We Must Go Back To Enceladus! Here's Why
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Enceladus is the most interesting world in our Solar System in terms of exploration potential. It just is. But at the moment there are no approved missions to come back there. In this interview I'm discussing a New Frontiers class mission concept, the Astrobiology eXploration at Enceladus (AXE) with Dr Marshall Seaton from NASA JPL.
🪐 Astrobiology eXploration at Enceladus (AXE)
iopscience.iop.org/article/10...
👉 More info about the mission concept:
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00:00 Intro
02:27 How does Enceladus feel like
04:45 Why go back to Enceladus
15:20 AXE mission concept
23:10 How should we search for life
29:03 Building a New Frontiers class mission
46:46 Other icy ocean worlds
51:08 How special is Enceladus
54:37 What's next for the mission concept
58:40 Career path for young scientists
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You are free to use my work for any purpose you like, just mention me as the source and link back to this video. - Věda a technologie
Hi, Marshall here - for those wondering, the units of the vent gas velocity should be at least around 500 METERS per second, NOT kilometers per second. When talking about Enceladus, I typically refer to spacecraft flyby sampling velocities due to my research focus (which are typically expressed in kilometers per second), so I just misspoke when speaking about plume vapor velocities.
Here's a wild idea. What about a sample return mission that doesn't involve orbiting around Saturn at all? Imagine a free-return trajectory that slingshots around Saturn to return to Earth, but on the way around Saturn it flies by Enceladus and goes right through the plumes. Particles from the plumes would be collected in something similar to the 2004 Stardust mission. You save fuel mass by not even trying to go into orbit around Saturn, just dive into the system, grab a sample without slowing down, and get slingshot out on a trajectory that will fling you back to the inner solar system. A cheap and dirty mission that dives in, grabs a sample, and comes back to Earth without the enormous fuel budget needed to return to Earth after entering into orbit around Saturn.
I thought so, at 500 kilometers per second or even 500 you wouldn't want to 'put your hand out'. As Frazer said. Love this discussion! Go Enceladus
Great interview Fraser! It was a pleasure listening to Dr. Seaton and gaining perspective in putting together a flyby mission. A lander with a mass spectrometer is a wicked idea! Definitely one of the extremely sick moons to visit in our solar system.
@@TanyaLairdCivilConsidering the mayhem a stupid bat virus has and continues to cause, I’m not sure a sample return mission is such a good idea.
@@mitseraffej5812 We should not do science because of right wing conspiracy theorists that lie about viruses?
"Don't Look Up" may as well be a documentary.
YES YES YES.
If nothing else, Canada needs to claim Enceladus for future generations of Curling, Skating, Hockey and maybe even some Toboggining!
But I'm also cool with searching for life. :)
Also, a huge shout-out/RIP to Cassini, what a legendary interplanetary probe!
😂🇨🇦🍁 Blame Canada!
Ice fishing
Nuke Canada
not to mention using all that ice to put out fires...
Thanks to Dr Seaton for taking the time, love the enthusiasm from everyone here, as always, super interesting, thanks folks.
Agreed 👍👍👍
Are the surfaces around these vents domed? A dome rising and curving and fracturing above a high pressure water reservoir would produce escape routes for the water
Great interview. Aside from Enceladus, Dr. Seaton provided great information, a crash course of sorts, in the mechanics and intricacies of sending space probes. Thank you Fraser for conducting a most informative interview. You guys are the greatest.
Hi Fraser. Regarding Enceladus, I would start sending letters and emails to NASA simply asking 'Are we there yet?', 'Are we there yet?...'. The key is to be relentless! Cheers.
I guess they would use radar since thye already scan the surface under Greenlands glaciers and in 10 years time tech is 10 times greater
Concerning Enceladus sample return you might be interested in ESA's proposed "Icy Moon Sample Return" - Inspirator. There is no fixed destination yet, so they might very well choose Enceladus.
The science interviews are the best thing on this channel
Thankyou Dr Marshall for your time. A very Humble and definitely a better class of generation that can atleast say the ( Life) word. Very greatfull to listen to this conversation. Thankyou all.🇦🇺👍🌍
Excellent interview. Passing it on to my oldest daughter in hopes that someday she could get involved.
What does she do!?!?
@@ChemEDan - She can't tell me anything about it. PhD in biology.
To *both* Enceladuses?
I kid, but as the Cassini image processing specialist during 2003-2008, I can tell you a little known fact: when we first made the spectacular "In Saturn's Shadow" pano image stitched from 160+ raw image files, Enceladus appeared twice. It took so long for Cassini to aim and snap all those images, a couple hours or whatever it was, to take as I recall five rows and eleven columns (minus corners) of WAC raw images to cover the whole scene. With Cassini and Enceladus orbiting during that time, Enceladus appeared once in one row and column and then again later in another. We had to wipe out one of them so the image would make sense, as if taken all at one time.
For any future Cassini II mission, or a dedicated Enceladus mission, please put on a hi-res full color camera with gimbals instead of bolting it straight to the chassis, so we can expose images faster and we won't have to merge separate R, G, B raw images!
42:42 heartbreaking honestly. How can we speed these things up?
Try drugs.
i get so excited when i hear talks of Enceladus there is life there.
I can't wait to find out.
I like this guy. He's one of the best interviews you've had.
Hi Fraser, each time I see one of these interviews I can't help but wonder how an operational SX Starship with 200T LEO lift capacity at some reasonable cost of $200M or so would compress these timelines. You could get enough delta V to make a more direct flight with a deceleration stage and put 10 tons or so in orbit. I think we're close enough to this reality planetary scientists should be actively planning for it.
It would be a total game changer. We just need Starship to work.
Yeah, even a Starship with a non reusable second stage would be an awesome asset.
what an AWESOME interview !!! thank you both !
Hi Fraser… I appreciate all your hard work. Thanks for these interviews 👍👍👍
Ooooh, As an ex grit-blaster, and ecologist yet imagining constant (near constant) plumes of high velocity ice particles I am strangely reminded of mako sharks and sea turtles visiting certain reefs in order to take part of a ritual cleaning process. As such, some time in the future, perhaps we could use the icy blasts from Enceladus to clean out future craft of space analogous hull fouling. A quick pass through one of these icy jets are sure to rid your General Products 2 hull of any hitchhiking space barnacles.
Jus' sayin'
This must the best summer hiatus ever! 🙃
It doesn't even feel like a hiatus...
When there's such an unknown potential for "life", sample return is so important. The Japanese have proved the concept for asteroids, sampling a space geiser is different.
To my mind having sample return and sending a somewhat cheaper instrument set on the orbiter would be a better use of funds.
'We Must Go Back To Enceladus!' sounds like traditionially troubled third novel until you listen to Dr. Seaton. Thanks to you both.
I absolutely LOVE this content. Well done.
Spot on… imagine if the global leaders could divert the resources for war to the exploitation of the solar system
Great interview Fraser, as always, and great interviewee
Your level of scientific sophistication is very evident in this interview. It’s like you’re the interviewee Fraser.
I love this❤. More astrobiology like this video Fraser. Thanks
What a handsome and knowledgeable guy and a fantastic interview-we must go back to Enceladus!!
When you are getting more toward the pointy end of life and you hear how long it will take to get answers from such a fabulous MUST DO mission, it's crushing to realise you may no longer be around to find out the results ugh! That hurts! I always felt sad for Carl Sagan passing before he was able to see the results of the Cassini mission.
Never thought of Carl Sagan missing Cassini! In the same boat here - it'd be nice to live to see the discovery of extraterrestrial life, or the perfection of fusion power, or even the detection of alien civilizations....
Hell, I'd settle for some indication that we're gonna get past our various ecological disasters like climate change, etc.
But unless we invent immortality, I guess we're stuck with the proverbial four score and ten, plus or minus a bit. ;*[}
Cheers....
@@stevengill1736 Guess we'll have to opt for re-entry to find out huh? ;)
Great guest, very iinteresting subject. Also space nerds start planning for a future where you can launch fully loaded semi trailers to orbit on daily basis with fraction of the cost of a regular launch today. Size and weight simply will become a non-issue. You can refuel a starship on orbit and do a full launch to where-ever. Put a nuclear power plant on board. Think big.
Sound great. Hurry up Elon.
NASA: *Lands paper bag on Enceladus*
Microbes: 👀 There sandwiches in there?
The E-ring around Saturn is from the geysers on Enceladus so they must have been going for quite some time. They can have been going for a really long time, someone calculated that if they have been active for the age of the solar system they would have ejected 10% of Enceladus's mass.
I'd want a mass spectrometer, X-ray crystallography, as well as optical microscopy as instruments.
Awesome. On to Encelides 🚀
supergood pod, as always
just recently had to ditch a space pod I had been listening to, so I'm glad I found a better replacement
I'm glad you're enjoying it.
This was a great conversation to listen too. Thank you both.
Yes, we need to go back. I can say that before I have watched the video 🙂
10 year round trip with sample return please!
Fraser Cain is the best space journalist I know!
Aww, thanks!
Thanks!
Great upload, interesting guy, and I learned a bit more about Enceladus, too. I knew an engineer I worked with at LockMart that went over to the cape and did some sensor work, don't remember what it was specifically, but it was a camera at some frequency. The program he worked with me was a FLIR, so maybe that realm. He said it was really foreskin of technology level stuff.
Foreskin of technology?
Surely the forefront of technology?
LOL - lockmart - sounds more like a padlock store than an aerospace giant. I salute your sense of humor.
One of the instruments on board should be a plain old microscope so we can get a good look at what's in the water.
what kind of water pressure would we find in the underground oceans in Enceladus? Also, once StarShip gets going, the costs should come WAY down.
Low gravity = low pressure
On earth, evey 100 meters of ice adds 1Mpa of pressure, or 10 atm. On that moon, divide that by how much gravity is weaker there, or about 90. So 1atm pressure there would be at the depth of 900 meters. Submarine there at 4000 meter depth from surface would only experience 4.5 atm pressure. If I did not mess something up there ...
edit: 45 atm to 4.5 atm
Like @@2ebarman says - it's just a direct function of how thick the ice is from the part of the ocean the plume is coming from. If the ice was completely impenetrable, volcanic heating could increase that pressure significantly - but whenever all these huge plumes are active, it's likely that all the excess pressure is released almost completely. So in that case it's just the usual pressure equation you would use for our atmosphere and oceans.
1.1 billion to land a dry paper bag . . . I kinda love that description
@@2ebarman
Imagine what diving there would be like? You could go down hundreds of feet w/o special equipment! That is, IF there's liquid water under the surface....could there even be places where there's shallows for reefs to form?
Unlikely, but would make a great science fiction theme.... here's hoping we live to see the day!
Could we send a microscope and directly image a sample? I want pictures of Enceladean amoeba swimming around!
My thoughts exactly. I don't think they've even sent one to mars
are you willing to pay for it?
@@australien6611 There is MAHLI on the Curiosity rover. That's probably the closest thing to a microscope on any planetary science mission.
One of my favorites so far ! I agree I think your enthusiasm is infectious @MarshallSeaton ! Thanks for putting this together Fraser 🙌🏼
37:09 Solar panels, in combination with a solar sail, could work great at those distances. Once in orbit, re-shape the sail to focus sunlight on a much more sonveniently-sized solar panel!
Question: how much water did Enceladus lose over time through its plumes? Was Enceladus larger in the past because of losing this material? And could this influence salinity over time? I'm wondering about life's chances in an ocean that's slowly schrinking this way, and could conditions have been much better in the past?
Great interview!!
It takes far more than just water to come up with information and then set it up in a code, and create molecular machines to read the code, understand and follow its instructions , and other molecular machines to repair the code when is needs repair. It takes a designing mind.
Put your hand into those plumes, it gets SHREDDED; ANNIHILATED.
As good a reason as any other said in this video: Enceladus (and also Europa) likely provided a very stable, protected environment for billions of years.
Gasped at the "900Km/s", saw it corrected in another comment, please pin that or someting, otherwise people will be gravely misinformed. I really recoiled at that and figured that cant be right.
Otherwise a great interview! *Thumbs up*!
From a science source:
"Our results confirm a mixture of both low and high Mach gas emission from Enceladus' surface tiger stripes, with gas accelerated as fast as Mach 10(3.43Km/s) before escaping the surface."
-PMC5610430 (Enceladus Plume Structure and Time Variability: Comparison of Cassini Observations)
I heard meters per second
Thank you both so much for the interview! may i ask a distantly related question to Enceladus: has there any observation been taken to the region where Cassini-Huygens droped into Saturn?
I have an idea for how to test for life in the water at Enceladus ! Here goes, we send out a probe, maybe one that piggybacks on another mission to cut down launch cost's, it uses gravity assist and and ion drive to get to the moon, inserts itself into a pre-determined orbit. The orbit takes the probe through the upper plume of the ejected water ice particles, as the probe travels through this zone, on the underside of the probe that is facing the plume, it has a one meter square area of a hydrophilic film, that is on rollers at each end, like a cyclic conveyor. The ice particles adhere to this film, then , a microscope scans the film going left to right as the film is slowly rolled forward, much like how a printer head works, this way the microscope can inspect a lot of potential sample size. If nothing is found, then we clean or discard the film and try another plume at a different location. This way, we don't have to touch down etc. and most of the technology for such a mission already exists, cost's could be quite low, so , comments ?
You're speaking my language! Why are we so focused on finding out if Mars once had life and not going full-speed to sample icy moon plumes to see if anything is living there now??? You're even discussing sample returns which has to be the holy grail. Is there anything we can do to nudge this along?
Geezus we need fusion spacecraft..and fusion in general I suppose. This 12 year transit stuff is like using a fax machine. Genuinely a little frustrating lol
Question: Lifeforms around thermal vents under the oceans on earth were born and evolved there or just adapted to live there but born and evolved elsewhere (closer to the surface) ? That makes some difference in the probability to find life on enceladus I guess...
We could have put a little Enceladus orbiter on the dragonfly mission, put a life gas spectrum analyzer with a dust detector ete, to capture and test those waters, it didn't after to be an expensive mission
Does Europa vent water into space as well? Why is Enceladus considered a more important target?
Nevermind, just saw him talk about Europa. :0)
1) Are there any ideas as to why the plume on Enceladus is at a pole as opposed to anywhere else on the body ?
2) They said the plume was around at least since a Voyager fly by .......So what happens besides great disappointment if by the time a mission is put together and gets to this moon the plume stops ? I suppose there would still be remnants in the area around the moon and in the rings ...Will this mission be able to cope with this possibility ?
One of my favorite topic in astronomy currently *grabs pop corn*
2050... That's very sad! I'm getting too old!
Is the plume powerful enough to penetrate a sheetmetal skin?
My thinking here is build a surface vessel that can collect a pool of vapor in an indoor enclosure with conditions that would allow life to thrive.
Question, in time won't all that water under the crust technically run out?
So, if we discard the gravity assist path we usually use for low mass missions like this one, and instead send an unmanned Starship crammed with literal tons of cool equipment, refueled in LEO and equipped with an ion tractor, how soon could we get to Satrun's moons?
I know, I know. Not a question for a chemist. Oh, well.
Enjoyed the interview anyway!
Lol I just realized your voice sounds exactly like SBF's. Listening on autoplay while I'm working and I'm like 'why in the heck is sbf talking about planets??' ☺️
The crypto guy? Wow, I haven't heard that one yet. 😀
If we discover there’s no life on Enceladus then I advocate for artificial transpermia meaning we taking microbes there to evolve on their own
Could they hitch a ride on Dragonfly? They would have to up the mass budget, but by then, you'll get Starship flights for pretty cheap I'd guess.
I don't think I'm going to make it to 2050. I should probably stop watching videos like this.
As far as solar power out around jupiters orbit i dont tend to hear the idea of lightweight reflectors to concentrate solar to a solar array. Am i missing something?
Dang, so minimum 25 years before we find out more about Enceladus.
Oh boy... I've just started this video and I suspect we're going to hear all about how Fraser left his keys behind on Enceladus...
I mean, if we make the journey...
He seems to have a habitat for a small furry alien beside him 🐱
I wonder what tesco will label and sell this water as? And what price?
3:09 900km/s? when asteroids typically got speeds between 10 and 20km/s im very sceptic about that one
thats like 0.3% of the speed of light
also cant be the Individual gas molecules since hydrogen would need to be at 3 billion kelvin to have that average speed
If there are deeper oceans on Enceladus compared to Earth , i wonder how water pressure would work on a world with way less gravity.
I heard that the water pressure at that depth is too heavy for life to survive.
Now i have a smart way to live for ever, simply find some material that slow down the speed of light to a halt, then incapsulate yourself in the material and make some agreement with someone to knock on the material when it is suitable to get out, bring with you ordinary IKEA furnitures, posters of Mily Cyros etc, and when you come out some 1.000 years later, sell it as antiques and be insanely rich
mmmm enchaladas
Perhaps we could get a better idea of how old the plumes on Enceladus are by studying the ring that it's creating.
Presumably, if you got a number for the amount of mass Enceladus has lost, and a number for the rate of mass that's currently being lost, that would place enough constraints to get a good estimate.
Fraser, even if submarinal vents are episodal we know from Antarctica and elsewhere that relatively simple organisms can pop back to 'life', possibly continuing whatever they had previously been doing once their environment warms up again, so I suggest cycles of freezing and venting should not be considered a show stopper. Also, although spectra and chemical analysis are necessitated for multiple reasons, ultimately what humanity is looking for is something that resembles cellular life as can be seen under a old fashion microscope; and I expect old fashion microscopes can fit inside a cubic centimetre these days. Sure signs of life might be sparse but the ejected water plums might just as easily be thick with it; I would not want any return mission that does not include an attempt to capture and examine including at least three scales of microphotography say 1mm across, 10µm across, and 100nm across; illuminate the samples with a choice of LEDs and very little would escape a probe's examination.
NASA and agencies like JPL need to leverage economies of scale. Create a common satellite design that could then be a case of bolt-on instrumentation. Once they can get the cost of the main vehicle down consistently they can then leverage a launch provider like Spacex who in turn will get economies of scale for launching falcon heavy more often. Jensen from NVidia said it perfectly, "the more you spend the more you save".
It always seems like there's a lack of interest in the value of visual evidence. Have there been any attempts to look at samples that have a chance of containing life anywhere in the solar system using a microscope with the resolution necessary to observe bacterial life?
If there are places that NASA thinks has life. Are there elements that can stall other groups missions until they come first?
Your hand would be shredded by essentially a 9km/s sand blaster, you would feel it.
Hi everyone, what would be the best government agency to plea for larger budgets for these NASA missions and/or a larger budget for NASA in general?
Congress controls the purse strings. The Planetary Society does a lot of advocacy work and one day a year a lot of members visit Congress to talk space with them.
Bravissimo!
Gosh I wish we had launch options to get larger scientific payloads there faster and cheaper...
Enceladians must be tough, very tough (much more than tardigrades) in order to be able to survive in the high water/vapor pressure & temperature of the interior ocean.
If NASA or the ESA wants to hire me to design an optical space microscope I am all for it!
(people only hire us for oceanographic equipment)
Imagine space zooplankton
I just wish we could go everywhere would be great. But back to reality Going to a moon spraying stuff into space, let’s go now ! Asap
I’m counting on salinity causing a differential.
Starship solves all problems they spoke about
It just needs to work.
@@frasercain Off-topic, Please see the other comments on the grave misspoken speeds of vapor plumes. Max c.a 3.4Km/s according to Wiki, Marshall has commented about this in another place in the comment thread already. Also, see my other comment.
I dated a women for 5yrs in the early 00s. Boy, could she cook delicious enceladus (spelling?). I miss the dinners.
Sirling RTG engine!
Send a probe that will AXE and answer the serious questions.
Someone who plays Delta V, of course we need to go to Enceladus! How else will we be able to affordably mine Saturn's ringroids?
Could a mission reach Enceladus _significantly_ sooner than 2046 if it could launch from the moon?
Well sure... if we had factories and a spaceport on the moon? So sadly, 2046 is probably as good as we're gonna get 😔 at least if we don't spend like a 100 times more on the mission than our space agencies can afford.
Could be one way to start the trip with a lot more fuel and propellant than if you have to do a single shot from Earth. Another way would be to refuel while in Earth orbit
For this kind of mission, it won't make a difference where it's launched from. The engine used and how much Delta-v we can give it will make ALL the difference tho. Put it on a powerful ion drive and you can get it there orders of magnitude faster.
In perspective... For how long can Enceladus keep these geysers?
We don't know if they've always been present or they start and stop.
@@frasercain Thanks for your answer. These are interesting times.
Anybody else come here looking for a return to enchiladas for breakfast?
Enceladus is the best moon. That's an objective scientific fact.
No argument here.
Wrong. Luna is the best moon because we wouldn't exist without it. Titan is more interesting chemically/ geologically. Ganymede and Europa would be colonized before Enceladus. But for orbital only missions, yes Enceladus is the best target.
When we find life on another planet/moon it's going to be a short 'OooohAaaah' and then 'Well, we were kinda sure there was going to be life elsewhere. Now we just have to figure out if it originated there or arrived there through panspermia'. Honestly, even if it originated 'there' ... what difference would that make? It originated 'somewhere' and got here on Earth, why wouldn't it elsewhere?!
Jupiter has a large magnetic field
Space probes move at a high velolicty through Jupiter's magentic field.
Wires moving through a magnetic field generate current.
Why can't we power Jupiter space probes using Jupiters magnetic fields and electrical wires to charge a battery?
Good interview on Your part, it shows that you prepared your questions properly, but unfortunately I learned nothing new nor gain any knowledge from Dr Seaton's answers...
You might already know too much about the topic.
@frasercain My knowledge is months if not years old and I haven't really pay close attention to new papers.. I guess I expected something more than "the usual" from someone who is close to the topic.
To be fair, I somehow missed the research showing that Europa's plumes might not originate from the subsurface ocean itself, so there's at least that ;)
The point of the interview was to talk about a mission that could fly to Enceladus sooner than the current schedule. How can we go sooner?
now that starship heavy could well be a viable option for launches soon i s there any merit in , instead of sending one satellite/probe to a place like enceladus with all the science equiptment onboard which means a failure of the craft destroys all hope .....or having the extra payload space and the reduction in cost to get your science into space, could we not build multiple satellite's each one dedicated to each task........surely without the weightproblems as it would all be shared out could we send send better equipment out to do the science?
also it might help on the build aswell i have heard many times where a satellite/probe has been delayed because one instrument is not functioning properly.....you would at least be able to send out most of the science equiptment and send the faulty stuff on a later date as i believe we will not be short of launches for the deployment of all the backdated stuff waiting to be sent out or built lol