Black Powder vs. Triple Seven
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- čas přidán 25. 08. 2024
- In this video, I compare traditional black powder to it’s popular substitute, Triple Seven. Keep in mind that Triple Seven creates more pressure than black powder, so the velocity and energy will be higher. In the video, I instruct to reduce a Triple Seven charge by 15%, compared to a black powder charge because that will nearly match the performance of black powder. However, it can also be used at a 1:1 volume ratio to black powder for faster velocity and more energy. Just be sure to research the limitations of your firearm before using it at a 1:1 volume ratio to black powder. Be sure to subscribe to my channel for more videos. Thanks for watching!
Here’s a link to my video on cleaning a cap & ball revolver after using either of these powders: • How To Clean A Cap-And...
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Glad I found this video. Have Just started using black powder and have a great deal to learn! Hope I find MORE of you video's.
Thanks for watching!
I think you should have compared the 15% reduced Triple Seven, as that is recommended to duplicate black powder pressures, against the full 20 grain black powder load. Great video! 👍
Just picked up a pound of T7 today. Good info.
Where did you get it?
Wow, I don't remember when we used it in our shows being as smokey as BP. They must have improved it. Something to consider for the future. Thanks, Dustin! Neat chronograph, too.
Thanks, Santee! The chronograph is way too much fun! It makes me paranoid though that I’m gonna shoot it. LOL!
I can appreciate the fair comparison between powders in this video. However, I haven’t really found any videos that demonstrate the true ballistic capabilities of these arms when loaded with max loads of triple 7. I have shot hundreds of these loads through my Pietta 1858 Remington without issue, usually generating around 500 ft-lbs of energy. I typically use 40 grains under a 200 grain Lee conical, or 42 grains under a .454 lead ball. I use these loadings as a backup when hog hunting with my Hawken style muzzleloader. The 15% reduction recommended by Hodgdon is intended to duplicate a certain familiar blackpowder load for accuracy and predictability, not for safety. Triple 7 will not rupture a cylinder on these style revolvers at any loading, provided the barrel is unobstructed. There is a caveat that brass frame revolvers will show stretching and wear with these loads at the frame. These loads begin to approach the .357 magnum in terms of energy. Some accuracy will generally be sacrificed at this loading, but for some purposes, the stopping power is preferred over the extra precision, particularly when intended for use at relatively short ranges in a defensive scenario.
Sir 40 grains in your 58 Remington is an over load, even if uou were using BP instead of triple 7. That load would be on the high end fir a Ruger Old Army.
Why the fuck would you use a unreliable blackpowder gun when your life is on the line, pack a 44 mag
@@aksel487 could be it's your only legal choice.
I use 22 grains of T7 normally and sometimes up to 27 grains in my .36 navy. Never had an issue. These revolvers are at minimum 3x stronger than what they originally were, when they were made from wrought iron. Steel is more fracture resistant than iron, and with a much stronger tensile strength. It would be hard to explode one of these cylinders using black powder or t7. Wrought iron has a tensile strength of roughly 7,500-10,000. Steel has a MINIMUM tensile strength of 30,000. With most steel being of 50,000 psi tensile strength. Just another old wives tale. Oh and as for the Ruger old army. They would test those with smokeless before they left the factory and were made from the same steel as the Ruger security six. So sorry, but you are misinformed.
@@user-jb8fx8sb4e that's not how firearms work. the strength comes mostly from design, not the materials, there's a reason the blackhawk can be loaded way hotter than a colt clone, and it isn't different material.
Thank you for pointing out the differences in pressure between both compounds. I would love to do this as a college chemistry experiment.
I use 20 grains of Triple 7 in both my 1851 Navy and 1860 Army. Both are in 44 cal. For my Colt Walker, which has a much larger capacity, I use 50 grains of the same powder.
Well? How does that work out for you? Power? Accuracy? Velocity?
I like 777. I use a 50gr. by volume charge of FFg in my reproduction 1861 Springfield. Shooting a .575 Minie ball is nice and pleasant and it cleans up easily. I have never had ignition issues with 777 using musket caps.
Great Vid Dustin. Although next time you might want to use a BBQ stick lighter to set off the powder, you don't shave your hands that way LOL. Thank you, and good shooting.
LOL! Thanks for watching!
Was unloading my 18-49 pocket revolver and dumping the loose powder into an old Altoids can all together after dumping all five Chambers I had roughly a hundred grains of pyrodex in the Altoids can, later onI was smoking a cigarette and completely forgot about the Altoids can with the powder in it had to leave really quick so I slammed the cigarette butt into the can to put it out quickly and it flashed up so quickly gave me 2nd degree burns all over the tops of my fingers. Lesson learned dump old powder from cylinders into water
I'm new to black powder.
The only powder I managed to get my hands on is Triple Seven. I shot 10 full cylinders with no issues yesterday and all the fouling wiped off with some damp patches, very easy to clean.
I'm still on the lookout for actual black powder so I don't deprive myself of the full experience :)
Powder valley .com sells goex fffg the downside is they charge 30 bucks for hazmat fee PLUS 5bucks for a signature required fee.so 35 bucks to send it to you...myself I'm a sort of a purist I only use goex fffg in my pistols with Remington caps.thats it that's all. 30 grains Everytime...good luck to you hope your new hobby brings you joy
@@Mikegastaldo Your not the only one. I have tried a few substitutes. They were all ok, and the closest to real Black Powder in my personal opinion is Pyrodex, but I decided to finally go ahead and lay down the money for the REAL DEAL. I just couldn't continue using a substitute when one American Black Powder factory is still in operation and could use my support. I decided it was worth the cost, and am more than happy. Worth every single penny to get the exact same smell and experience that they got so long ago, back in the civil war era and even before. If you want to get the exact same historical experience you simply have to get THE original Gun Powder. GOEX Black Powder is the one and only way I shoot now. My other cans of substitutes are just stored away as extra.
@@dtnetlurker I previously responded that powder valley was a resource to buy black powder and it is..BUT I discovered a company by the name of MIDWAY USA that has much better price on it.much better..and they also sell goex fffg old eynsford match grade black powder.that shoots real .real nice.hope this helps.enjoy your hobby all the best
@@Mikegastaldo Yeah Midway does sell it. I have used their site before. They sell out extremely quick though and can take a long while to restock it.
The velocity increase was 29% at least I can find triple 7 around here.
Glad I saw this. I have my 1851 coming in the mail right now and was going to use 25 grain for my brass frame. Definitely will drop it to 20 for this. Dont want that frame warped. 😆👍
Thanks for watching!
@@GunsOfTheWest thanks for posting content for newbies like me!
You bet!
Great content, I love the chrono spreadsheet... thanks for all the great content
Thank you for doing all of these things. You are saving us a lot of time trying to find out on our own. Seeing is beleiving. THANKS
My pleasure!
Great comparison thank you for showing this I appreciate it very much!
thanks so much Dustin.... really great vid this morning....
You’re welcome! Thanks for being such a frequent viewer of my channel!
To simplify the head math, reducing the charge by 15% works like this: Take the normal amount of black powder you use in a charge and move the decimal point over to the left.
For example-- if you are using 30 grains of black powder, move the decimal point and you get 3.0 grains. That is 10%, so half that amount again (1.5 grains) and add it to the mental total (3.0 + 1.5 = 4.5) to reduce the charge by that amount, 4.5 grains.
17 grains of black powder: 1.7 + 0.8 = 2.5 (so reduce the charge by 2.5 grains or just fudge it to 15 grains instead)
wow we live in an age where basic math must be explained lol. man oh man sigh
Of note is that Triple Seven, unlike Pyrodex or black powder, is incompressible so you can't force a ball down on a slight overload.
Thanks again for the opportunity and I look forward to my first class of the way and I
I'm new to BP and find your videos very helpful and informative. In this video it looked like the T7 barrel was more fouled than the BP. I originally was only interested in BP rifles but after seeing some of your videos I am definitely interested in BP handguns as well. Thanks very much.
You could always start with a BP revolving carbine (if you can find one.) Or, a Wyatt Earp or Buffalo long barrel .44 fitted with a buttstock. I got my brother into BP handguns like that; originally he was only interested in BP rifles.
@@RockandrollNegro
Thanks very much for the input, I really appreciate it. I bought a Hawken 50 cal rifle and a 1858 Remington revolver BUT I haven't shot either one yet, lol. I just got them and I'm itching to try them out. I am already interested in a carbine. I own a Circuit Judge rifle in 45lc/410 and it reminds me of the BP carbines in design a little bit. Happy holidays and best wishes.
Some of those black powder pistols and rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy, and depending on what type of bullet you use, can produce outstanding power compared to smokeless modern arms and ammo.
@@blueduck9409
Yes, I see that. They really are amazing. Thanks.
I was just reviewing these powders for loading information but the two I have are Pyrodex and Triple 7. I have a label on my Triple 7 to reduce the charge by 15% too and since BP and Pyrodex use the same charge I think I'm safe all around.
Good to know there's so much difference
Excellent video ....iv been using 777 for years for revolver n pistol hunting I don't recommend this but I'm my ruger old army i load a full 40 gr charge and 220 gr conical it spits it out right around 1300 fps which power wise puts it into .41 mag range with a tko factor approaching .44 mag. Or 50 gr with .457 round ball it spanks the 158 gr .357 mag booty. In my plains pistol 40 gr of 777 3f and a patched 230 gr round ball I got 1200 fps putting par on energy and tko wise with a Winchester 240 gr .44 mag. In my plains rifle i spit out a 530 gr mini ball with 60 gr of 2f at 1460 fps which approaches the .577 snider round. With 80 gr the recoil was no longer fun and it spit same mini ball out at 1622 fps I think that load would take anything that stood before it but not fun to shoot...again I was hot loading with 777 I do not recommend this I have good ol Elmeir Keith spirit watching over me 😁
Nice!!
I do the same with my cap and ball revolvers! 35grains of 777 and a 255 grain conical. Around 1000ft/s and hits with 740ft/lbs! I modified a frontier mold to produce my projectiles. Love your channel ROAG! Elmer would be proud!!!
@@poncholefty471 Thank you. Happy Halloween. 🧡🖤🧡
@@JoanieKennedy you as well!
Thank you for this video, I've been wondering how much of a difference these powders had
You’re welcome! Thanks for watching!
Appreciate you taking the time with that
Very nice with a data
My pleasure! Thanks for watching!
Great job, well done sir. I have used both since about 1970 and always wished I had the numbers you just produced. I have noted that it takes a hooter cap to reliably ignite the BP substitutes. Many recommend Remington caps for this reason. However it is becoming difficult to find them.
Thanks for watching! Is there a Sportsman’s Warehouse near you? That’s where I usually buy my Remington caps.
No, I live in Avon Park, Florida.
777 generates more pressure than BP due to it's higher ratio of gas versus solids when fired, being perchlorate/ascorbic acid based. I too found 777 and Pyrodex loads won't always ignite using standard primers. A solution is to prime the chamber first with 3-4 grains of good PB (Goex), then load your substitute powder over it. I wouldn't do this in a Colt 1860, but an 1851 Rem or ROA will be fine
Please clarify, that if you want to replicate the FPS and velocity of a black powder load, you should reduce by 10 to 15%. As for actual loading, I have yet to find anywhere that actually says you should reduce all loads by this amount, in fact if you read the loading instructions on that can of 777 you have, it will tell you to load grain for grain (by volume) the same as black powder. One of the benefits of 777 is increased charges from the same amount of powder. If you can provide an actual statement from Hodgdon saying to reduce the loads I would love to see it.
I may not have been clear about that. The 15% reduction is to match the performance of black powder. Otherwise, Triple Seven can be used in higher volumes, but research should be done to know the limitations of each firearm when doing that. Thanks for watching!
Great review! 👍🇺🇸
I got into black powder shooting last year i didn’t know that triple 7 was a magnum load so to speak. So I ended up shooting about 200 rounds loaded with 30 grains of it. I can imagine the pressure and stress on my colt revolver was extreme however the frame isn’t stretched.
Brass frame? What revolver did you use?
@@humansvd3269 steel frame
I didn't know there was that much power difference between those two. I may have to buy myself a pound of it and try my luck at it.
I had heard there was a difference, but I didn’t know it would be that much either. Thanks for watching!
Always very informative.
Great Job.
Great video!
Thanks!!
its says to use a 15% reduction to reproduce the same amount of black powder , but in my testing its only goex that you need to do this with because swiss is stronger than 777
Dustin: I use 20 grains of Triple Seven in my 1851 Navy, 36 caliber. Do you think that is too much?
If the gun has a steel frame, you’re probably ok. If the frame is brass, I would use less.
This is a great video. Thanks for sharing God bless.
Thanks for watching!
Yep, I had no idea there was that much of a difference either.
Thanks for watching!
Might I suggest a match by which you hold over the powder and then drop while pulling your hand back quickly... great video!!
I’ve heard people say there is more variation in triple 7 velocities depending on how much you compress it whereas it isn’t as much of a deal with pyrodex and black powder, is there a way you could do a video testing this?
Thanks!
it very little variation from what i tested in my walker with a 50g vs 40g charge
Thanks for another interesting video.
You bet! Thanks for watching!
Just so you know, burn rates in open air does not give indication of performance of powder confined. An example would be compare smokeless shotgun powder burning in open air to black powder. A person may tend to believe black powder is faster based on this test but we know otherwise.
Great video! I've never found triple seven locally so I've never tried it but I have tried pyrodex and found the clean up to be extremely gummy compared to real BP. You said the clean up was comparable, was the triple seven gummy like pyrodex?
I've always used 777 and never found it to be gummy upon cleanup. It's not that bad to clean.
Another great video. Getting back into muzzleloaders so this is a big help
Super. Thanks
You said that 15 grains of BP was a light load for the 51 navy, using the same T7 15g load I would like to see how a regular load of BP would compare on the croon graph.
20 grains of 3Fg would be about the same as the videos triple 7.
Thank you for taking time to do this. It helped me very much. Does Tripple 7 smokes like black powder?
It’s still pretty smokey.
great video,,,,,,helped me a lot,,
Might have been good to mention that 777 may be harder to ignite. I know my own experience with my .54 rifle, this difference is quite pronounced.
I sometimes have half a second of failure to fire when using standard caps with 777. When using standard caps with 777, the nipple tends to plug up after 10ish rounds.
Thank you
You bet! Thanks for watching!
Well, that covers velocity. I wonder if there is any accuracy difference? And, how about full powder charges of 777 compared to reduced loads? Some pistols, like the one made by ruger, can safely handle the full 777 load.
i dont believe it ive never seen a substitute more powerful than black powder
Triple Seven and Pyrodex are both more powerful than black powder.
@@GunsOfTheWest that's funny. I shot black powder rifles for decades and for example shooting 50 cal i had to use 100 grains of pyrodex to get the same results as 75 grains of olde eynsford. never used triple 7.
Awesome amazing what triple seven does
I haven't had any issues with 30gr of 777 in a Pietta 1860, 1858 behind 200 gr. Lee conicals.
Very good video, thanks for the info! Thumbs up!~John
Thank you, thank you thank you my friend. Amazing results. I'm curious, Is Shokey Gold the same as Triple 7? P.S. Congrats on the Chrony. Mine is nearly 30 years old and has the scares to prove it.
You’re welcome, my friend! Thanks for watching!
I don’t have any experience with that powder, but I’ll gladly do a video on it if I find some.
Gracias!
Ê
I load 35 grain of 777 with ox yoke wad and a .454 hornady round ball in my 1860 army.
Thanks for watching!
Thank you for another great video. How is Triple 7 compared to Pyrodex? Which is better, or are they kind of same substitutes? I really want real black powder, but in Sweden it´s easier to get Pyrodex, at least now from a shop that has it and still sells it without any license. I know I am too late on this video, but wanted to ask anyhow. Keep up the good work you do.
They both work fine, but Triple Seven is more powerful. Thanks for watching!
@@GunsOfTheWest Thank you for your fast answer. I wish you a great weekend.
Very interesting!
Thanks for watching!
This really help me, im used to shot goex fffg but I can find it anywhere and I was desperate looking for another option and now I know i can get 777 and will be the same result
I have tried substitutes, liked them especially Pyrodex but once I decided to pay up for several pounds of the REAL thing. I quickly stored those away as extra. Only the real 100% authentic and original gun powder for me now. There is not a single substitute made that duplicates it. To get the real experience you have to get the real thing.
That smell you get . . . that's what history smells like.
Like a great politician BP vs substitute. See clean vs dirty Same 🤣😂🤣
is triple 7 FFg recommended for the Remington navy 36 caliber or would a FFFG better suited for short barrelled revolvers?
smaller bore = smaller grains = faster burn
The 777 seems to burn a tad slower than the pyrodex did in your other video. I wonder if that makes the velocity better. I might have to go to 777. I heard Pioneer is better in that it creates its own lube so to speak from its own fouling. Is that true?
Hey Dustin have you ever considered making your own blackpowder?
Awesome!! Thank you!!
How about FFG 777 vs FFFG 777
I used FFG 777 with good results.
Nice video. It would be perfect if you would add conversion to metric units for the rest of the world!
Where did you get your hat? Looking for some civil war/western hat wear.
J.W. Hats in Salt Lake City, Utah.
I hope it works for people. I can't get reliable detonation out of triple seven in mine. Always 3 or 4 caps to get it to go off. Seems to be fine with 209 primers. But the #11 & #10 just don't seem to burn hot enough.
I hate triple 7 with a passion. It has delayed ignition if it even ignites.
God it sucks that Black MZ is once again out of production. Has me searching for another substitute when I was totally happy with Black MZ. I'll use either 777 or American Pioneer Powder I guess....
Jim Shockley's Gold (also Alliant brand I think) is very very close in formulation to Black MZ. It (Shockley's Gold) is still in production.
Amazing Video.. That will help me alot ! Thx :-)
Thank you!
I could immediately see the strikes on the hillside were considerable distance higher!
Question Does Allient make a 3F MZ powder didnt ask at that video thot I should watch this first. Thanks for the data from these experiments
Right now, it’s only available as a 2F substitute. Thanks for watching!
I have only found FFG Also I believe it has been discontinued
Great comparison. In my area BP is almost impossible to get but 7 is easy sometimes to get I have been using the 7 & pyro it's ok lots of people making their own powder now but only the true die hardest of them and make lube from 🐝 Wax and lamb fat work's good little more than I am interested in but like I said their diehard BP guys. Have fun I will show this to them see what they say.
Bonjour du sud de la France... Comment se fait-il qu'au usa la poudre noire soit si difficile à trouver ? Bonne journee
Hi
The company that makes black powder went out of business. And the swiss powder has been reclassified so in some states not allowed to buy or sell it so just make it your self if you want or get the substitute. I'll just make it nothing hard. Just make small quantities so you don't get throw into another state. :)
It's in the name triple 7. Its .777 grains is equal to 1 grain of black powder.
This helped
I've watched this vid a few times. Been looking for it,but can't find it.
Alsome video. Might have to get some triple 7 now
Triple Seven is way more powerful, good video.
Can you use this triple 7 for the 32 winchester special
Hi , I have a question, I can't find the answer to. Can I use triple 7 ffg in my Remington New army?
Can you use 2f in a pistol? Never seen that test
Smokeless powder burns even slower
Amazing review. I own a derringer 54 cal muzzleloader, 4 inch barrel. would you recommend this kind of powder for every muzzleloaded weapon? Cheers.
Looks like you'll get more shots per can with the 777.
super!
At this point, I shoot Pyrodex because that's what I have available. I haven't had a problem cleaning.
Does 777 have to be compressed to be safe? I am interested in loading cartridges for .45 LC and want to know if I need a wad on top or not.
Also, is 777 corrosive like BP? How long can I go after shooting before cleanup?
It is NOT recommended to use 777 in brass cartridges like tye .45 colt. The wad will eliminate, or grately reduce barrel leading. Yes, 777 is hydroscopic, like all black powders, and you would be wise to clean any firearm that has been fired with any kind of black powder, including 777. For black powder cartridges, you can use Goex,or regular Pyrodex safely, and they must be compressed. Use lots of bullet lube when making those cartridges. Bore butter, or Dustin's bullet lube works great.
Great video. Two questions.
1) Does black powder lube have to be used with 777?
2) Can powder coated or Hitek coated bullets be used with 777? Thx
I was always concerned about what it takes to clean a gun after using black powder or pyrodex. I believe that black powder is a little easier to clean than pyrodex. I may need to try a pound of triple seven substitute to see if it is easier. What do you think is the best substitute for the purpose of cleaning - pyrodex or triple seven? Thanks for the fine and informative video.
Pyrodex is nasty, so I’d say Triple Seven. It wasn’t hard to clean. Thanks for watching!
anything is better than pyrodex. I find that it cakes up and is pretty hard to fully remove in certain situations. Black powder fouling just melts away with ballistol and water mixture. can't speak to triple 7, but i imagine it's still better than pyrodex.
Triple Seven. I have a long history of using black powder and substitutes. Generally I prefer black. If you stick with natural lubes, cleanup is with soap and water. No worse than doing the dishes. If you use petroleum based products and lubricants you have to deal with much thicker and more tenacious fouling.
Pyrodex isn't as easy to clean. Triple 7 is much closer to black, in my experience.
Can I use pyrodex rs ffg in a 1851 44cal revolver?
Yes. It won’t have quite as much power as FFFg, but it will still work in a .44 caliber.
Ok, so I know that real black powder fouling and residue is corrosive and one should clean their firearm right after shooting or else the metal will rust. Is that the case with Triple 7? I generally don't clean my guns thoroughly after each range trip, only after a few hundred rounds (whether it takes me one session or 5). If I fired my guns with Triple 7 and put them away for a month, would I find a pitted bore and ruined bluing?
Like black powder, Triple Seven should be cleaned after each use. I’ve let them go a few days, but even that can cause some surface rust. When it comes to cleaning, I recommend treating this the same as black powder. Thanks for watching!
@@GunsOfTheWest Excellent. Thank you Dustin.
Thank you. Do you use regular caps with 777 or magnum caps? The nipple clogs on mine when I tried using regular caps with 777.
Now I know this is interesting question but If I may ask something. So Triple7 is a lot more powerful than Pyro and real BP ...
1. If in some small guns like Colt police 1862 or Navy's using Conical ball and then the max charges will be reduced ...can we fill it with Triple7 to substitute that loss (like...with ball 20 grain max and it reduced to 17 with conical can we fill 17 grains with Triple7 and be safe?)
2. In some small guns like Colt 1849 or pocket Rem. how to shoot it with more power but not actually blasting myself up? do I use Triple7 in them?
Can I assume that you measured the 777 by 15gr volume, and not by 15gr weight? This may have been only about 12gr of 777 by weight? Can I also assume the black powder was 15gr by volume?
Can u use triple 7 in a shotgun or 44 magnum
I’m curious if the triple 7 pellets would have the same result
Hi. I have seen black powder substitutes that require shotgun primers to ignite and are meant to be used in modern in-line muzzleloaders. Have you ever tried one of those powders? Do they really require a shotgun primer?
Is Triple seven safer to store than Goex?
How much would you reduce the 777 charge in comparison to the BP charge?
Thanks
Hodgdon says to use 15% less 777 than you would black powder.
Why 15 grains here are weaker then in the video testing 1851 navy loads with the same powder.
If prices are similar, 777 would save money.