This motor ABSOLUTELY CRUSHES it!!
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- Electric Bike motor POWER TEST!! The Cheap Chinese Electric Mountain Bike got a new Bafang M500 Motor upgrade! This powerful ebike motor is rated at 95Nm, it's time to see if this new powerful drive unit can beat the Bosch Gen 4 Motor in a short but very steep climb.
The CHEEB is now for sale!! Its got a huge 840Wh battery and a load of other cool parts. Check my ebay listing as soon as the vid is live, and all of the proceeds from the bike sale are being donated to Trash Free Trails. Check out their mission here: www.trashfreetrails.org/
EBAY LISTING: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254954280630
TRASH FREE TRAILS: www.trashfreetrails.org/
Follow Me On Instagram: / robridesemtb
Join me on the worlds best EMTB Community: www.emtbforums.com
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eBay link for the CHEEB bit.ly/3vfaG0M - all of the proceeds from the bike sale are being donated to Trash Free Trails. Check out their mission here www.trashfreetrails.org
Rob you have a link for the bafang motor??
Rob, i just got my new nox xc trail with the Sachs rs motor with 112 Nm at low cadence .
i have a cube with a bosch cx and was convinced it was the king of climbers until ,,,,, . i took the sachs up the same steep hills i usually ride and was traveling twice as fast at half the cadence in the third assist level ( it has four ).
The sachs is insanely powerful and very well built . it's heavy with metal gears and casing . built to last .
So Rob, when will you fit the CHEEB with the new EU rated Bafang M600S developed in cooperation with Bafang and ELIFE Norway 😀 supposed to have 115nm!
Is the bike still available,,do you any freys e bike. Or how bout a long range daul battery 1000 to 1500 bafang ultra emtb call me interested in buying a mountain e bike long range with 160 torque , 27 inch or 29 inches rims.....18 inch 19inch frame,,,,,,asap. 6107153704 chris
Soo?? What did it sell for?
Trash free trails would entail nuking the SOBs that litter in the first place!! I am near 60 and can honestly say I have never littered in my entire life. Accidental when the wind catches a scrap and you just can't catch it, not enough to fill your sock. It sickens me to hike or bike in the beautiful outdoors and see everything from beer cans to coffee cups to wrappers of every sort.
Pack it In, Pack it Out....No excuses!!!
Bafang owner myself. Love the honesty. Not a scripted piece to prove a point, just honest journalism. Keep up the great work!
Bosch is posh
how hard to build your own bike?)
Thanks Bafang I knew you would come through!!
On ya Rob for testing and riding everything
I have this motor in my Cannondale Neo Lefty 3 and I agree, it's a beast. Tons of power in turbo.
I think its something to do with the seat tube angle. Chinese carbon frames have a fairly slack seat tube angle. That is why whenever I borrow my friends ebike with exactly the same motor. I always move the seat forward to steepen the seat tube angle which helps smoothen up the climb.
Thanks Rob - I appreciate the honesty. Personally I like home builds. I accept that probably the Bosch motor is the best in class, but then look at the cost!!. It also occurs to me that when the warranty runs out the Bafang can be repaired by the user, not so Bosch as they are sealed units I believe?. So how would you think the Bafang stacks up against Shimano, Yamaha & Brose I wonder
Rob....appreciate all you do on your channel. Man, you had me there for a moment, then I realized you were missing some very important variables. 42t 10spd vs 52t 12spd rear cassette and probably even more unfair in the front. The reality is battery voltage on the bafang is a game-changer. My Ultra motor is great at 48v, but is a whole different beast at 52v. My personal 52v Juggernaut Ultra FS, even with the Manitou mastodon and DT swiss BR2250 upgrades is half the cost of the Trek Rail. Yes it's 18lbs heavier, but it also has 4.8" surley tires, 160nm of torque, floats on snow and sand, climbs up a tree, and never ceases to bring smiles to myself or anyone that tries it for 5 minutes. Keep the snobby bosch, I guess I'm just bike trash.😁🤣
Bro it’s a bike. Don’t take it personally.
You are 100% correct. To the people who have never driven it, Bafang is a beast. Get yourself a M560, or a M620 and you’re golden. I’m not a fan of companies limiting and restricting their products. So keep your snobby Bosch indeed!
Bosch power 💪. The bafang and whole cheeb setup definitely has appeal though, great option to have.
Great update - Leaves me with two key questions :
1: Is this improved motor available to buy?
2 : If this improved motor is available to buy, how do you distinguish from the older motor before purchase?
Price?
Most Bosch motors are on ready to buy ebikes they are not kits and to buy a bosch usually used with someone with a damsged cycle, Bafang motors are available to build your own eBike and cost a fraction of the price of a Bosch motor built eBike.
The model. Old was like an m410, new is a m500
I understand this is a straight torque test but it would be great to know how the motor efficiency stacks up. Those Watt Hours in our battaries are heavy and dictate how long our day out is, for me I want to know I'm getting the most out of it, not just getting max power at any point. I only want enough power and good/best efficiency. If the Bafang is using more juice and being less powerful thats bad, but if its almost keeping up and using significantly less juice then brilliant.
Isn't electric motor efficiency generally very good?
For me the more juice I'm pumping out the bigger my smile is, so I squirt all my juice in big loads. God that sounds so wrong.
Good job Rob your channel always improves , greetings from Spain
Great creative content, Love the 1812 overture when the bafang made it. Informative and entertaining
it would be interesting to see a motor test between flyon, sachs and the bosch. that's 120 vs 110 vs 95Nm based not just on hill climbs but weight to see a timed trail run to gauge agility
Bosch is actually only 85nm not 95
Great job on the builds. Very nice.
Can’t wait to put one of these together in the future when they get better.
This was absolutely stunning video!!! Great edit, great music, great content. Wow…..
When I was younger I had a Suzuki RM125 two stroke. What a monster... it screamed. 6 spd, clutch. You were actually involved with the machine and felt like you were part of it. There has been something lost with these eBikes where you just sit on them and turn the grip. Don't get me wrong... I have my collection of MTBs and have ridden my share of eBikes but... I only wish others could experience the thrill of riding a real two stroke dirt bike as I'm sure many here haven't. The power and the way its put to the ground has to be felt.
Subbed my friend... keep them coming!
🚲
Two stroke noise irritates the hell out of me! is it so hard for you to conceive of the notion that SOME or even many of us LIKE silence?
I have a 2020 Trek Rail 9.7. Bosch gen 4 motor. I can attest to how good this motor is. There is a very steep uphill with dips, ruts and turns where I ride (Lake Geneva Zip lines). It's about 150 feet long I'd guess and quite steep. I can put this bike on turbo and make it no problem. Just walking up this grade is very difficult. When the reviews say this motor is good, this is no joke. It's REALLY good.
Now I wanna see the EP8 on that climb...
Excellent video and loved the music hahaha. I was rooting for the bosch for nothing other than to justify the ludicrous money I forked out on my Trek.
Same.
1812 Overture I believe
I didn't see that coming, I figured you were going to bump to the m600.( would love to see the bafang m600 compete against the Bosch gen/4 ).
And of course another great video. Thank you
Me too
Get it done rob!!!
me to have a bafang 120 m600 hardtail best ...for me (momas upgrated over all veels and demper.nise and kost little.
Nice one Rob👍 good luck with the sale 🤞
Great honest opinion Rob and backing a good cause
Nice to know I chose a good motor (Bosch) even though its not user configurable. I would have liked an eco- and eco+ as well as eco which would be great for flat(ish) trails and wind resistance/assistance. Otherwise trail and emtb are excellent adaptive modes and turbo, though a bit snatchy, will get me up anything.
I am about to buy a bike with the Bosch motor. Have you defeated the speed limiter?
it is user configurable, but you have to install the Nyon control unit to do it
Great work Rob. Love the cheebbb series
i have never run out of power on a climb with the Brose. When it gets to vertical the front lifts up or the wheel spins out. the motor isnt the failure point.
Hey rob logan here. Well done ...already at 2750 for a great 👍 cause
I wish you still had the CHEEB so that the hill climb could be retested. Based on your build video and photos on emtb, it looks like the Trek Rail 5 had a gearing advantage of anywhere from 9% to 13%... No wonder it beat out the CHEEB/Bafang.
Hey Rob thanks for another great video:) On the video the Cheeb looks to be much longer than the Trek, ie the Trek looks to be a better bike for climbing just from a geometry point of view? If you had both motors on the same bike do you feel the Bosch would still win out?
on a straight climb longer is better. look at hill climb motorbikes
So Chinese Nm are like Chinese lumens for lights🤔
Lmao🤣 got one of those lights rated at 2000lumen and it barely let's me see a meter ahead.
Newton Meters ?
@@bradburdett4491 yes I was comparing how some Chinese brands rate their lights at huge lumen ratings (hence the "Chinese lumens") and maybe there's a Chinese Newton Meter as they may also be exaggerated
@@streddaz probably it's because of a powercurve, where the bfang isn't good at low speeds while the bosh is...just try to guess
Nm are not power. All that matters in the end is mechanical power, measured in Watts. Nm at the wheel can be levered with gearing. it seems the M500 has a 15A controller @43V that is slightly less power than the bosch cx (36V 20A). I don't know how many amps the 48v bafang controller can pull, but most likely less than 15A, since the motor can only handle a certain amount of power before overheating.
Well done, Thanks!
Cool Tschaikowsky 1812 one of my favorite Classics
As a Bafang M620 and Bosch Gen 4. owner I can point out a few facts: M600 is the lowest spec'd Bafang you should consider Watt-wise. 250W Bafang motors are better only if you're DIY'ing your entire build. Compared to the M500 Bosch Gen 4. is much quieter, draws less power and has a much more soft assistance whilst still having more real world power. These Bafang motors are a great choice but only if you want to go over 250W and are able to DIY and know how to service these motors. Many countries have already/are legalizing 1000W motors. M620 is a good choice on that respect.
Nice
Thanks for the video 👍
It's great to see someone finally do a legit hill comparison. It would be great to see the EP8 and Bafang Ultra with Archon X1 (Watt Wagons) controller. EP8 won't do much but that Archon is rated at 160 Nm. Hope the next CHEEB uses one of those!!!
ep8 nothing special, bosch g4 will eat it on hills
So it seemed to me that the Bafang bike could not climb something that a regular bike could do in short gear. I climb stuff like that all the time, just at the limit of traction and balance. Did I miss something?
Personally I'm more interested into comparing BBSHD versus Archon engine. Both seem to produce 160nm from engine. Gear ratio must be usable for climbing and high speed on road.
great info, thanks for the share, is there a 26" wheel CHEEB frame?
Nice video Rob, interesting topic
Fab video thanks - an honest and true reflection more NM's doesnt always mean better motor
Great video and a great cause 👍
Hi. Great vid. Where did you purchase the vomponents to make the bafang bike. Items like the frame and motor.
Many thanks
Hey Rob Rides Emtb! Thank you for the nice motor test video! Were both bikes in the exact same gear ratio? Ride ride ride!
Nice one Rob... I have the m600 on my CHEEB and must admit yet to be disappointed... (Not in the UK BTW)... It keeps up with all the expensive bikes on the trails and that's enough for me..
Nikoi that’s awesome to hear, I’ve ordered a bike to be built with m600 and super excited, it’s still hard to find many solid reviews anywhere...
@@carsandotherstuffguy5300 Check out "electric biker review" if you haven't already. I also read a bit about the motor on Luna cycles X1 which had lots of vids and information to help make my decision...czcams.com/video/X2IPtda_LFo/video.html
@@carsandotherstuffguy5300 I have an m600 X1 Luna with Ludicrous mod....absolutely love the X1 and I don't even like bicycles.
Back to the drawing board for Bafang. My biggest concern is longevity. Motor drives are no cheap and I wouldn’t fancy a rebuild or replacement every 2-3yrs. As for trash free trails, the answer is simple. All those using them respect them and take your litter home!
Hi Rob, is there any chance you could share with me what brand of glasses/googles you are wearing when you were on the bikes during the comparison of the two motors ?
Just a quick question: Are the gear ratios the same on both of the bikes? You probably thought of that in trying to compare the motors, but if they aren't, ie the bikes don't have the same ring size on the crank, or they don't have the same sprocket size on the casset, then the climb test is comparing apples with oranges.
That was my first thought as well.
Absolutely right
Let the guy from Project Farm test the two!
What about the weight?
He hinted at ratio
Excellent video. Even better rend. Can you please provide full details of the emtb you built. Or advice and guidance. Thank you.
The secret is upping the voltage to arround 50v & patiently searching the web for the punch code to get rid of the rev limit. You see all these mid motors That have 80 or 90nm + are actually a lot stronger than 250w. You see with these motors, torque outputs stay the same regardless of revs (I’m disregarding torque multiplication from gearing, much of which is cancelled out by having a wheel of 26” to 29” anyway), but to get that sort of torque, they’re really motors that will sustain 600 to 800 watts. Then they apply a revlimiter to make sure they won’t sustain more than about 300w - Keeping them close to or plausibly legal while getting the torque figures of a motor twice as powerful. Cheating the speed limiter by moving the speed detector from the wheel to the crank or using a tuning chip may increase speed, but not when you really want it, going up steep hills, which is what e-assistance is all about.
So if you really want to get the best performance you have to get a punch code or a tuner chip that releases the motor from it's built in revlimiter. Also upping the voltage from arround 40v to 50v helps stopping it get to hot as less amps are needed for the same watts.
If you're just doing off road trails why not just buy a full suspension bike around a grand and put a bafang bbshd motor in with 52v battery as I did, hills just ain't no more! ..sure beats messing around screwing every drop of power from a 250w motor!
None of these are close to 250 W. They all put out over 800 W maximum. The Bosch, Brose, and my EU legal Bafang M600s consume over 1 kW at max. But they are somehow still nominal 250W. And Nominal, what ever that means, is the key to keep it legal.
Hey Rob I have a 2018 turbo levo expert carbon. Do you know what size ohlins cool shock fits the bike? Thanks!!
Nice to see reviews that aren't a specialised or canyon.
Nice one rob
Sure, but the Specialized Levo has a Bosch and eats little inclines like thos on this vid.
Where Bosh is a closed system,.so all parts need to be bosh/manufatcter approved to work.If on chip fails ..you need to buy specific expensive parts,lSpecial dealer only software to adjust settings.
Bafang gives you more freedom.Special on bataries and displays,and custom settings.
It almost looked like more initial speed up the hill was higher on the Bosch than the Bafang.
Splendid video, I find answer from this video, thank you.
Love the spray job Rob , wicked that cheers Shane uk 🇬🇧
Really look forward to bafang to build a bike around their motor by themselves and come to this location to have a try.
Thanks for showing, if bike sales keep diminishing a vid on making older bikes more modern and better suspention,ect. Wouldnt be a bad idea. I'm putting a cascade link on levo and mulleting it. I drool over Gen 3, but you can't get one here, and they don't offer the model I want yet.
Like
Class 👏🏻
How does the power of a Bafang motor feel on a 26" a 27.5" and a 29" wheel
600 watts is 600 watts but a larger diameter rear wheel should make a difference Right?
New to this type of bike. Seems the upgrades and motors and technology getting lighter, stronger, smaller rapidly in it's general iinfancy. Since there is a extended wait--I am finding myself content with waiting a year or two for the near-optimal blend of motor and lightness sure to come. Right now the Orbea Rise is on my radar. Thinking I'll just pedal dammit till more evolutionized till then.
I have a bafang M420 no throttle here in usa, had my motor for 19 months and climbed steeper in clines then that. Though I'm not sure of the 500 series or what gear you used to climb and my bike weighs 72lbs....... questions?
I am curious as to the PAS sensor on the Cheeb. If it only has a cadence sensor (power while pedals are moving) while the Bosch has a torque sensor (power while there is force on the pedals), that would explain everything.
💯%
I bought and installed my 750 bafang mid drive. Taking any hill no problem.
I knew I noticed that hill climb from somewhere, you used a TQ motor on it from a previous video. Ended up buying a Haibike Flyon bike after seeing that video, now living on beans n toast for the next few years or so :)
The main thing i am really curious about, is the thing not mentioned. Is this the m500 g522.250 motor or the g520.250 motor? What is the max cadence rpm? For me the high cadence is the main selling point of the bosch motor. How does the bafang compare in this regard?
Hi Rob
Would you like you to do a review with my Dengfu e10 with m600 motor against your trek and new spes s works ,have a trip up to peaks it’s on my doorstep
cheers john
would it still be cheaper than the new Polygons? for the same(within reason) specs
Nicely done. Just did my very first E Bike video on my channel. I love this shiite.
The Cheeb had a 1x10 if I recall correctly from the build. What did the trek w/ the Bosch Gen 4 have for rear cassette (gears). Are the front sprockets on ea. motor the same # of teeth? Point being that the gearing ratio has an impact on the ability for the bike to get up the incline.. really need an apples ot apples comparison. Also should factor in weight of the two bikes.
Rob, I thought the Bosch Gen 4 version of the CX was a 750w output motor though, could explain why it seems to get up the hill faster than the Befang M500 500w system. I know that the motor's torque is what drives the thing, but power delivery, wouldn't that also play a factor in the two compared? I mean it's a 250w difference between the two, which would equate to a bit more power delivered to the rear wheel and maybe the torque curve is different in a larger motor. I mean it's a good comparison.. pricewise they are roughly the same, but power comparison, they are not. And I would think the Bosch would out preform the Befang anyways because Bosch had been building small torquey motors in drills for decades, SO I wouldn't be surprised the Bosch corporation has fine tuned this motor over the years. I guess it all boils down to "you get what you paid for" as you can't expect a Ferrari performance for under 1k these days w/o some DIY and recycled parts.
While on the topic of motors. I have a Commencal meta power and was trying to remove the Shimano e8000 motor so I could feed a new wire. I released all the 6 bolts but the motor wouldn’t drop out. After some tapping with a plastic hammer I was able to move it enough to feed the wire. Is this normal and why wouldn’t the motor just drop out. I also had to tap it back into place. Thx Steve
Just a thought, I remember you fitting a 10speed to the cheeb, isn't the trek a 12 speed, surely gearing is going to affect performance?
Indeed, just what I was thinking and there is the weight of the two bikes to compare. It's not all about the motor.
Also the model and pressure of the tyres.
I have eagle 12 speed on my DengFu with a Bafang M600. That climb he did is a breeze on my bike. I do way longer and steep climbs than the climb in the video. The M600 is the way to go for this frame. And having that giant pie plate cog on the eagle cassette is also the way to go for very steep climbs.
@@EL34XYZ not everyone wants to own essentially a moped with cranks. Also with high wattage eats the battery quite fast. Not to forget heavy duty chains. Foes it have good shifting protection? Here in europe the m500 might be good choice if u want reqular emtb.
@@viljosavolainen2286 You are spewing out garbage. The Luna X1 is an Ebike, not a moped.
bro, is the front hub motor better value for money n with less maintenance problems than a mid n rear hub one ...
Is it true that the internal gear or belt in the mid hub motor will wear faster n the external bicycle gear will also wear faster when a mid hub motor is used ..
Top Rob!
Awesome editing with the 1812 Overture.
Yep, can you make a vid now with EP8 and maybe some others up that same hill!
See if you can get hold of the M600s motor (EU legal special version of the M600) It will beat or match the Bosch motor.
I have almost the same setup with the same frame but the M600s motor. I've never seen a hill where I have any trouble getting up unless I loose grip og flip the bike over.
great vid buddy
What about the gearing where they both identical
greetings. Is there a "standard frame" for these motors? Anything specific to look out for such as a "size 889 widget sprocket!" or whatever?
I'd like to have a go at doing a self-build in the spring, so doing some resarch at the moment.
did you ever figure this question out?
@@al-du6lb no. still in the dark. will review it all in the spring, assuming bastard bastard covid bastard death covid variant death corona etc
@@SimonEarly I've been looking all over the place and info is truly lacking. These chinese sites give almost no info it's amazing. If you remember come back and find me if you figure this all out, lol.
Hello @Rob Rides EMTB I noticed you swapped the Zeb for a Lyrik (both ultimate). What are your thought ? My bike came with a Zeb but i'm a light 62kg rider and i wonder if the Zeb is not overbuilt for my body and the kind of riding i do. I motsly never ride lift trail but more enduro tracks. On the other hand i'm happy with the Zeb (i have a Select Charger), very smooth and i don't feel like the extra weight really remove performance from the bike. It's not like there is a huge difference in weight between Zeb and Lyrik.
Also considering the bafang i was a bit surprised by the result. When you said they added turns my intuition was that the motor would have better low end but worse top end (support at speed) but your test was mostly a low end torque test. Weird. I think the Bosch edges thanks to better motor controller. Low speed brushless control is tricky, moreover i would not be surprised those motor are sensorless which make low speed control even harder regardless of the number of windings.
How do we tell the difference between the old and new m500 motor? I’m on the hunt for one of these in UK but looks like I’ll have to get it off Ali Express.
I love the cheap ❤️
Hi Rob
You need to compare with the m600 motor hands down better than any other motor ,I recently built a bafang,brilliant bike apart from a few annoying rattles,is yours the same
Cheers John,
Ye I would love to see a M600 video. But I guess he can't because of it not being eu approved?
@@gavskxf on private land he can fo what he wants.
I'd love to see the m600 and the m620 tested by him for an honest opinion.
And it's not just about power but also I'm interested in the finess of the delivery.
@@FlyingFun. I happen to have bikes with both those motors. They are great climbers, none of that restricted to 250w euro nonsense.
@@stevenleslie8557 I have a m620 in s Frey ex and it is great.
I have a dd 1000w hub drive too which is faster on the flat but obviously doesnt compare off road and hills against the m620.
@@FlyingFun. what does your M620 Frey weigh in at? Thanks
love that childish contented happy smile mate
Have the dreaded crank sensor error on my shimano e8000, it's out of warranty even though it's only done 2500miles. Can i change to a different motor
Was this an apple to Apple test though? Motor gearing, bike gearing etc.
The Trek is a 29-er, right? What's your opinion (given that you seem to prefer a mullet) - does that have a role in better climbing abilities vs the 27.5" rear on the CHEEB?
Hey Great Video but how can anyone know if theyare buying the newer or older model? I want to buy it, but I am afraid I will order and receive the old model (which I have avoided until now).
m500 36T-46T 27.5
Gen 4 34T-52T 29
So Rob's test is pointless when Bosch equiped bike has about 13% lower gearing?
Same gearing between bikes? My Rail 9 amazes me what it will climb even without using the 50t rear.
What's the sealing like around the crank shaft? Bafang mounts the controller directly to the engine cover, and the seal around the cranshaft is essentially a dust cover. Any idea how well the sealing is on the motor, as water intrusion is the biggest problem for all ebike motors.?
The vague title of the video already made me suspicious that the true winner would be the Bosch in the end. :-D Honestly, i think its really time to take the Bafang M500 into a testlab for some detailed measurements. I suspect that neither the original M500 nor the improved one they send you is actually capable of reaching 95nm of torque. While i admit that Bafang may still be dealing with a poorly written firmware here, i rather suspect that the M500 is actually a 75 to 80 nm motor. I would really like to see how it compares to a Shimano E8000 with 75nm. I have a certain feeling both will be pretty much eye to eye rather than Bafang ending up as the winner. Now im not saying the words "advertisement scam" here just yet. But...... ;-)
Just ordered the Dengfu E06 it was a bit weird making a PayPal purchase of 4.6 grand based on some texts and pictures. I really like the idea of a fat tire high performance ebike.Hope it doesn't disappoint. I bought it based on the cheeb video you posted Rob ! Is the new m500 more powerful than Bafang M620 G510 1000W 48V ? That's what is coming on my EO6
That's it not bad I paid $14,000 for my specialized levo turbo comp
No G510 is Max Torque: 160N.m
Hah after reading about the 14k bike. Mot bad mate
you throttled something from the bafang motor when programming🧐, it would be nice to see how the settings were🤗
Hi rob quick question for you, can you fit that Bafang M500 motor into a regular production E-bike? (like the Trek rail or Specialized Kenevo) Fantastic channel by the way.
No, mounting points and sizing is completely different 👍
Any chance to see you test Bafang Ultra motor bike? :)
Anybody had any water ingress issues with the Shimano e 8000 ? I have a 2019 norco sight transported it in 2 hours of heavy rain and I’m a bit worried, would Moto foam be any good to protect or do these gaps need to be there for cooling ?
What about different geometry/tires of both bikes? In which mode did you test it?
Turbo / highest mode. CHEEB has a big Betty on the rear in 2.6 - grip wasn’t the issue, it was the low down power at low cadence 👍
95 NM
@ rpm
95 continues or
Peak
im thinking putting a bafang e motor mid drive on my Santa Cruz V10 but i dont know how many watts should i buy 750w or 1000w, can a 750watts run my heavy bike?
nice editing - first time viewer!
If Bosch lost it would have been embarrassing. This has shown they are worth paying more for