget this Belgorod story. It´s just drunk mobiks having taken the wrong turn.
Zelensky is even smaller than the japanese.😂
are you in kinder garden?
Symbolic that it took Russians 9 months to capture a town of minor strategic importance. Losing 100k Russian's in the process 🤣😂 Why exactly is this being seen in a positive light for the Russians? Talk about being pot committed. 🤣
truth will come out no matter what. temporary gains in the youtube warfare will only do so much.
In 1954 everything was USSR
Counter-offensive is beginning with hybrid Grey Zone . .when it goes kinetic we'll all know about it ...I'll guarantee you that.
Slava 🇺🇦
I lasted 16 minutes
All I heard was biased opinion.
Prigozhin is a confused man 😊
8.36._The language of this man is the perversion and the distort of language. The Russian victory in Bakhmut is not a "symbolic victory" because Bakhmut is the door to Kramatorsk and Sloviansk. The victory in Bakhmut is a real victory because it is a strategic victory. Evidently it was not a "symbolic victory" for Russia because there were 25,000 dead Ukrainian soldiers in Bakhmut and according to Prigozhin 32,000. On the contrary, the Ukrainian raid in Belgorod was a "symbolic action". It cannot be matched Bakhmut with Belgorod. The action of Belgorod was a complete defeat for the Ukrainians: only 1 day and 70 dead Ukrainians soldiers.
3.34._The big difference is that France kept Verdun, but Ukraine lost Bakhmut.
4.46._What is this journalist talking about? Russia has taken all of Bakhmut. The battle is over. Russia won this battle. It was a big defeat for Ukraine.
😂😂😂😂plz
The lady doesn't portray right image
25:17 I'm sorry but Alexander Vautravers' analysis that Russia soon won't have military aircraft to fly within a year, it lacks professional officers, ammunition etc would probably make sense in a different world. In this world, a state the size of Russia and possessing such resources doesn't just fall apart within a year or two in a war like this. The one time Russia suffered such a devastating situation in recent history was in WW1 - facing two empires, Austria-Hungary and Germany, both technologically more advanced with huge economies and a combined populations 46 million less than the Russian empire as opposed to roughly a difference of a 100 million against Ukraine whose economy it has already destroyed substantially. Even then it took about 3 years of large-scale strategic defeats for the Russian side to pull out of the war and accept defeat.
I too want Ukraine to win the war and expel the Russian army, regain its territorial integrity and get reparations but we live in this world where our desires don't always become a reality. Russia has been in fact mobilizing ever more factories for its war machine, working 3 shifts, China and other countries keep delivering chips and other technological know-how. As much damage as the sanctions have done to its economy Russia hasn't defaulted, it hasn't run out of ammunition and is in fact prob producing more.
Either the West should start giving Ukraine like 5 times more weapons and bracing for potentially nuclear escalation or start looking for diplomatic solutions, as painful as they may be for Ukraine. But it looks like official policy at least in the WHite House is just to help Ukraine 'sustain' the war - no matter the human loss and suffering it brings with it. It'll 'weaken' Moscow (and teach a lesson to China) and maybe Ukraine can even gain something - might be their thinking.
It's a choice to make for us in the West. I don't have an answer, maybe giving more weapons to Kyiv is the right choice but then it will only force Moscow to double down as it has been so far doing. Putin is for sure not going to slink away in despair. And a diplomatic settlement, at least some may be unacceptable for Ukraine. But we in the West are responsible first of all for what we can have effect on - our policy and actions.
You said it all! The worst part of this entire tragedy is that it could've been avoided. Ukraine was sold (and keeps getting sold) the lie of everlasting protection by the U.S. Now governments, media and even academia in the West are consistently spreading reductionist and even deceitful narratives to their own people (russians are fighting with shovels, morale is low, Bakhmut is a draw). While telling the Ukrainian people to fight to the last man against an enemy they cannot overcome instead of directly and proactively engaging with the Kremlin diplomatically for the sake of the UKR people. It's sad.
Ukraine's runways must be repaved for the F16s. Russia will see this and know where to bomb. Air to air missiles for F16s cost $1.2 million and take 2 years to manufacture.
Yeah, Ukraine is winning the war, Russia don't have any logistics, fuel , ammunition and moral. It's just how you look at it. Keep up the real reporting. 👍👍
You're being deceived😂😂
my friend look at a before and after photo of Backmut who was there when it was green where did those people and the trees go all dead
Ya Russia just don't have any gas or ammo
Its morale, not moral which Ukraine is lacking now along with artillery amongst others.
Yes, the nation with the largest oil and gas reserves in the world is out of fuel
d Ukrainians has been fighting a tactical strategy game in Bakhmut. Some 100k Russians have died there. Ukraine's aim was to wear out d Russian by depleting Russian Ammo, n
human resource. 1 thing we'll C is d familiar marking of won battles of d Russians. U can C it in Bakhmut that their leaders fed them thru d meat grinder by way of sacrifice. If U R to
investigate Russian battles won in WW2, generally they were won @ great expense in terms
of lives lost.
I love cope vids.
The new weapons are mostly weapons built to NATO interoperability standards. As long as the Ukrainians are adequately trained on them and have a ready supply of ammunition, they should do well.
что получится ?